feydrautha
Premium
- 604
- Georgia
- fydrautha
Everyone get ready for a lot of work. Camber works now. All of my tunes feel awful now....
1.09 update physics changes....
- Thread starter feydrautha
- 407 comments
- 23,832 views
- 2,232
- Lincolnshire
- PleaseD1e
It's great that camber is fixed, but damn annoying when it screws up all the tuning work done on the cars.
I'm in a racing series, so now my car will need a complete re-tune before the next race. I'd got it handling pretty sweet and things were looking good.
Ah well, it's fixed and that's the main thing. 👍
I'm in a racing series, so now my car will need a complete re-tune before the next race. I'd got it handling pretty sweet and things were looking good.
Ah well, it's fixed and that's the main thing. 👍
- 2,232
- Lincolnshire
- PleaseD1e
Indeed.
I've done some testing since the update and I can't get the camber to work for me. I'm driving the Megane which is FF and adding camber doesn't help.
Overall I'm slightly slower than usual (3 - 4 tenths) so either something is slightly different or I was just tired.
I'll try again soon.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Its going to need a whole new setup to work with camber from what I'm hearing, slapping on some angle won't give you any advantage if the suspension is tuned to work with 0.0Indeed.
I've done some testing since the update and I can't get the camber to work for me. I'm driving the Megane which is FF and adding camber doesn't help.
Overall I'm slightly slower than usual (3 - 4 tenths) so either something is slightly different or I was just tired.
I'll try again soon.
I will message you with any findings when I get the chance to have a play
- 252
- UK
- jules283
I welcome the fix to camber, but I do think PD's new default suspension settings are a quick fix option, targeting maybe 50 or 60 difficult/ill handling cars but increasing understeer for many other cars which were working just fine.
Take the DB7 as an example, pre 1.09 camber was 0/0 at default and toe was 0/+0.20 , but now default settings for this car have camber at 0.5/1.5 and toe at 0/+0.60. These settings will increase understeer.
All default settings have changed in a direction leading toward more understeer.
Maybe PD could have altered cars individually. Very time consuming though.
I changed the DB7 back to the older default settings and all was well ( and improved too ).
Still, for most of us the older generic default settings for toe and camber should be easy enough to remember or acquire.
Take the DB7 as an example, pre 1.09 camber was 0/0 at default and toe was 0/+0.20 , but now default settings for this car have camber at 0.5/1.5 and toe at 0/+0.60. These settings will increase understeer.
All default settings have changed in a direction leading toward more understeer.
Maybe PD could have altered cars individually. Very time consuming though.
I changed the DB7 back to the older default settings and all was well ( and improved too ).
Still, for most of us the older generic default settings for toe and camber should be easy enough to remember or acquire.
- 864
- NorCal
- oppositelock27
Edit: Oops, treed while I was typing.
Not sure if this has been mentioned in another thread, but the default alignments are radically different now. I went through my garage and checked the defaults on about 40 cars, and came up with this:
Most road cars:
Front camber: 0.5 or 0.0
Rear camber: 1.5 or 0.0
Front toe: 0.00
Rear toe: 0.60
So far every FR and MR I've found has the 0.5/1.5 camber setup. AWD cars can have either 0.5/1.5 or 0.0/0.0. All the FFs I've checked were 0.0/0.0.
Most race cars:
Front camber: 1.5
Rear camber: 3.5
Front toe: -0.50
Rear toe: 1.00
The most radical change on both road and race cars appears to be the added rear toe, up from 0.20 on most cars. I've been a fan of using lots of rear toe-in for added stability, to the point where several people on GTP called it excessive. I wonder how they feel about this. The rear camber bias is also a bit interesting, not sure what conclusions to draw from that quite yet.
Most road cars:
Front camber: 0.5 or 0.0
Rear camber: 1.5 or 0.0
Front toe: 0.00
Rear toe: 0.60
So far every FR and MR I've found has the 0.5/1.5 camber setup. AWD cars can have either 0.5/1.5 or 0.0/0.0. All the FFs I've checked were 0.0/0.0.
Most race cars:
Front camber: 1.5
Rear camber: 3.5
Front toe: -0.50
Rear toe: 1.00
The most radical change on both road and race cars appears to be the added rear toe, up from 0.20 on most cars. I've been a fan of using lots of rear toe-in for added stability, to the point where several people on GTP called it excessive. I wonder how they feel about this. The rear camber bias is also a bit interesting, not sure what conclusions to draw from that quite yet.
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- 406
- Victoria, B.C.
- skypilotrv4
OK well here is a funny thing!!
I got all excited about having camber working and so I set up my trusty NSX-R LM road car with 1.5 front and 1.0 negative rear.
I entered the online race for 5 laps of Suzuka which I can usually win if I drive an impeccable race with no boo-boos.
I am using an Aarakis Tune which I like on this car with ZERO camber. Downforce is 310 front and 500 rear.
Away I went and won the first race running the above camber settings. My total race time=10:45 for five laps
The second race running Front 2.0 and 0.8 rear went OK also, Race Time 10:43 for the 5 laps
I reduced the rear camber because the rear end got pretty loose on acceleration.
The third race went Ok also using Front 2.5 and 0.8 rear .........Another 10:43 for 5 laps
The fourth race, I thought OK, lets go back to ZERO camber and try that. I was shocked to find my time was 10:38!?!?
The fifth and sixth races were all done at Zero camber and all times were 10:38!! HEY, WAIT A MINUTE! Camber is supposed to allow you to be faster, right? Well it is definitely not working in this ONLINE RACE.
Very interesting eh?
Mustangxr
- 864
- NorCal
- oppositelock27
Interesting results. I'm not nearly consistent enough to use lap times to draw solid conclusions, so I usually tune by feel. I've noticed that using zero camber results in a little bit of understeer on entry but otherwise drives fine. So far the handful of cars I've tested feel best with between 1 to 2 degrees, which conforms to what I remember from GT5.
332i
(Banned)
- 855
- Morocco
- yadeegson
You can't just add camber to your setup that used 0/0 camber. You have to put a setup together that works with camber. THEN you will see gains. I'm am picking up time just about everywhere. I think you're not used to using GT with camber anymore either. IMO people have to learn to get through the middle of the turn again, rather than that feeling off hanging the hell on and aimlessly waiting for it to break loose any second like with the 0 camber setups. Even the people who are putting down basically the same lap times are agreeing the cars are more predictable at least and don't feel like they're zipping around a turn about to top over. 0/0 felt so unnatural. If you're on a wheel, you're definitely going to be faster with a new tune that works well with camber.
As I said, I think it is a matter of you being comfortable with your old setups and simply adding camber to them from 0/0, not molding a whole new tune to be used with camber...which seems to be the quicker way around anywhere so far. It just requires starting from the ground-up.
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Thorin Cain
Premium
- 2,296
- Glasgow
- THORIN-RAYVEN
I run a similar set up on my LM Prototype than with my NSX Type R '02 and I have made a few changes to that car which halped me. I used 1.7 Front 2.0 rear and had to use a little more toe out up front and slightly less toe in at the rear and soften the roll bars a touch. I also had to re-work the LSD a bit. I raised the acceleration and the initial quite a bit and finished up by dropping the braking a bit.
Old settings for these were ABR 4/5 now 3/4. toe was -0.10/0.04 now -0.12/0.04 and LSD was I think 6/14/12(forgot to write it down and my memory 's not what it used to be.) and now at 12/24/10. I this information can be of some use to you. It's not the same tune or the same car so don't make the exact same changes expect a miracle, I only offer this information as a guide as to what changes that I felt aided me to get a really familiar car to behave like it did before and improve my lap times a little.
I expect that with more changes I can achieve even better results but I have a lot of tunes to get through so I'm not going to spend too long now eeking out every last tenth if I have made an improvement already. It'll be on to the next one and then back to focus on my favourites when the rest are updated to account for physics changes.
It is going to be a lot of work as @feydrautha said in the OP but there's enough collective knowledge in this forum to make it a smooth transition. A little patience and a whole lot of fun later it will be better than it was before.
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
All this ‘camber needs to be set up with the other suspension components’ might be true if you’re trying to build a ‘perfect’ tune, but doesn’t mean you can’t just add a bit of camber to an existing tune and see if it adds or reduces grip.
If you know the car/track combination well enough you’ll be able to feel any differences easily enough and you should be able to see the differences in your speed vs your ghost.
No need to overcomplicate stuff... given previous experiences, PD physics are very unlikely to work much like real life.
If you know the car/track combination well enough you’ll be able to feel any differences easily enough and you should be able to see the differences in your speed vs your ghost.
No need to overcomplicate stuff... given previous experiences, PD physics are very unlikely to work much like real life.
- 2,232
- Lincolnshire
- PleaseD1e
The problem that I'm personally finding (I'm tuning an FF car) is that tuning by feel simply doesn't work anymore, or at least not for me. I've tried tuning by feel many times with GT6, I have made some cars feel nicer to drive, yet they are producing slower lap times which is really odd. For me at least, 'feel' isn't providing me a quick car.
I tried various combo's of camber yesterday, none of which seemed to help the lap times fall. However, I will admit that the base tune was one which I made prior to the 1.09 update, it wasn't a brand new tune starting from scratch and this 'may' make a difference. I'm still surprised that the car didn't respond to some additional camber though.
I'm not so sure that this has been fixed. I think that PD have just screwed around with the defaults, added camber to the cars and the tuners will end up removing it...... Only testing and time will tell.
If anyone knows how to tweak an FF car to utilise camber settings effectively I'll gladly test your work. I'm currently racing in the BTCC series, my car is the RenaultSport Megane R.S. Tropy '11. The series has limited me to 305BHP and 1260kg. Aero is not permitted and the tyres are sports soft. The next track on the race calendar is Indianapolis Road Course. The only aid allowed is ABS.
Too true.
- 66
- Chicago
- MAXXSTER77
Yesterday, I discovered that ALL my cars have lost 2 miles per hour--I also confirmed this with other drivers. Somebody should be horse-whipped as we spend hours and hours tuning to get best lap times and keeping records.
- 2,232
- Lincolnshire
- PleaseD1e
Well camber was working on FWD back in GT5, it wasn't correct (hardly anything was), but it was possible to improve the car with additional camber. I agree that the physics are not lifelike, PD have never managed to get it right. I'm not sure how much involvement KW have had with the suspension physics (probably very little), but whatever is going on behind the scenes isn't translating to correct physics in the game.FWD physics in GT5/6 are broken, and I doubt adding camber will make much of a difference
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
I assume you're already using the usual tuning tricks to reduce understeer - high front/low rear ride height, high -ve rear toe, min LSD decel etc?
To be honest, I've never bother with the FWD cars in GT games. I try a couple when the game 1st comes out to see if PD have fixed the fundamentals, find they are still ****, and forget about them.
Thorin Cain
Premium
- 2,296
- Glasgow
- THORIN-RAYVEN
In a straight line I take it?
I suspect it has a lot to do with the improved surface contact portion in the physics update. To me the cars display a higher susceptiblity to the effects of "virtual" gravity and this is how the effects of running over kerbs, cornerstones and bumps have been altered. I know it sounds odd but I have noticed that the cars ride the kerb better and don't lift as much if hit too hard as well as settling down a lot quicker once the car returns to the track.
If this is the case and I'm not just imagining it, it means that although the mass of the cars stay the same, the weight of the cars have now increased
- 2,623
- Pompey
- CyKosis1973
The rear camber bias actually reflects most modern cars. Pretty much everything I fond myself sat behind in traffic has more rear camber than front. I believe this is done to provoke understeer, as manufacturers would rather you understeer off the road, rather than oversteer right in the middle of it..!! As for the rear toe, I've no idea why they upped it to +.060...
{Cy}
PS - As always, happy to be corrected...
- 2,232
- Lincolnshire
- PleaseD1e
Yes, I've done all the usual tips and tricks for the FWD as well as some other 'experimental' ideas too. I've just about tried it all pre 1.09. I recently gave my settings to a friend that's also running in my series, he thought that his tune was good and then he tried mine which was about 7-tenths quicker a lap around Laguna Seca.
My tune is good and it works, but obviously I'm seeking perfection, I won the title last season (in a difficult to drive Volvo C30) and I'd love to be at the top of the standings this season too.I'll try starting from default settings again on a new tuning sheet. I know that this is what I should be doing anyway since changing one suspension setting can affect all the others and nobody knows for sure what 1.09 has done to the game. Sadly the release notes for the updates are usually very sparse, it would be great if they could document the changes better.
My testing is always in the same car, I know the car well and if the game has improved in someway I will hopefully find the answer. I'm still very optimistic about the whole thing though.
That's what surprised me too. I have a terrible habit of running lots of toe, but never that much.
Will we see another update soon correcting the 1.09 update I wonder? It has been known.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
So that's like, 1% difference on a car that does 200mph? Which is quite within the limits of say, engine performance variations between night and day, warm/cold day, high/low humidity, different brands of fuel etc etc
Or perhaps the cars are going the same speed, but the speedometer has been calibrated. Most speedometers have a tolerance of around ±10%
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
The 1st thing I do when tuning is remove all the +ve rear toe and set LSD decel to minimum. If the car over rotates on entry I'll add a bit back in until I get a balance I like, but more often than not, most cars still don't rotate enough and need higher front ride height/-ve rear toe.
There are very few cars that need +ve toe as all it does is induce understeer and make the cars feel dead. Some MR and RR cars do need it, but +0.60 is ridiculously high... the highest I've ever used is +0.20.
- 156
- United Kingdom
I've heard that too (the understeer thing). It's really obvious on Smart cars. The rear wheels look normal but the front ones are almost positive cambered!
have they really fixed it? cars shouldn't run more camber on the rear, and a +0.60° angle of toe seems a lot.
You seem knowledgeable, the toe description is wrong in GT6, isn't it?
pics/links or it didn't happen... just went out in the street to check your claim and nope, no camber on the front or back, maybe a little toe out on a few cars.
it's one of the documented change, reduced speed for a few cars.
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332i
(Banned)
- 855
- Morocco
- yadeegson
That's because you're running zero camber, which creates way more drag.
- 66
- Chicago
- MAXXSTER77
