[trackripper123]

You guys have a phantom page again... What is it with that?

[Leonidae@MFT]

kingmoshoeshoe2

Last but not least - the race Pug's tamer cousin - the 205 T16 '85. While looking pretty awesome in an 80s French kind of way, I somehow never got around to it, imagining it to be difficult to drive (the short wheelbase and positioning of the engine, and your label of advanced). As I managed my way around some other 'advanced' cars from your stable by now I thought of giving it a try.

First of all, it is nothing like the race 205. While the latter seems to have no hint of its dimensions or driveline layout apparent in the handling, the road version does. It will not bounce off the rev limiter on the GVS straight but it will get you sweaty palms (or it does that to me anyway - maybe the DS3 is not making the job of catching it easier) every time you brake for the first corner. As long as braking is in a straight line, it remains neutral but as soon as a radius is introduced, that back slowly but inexorably starts getting involved.

The rest of the handling seems to have a layer of treacle around it - it is not a car of lightning reactions - which is good for keeping things under control but at the same time giving the driver few options. It may be that I was consistently too fast on corner entry but the car appeared understeery and even a brutal throttle application will only get the back involved gradually. In faster corners this means more understeer before the line tightens slightly so make sure you have planty of space when doing this.

Braking remained an issue for me, with the first corner being the worst, the other one from high speed (after the top of hill chicane) simply worrying for the low perceived force of the brakes (feels forever before the car slows and the braking zones seem longer, too).

Eventually I tried a different tack and drove the car fairly gently and things improved. Braking earlier than your instincts tell you to, gently turning in and compensating for the lower corner speeds with a faster exit seems to have worked and my time was not so far off Greycap's posted one to make me feel ineffective (within 2 secs).

To be honest not a car of immediate gratification, more one where you have to work on mastering it, and getting consistent laptimes out is certainly an achievement. Still, it wears its 'advanced' rating for a reason and is definitely a car to teach you about tricky dynamics. So in the end more of a teaching instrument than a fun one

Ah yes, the roadgoing version.. I use that frequently in the seasonal drift events. You need to know how to manage weight shifting in that car, your experience of the tail stepping out during the braking should've been a clear indicator of that. Scandinavian flicks and other weight management tricks are the name of the game instead of futilely applying throttle - As you noticed, that just glued the rear end more solidly to the road. This car needs you to show that you're in control or it will demonstrate the stubborn traits you encountered. As you said, it requires work to get most out of it.

Track, there's always magic happening in our thread. It just happens behind the pages, or between them, not on them.

[kingmoshoeshoe2]

Fair point Tried it some more and it is - in the way you described - posible to get the rear to play but at least in my hands this did not really improve the times. Given how I do not really drift, the latter are the primary objective (together with having fun achieving them).

Just out of curiosity, does the 0/2 brake balance also weaken the overall braking effect?

[Leonidae@MFT]

Yes. Nowadays I use settings around 2/5 etc..

[Tzun]

Have you guys tuned the Elise 111R yet? Im too tired to go trough 154 pages (im using app). If you havent, could you? I can share you my Elise for you to tune.

[Greycap]

kingmoshoeshoe2 - Those two Fords are actually very similar when the actual cars are considered but you're seeing the huge difference between sports and racing tyres in action right there. If you equip the rally car with Sports Softs or less it'll be just as good or bad, depending on the view, as the road car. I've actually driven them both in drift trials with Comfort Hards and the main difference comes from the added power. But that's a good thing at least in my eyes, there are no real flaws in the RS200 to begin with and the good sides haven't disappeared when turning it into a racer.

The difference between a rallying Ford and a track racing Opel, well, it can be safely said that the PP system only works between cars of a similar class/style/something. It doesn't put nearly enough value on mechanical and aerodynamical grip but relies more on power, torque and weight - all of which turn the scales against a Group B rally car. Then again on a "stop and go" track the RS200 might actually beat the Calibra by its explosive acceleration.

Tzun - Yes we have, named Lotus Elise Sport 220 '04 and sporting a 500PP tune.

[kingmoshoeshoe2]

As one of the older tunes I have not tried yet, the Honda S2000 Spec A '06 was due to appear sooner or later. Many a time I had a tab with the settings open but then did not get to it.

In any case, after finishing work today some relaxation was in order and I gave it a try - first with your long distance settings, subsequently with the original ones.

GVS, TM, R246 were all hunting grounds, the latter one the only I did not try with both settings. The car is typically Greycap in that it is rock stable under braking, and that throttle openings do produce a result steeringwise, when the speeds are not too high.

My initial impression was of excellent front grip and no understeer. As I drove it more I felt the grip was maybe not that excellent after all but then a quick comparison with the MX-5 you made made me decide it worked rather nicely in the end The rear is fairly willing to play at low speeds but gets progressively steadier as you up the pace. In high speed corners the adjustability slowly vanishes, to the extent where the car has hardly any sensitivity to throttle inputs and where only a sharp prod on the brakes will alter the line. As it will usually get you to the other end of the curve without it, this is not a problem but a bit more throttle steering would be welcome at these higher speeds, too (my personal opinion, of course).

The achilles heel of the car seems to be bumps, kerbs and any other road imprefections, which for me at least were a sure fire way to a ruined lap. While the top of the hill chicane bump can be taken with no regard to this, the swimming pool section ones need more care, and the final corner at TM remained a heart in mouth moment throughout.

Finally, I decided to revert back to the apparently hairier short distance settings. To be honest, I found the car a bit easier to control with these, although I would not necessarily chosen the car for an endurance race in neither configuration My times at GVS improved in this way and I felt the rear easier to catch, too.

In terms of times, it did not quite get to the 500PP private rockets the two of you have made for me, but competed relatively nicely against the published 500PP machinery in my hands, and my times with the Mazda MX-5 were at practically the same distance to it as your distance.

A good car with deceptive speed (at no point did I feel like going particularly fast), which definitely takes a lot of skill to consistently get good times out of, even if it is not that difficult to drive per se. Sadly, TM and the Spec A somehow just do not gel with me

[Leonidae@MFT]

Hm.. With my packing progressing and day of move approaching rapidly, we've not published anything recently.. But, we will come up with something.

[Niku Driver HC]

Well, I have been driving Greycap's Ford Mustang, and I'm really impressed. That car has plenty of sleeper potential in it. Plenty of grip, plenty of speed, and plenty of muscle car.

[krioto]

Lotus Elise Sport 220 '04

I tested this little ripper on London, Rome, Madrid and 24Hr Nurburgring.

It handles superbly - very quick into and out of corners - so easy to manoeuvre on both tight turns as well as long drawn out high speed sweepers.

Don't be afraid to use the entire 6 gears as well - I can have an aversion to 1st gear, but you need it in the Lotus - it maybe the lack of power overall, but I sometimes found low-speed 2nd to be a bit sluggish, and takes some time to wind out into 3rd, but downshifting into 1st alleviates that, and puts the spring back into corner exit.

It eats up the city circuits with the sharp 90 degree turns, and with late braking you can slide 4 wheels around a bend whilst remaining in control - very enjoyable. London and London Reverse in particular are fantastic courses to put this car through its paces, and you really see the car at its best.

Long straights can be a bit of a bane, but you get what you pay for - insane cornering ability, with a bit of a loss at the top-end speeds, but you'll be having too much fun in the bends to notice mostly.

At the ring this car chews up the track - I ran 5 laps of the course last night, and on the GP circuit section I was smiling for quite a while.

= me driving the Elise

[kingmoshoeshoe2]

OK, some more reviews, while I have the time Tried out three more cars, of which one will not get to the review stage any time soon (that being the Lancia Stratos, which I need to get around GVS in one piece for at least one lap before saying anything more informed than the fact that it looks lovely and that oversteer is a bit of a feature)

So let's start with the Mitshubishi Evo '05 Shiden. Once the RM and all the bits are slapped on, you have a car looking very much like a circuit racer, and not much like a rally wannabe. This certainly spells potential and the time you posted looked quite tasty, too. One thing is also clear after the start - this car will be making quite some time up on the straights (rapid acceleration) and braking is unlikely to make you sweat (rock solid, even into corners).

And here comes 'however'. If you were thinking of a heroic corner carver, AYC and all, you will likely be surprised to say the least. The car seems to be extremely stable and anything short of a significant change of pace is unlikely to change the car's line (as I drive it, at least). This means you can apply full throttle even out of slow corners without fear of the rear, or at any other point, without the rear, or the front budging much. At the same time the front grip, in spite of the RM setup and front downforce remains the car's weak point. It never disintegrates into plodding understeer but the car will simply gather pace and at the same time slowly edge out towards the wall / gravel, if you apply throttle too early. Given how stable it is, this usually means a massive braking maneuvre to change things. Still it is not slow but some corners are simply frustrating in it - like the top of hill chicane at GVS. At other tracks some of your cars with less PP are solidly faster in my hands (the Audi RS8 is certainly faster for me at TM).

At the same time I know that the car will never bite, never really ask that much from its driver, so it is certainly a solid choice for longer distance events, or for drivers who get sweaty palms, when the car has a mobile rear.

The final comparison was with its arch nemesis, the 'Hayabusa'. The cars could not be more different - where the Mitsubishi will be clean lines and neutrality, the Hayabusa is pivoting around you if you so much as look in the general direction of the throttle or brakes (takes some using to, if switching directly from one to the other), and you will slide all over the place - but in a nicely controlled way. Not sure if a wheel and pedal combo may change the picture somehow, here. I found the Hayabusa ultimately faster (agrees with your posted times), more fun, but potentially less consistent over longer runs.

[kingmoshoeshoe2]

The other car I tried is the hyper Zonda '02. Somehow when installing the specified parts the car ended up with ca. 100bhp more than in your spec, with the appropriate increase in PP. All the gearbox settings were still possible, so not sure if the model description (of the base car) was wrong or what

It's been a while since the car was published, so I do not remember its 'stablemate' but if it was the VW Nardo, this is certainly a different beast to drive. In spite of the Millenium Falcon acceleration, the car is not the worst of beasts when it comes to handling (those 950bhp behind you with no downforce could let you think otherwise).

So how does it work? Well, the first thing to do is to make sure you do not impale the car in front, as the acceleration is really, really rabid. Braking, on the other hand is equally strong, if not quite as assured as a car with downforce, when you are trying to decelerate from 360+ kmh (say Le Mans).

In spite of the relatively ample rubber, you do need to make sure not to enter into a 4 wheel drift - not that it would be uncontrollable (even for someone with my meagre abilities), it is just you lose too much time. In fact the only thing to watch out for, in terms of controllability, is too sudden inputs (both throttle and steering), which are likely to overwhelm the car, and consequentially me Still, most slides are controllable, and if you have a trailing throttle into corners, and do not go for a pedal to the metal approach on the way out (at least until pointing more or less in the desired direction), you should be fine.

Not a car I would be able to drive nearly as close to its final abilities as your somewhat lower powered vehicles, or indeed something like the much more benign Nardo but at the same time not something trying to kill you at every possible opportunity. Something one will be able to drive from the start, and slowly master but neither a car to ore instantly, nor one likely to be bested by too many road car opponents on faster circuits

[Greycap]

kingmoshoeshoe2 - I'm inclined to believe that the S2000 needs a retune, it was made by the time v1.05 was the latest thing and the tyre physics have changed at least twice since then. But even then it might retain the same problems - no downforce at the front to provide extra grip, nor enough power to give proper throttle oversteer at speed. The S2000 in its basic (meaning no Amuse, Spoon etc.) guise is balanced and nice to drive but that's about where it ends, it's not the fastest of its class practically anywhere.

And the Shiden, well, that's what happens when trying to turn a hopelessly understeery pig into something useful but not quite succeeding. I've never understood what went wrong with Evo VII-VIII-IX but they just don't work for me with their overwhelming stability and total lack of looseness. On the other hand it makes them great for rallying which probably would be the smart thing to do but I had to counter the Hayabusa with something and the result was known before the work even began. The GD generation Impreza is still a true Impreza but in my eyes the Evo died with the VI.

krioto - No doubt, London is like it was created for the Elise. The setup was more or less made by the time when the best paying seasonals were those at London and Nordschleife and it can probably be seen! I must have done several dozen laps at each of them, changing the car bit by bit and gathering a lot of money and racing gear in the process. It's one of the few cars that weren't tuned by lap times alone but also by keeping an eye on the handling over the Green Hell lap. The approach seems to have worked!

[Leonidae@MFT]

Chevrolet Camaro Cup Car'12

558 bhp, 683 Nm, 1410 kg, PP 600
Painted in Victory Red from Chevrolet


Clickable for full size

Parts to fit:
Oil Change
New Wheels, finished in Stock Black
Racing Modification
Sports ECU
Sports Intake Manifold
Racing Air Filter
Titanium Racing Exhaust
Sports Exhaust Manifold
Catalytic Converter: Sports
Fully Customizable Transmission
Twin Plate Clutch
Semi Racing Flywheel
Carbon Propeller Shaft
Fully Customizable LSD
Fully Customizable Suspension Kit
Sports Soft Tyres

Overall cost:200k+

Weight Adjustment Ballast
Ballast Amount (kg): 200
Ballast Position: -50

Aerodynamics
Downforce: 25 / 60

Transmission

Note: First, reset the gearbox to the default settings, then set the Max speed, and only then set the gear ratios.

Gear Ratios
1st: 2.699
2nd: 1.741
3rd: 1.235
4th: 1.000
5th: 0.817
6th: 0.672
Final Gear: 3.230

Max speed: 440 km/h

Fully Customizable LSD
Initial Torque: 10
Acceleration Sensitivity: 15
Braking Sensitivity: 15

Suspension
Ride Height Adjustment (mm): -15 / -15
Spring Rate (kgf/mm): 7.5 / 7.0
Dampers (Extension): 10 / 10
Dampers (Compression): 4 / 2
Anti-Roll Bars: 7 / 7
Camber Angle (-): 2.0 / 1.5
Toe Angle: -0.50 / -0.40

Brake Balance Controller
Brake Balance: 1 / 1

Driving Options
ASM: Off
TCS: 0
ABS: OFF

It started off as mistake. I watched a clip from youtube about Camaro Cup event being held on Alastaro, and began to ponder if it would be difficult to replicate such car in GT5. The more I thought of it, the more likely it started to look, and I began to do a research about the cars used in the event. Apparently, the real cup cars are lighter and less powerful, so I took a step further and added weight for balancing the car to nice 55/45 ratio, then tweaked the engine bit further to even up the weight gains impact on performance. Then I looked into the transmission, which apparently is a 4-speed unit. I matched the gear ratios as closely as I could, and somewhat managed to pull off a transmission that allows heavy throttle application on almost any gear. While 5th can still be used on tracks with longer straights, the 6th is pretty much overgear. Handling-wise I was pleasantly surprised, there was plenty of traction and car allows very heavy handed and rough driving style despite of plentiful torque. I also switched the ABS off, just to see if it could be done. It can, but you won't be smashing the brakes like you could with the ABS on 1, and the distances will be longer. But, as you get used to the car, it won't be a problem. Overall, Camaro Cup Car replica came to life in a splendid manner and I am rather pleased with it.

[obsessive rules]

Now, back to the 4 pages of discussion.

[Greycap]

Dodge Challenger SSC '12

603+ bhp, 703+ Nm, 1325 kg, PP 600
Painted in Light Gunmetal Metallic from Dodge


Clickable for full size

Parts to fit:
Oil Change
Stock Wheels, finished in Matte Black from Gran Turismo
Engine Tuning Stage 1
Sports ECU
Sports Intake Manifold
Racing Air Filter
Titanium Racing Exhaust
Sports Exhaust Manifold
Catalytic Converter: Sports
Fully Customizable Transmission
Twin Plate Clutch
Semi Racing Flywheel
Carbon Propeller Shaft
Fully Customizable LSD
Fully Customizable Suspension Kit
Sports Soft Tyres

Overall cost: racing cars aren't cheap, you know?

Weight Adjustment Ballast
Ballast Amount (kg): 40
Ballast Position: 50

Aerodynamics
Downforce: 15 / 35

Transmission

Note: First, reset the gearbox to the default settings, then set the Max speed, and only then set the gear ratios.

Gear Ratios
1st: 3.421
2nd: 2.302
3rd: 1.765
4th: 1.415
5th: 1.180
6th: 1.000
Final Gear: 3.150

Max speed: 360 km/h

Fully Customizable LSD
Initial Torque: 5
Acceleration Sensitivity: 25
Braking Sensitivity: 5

Suspension
Ride Height Adjustment (mm): 0 / 0
Spring Rate (kgf/mm): 8.5 / 7.0
Dampers (Extension): 8 / 5
Dampers (Compression): 4 / 6
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 / 4
Camber Angle (-): 1.5 / 1.5
Toe Angle: 0.00 / 0.00

Brake Balance Controller
Brake Balance: 4 / 2

Driving Options
ASM: Off
TCS: 0
ABS: OFF

Loosely based on the SCCA cars but eventually opting for slightly more liberate regulations, the Challenger Super Saloon Competition is an oddity among Dodges in that it can actually perform like a racer should. As usual power is available in high enough amounts but this time it's combined with handling qualities that manage to get the car around corners despite feeling stereotypically American. One of the most notable features is the absence of ABS but surprisingly it doesn't make that much difference and certainly can't be used as an excuse for off-track excursions unless your left foot is made of lead. As with all high powered RWD cars some common sense is required but when looking at the starting point the result could have been a lot worse.

[Leonidae@MFT]

*Drops a pin*

[crimson_menace]

Leonidae@MFT

Mitsubishi FTO Ralliart'99

I saw this little guy in the UCD, so I figured I'd take one for a spin, and needed a quick tune to give it some extra 'go.' Knowing you guys from a while back now, I knew you'd have a tune I was looking for.

To no surprise, I found this one.

Well I went ahead & bought all the parts, plugged in your numbers, & took it for a spin around my old favorite, Trial Mountain.

The first thing I noticed were the extended gears with some nice wheelspin. This being a 300hp superlight FF, that was no shocker to me. But as I turned in thru the final s-turn to the starting line, I knew this thing was gonna be a handful. "UNDERSTEEEEER" was the phrase running thru my mind as I tried to keep this thing out of the grass and off the walls. It has some decent stability, but man this thing feels like the Leno Tank Car at times. I finished a lap, @1:39xxx. Not too bad for a little car at The Mountain. But I knew I could do better.

I went ahead and evaluated your setup and noted a couple things that I felt would ease this thing up thru the turns:

I gave it a little ballast, 81kg @ +50 for the position. Making it 55/45

Replaced the adjustable LSD with the stock one. Your settings made it too tight for my taste.

Dropped the ride height to -10/-15 (f/r)
Spring rate: 7.0/4.0
Dampers E: 6/5
Dampers C: 4/6
Anti-roll: 2/1

Camber: 1.9/0.8
Toe: -0.15/0.10 (i think this was the biggest culprit honestly)

I left the brakes and transmission as yours. You have excellent tranny settings.

With my setup, my 2nd lap out was 1:36.xxx, a quicker lap by a whole 3 seconds. Give my setup a try vs. your own, and hopefully you guys can see the difference.

[Leonidae@MFT]

Huh.. I don't recall it being THAT bad. Although, it could be the result of changed tyre physics. I'll give it a run once I have time. I still have some packing to do.

[Greycap]

My first three laps with it were below 1'36, the fastest one of the bunch being 1'35,633. The next batch consisted of one 1'35,xxx and two 1'34,xxx and the time now stands at 1'34,683. I also tried your version and while the handling was noticably different the actual performance wasn't, the gap hovering between -0,2xx to +0,1xx throughout the lap and eventually ending up marginally slower at 1'34,738. Better at slow corners, worse at fast ones - it's always a compromise.