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Active Member
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Apples to Apples comparison of GT5:P vs. Forza 3 Physics
Introduction There is this perpetual debate about what game has better "physics" Forza or GT5 Prologue. This debate extends to all racing games and simulations. Instead of making objective statements that can be verified most just make subjective statements like, "The physics in that game sucks." Even professional reviews seldom make objective statements about the handling physics. Since I own both Forza 3 and GT5:P and have wheels for both I decided to attempt an OBJECTIVE comparisson of the car handling models in each game. Testing Methodology Hardware: XBOX 360 Elite with MS Wireless FFB Wheel PS3 with Logitech DFP All assists off except ABS. Cockpit view. Hotlaps (no AI) Tracks: Sazuka Cicruit Cars: RWD: Ferrari 599 Mid Engine RWD: Ferrari F430 AWD: Mitsubishi Evo X FWD: Ford Focus ST Acceleration Simple standing start test. Accelerating from zero. Forza 3: Had to accelerate more carefully to avoid wheel spin. Wheel shakes with wheel spin. GT5P: Cars seem to have little wheel spin. No touch need for a good start. No force feedback. Comment: Neither game simulated torque steering (where car pulls to one side during full acceleration) but at least Forza 3 had good wheel spin. Winner: Forza 3 Braking Forza 3: Braking was extremely sensitive. Very difficult to achieve anything less that full brake. GT5P: Broader range of braking inputs. Winner: GT5P On Throttle Oversteer Forza 3: Ferrari 599 failed to oversteer when throttle was mashed on corners. When it did oversteer it was very easy to catch and correct. GT5P: Ferrari 599 easily oversteers unless throttle is applied gently at low gears. Comment: Mashing the throttle very rarely could unsettle the cars in Forza 3. Including the high end race cars. Extremely unrealistic behavior. Winner: GT5P Lift-Off Throttle Oversteer Forza 3: Ferrari F430 had no detectable lift-off oversteer. Did not show any signs of being a mid engine car. GT5P: Suddenly lifting off throttle while turning hard led to slight oversteer on the wide turns in Sazuka. Winner GT5P Understeer Forza 3 and GT5P behave identically during understeer. Ford Focus ST in both games behaved identically. Only difference was sliding was much better in Forza 3. Comment: Tire sounds were more natural and convincing in Forza 3. I don't believe this is a subjective statement. The way the cars slide on tires was far more true to life than GT5P. Winner: Forza 3 Steering Forza 3: When wildly oscillating steering back and forth responded too suddenly. There was little to no sense of inertia. Was difficult to cause a crash by oscillating the wheel back and forth on straights. GT5P: Overall steering was smoother and car behaved like a car with weight. Was easier to induce a crash when oscillating steering wheel. Comment: Steering was very twitchy in Forza 3. This was maybe the worst aspect of the game. Is the MS Wheel the cause? Winner GT5P Tracks Comment: Sazuka had far more detail in Forza 3. It wasn't even close. But most other tracks in Forza 3 did not have the same level of detail. Winner: Forza 3. Complaint: To prevent players from cutting the track Forza has these sticky patches that supernaturally bring your car to a dead stop. It kills the immersion when it happens. In GT5 you're prevented from accelerating for a few seconds. The GT5 system is much better than those supernatural sticky patches. Conclusion The handing model in GT5P does a much better job of representing oversteer in high horsepower cars. The more powerful the car the more dramatic the difference. The lack of any lift-off oversteer in the F430 was a bit surprising. The steering was also another area where Forza 3 came up short. Reckless steering input simply did not unsettle the car like you would expect. Overall, I should add that Forza 3 has advantages in damage and tire wear and parts customizations. Overall if you consider customizations and damage and online play Forza 3 is the better game. However, when it comes to car handling physics alone GT5P is more realistic. It's difficult to imagine an objective person testing same cars and tracks coming to a different conclusion. I must also point out that the MS Wireless wheel compares very poorly to the Logitech DFP. Given that, in the average person's price range, the MS wheel is the ONLY viable option this must be counted as a shortcoming of Forza 3. |
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The Slow Member
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Deleted
Last edited by crazytortise; Nov 01 2009 at 8:52 PM..
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New Member
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crazytortise
You compairing a +2 year old demo to a 1 week old full game. Hardly compairing apples to apples if you ask me.
Im sure you could have put your findings in here to. |
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1957 - 1985
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crazytortise
You compairing a +2 year old demo to a 1 week old full game. Hardly compairing apples to apples if you ask me.
Im sure you could have put your findings in here to.
Last edited by the Interceptor; Nov 01 2009 at 7:26 AM..
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PlatinumMember1021posts
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I Hope you were using N3s or something to simulate stock tires.
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Diamond Member
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MowTin
Apples to Apples comparison of GT5:P vs. Forza 3 Physics
Introduction There is this perpetual debate about what game has better "physics" Forza or GT5 Prologue. This debate extends to all racing games and simulations. Instead of making objective statements that can be verified most just make subjective statements like, "The physics in that game sucks." Even professional reviews seldom make objective statements about the handling physics. Since I own both Forza 3 and GT5:P and have wheels for both I decided to attempt an OBJECTIVE comparisson of the car handling models in each game. Testing Methodology Hardware: XBOX 360 Elite with MS Wireless FFB Wheel PS3 with Logitech DFP All assists off except ABS. Cockpit view. Hotlaps (no AI) Tracks: Sazuka Cicruit Cars: RWD: Ferrari 599 Mid Engine RWD: Ferrari F430 AWD: Mitsubishi Evo X FWD: Ford Focus ST Acceleration Simple standing start test. Accelerating from zero. Forza 3: Had to accelerate more carefully to avoid wheel spin. Wheel shakes with wheel spin. GT5P: Cars seem to have little wheel spin. No touch need for a good start. No force feedback. Comment: Neither game simulated torque steering (where car pulls to one side during full acceleration) but at least Forza 3 had good wheel spin. Winner: Forza 3 Braking Forza 3: Braking was extremely sensitive. Very difficult to achieve anything less that full brake. GT5P: Broader range of braking inputs. Winner: GT5P On Throttle Oversteer Forza 3: Ferrari 599 failed to oversteer when throttle was mashed on corners. When it did oversteer it was very easy to catch and correct. GT5P: Ferrari 599 easily oversteers unless throttle is applied gently at low gears. Comment: Mashing the throttle very rarely could unsettle the cars in Forza 3. Including the high end race cars. Extremely unrealistic behavior. Winner: GT5P Lift-Off Throttle Oversteer Forza 3: Ferrari F430 had no detectable lift-off oversteer. Did not show any signs of being a mid engine car. GT5P: Suddenly lifting off throttle while turning hard led to slight oversteer on the wide turns in Sazuka. Winner GT5P Understeer Forza 3 and GT5P behave identically during understeer. Ford Focus ST in both games behaved identically. Only difference was sliding was much better in Forza 3. Comment: Tire sounds were more natural and convincing in Forza 3. I don't believe this is a subjective statement. The way the cars slide on tires was far more true to life than GT5P. Winner: Forza 3 Steering Forza 3: When wildly oscillating steering back and forth responded too suddenly. There was little to no sense of inertia. Was difficult to cause a crash by oscillating the wheel back and forth on straights. GT5P: Overall steering was smoother and car behaved like a car with weight. Was easier to induce a crash when oscillating steering wheel. Comment: Steering was very twitchy in Forza 3. This was maybe the worst aspect of the game. Is the MS Wheel the cause? Winner GT5P Tracks Comment: Sazuka had far more detail in Forza 3. It wasn't even close. But most other tracks in Forza 3 did not have the same level of detail. Winner: Forza 3. Complaint: To prevent players from cutting the track Forza has these sticky patches that supernaturally bring your car to a dead stop. It kills the immersion when it happens. In GT5 you're prevented from accelerating for a few seconds. The GT5 system is much better than those supernatural sticky patches. Conclusion The handing model in GT5P does a much better job of representing oversteer in high horsepower cars. The more powerful the car the more dramatic the difference. The lack of any lift-off oversteer in the F430 was a bit surprising. The steering was also another area where Forza 3 came up short. Reckless steering input simply did not unsettle the car like you would expect. Overall, I should add that Forza 3 has advantages in damage and tire wear and parts customizations. Overall if you consider customizations and damage and online play Forza 3 is the better game. However, when it comes to car handling physics alone GT5P is more realistic. It's difficult to imagine an objective person testing same cars and tracks coming to a different conclusion. I must also point out that the MS Wireless wheel compares very poorly to the Logitech DFP. Given that, in the average person's price range, the MS wheel is the ONLY viable option this must be counted as a shortcoming of Forza 3.  The sound quality is one thing I found to be exceptionally better in FM3 compared to Prolouge though. But I've already put Forza 3 away after playing for only one day and am back to Prolouge due to the simplicity of the psychics in FM3...just isn't nearly realistic, challenging, or rewarding enough.
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New Member
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As someone who hasn't played Forza, I'm wondering about the sliding (in MowTin's section about understeer) feeling more realistic in Forza. Was it meant more in terms of just audio, or more? What's the car doing that doesn't happen in GT5P?
Also, the lack of really easily attainable wheelspin with total loss of rear-end grip at low/stationary speeds in the GT series has always been a stand out quirk in my mind. For instance - its been impossible to do a proper doughnut (rotating the car around the inside front wheel). Is it possible in Forza 3? |
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Diamond Member
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James2009
As someone who hasn't played Forza, I'm wondering about the sliding (in MowTin's section about understeer) feeling more realistic in Forza. Was it meant more in terms of just audio, or more? What's the car doing that doesn't happen in GT5P?
I haven't really played enough to give you too much insight on this, but there seems to be more feel for understeer/limit and the audio (tire squeeling) is also better which helps the overall sense of reading the limit of the front tires. Also, the lack of really easily attainable wheelspin with total loss of rear-end grip at low/stationary speeds in the GT series has always been a stand out quirk in my mind. For instance - its been impossible to do a proper doughnut (rotating the car around the inside front wheel). Is it possible in Forza 3? Low speed physics are WAY better in Forza 3 compared to Prolouge. It is possible to do some really nice donuts in FM3, and the cars seems to have much better and more realistic weight transfer at low speeds. |
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New Member
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Cheers timeattack07gt, its something I always hope PD will improve but never do! I think its partly what contributes to GT's smooth easily driftable physics - nothing too sudden is ever going to happen in terms of cars snapping in and out of lateral grip. I think it actually fits in with Kaz's idea of showing the cars move gracefully, showing them cornering and sliding more ideally/beautifully than in reality. I'm not actually convinced Kaz strictly wants to make a simulator in that sense.
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Active Member
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James2009
As someone who hasn't played Forza, I'm wondering about the sliding (in MowTin's section about understeer) feeling more realistic in Forza. Was it meant more in terms of just audio, or more? What's the car doing that doesn't happen in GT5P?
timeattack07gt
Low speed physics are WAY better in Forza 3 compared to Prolouge. It is possible to do some really nice donuts in FM3, and the cars seems to have much better and more realistic weight transfer at low speeds.
I would guess that since the understeer sound is so much better in Forza 3 and given that low speed cars are almost all FWD that do nothing but understeer that's why it seems like the low speed physics are better. Another reason the low speed physics seem better is because of wheel spin from standing starts. But to be honest NFS:Shift does a better job in this area than both of these games because it provides torque oversteer during standing starts and the sound and sense of rubber on road is also better. Again, overall I was really shocked at how badly FM3 did considering the guys at inside sim racing tv reviewed FM2 vs GT5P and said the physics were better in FM2. They gave no specifics about what was better or worse in each game. Also their review of FM3 was so full of praise for the physics that I went out and bought this game plus wheel. The funny thing is before I actually did these tests car by car I had the impression that FM3 physics were better. I was really surprised by the results. Please feel free to suggest more tests. |
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Active Member
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Nice comparison MowTin.
So both games have their ups and downs but overall GT5P has the better physics. But what have the track details to do with physics? Isn't that a graphics comparison? 
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Platinum Member
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Track physics is very important, IMO.
Curbs should have an affect on the cars, bumps in braking zones should be there, cambers should affect the cars grip more etc...not a visual detail at all. |
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Active Member
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GTP_rpm
Track physics is very important, IMO.
Curbs should have an affect on the cars, bumps in braking zones should be there, cambers should affect the cars grip more etc...not a visual detail at all. So what he meant with track details was the physical details... I get it. |
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MR2 = Addiction
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Excellent, unbiased comparison. +rep.
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New Member
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great comparison. I remember playing the first Forza and you could totally tell the difference in physics from that and GT4. I do remember that the customization system in Forza is quite unique compared to GT5P and it still is till this day. I mean, c'mon, K20 Civic in Forza!? LOL. anyways, good comp and always great to see those 2 great racing GAMES go at it.
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PD NASCAR Driver
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timeattack07gt
I've already put Forza 3 away after playing for only one day and am back to Prolouge due to the simplicity of the psychics in FM3...just isn't nearly realistic, challenging, or rewarding enough.
One guy whose opinion I trust. This is settled, since FM3 isnt as good as GT5P, so there is NO WAY FM3 will even compare to GT5. A big  to TA for that sweet comment.@ redsuinit- 700pp HSR= great close racing practice! |
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Junior Member
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Your test isn't exactly fair. You are comparing an older, unfinished game with a brand new, and full game.
GT5 has an entirely new physics system so I'm sure GT5 will be way better that Forza 3 in every physics category |
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Diamond Member
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jedaye
Your test isn't exactly fair. You are comparing an older, unfinished game with a brand new, and full game.
GT5 has an entirely new physics system so I'm sure GT5 will be way better that Forza 3 in every physics category If anything this makes GT5 look even more promising than FM3 once it is released next year...because GT5 will most definitely shiet on FM3, especially if you are even somewhat into realism and physics. This coming from someone who has both Prologue and Forza 3
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Junior Member
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They are saying that the new physics in GT5 Demo let the game easier, i hope the lift0off oversteer and all those things wont desapear or get too much reduced and all the advantage that Prologue has will dessapear, and the fun side of the game...
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¿ʞuıɥʇ noʎ ʇ,uop 'ǝɹɹɐzıq
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MowTin
Comment: Neither game simulated torque steering (where car pulls to one side during full acceleration) but at least Forza 3 had good wheel spin.
I might be confusing torque steering with something else, I don't know, it's going on 1 and I'm sleepy...so excuse the fail if the fail was indeed....a fail. 
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