[irmopars]

Prize B will be track change to: Grand Valley

[Apmaddock]

I'm home a bit earlier than I expected, I'll be headed into the room for…

quite soon. Hope to see you there! GTA can wait!

Awesome job on the banner, Psycho. Unrequested, completely without direction, and totally perfect. Thanks a million!

[BeRandom]

Buying the car right now.

[zer05ive]

same here. nice banner, psycho!!

[TylerGiese]

I vote for penalties to be left on for d3, as i feel it curbs some of the learning required for people who may be attempting their first week. I like the idea of - full penalty system in D3, weak in D2, and off in D1. This, all based on keeping the new steward system, to keep people in line of the rules of racing.

taking that a step further: no damage in d3, light damage in d2, and full damage with pit stops for repairs in d1...seems logical to me anyway

[Handlebar]

Interesting, Tyler.

I'm in general agreement with that as well.

If it's only one or t'other, I'd take whatever the D1 majority is - as a new driver, the penalties that I get are not as a result of some over-competitive carelessness. While they're annoying, I am sure that the penalties are not the reason that I've had control issues.

D1 is pretty impressive, and if they feel it does or doesn't impact, I'll listen to that.

[ianjames25]

TylerGiese

I vote for penalties to be left on for d3, as i feel it curbs some of the learning required for people who may be attempting their first week. I like the idea of - full penalty system in D3, weak in D2, and off in D1. This, all based on keeping the new steward system, to keep people in line of the rules of racing.

taking that a step further: no damage in d3, light damage in d2, and full damage with pit stops for repairs in d1...seems logical to me anyway

I think this idea is great.

[racefan78]

I like Tyler's idea for penalties, but full damge is too much I think. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for realism, but considering the length of our races, there's not enough time to even come close to bouncing back if you have some unlucky contact and have to pit for damage. I think light damage is good across all the divisions because it punishes people for stupid driving without knocking them out of contention completely.

[ExoSphere64]

Handlebar

Interesting, Tyler.

I'm in general agreement with that as well.

If it's only one or t'other, I'd take whatever the D1 majority is - as a new driver, the penalties that I get are not as a result of some over-competitive carelessness. While they're annoying, I am sure that the penalties are not the reason that I've had control issues.

D1 is pretty impressive, and if they feel it does or doesn't impact, I'll listen to that.

There have been many interesting ideas on this subject. I can't say I prefer on or off at this point. I think it would be interesting to test the idea of shutting it down for a week or so and then get everyone's opinion. I do believe that whatever the decision is, it should be applied across the board in all divisions. There has been much afoot lately with prizing, tires, penalties and other evolutionary trends and I think the spirit of SNAIL racing has been to keep all divisions the same whatever new ideas get implemented.

[Vol Jbolaz]

Sorry, Tyler, I don't like it. I'll never be fast enough to get out of D3. And I hate that I lose so many positions in the first few corners because I'm being careful and those around me are not. Under your guidelines, I'd just barge my way through. It doesn't promote clean driving, it just permits dirty driving.

[dudeondacouch]

Good race tonight. I thought it was going to be closer at the end there, but Dab's third tire stint was utterly endless. Somebody check his pits for magic fairy dust!

[irmopars]

My times so far:
1-1: 30.447 Rank 1006
1-2: 29.792 Rank 885
1-3: 27.908 Rank 298
1-4: 28.450 Rank 295
1-5: 37.679 Rank 149

2-1: 53.739 Rank 335

How you doing Bronco I seen you in there tonight, but it didnt show any of your times.

[leadbedr]

dudeondacouch

Good race tonight. I thought it was going to be closer at the end there, but Dab's third tire stint was utterly endless. Somebody check his pits for magic fairy dust!

Yea that was a fun race. Wouldve been better with more people.
I should have closer to you and dab, but some how messed up my lap count for pits and ended up pitting 5 times.

[BeRandom]

I made so many stupid little mistakes and those all added up. Also, that GTR just eats up front tires. Gonna have to try out a different brake bias.

[TylerGiese]

Vol Jbolaz

Sorry, Tyler, I don't like it. I'll never be fast enough to get out of D3. And I hate that I lose so many positions in the first few corners because I'm being careful and those around me are not. Under your guidelines, I'd just barge my way through. It doesn't promote clean driving, it just permits dirty driving.

I get you. Ideally, with as many people snail seems to be attracting, it would be great to have a break-in, rookie league. The reason I say that is, though I'm all for your suggestion of turning off penalties to promote realism, I think it may wind up being a negative to d3, especially as this league gains even more steam/new members.

What i mean by that is; 1st week/trial joiners may very well be intimidated by the learning curve of not bumping other cars, or cutting tracks. Though flawed, the consequences of these actions are necessary, to understand the rules of racing.

I don't know if the league has enough new weekly members, as of yet, to justify the "rookie/tryout/trial league" but maybe food for thought on the future of snail?? Eventually the league may need to bring that format, to maintain veteran d3 drivers interest. This logic may also negate any potential pranksters, who ask to join, and intentionally try to ruin a d3 race, or unfamiliar rookies who unintentionally bring similar disaster to a group with plenty of established members.

30ish members now....in 3 months? What happens when, in july, there are 60, and this system isn't put in place? I think it wise, to consider Preemptive measures for the growth of this league. A bit off topic, but still relevant to the previous mentioned topics.

-.02 Tyler

p.s. just saw the "barge your way through" comment and don't quite understand. if damage is turned off, that would not permit "barging" with the steward network, if i understand correctly. intentional, or sloppy/erratic driving will most definitely result in steward disqualify, or complaint filing - leading to the same outcome. nevertheless, i still maintain my thoughts about the trial/tryout/rookie division. working as such:

rookie division: (1st-4th weekers / those with multiple complaints filed against them / etc) = no damage/full penalties

Division 3 - weak/ no penalties and limited damage

Division 2 - no penalties and limited to heavy damage

Division 1 - no penalties and heavy damage.

solution for damage needing pitstops for repair? put the end of race timer to 2:30seconds. you might think this would take too long, but think about it...how often are D1 drivers ramming each other, enough to cause damage needing a pitstop? and secondly, consider how close these races usually finish between places..does anyone in D1 consistently finish more than 30 seconds behind first place? lastly, how official is the league, if someone does take longer than 1 minute, after the leader crosses the finish line, and gets a DNF...shouldn't happen.

so...my vote is for: 2:30 second time limit at end of race, damage that actually simulates real world racing when racing at D1 (professional) level, and no ghosting...that's why we have the stewards, yes?

sorry for the long spam post, i just want to put my thoughts out there and see if any of them make sense to those involved with regulating S.N.A.I.L.

[Apmaddock]

Firstly, I believe, and always have, that the regulations for each division should be the same. No matter what division you are in, you are expected to race by the same set of rules with regards to the OLR, etc. Also, if you change divisions, you should be assured of more than just a semblance of equality when it comes to how the races are run.

Next, I couldn't imagine heavy damage ever being in use in this league for the Sunday night races. With races lasting barely over ten minutes, a pit stop ends your chances at placing ahead of anyone else who does not also take a pit stop.

There is no penalty for not getting across the finish line under the end of race timer. Your position is recorded as whatever spot you are in when the controls are taken away from you.


Finally, Congrats, Dabney! And thanks to everyone who ran in the first ever Apmaddock's Enduro Challenge! I raced like absolute but I know that those fifty laps that I put in will come in handy on Sunday. I knew going in that I would have a tough time on that track (I always do for some reason) but I figured that made the practice only all the more worthwhile.

I hope to do that again sometime, and I hope the crowd grows!

[TylerGiese]

Apmaddock

Firstly, I believe, and always have, that the regulations for each division should be the same. No matter what division you are in, you are expected to race by the same set of rules with regards to the OLR, etc. Also, if you change divisions, you should be assured of more than just a semblance of equality when it comes to how the races are run.

Next, I couldn't imagine heavy damage ever being in use in this league for the Sunday night races. With races lasting barely over ten minutes, a pit stop ends your chances at placing ahead of anyone else who does not also take a pit stop.

There is no penalty for not getting across the finish line under the end of race timer. Your position is recorded as whatever spot you are in when the controls are taken away from you.


Finally, Congrats, Dabney! And thanks to everyone who ran in the first ever Apmaddock's Enduro Challenge! I raced like absolute but I know that those fifty laps that I put in will come in handy on Sunday. I knew going in that I would have a tough time on that track (I always do for some reason) but I figured that made the practice only all the more worthwhile.

I hope to do that again sometime, and I hope the crowd grows!

...so a guy who crashes on the course deserves to place ahead of someone who doesn't? and does it really feel complete/worthwhie to be in last place, and not be able to finish something you just spent 10-15 minutes putting effort into? a system of progression seems tried and true with most things i've experienced, in regards to racng, as well as life, in general. the rules governing the league would essentially stay the same. the only thing really changing, in using this method, would be the consequences of errant actions. it should be expected of experienced racers to take more caution, when racing. increases competitiveness, among other things.

i guess we just agree to disagree. thanks for the thought, anyhow. take care.

-Tyler

[Apmaddock]

The biggest problem with heavy damage is in the cases when it is not your fault. If someone else runs into your car causing damage, you are penalized for the entire race. This is exactly the problem that Vol brought up with regards to the penalty system. In his cases, he was penalized when he was run into while he was trying to avoid someone else's accident. He also took damage during that incident.

Oh, and a guy who gets into an accident deserves a chance to make up for the lost time. A guy who gets run into doesn't deserve to have his entire race ruined…especially when he only gets those two hours per week.

Regarding being able to finish a race or not: typically, if you're alone in last place, often you just want the race to be over so that you can get on to the next one and give it another go. That said, thirty seconds is normally enough to finish, anyway. If you're more than thirty seconds behind in a 10 minute race, you're way out of that one. That said, again, I've noticed that some rooms are already running more than that, anyway. We're just trying to keep things rolling along and get the races done in the two scheduled hours.

Agree to disagree? Nah. I'm too stubborn.

[TylerGiese]

Apmaddock

The biggest problem with heavy damage is in the cases when it is not your fault. If someone else runs into your car causing damage, you are penalized for the entire race. This is exactly the problem that Vol brought up with regards to the penalty system. In his cases, he was penalized when he was run into while he was trying to avoid someone else's accident. He also took damage during that incident.

Agree to disagree? I disagree. I'm too stubborn.

in the case of Vol, he was racing in D3. I was in those races, as well. I can't speak from experience of D1, but I'm thinking it safe to assume that our D3 division is not nearly as experienced as D1. Also: That being said... D3 is, every week, taking in new members, who have NEVER raced a S.N.A.I.L. race in their life. This is running a very high risk of unfamiliar, new members causing incidents on track, thus subjecting veteran/familiar racers to amateurs mistakes. this is why my suggestion for D3 would be to, perhaps, turn damage off, unless going the route of creating a "rookie leaugue" that I spoke about above.

As for D1 drivers...I will assume most of you drivers are, at minimum, enthusiasts of the sport of racing. You've obviously performed at a level, in game, which requires knowing the ins and outs of apex's, clean passing, race lines etc.. I will also assume that most of you have seen just how cautious and strategic real world race drivers are. the level of cocentration/consciousness required to be considered for a professional (in this case D1) driver, i believe, should be reserved for those that understand these notions thoroughly.

In summary, higher level of competition also requires higher level of concentration. if someone impacts you, and you are not at fault, just as in the real world, you still suffer consequences. you likely won't win the race at this point (not likely you would if damage were off either??). you will, however, appreciate just how cautious that a race driver needs to be, and therefore not make the same mistake next race..

racing is about so much more than which driver has the most athleticism, to drive a car fastest around a track.. it's nearly 50% about the projection of unforseen events. so "XYZ" knocked you out of last race...you have 5 more races, in that sunday night alone, to prove your mettle. who knows, it may happen to "ABC" next round. that, right there, is the half of the equation missing from this league. Sure, mistakes will happen, but it only adds to the excitement. you'll be upset that "XYZ" hit you. He might even do it again, unintentionally. in this case, he's likely to take last place in the race 2x, thus, likely, being relegated down to a lower division. it all works itself out naturally. then there's the "file a complaint" already in play with this league. if "XYZ" hits you twice, and somehow manages not to take last place that week...i certainly wouldn't let it slide and take the hit, down to division 2. what i just described shouldn't even be relevant for an experienced D1 driver, but just to be clear....

it may be that snail isn't striving for simulation of sport, and i'm ok with that too. But i would bet my bottom dollar, that if everyone put their mindset into what i've just described, they would get MUCH more out of this simulator, as well as the league. In my opinoin, it's time to throw the pre-established thought that "i'm the best and i win always" out the window, and start to appreciate that even the best suffer unfortunate events in autosport. Anyone remember Senna? RIP. I don't want to sound snide, but if we wanted a "video game" experience, we wouldn't all be here, in a "OLR" regulated, sanctioned body...we'd be roaming the Forza, public, bumper car for children, lobbies.


edit: for those of you in D1...what exactly is it you're racing towards, since you're already at the pinnacle of the league? ask yourself what you really have to lose, at that level of play, and what might make it more exciting than a predictable: "well "ABC" won the last 10 sunday's in a row, so what are the chances of him losing tonight?"...well..with this implementation, things would certainly become much more strategic on passes and potentially catastrophic to a race. what's that equal? experience and MUCH more respect of the sport, often missing from the box art of these simulators.. with their time trial, tuning setup, and mechanical leaderboards.

goodnight.

[zer05ive]

Wow, lots of good discussion Tyler and Ap last night! I'm not in D3 or D1 so I can't address the questions posed to those drivers. Let's here what they have to say. However, can address the proposition of a "rookie league". I'm not in favor of it. While we do have new members join us all the time, we don't have so many as to form a separate division for them. There were lots of other points brought up that had merit. Let's see what the other snails have to say about them.