Please come in if you own a fanatec or T500RS
- Thread starter shaun_ccxr
- 123 comments
- 21,221 views
- 2,069
- Japan / Seattle
I'm not a fan of the feel of the T500 pedals, but it's great to see that those who do like them will soon be getting a braking setup that will allow them to be much more consistent and precise.
Energizerrr
(Banned)
- 1,115
In all honesty $100 for a load cell mod is a little bit too much (especially when Fanatec sells CSR-Es at $150).
mykem
Premium
- 1,260
It's a good option for someone with a T500RS and who happens to play GT5 (ie, because the Fanatec is not an option). Spending $150 on something that isn''t going to work for you is even more of a waste.
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
Hey John, welcome to GTP. 👍
I hope we'll see you around a bit more here in the future as well.
I have a small question. It might have been posted here already I don't know. However the question is a simple one. What is the estimated price point you'll be selling this very nice upgrade for when it's done?
I'd really rather not talk price point -- I'm not here to sell my wares, but don't mind talking about the technical details and posting updates on my progress with the development effort.
I will say that I have also developed a stand-alone adapter for the T500RS pedals, which allows PC users to use the pedals as a stand-alone pedal controller, minus the T500RS wheel -- a lot of PC sim racers already have high-end pedals that they prefer to the T500RS pedals, so for those folks this adapter allows the pedals to be used on other sim racing rigs with other wheels, or it opens up the secondary market to sell the pedals off separately while still keeping the T500RS wheel. My pedal adapter is available through Sim-Sport.net, and they will also eventually carry the load cell mod.
Beyond that, though, as I said, I'm not here to spam the forums with sales info, but I am pretty excited about the load cell mod, and I enjoy sharing my progress with the community, so hopefully technical updates won't violate any forum rules.
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
JohnBodin
Good point. I'll wait then for whenever you will have it finished.
As for the adapter it will be interesting to see what happens to T500 loadcell pedal use versus using CSPs for example.
The only thing missing then is a more proper feel in the gas and clutch pedals. I don't know if that would be an easy mod?
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
I'd also challenge anybody to come up with a marketable load cell option that was a "simple" bolt-on affair which required no modifications to your T500RS pedals and would in no way void your warranty for LESS than $100, while still allowing enough to cover all the necessary up-front R&D, WITHOUT copying someone else's design in order to make it a no-risk proposition.
Load cells aren't cheap. Metal fabrication isn't cheap. Load cell amps, the associated circuitry, and components that make it all directly compatible with the proprietary cable used on the T500RS pedals aren't cheap. The assembly of said parts isn't cheap. Purchasing stock in large enough quantities to pre-assemble multiple units and putting it all together in kit form to fulfill potential orders isn't cheap. Developing easy-to-understand instructions that make it possible for virtually anybody to do a self-installation, regardless of their electrical and mechanical aptitude may not be an expensive endeavor, but it's not dirt simple and it absolutely NEEDS to be done if you plan on distributing multiple kits.
You want to build one for yourself, you might be able to do it for $100, but there's a lot of trial-and-error involved, and the first time you plug it in to test it, it will be YOUR T500RS that you're risking, not mine.
Once my load cell kits make it to market, all of that up-front work will already be done. I'm the one who's purchased a myriad of prototype parts on my own dime, many of which proved to be dead-ends and unusable, and I'm the one who puzzled out the required connections, sourced the final materials and parts, drew up the necessary schematics, built the prototypes, risked my own wheel to test it all, and made it all happen.
I'm the only person in the world that I know of who has a T500RS equipped with a functional load cell.
As I said, I'm not here to talk price point or sell my wares, but don't underestimate what goes into something as "simple" as this until you have done it, and even then, don't compare building a one-off custom job for your own use with building-up and bringing to market a reasonably bulletproof retail solution that you will have to stand behind, quality-wise, because there really is no comparison.
Sorry for the rant, but I can assure you that I've invested well over twice the amount that some people seem to think is "too high" to begin with just to get my first prototype working, and I probably won't be able to ever recover most of that up-front "R&D" money.
</RANT>
- 1,818
- Alberta
- left888
There will always be someone in the crowd who does not understand what goes into R&D and always can do it it cheaper or does not understand the value of doing business. As John mentioned, buying the required parts are expensive.
Personally I am looking forward to the load cell mod, the T500 pedals get a bad rap from many people. With a good working load cell they should be a solid pedal set.
Personally I am looking forward to the load cell mod, the T500 pedals get a bad rap from many people. With a good working load cell they should be a solid pedal set.
- 2,239
- caswellhouse
John, you shouldnt have to defend yourself. Every industry has its people who think manufacturers are making millions of percent profit when they break down cost of component.
I have always been irked by the " there is this amount of money in x product, why am i spending y dollars for it"
Dont take it to heart.
Am not a TM owner either, just undertstand the business world.
I have always been irked by the " there is this amount of money in x product, why am i spending y dollars for it"
Dont take it to heart.
Am not a TM owner either, just undertstand the business world.
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
LOL! Thanks guys -- I appreciate the supportive words. The comment just kind of took me aback a bit, partly because I have been going over my cost figures on what I have invested in my working prototype, as well as trying to nail down pricing for the final "retail" parts. I love the "tinkering/engineering" aspects of this kind of thing, but the "business" aspects DO suck!
- 1,326
- SC
Ya do yourself a favor and dont mention anything about pricing or release dates until you are sure you can meet em, if its one thing i've learned here (i'm guilty of this myself including) is they'll pin ya to those deadlines, beware!!
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
Just to let you all know how the load cell project is doing, my initial T500RS load cell prototype is fully functional and it's working really well -- I can't tell you how amazed I am at what a difference a load cell makes, if you've never experienced one yourself.
I'm including a couple of pictures to give you an idea of what the prototype looks like. Keep in mind that this is my initial prototype. The cabling doesn't reflect the final version, and the bracket was just supposed to be my "rough fit" prototype but even so it still works surprisingly well:
Another view:
So there you have it, folks -- images of the world's first (and only?) T500RS pedals equipped with a functioning load cell.
I'm including a couple of pictures to give you an idea of what the prototype looks like. Keep in mind that this is my initial prototype. The cabling doesn't reflect the final version, and the bracket was just supposed to be my "rough fit" prototype but even so it still works surprisingly well:
Another view:
So there you have it, folks -- images of the world's first (and only?) T500RS pedals equipped with a functioning load cell.
Last edited:
- 638
thx john looks promising.
question: will this load cell kit work if the pedals are inverted in the GT mode?
just asking because it seems your mod is behind the pedal and was wondering if it will fit and not hit the backplate when pedals are in the inverted position.
also do you plan on doing a mod for gas and clutch pedals? it seems the torsion springs for the pedals have a nasty tendency to snap. hoping for something easy to fit and a little more reliable
keep up the good work
cheers
question: will this load cell kit work if the pedals are inverted in the GT mode?
just asking because it seems your mod is behind the pedal and was wondering if it will fit and not hit the backplate when pedals are in the inverted position.
also do you plan on doing a mod for gas and clutch pedals? it seems the torsion springs for the pedals have a nasty tendency to snap. hoping for something easy to fit and a little more reliable
keep up the good work
cheers
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
The load cell mod WILL allow you to use the pedals in either position ("normal" F1 mode or "inverted" GT mode). This was an important consideration to me (as important as maintaining PS3 compatibility). The picture is a bit deceptive, but the pedals can be flipped into either position with no clearance problems for the load cell.
The only mod that I'm considering for the clutch and throttle at the moment is to replace the potentiometers (which can wear out or get "noisy") with hall effect sensors (similar to pots but magnetic fields are used for position sensing, rather than resistive contact). This would NOT be a "simple" mod because it would require removal of the existing pots, which would involve unsoldering and resoldering the existing wires. It would most likely void your warranty, and I don't see an easy way to make a self-install kit that wouldn't require some solder skills, so this would be more of a "specialist" mod to extend the life of your pedals (which it would do almost indefinitely, from an electrical standpoint).
Once I get the load cell project fully off the ground, I may start researching available off-the-shelf spring sources, and if I can find a suitable fit for the torsion springs, I'll at least share that info with everyone. I think finding a replacement spring source may be important, because after all of our two-year warranties expire, we'll all be on our own, because I'm betting Thrustmaster won't provide free replacements on out-of-warranty units.
That said, Thrustmaster WAS legendary for supplying springs on demand for their original pedals even after the warranty expired (those springs were known for frequent spring failures, and TM was great about helping out their customers back then). That was when they were still a small U.S.-based company, prior to being purchased by Guillemot, so I have no idea if Guillemot would allow that same level of out-of-warranty support.
That said, if I do manage to come up with a SUPERIOR custom solution to the torsion springs, I might attempt to make that available as a mod kit.
Thanks!
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
John, on part of the HAL effect sensor mod. Why don't you just provide the cable. That way it won't void warranty as you could just put the stock cable with pots in again and send it back.
Also the newer pedals have the compression springs with the brake having a double spring. So newer pedals already have a solution, it's just the older ones with a problem still.
Also the newer pedals have the compression springs with the brake having a double spring. So newer pedals already have a solution, it's just the older ones with a problem still.
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
That's exactly what I was thinking!
Also the newer pedals have the compression springs with the brake having a double spring. So newer pedals already have a solution, it's just the older ones with a problem still.
True -- but long-term support or lifespan extension for the older pedals would really help a LOT of people who are "stuck" with them (mine are the older pedals, FWIW, so I'm sure I'll be seeking a solution eventually myself! ).
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
I agree. Thrustmaster still denies that there are differences other then firmware in between versions, while we all know better.
Maybe you can use the hole behind the pedals to mount springs with a metal bar. Kinda like the brake mod. Only issue would be travel I reckon. It won't be easy.
The new compression springs are mounted under the pedals with a single screw. I don't remember if that was there on the older pedals. If it isn't then it will probably be a pain to make a solution that doesn't void warranty for the springs.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with all the puzzling and fiddling you have to do still. The current project looks good, although since its a prototype it still looks crude (but no use in making a prototype look nice unless you need to sell the idea. heh).
Maybe you can use the hole behind the pedals to mount springs with a metal bar. Kinda like the brake mod. Only issue would be travel I reckon. It won't be easy.
The new compression springs are mounted under the pedals with a single screw. I don't remember if that was there on the older pedals. If it isn't then it will probably be a pain to make a solution that doesn't void warranty for the springs.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with all the puzzling and fiddling you have to do still. The current project looks good, although since its a prototype it still looks crude (but no use in making a prototype look nice unless you need to sell the idea. heh).
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
I know every product evolves, so what is your point?
I only wanted to point out that unlike Fanatec Thrustmaster still publically denies any improvements have been made in the production process. Just try mailing them about it. I am sure Fanatec would say that improvements have been made over time, but Thrustmaster denies it with a reply that only the factory installed firmware differs. I have no clue as to what Logitech would claim in this though.
Mostly I reckon this is due to not wanting to do product/part swaps that are expensive and cut into the revenue.
When it comes to waiting however what you're talking about, I think everyone should for himself figure out at what to do and when it is the right time to decide on the purchase.
I only wanted to point out that unlike Fanatec Thrustmaster still publically denies any improvements have been made in the production process. Just try mailing them about it. I am sure Fanatec would say that improvements have been made over time, but Thrustmaster denies it with a reply that only the factory installed firmware differs. I have no clue as to what Logitech would claim in this though.
Mostly I reckon this is due to not wanting to do product/part swaps that are expensive and cut into the revenue.
When it comes to waiting however what you're talking about, I think everyone should for himself figure out at what to do and when it is the right time to decide on the purchase.
- 393
- Dubai
- the-spike-125
- killerdag125
In my opinion, improvement can always be seen from two sides.
First is to say "The improvements are great, because the manufacturer is continues trying to improve their products."
And second is to say, "Why are they doing improvements, to a product, that should have been fine from the factory?"
Fanatec is a company that is seeing improvements as in the first case and thrustmaster sees them as in the second case and is scared of a bad rep.
I prefer the Fanatec way, as it's more open to the customer.
But every major corp will rather withhold information and leave you in the dark, then to lose face.
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
True those are indeed the two sides of the coin. I also agree with you on that the Fanatec way is better since it's more open. Alright we do see that Fanatec has dealt with some huge criticism in the past and they have dealt with and still are improving on those points.
What I see as a flaw in point to is that if you keep information away from a customer and they find out about certain changes via GTP or any other community out there, then they loose face as well and probably even more so then before. Plus even more if they find out that the CS keeps denying and doesn't allow product swaps changes even though you want a product swapped after you find out that your model has a big flaw. So why would they loose face harder then before? Because they weren't open and honest. As a human you'll start to loose trust and believe in that company even though they might replace the individual part again and again, since you start wondering what other flaws might still be present that are undiscovered etc etc. The might begins to wonder and that way the distrust slowely gets worse until you (the customer) want to buy a new wheel. At that point it will be unlikely that you will choose for a wheel from that manufacturer again.
Now what happens when your open and honest, plus have good CS that will over a swap if needed. Even though you might be unhappy with the situation at that point of time when you're in trouble, since they were telling you in all honesty what the flaw is and that there were changes you don't start to loose trust. Plus if they fix, swap or replace the product/parts for the better ones you'll have even more trust then before in the company because even though you were in trouble you got fixed up with a better/improved product. The only thing you will be left with is the fact that you won't quickly buy products from that company when they are first released, but that is something you can easily take for granted because of the good support and mentality of the company.
What I see as a flaw in point to is that if you keep information away from a customer and they find out about certain changes via GTP or any other community out there, then they loose face as well and probably even more so then before. Plus even more if they find out that the CS keeps denying and doesn't allow product swaps changes even though you want a product swapped after you find out that your model has a big flaw. So why would they loose face harder then before? Because they weren't open and honest. As a human you'll start to loose trust and believe in that company even though they might replace the individual part again and again, since you start wondering what other flaws might still be present that are undiscovered etc etc. The might begins to wonder and that way the distrust slowely gets worse until you (the customer) want to buy a new wheel. At that point it will be unlikely that you will choose for a wheel from that manufacturer again.
Now what happens when your open and honest, plus have good CS that will over a swap if needed. Even though you might be unhappy with the situation at that point of time when you're in trouble, since they were telling you in all honesty what the flaw is and that there were changes you don't start to loose trust. Plus if they fix, swap or replace the product/parts for the better ones you'll have even more trust then before in the company because even though you were in trouble you got fixed up with a better/improved product. The only thing you will be left with is the fact that you won't quickly buy products from that company when they are first released, but that is something you can easily take for granted because of the good support and mentality of the company.
- 393
- Dubai
- the-spike-125
- killerdag125
I totally agree with you.
Anyone who buys a just launched product, has to be aware that the product is not yet as developed, as in the end stage of it's production line.
This is a fact for anything you buy.
And IMO with the complexity of products we are getting by now, it is something we have to either learn to accept, or wait a year or two after the launch before buying the product.
But back on the topic.
I have currently a CSR elite, but still I really would like to try a T500 for the comparison.
I know of one setup in a gameshop near by, maybe I will check it out on the weekend, to get some idea.
What I can say about the Elite, is that it is really an amazing wheel.
Anyone who buys a just launched product, has to be aware that the product is not yet as developed, as in the end stage of it's production line.
This is a fact for anything you buy.
And IMO with the complexity of products we are getting by now, it is something we have to either learn to accept, or wait a year or two after the launch before buying the product.
But back on the topic.
I have currently a CSR elite, but still I really would like to try a T500 for the comparison.
I know of one setup in a gameshop near by, maybe I will check it out on the weekend, to get some idea.
What I can say about the Elite, is that it is really an amazing wheel.
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
For those of you who are interested in the load cell project mentioned a couple of pages back in this thread, here's another brief update on where things stand:
I spent all of last week working on the electronic packaging for my "pre-production prototypes" built up and ready to deploy to my beta testers.
The V2 bracket looks pretty nice -- it's made of heavier gauge steel so it's more solid and has less flex, which will allow it to be used with a wider variety of load cells (meaning if you want one that requires more pressure, this bracket should accommodate that). This isn't the final production version of the bracket, but it will give me a better idea of how sturdy the load cell package is when I distribute it to my testers.
Unfortunately, I've hit a snag with the electronics packaging. I've been trying to find solutions that will keep the price point as low as possible, opting to use existing load cell amps and some custom wiring and a cable coupler that will mate with the T500RS pedal cable to connect everything together. This involves actually soldering 6-conductor cables to a circuit board and/or splicing cables together to provide for an input (from the pedals) and an output (to the T500RS wheel or to a Bodnar cable for stand-alone use).
This was my original concept for the production version:
The problem is that this approach is WAY more labor-intensive than I anticipated -- typically, 5 or 6 solder connections should be no big deal from an assembly standpoint, but the 6-conductor cabling that is used for this type of application isn't really intended for solder-type applications. These cables are typically intended to have connectors crimped onto them, like your typical phone jack or network cable, and the internal wires are fairly delicate, so while you CAN make solder connections with them, they are very fragile once they're soldered in place.
From an assembly standpoint, this fragility makes production dicey, because if the assembly isn't handled just so while putting the electronics package together, I'm faced with having to repair broken wiring. A little extra care can make this work, but if it's this fragile during assembly, then I'm not comfortable with how durable this would be in actual use over the long-term, especially since this will literally be living "under foot."
This general packaging concept would have kept the production costs fairly low, because all that would be required with the package for the electronics would be a couple of simple access holes that could be easily drilled into the plastic enclosures to allow the cables to exit the package.
The alternative is to move back towards my initial concept, utilizing connectorized cables and a custom electronics package that incorporates the same type of plugs used on the T500RS wheel. This means a custom circuit board will be required, so I can't use existing retail load cell amps from folks like Derek Speare or Leo Bodnar, which drives the price up because a custom circuit board is going to cost ME more up-front, and even in quantities it won't be as cheap as a load cell amp from Derek or Leo would be.
The problem doesn't stop there, though, because the need to use receptacle-type jacks on the electronics package means that the enclosures will have to be custom cut to accommodate the jacks, and this is going to cost more than simply drilling a couple of access holes to feed cables through would cost (think custom CNC cutting for every electronics enclosure). This runs the cost up even further, but as a result, the final version will be more durable and reliable, which is what you're looking for with this kind of thing.
This is what I'm envisioning will be required for the final production version at this point:
I am waiting for a quote to come back on the cost of the custom circuit boards and the custom-cut plastic enclosures, so at this point I have no idea what this is going to do to the overall cost of the mod, but I do know it will be at least slightly higher than my target price point of $100.
So, that's where things stand right now -- this little snag has delayed the build-up and deployment of my pre-production beta test units, but I have figured out how to make the prototypes work using my "low-cost" design, and I can take some extra measures to ensure that those initial units will be durable enough for me to gather some general feedback from my designated testers.
This has delayed deployment of the pre-production prototypes to my beta testers because the initial prototype production run is going to take longer to build-up than I had anticipated, so I've asked them to be patient.
Ultimately, I think the overall quality will be a bit higher in the end, and I'd rather produce a higher-quality item that's appropriately durable, as opposed to producing something a little less pricey that has some dubious issues in terms of build quality.
I spent all of last week working on the electronic packaging for my "pre-production prototypes" built up and ready to deploy to my beta testers.
The V2 bracket looks pretty nice -- it's made of heavier gauge steel so it's more solid and has less flex, which will allow it to be used with a wider variety of load cells (meaning if you want one that requires more pressure, this bracket should accommodate that). This isn't the final production version of the bracket, but it will give me a better idea of how sturdy the load cell package is when I distribute it to my testers.
Unfortunately, I've hit a snag with the electronics packaging. I've been trying to find solutions that will keep the price point as low as possible, opting to use existing load cell amps and some custom wiring and a cable coupler that will mate with the T500RS pedal cable to connect everything together. This involves actually soldering 6-conductor cables to a circuit board and/or splicing cables together to provide for an input (from the pedals) and an output (to the T500RS wheel or to a Bodnar cable for stand-alone use).
This was my original concept for the production version:
The problem is that this approach is WAY more labor-intensive than I anticipated -- typically, 5 or 6 solder connections should be no big deal from an assembly standpoint, but the 6-conductor cabling that is used for this type of application isn't really intended for solder-type applications. These cables are typically intended to have connectors crimped onto them, like your typical phone jack or network cable, and the internal wires are fairly delicate, so while you CAN make solder connections with them, they are very fragile once they're soldered in place.
From an assembly standpoint, this fragility makes production dicey, because if the assembly isn't handled just so while putting the electronics package together, I'm faced with having to repair broken wiring. A little extra care can make this work, but if it's this fragile during assembly, then I'm not comfortable with how durable this would be in actual use over the long-term, especially since this will literally be living "under foot."
This general packaging concept would have kept the production costs fairly low, because all that would be required with the package for the electronics would be a couple of simple access holes that could be easily drilled into the plastic enclosures to allow the cables to exit the package.
The alternative is to move back towards my initial concept, utilizing connectorized cables and a custom electronics package that incorporates the same type of plugs used on the T500RS wheel. This means a custom circuit board will be required, so I can't use existing retail load cell amps from folks like Derek Speare or Leo Bodnar, which drives the price up because a custom circuit board is going to cost ME more up-front, and even in quantities it won't be as cheap as a load cell amp from Derek or Leo would be.
The problem doesn't stop there, though, because the need to use receptacle-type jacks on the electronics package means that the enclosures will have to be custom cut to accommodate the jacks, and this is going to cost more than simply drilling a couple of access holes to feed cables through would cost (think custom CNC cutting for every electronics enclosure). This runs the cost up even further, but as a result, the final version will be more durable and reliable, which is what you're looking for with this kind of thing.
This is what I'm envisioning will be required for the final production version at this point:
I am waiting for a quote to come back on the cost of the custom circuit boards and the custom-cut plastic enclosures, so at this point I have no idea what this is going to do to the overall cost of the mod, but I do know it will be at least slightly higher than my target price point of $100.
So, that's where things stand right now -- this little snag has delayed the build-up and deployment of my pre-production beta test units, but I have figured out how to make the prototypes work using my "low-cost" design, and I can take some extra measures to ensure that those initial units will be durable enough for me to gather some general feedback from my designated testers.
This has delayed deployment of the pre-production prototypes to my beta testers because the initial prototype production run is going to take longer to build-up than I had anticipated, so I've asked them to be patient.
Ultimately, I think the overall quality will be a bit higher in the end, and I'd rather produce a higher-quality item that's appropriately durable, as opposed to producing something a little less pricey that has some dubious issues in terms of build quality.
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
Small progress update:
I just shipped a testing prototype to the first of my beta testers. Cary Bettenhausen was to be my initial beta tester, but one of my testers had already ordered a few parts to try to build-up their own load cell mod, so I worked with them to provide them a one-off non-production prototype built around the parts that they had already acquired.
If the installation goes well, hopefully we'll be hearing some "customer" impressions within the next week or so.
I just shipped a testing prototype to the first of my beta testers. Cary Bettenhausen was to be my initial beta tester, but one of my testers had already ordered a few parts to try to build-up their own load cell mod, so I worked with them to provide them a one-off non-production prototype built around the parts that they had already acquired.
If the installation goes well, hopefully we'll be hearing some "customer" impressions within the next week or so.
- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
^^ Cool, looking forward!
