FF & Buttkicker?

Hi, greeze

For isolation have in look in some £1 discount stores.
You will find Netbook/Laptop screen protectors or covers which are rubbery.

They may be handy for reducing unwanted vibrations likely caused with your unit at max volume or when really strong effects kick in. All I can tell you is its as much down to trial and error on positioning and your personal preference. Two units with lower volume will travel through the frame better than one but Stega used to have dual Gamers and moved up to bigger units so maybe he can discuss something about the differences.

Stega hi again.
Havnt head anything matey and we wont likely know to the game releases as even at TGS they never demonstrated it. I guess if it doesnt it will be really annoying particulary as the game should look awesome with it and the weather it showcased recently. 3x Monitors and 3x PS3 been sitting waiting for over a year and it may all be for nothing if its not supported, lol. I guess the old saying of not getting your hopes up should apply but with previous GT games supporting it we can keep hoping.

I guess my friend we will know in a month...

Guys regards the thread and getting brakes or throttle to work with BK units.
An idea would be to have each pedal in some way act as a volume control to an amplifer increasing the input volume with the pedal angle.

Whos good with electronics eh?
Zero Pedal Angle = Zero Volume
Max Pedal Angle = Max Volume

Come on doc need some ideas.

Mr Latte

It is all a bit of a headache as their are many factors and this gets a bit technical.

Using EQ is a bit of an issue too as it can require PRE OUTS from a 5.1 Amplifer going to seperate amplification with the EQUALISER in between for L/R audio control to alter your wind noise etc.

Factors:
Various games outputs differ.
Various viewpoints in games differ in audio strength of effects
Various amplifers will have differences in LFE control and output
Various amplifers have differing DSP and surround modes which effect LFE
Various Buttkicker devices will have differing performances
Various additional equipment and amplification needed to have more control

Leave out the EQ for now and concentrate on beefing your mid-low range audio. This way you can have it in a sense louder or balanced to drown out the wind noise.

If a kerb in a game doesnt make much low end bass noise (as some dont) then yes a Buttkicker will get little effect via the LFE. I understand your problem here. However normal speakers as you comment have a decent audible bass sound from them. So you can indeed cover both options as I have previously tested. One way is as mentioned is using good audible bass in car audio subwoofers to enchance the bass as a sub speaker has a much wider range than a Buttkicker. I think this would instantly help your issue when increasing volume to benifit the LFE the wind noise becomes unbarable. Trust me add at least one 12" sub with a 4ohm amplifer and it will be a big benifit when used with a Buttkicker.

Another trick is to to take audio from the centre channel or left/right. Using a 2nd 5.1 decoding amplifer or even stereo amplifer with optical input. You can do this combined with the PS3 multi audio output. Turn it on in system menus.

Now you could have 2x 5.1 amplifers, 1x HDMI 1x Optical.
"System A" doing the normal speaker thing and a LFE going to a Buttkicker(s) and subwoofer(s). You may also have Sub Harmonic in between the LFE output and Buttkicker(s) and if like me a seperate one for subwoofer(s) for individual control of each as mentioned above for more enchancement or control.

"System B"
Using normal game audio output of L/R or Centre channel to either a Buttkicker or subwoofer for bass enchancement. Just like a stereo system with a sub in between the speakers. This will give a good beefing of general game audio bass not the LFE effects.

I think though a Clarke Tactile unit will act better here than a Buttkicker with their more varied performance although as recently only got mine I will have to test this.

Just some of the components Im using with my journey and experimentation...

Click to expand...

I have similar setup...

I mounted 4 bass shakers (2 on each side of my playseat frame)
Receiver A - normal 7.1 speaker setup, but also has pre-outs.
So I ran a regular audio Red/White composite cable into receiver B which is attached to my 4 Bass Shakers.
When I hit a rumble strip, only the left or side shakes, but not both.. One thing I did do was turn down the wind noise.

i used to have the butt kicker gamer attached at the bottom of my frame, but i removed it after installing my 4 bass shakers..

Okay so you use PRE OUT : FRONT L/R from your main audio amp.
Then with a secondary amp you have 4x Bass Shakers?

What are you meaning by bass shakers?
Actual Buttkickers or other brand of tactile units or just subwoofers?

Wondering what way your powering your front speakers then? Is it also from the secondary amp powering the 4x Bass Shakers. How you connect all this?

Can you do a diagram of your setup and Im curious if you have tried or compared having 2x units from the FRONT L/R audio (for stereo action directional bass effect) Also then using the other two Bass Shakes coming from the main audio amps LFE. Would this not give both directional bass from the FRONT LR and also lower end or deeper bass from the LFE channel?

However this would need another seperate amp.


Ive made great progress with my testing using the Clarke Tactile from front audio not LFE.
For me these are best with this as they act more like speakers, closer to a subwoofer than like a Buttkicker. Clarke Tactile units give much more varied tactile sensations right into high frequencies. Indeed they are more versatile than my Buttkickers. The Clarke produces, very much a foot tapping mild, yet not annoying bone tingle feedback. Its hard to explain but imagine wearing a wet shirt you can feel it stick to your body. Clarke units penetrate your skin and the effect increases bass depth perception. For me it also seems to be widening the sonics of the speakers and creating a sense of added dimension to the audio. However Im awaiting a faulty amp being replaced to get this working also with the subwoofers and also my latest ebay purchase below:



Err back to the thread topic.
I will test/compare a Clarke Tactile to a Buttkicker Mini LFE when I get the EQ delivered. It may be suitable for a role of possibly working from the FRONT L/R or Im thinking the CENTRE channel to act like a throttle action response. Using the games main "engine audio" sound.

This might work well without having to have some physical implentation relying on a pedal postion to trigger some form of audio reaction to a transducer.

It may however require an EQ to boost certain audio frequencies for the "engine sounds" and connect this to a mounted Buttkicker or Clarke. Then by having it attached directly to the front pedal section of the cockpit.

In effect this should if successful give a representation to engine rev/noise to vibration. A Clarke unit may be best however as one issue with GT audio is with higher revs it loses bass and then the wind/tarmac noise gets louder / deeper.

Keep you guys posted.....

Mission Accomplished!

Working Tactile Feedback for Gas/Accelerator
Best results were accomplished with a "Clarke TST 209"
Available Here
&
Also Here

As earlier thought with the Clarke's wider range of frequencies and because it also acts like an audible speaker it would be better suited for feedback on the pedals section.

So I tested the TST 209 against a Buttkicker Advance BKA 300 but found the latter much less responsive for this purpose.
Using the centre channel you get the main engine audio from the game the majority of the time. A benifit of this is that its also distinguishing the effect from using the LFE. Some directional audio from cars passing will filter into the centre channel, just like sometimes happens on your speakers but this isnt a problem.
By using the "CENTRE" channel you avoid any vibrations from either LEFT/RIGHT audio effects. An example is tyres on kerbs, or a car passing on the side which would be felt if just using "LEFT/RIGHT" channel from the 5.1/7.1 decoding. Therefore I recommend doing this via the "CENTRE" channel than like some of us previously on the forums have done going with the typical LFE channel.


Setup To Achieve This:

• Using the PS3 in multi output mode combined with your AV audio and 1x Optical & 1x HDMI output.
• Add a secondary amplifer
• Use Dolby/DTS decoding mode
• Connect the TST 209 to "CENTRE" speaker channel
• Calibrate with various EQ or Volume level to taste

* Optionally if supported USE PRE OUTS on AV Amp 1. The advantage of this would allow an additional "Graphic Equiliser" to be used prior to the secondary amplification. Ths method would mean both the "Centre Speaker" & "Clarke TST202" would be powered by the secondary amplifer.

** I recommend giving the Corvette a go along with some of the beefier sounding cars in GT5P. Tactile effects seem particulary good in acceleration between the 4000-5000 RPM band being felt in the pedals. This feels a nice addition to anyone already using a Buttkicker and wants a distinguised feedback for their throttle response.


My Best Found Results For Tactile Immersion

So with all this testing and messing around over a long period of time. Ive achieved a high addition of tactile immersion. By having different tactile sensations between utilising both Clarke/Buttkicer devices. This was a surprise element as I expected Clarke TST units to just be like Buttkickers, they are not. I found though that experimenting with these both had their own advantages/disadvantages. So when I further experimented in using both together at the same time I found they complimented each other perfectly, albiet with some fine tunning.

Do remember the Clarke will also make an audible sound so it also acts like adding additional speakers not only enchancing your cockpit from tactile vibrations but also sonically. Therefore because of this audible sound it requires quite a bit of setting up. It is quite easy though to match volumes from different amplifers powering the different units. However I added a graphic equaliser and also more bass control with the Behringer products to allow more control of the final sound and extreme of the bass.

Going with "Stereo Tactile" utilising the front stereo output means getting matching vibration effects to the onscreen action. Such effects are felt at either side of the seat from crashes or wheels on kerbs. The LFE channel produces a deeper/stronger sensation of vibration and acts as a backup using the much lower end subwoofer frequencies. Giving a greater felt depth of tactile response over using the F/R channels also helps seperate it from the tactile units using the L/R channels. Importantly this doesnt drown out the stereo tactile effects as they can still be felt working in harmony with the Dolby/Decoding and general 5.1 or 7.1 audio used.

Lastly having a responsive feel from the pedals helps surround the player with tactile immersion and its nice this works with the accelerator and not just from the general LFE. Its more accurate this way coming from the "CEBTRE" channels decoding. Therefore with this current layout I get 3x different tactile sensations working together but each can be felt independently. Its been quite a journey and learning process but think I can put this process of my ideas for my own cockpit down as a success and certainly would recommend others to possibly consider.


CENTRE CHANNEL
1x Clarke TST 209 Pedals

LEFT CHANNEL
1x Clarke TST 209 Left OF Chair
1x Buttkicker Mini LFE Left of Chair

RIGHT CHANNEL
1x Clarke TST 209 Right Of Chair
1x Buttkicker Mini LFE Right Of Chair

LFE Channel
1x Buttkicker Advance BKA 300 Base Of Chair

Ive decided not to use a tactile device on the steering column/shelf as feel it can overpower and interrupt a players detection/sensation with feeling the FFB effects in the steering.
Besides their are to a degree vibrations from the other units working that can be felt in the steering which seem enough.

All I need to do is have final testing with this configuration also using the dual 12" Subwoofers working from the LFE channel.
This should further richen the bass sensation and help support the BKA on the LFE channel.

More on this when a faulty amplifer is replaced.

Edit: Updated Diagram:

Sorry for the late reply, i was on vacation..
PS3 -> Main Receiver which decodes everything.
Main Receiver powers my 7.1 speaker setup
Main receiver also has PRE OUTs, so i run a wire to another amp
Amp - powers my 4x Bass Shakers which are tactile units.

At one point I had a buttkicker gamer connected to the seat running of the LFE channel, but i found it it's too much shaking Just running off the Left/Right channel was enough..

Mr Latte

Okay so you use PRE OUT : FRONT L/R from your main audio amp.
Then with a secondary amp you have 4x Bass Shakers?

What are you meaning by bass shakers?
Actual Buttkickers or other brand of tactile units or just subwoofers?

Wondering what way your powering your front speakers then? Is it also from the secondary amp powering the 4x Bass Shakers. How you connect all this?

Can you do a diagram of your setup and Im curious if you have tried or compared having 2x units from the FRONT L/R audio (for stereo action directional bass effect) Also then using the other two Bass Shakes coming from the main audio amps LFE. Would this not give both directional bass from the FRONT LR and also lower end or deeper bass from the LFE channel?

However this would need another seperate amp.


Ive made great progress with my testing using the Clarke Tactile from front audio not LFE.
For me these are best with this as they act more like speakers, closer to a subwoofer than like a Buttkicker. Clarke Tactile units give much more varied tactile sensations right into high frequencies. Indeed they are more versatile than my Buttkickers. The Clarke produces, very much a foot tapping mild, yet not annoying bone tingle feedback. Its hard to explain but imagine wearing a wet shirt you can feel it stick to your body. Clarke units penetrate your skin and the effect increases bass depth perception. For me it also seems to be widening the sonics of the speakers and creating a sense of added dimension to the audio. However Im awaiting a faulty amp being replaced to get this working also with the subwoofers and also my latest ebay purchase below:

Err back to the thread topic.
I will test/compare a Clarke Tactile to a Buttkicker Mini LFE when I get the EQ delivered. It may be suitable for a role of possibly working from the FRONT L/R or Im thinking the CENTRE channel to act like a throttle action response. Using the games main "engine audio" sound.

This might work well without having to have some physical implentation relying on a pedal postion to trigger some form of audio reaction to a transducer.

It may however require an EQ to boost certain audio frequencies for the "engine sounds" and connect this to a mounted Buttkicker or Clarke. Then by having it attached directly to the front pedal section of the cockpit.

In effect this should if successful give a representation to engine rev/noise to vibration. A Clarke unit may be best however as one issue with GT audio is with higher revs it loses bass and then the wind/tarmac noise gets louder / deeper.

Keep you guys posted.....

Click to expand...

cdsoundtr

Sorry for the late reply, i was on vacation..
PS3 -> Main Receiver which decodes everything.
Main Receiver powers my 7.1 speaker setup
Main receiver also has PRE OUTs, so i run a wire to another amp
Amp - powers my 4x Bass Shakers which are tactile units.

At one point I had a buttkicker gamer connected to the seat running of the LFE channel, but i found it it's too much shaking Just running off the Left/Right channel was enough..

Click to expand...

What make/model is your reciever and what "tactile" units do you use?

I have purchased another one of those Behringer 3102 equalisers (ebay again) for seperate control of the CENTRE channel and have decided to fully match the L/R setup I have using both Clarke & Mini BK. It means about another £150 - £200 depending on prices purchased for the additional EQ and BK but might be best to have all three front channels the same. I guess Ive gone this far I may as well ensure its done right.

GT5 Prologue Engine Frequencies

• The vast majority of engine rev sounds in the game focus on using the 400Hz - 2Khz.
• Low end engine grunt varies from 20Hz - 63Hz.
• Frequencies between 80Hz - 315Hz are also used but dependant on the car how much.
• Audio ranging from 2KHz - 12.5KHz are not used that often, mainly on the sheer upper limits of the rev counter, noticable on downshifts or max revs in first.

• Lotus Evora / Parked Idle Rev Test
• 0-2000 RPM heavily uses 20Hz - 200Hz
• 2000 - 3000 RPM raises a little using 50Hz - 300Hz
• 3000 - 4000 RPM begins to shift using 63Hz - 2KHz but also now utilising more of the spectrum going beyond 12.5 KHz
• 4000 RPM+ usage of higher frequencies becomes stronger/louder and lower frequencies decrease
• Wind noise kicks in approx 60mph using 20Hz - 400Hz getting louder but using higher frequencies more as speed increases shifting

Part of the problem the game has using different cars is their difference in low end bass response that goes to both the L/R and LFE channels. Take the Viper for instance its got seriously lower rumble than some other cars. So having optimal audio/tactile for a Viper and then changing to a different car say an Imprezza would need tweeks done, mainly the input volume to the Secondary L/R amplifer for the Clarke/BK units. Thats why Ive found having an EQ allowing easy changing of the input volume and of course over the frequencies gives you more control. The only issue I have at the moment is having to run the Clarke/Mini Buttkicker on the L/R at quite high volumes to feel the sensations of cars passing either side. Perhaps when doing a proper mounting of these to the seat/cockpit section it will improve the sensations requiring less volume yet still feel them.

A great example of the L/R tactile effects is get behind an Evo which has a buzzing bee type sound and move to the Left/Right of it. You can feel the tactile sensation move across from side to side which is quite nice. Also on many cars you can feel a gear change with the varying revs which is another nice addition tactile brings.





Will follow up with more info on testing. Currently using the EQ below the monitor so I can see/detect the lights for the various frequencies lighting up. Kinda cool like a digital rev counter.
When I get the 2nd one delivered I can also monitor and compare the bass frequency output from LFE & STEREO outputs, maybe their is little difference but will be able to notice using the EQ to verify.

I think a switch option to allow my LFE connected Subs/Buttkicker to be either on L/R channels or LFE would be best. Noticed stereo music from the XMB doesnt seem to utilise the LFE channel. Having the switch option would allow L/R bass to be sent to those devices if and when needed so the choice of using either may be the best option to go for.

Mr Latte, thanks for doing the frequency tests and writing about them. I think this information will prove invaluable for those like me who have recently purchased a tactile transducer and are wondering if they should be using it on the LFE or L/R channels.

I'm going to install my Clark Synthesis TST209 tonight and start with the L/R channels to try out.

rise888

Mr Latte, thanks for doing the frequency tests and writing about them. I think this information will prove invaluable for those like me who have recently purchased a tactile transducer and are wondering if they should be using it on the LFE or L/R channels.

I'm going to install my Clark Synthesis TST209 tonight and start with the L/R channels to try out.

Click to expand...

Hi, how you getting on?
Them tests were done in GT5P so may not be the same in GT5.
You may find as T209 is more audible like a speaker than BKs are that an EQ allows you to tinker not only with how it feels but also sounds.

Their sound is a bit like how front "effect speakers" sounded on high end Yamaha surround recievers. It may help with increasing presence to your already installed speakers but may be a bit tinny sounding and needing balanced in volume to your actual audio speaker volume. As a test you will find classical music scores really benefit with light tactile. Try the Titanic soundtrack as an example, you really feel the various instruments come to life. Of course other music works well at times too.

Again using an EQ allows you to have control over these factors much better to achieve what you want.

I installed it last night and the TST209 is amazing! I must have spent 10 minutes just selecting different cars and feeling the different engine noises. The unit was definitely audible as a speaker until I turned off the BGM and decreased the treble.

I have some more pictures and a write up here:
http://www.saltywet.net/2011/03/05/final-piece-of-the-project-clark-synthesis-tst209/



I ran into some configuration snags along the way, mainly with my A/V receiver not sending any output through its pre-out to my 2nd receiver. My workaround was to use an optical cable straight to my 2nd receiver powering the TST209.

2nd issue is that I'm only getting the right-channel output from the 2nd receiver, but I've turned the balance knob on my receiver all the way to R-channel (which the TST209 is connected to) and also fiddled with the bass and treble knobs for the desired effect. It's not perfectly configured, but it's good enough for now!

I can only imagine how awesome your 8 tactile units will be in your set up! Looking forward to an update/pictures on your Project Mr Latte.

Well done, happy you like it.
Welcome to tactile immersion, maybe in the future you will get the urge to upgrade to having stereo tactile and one on the CENTRE channel.
Thats when it really starts immersing you even further.
Weird about your Reciever PREOUT, great bargins on ebay though for AV stuff, worthwile considering.