Gen 5 Dodge Viper

[Chikane_GTR]

Street and Racing Technology (SRT®) brand’s flagship performance machine returns with more power and performance, superior craftsmanship, new technologies and creature comforts

• Two new models include SRT® Viper and SRT Viper GTS
• All-aluminum, mid-engine 8.4-liter V-10 delivers an estimated 640 horsepower and 600 lb.-ft. of torque – the most torque of any naturally aspirated sports car engine in the world
• Chassis enhancements bring 50 percent improvement in torsional stiffness
• Triple-digit weight reduction results in Viper best power-to-weight ratio
• Standard safety features include electronic multistage stability control, traction control and new 4-channel anti-lock brake system (ABS)
• All-new, innovative interior designs set new standards with premium materials, new technologies and superior craftsmanship
• All-new carbon-fiber and aluminum skin is sculpted for high-speed stability and a slippery .364 drag coefficient (Cd)
• Timeless exterior design incorporates iconic Viper styling cues with a contemporary execution

Dodge Viper 2013 Coupe

 

[Downhill Dino]

Can't wait! Always loved the beast. I wonder what it shall look like. I just hope they don't give it taillights like the latest Charger. It's cool and all, but seen on a Viper. I wonder what SRT will make out of it though... I'll definitely be watching the "car news" around April!

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Rumors are floating of a 8.7 liter motor.
http://ca.autoblog.com/2011/10/27/next-gen-viper-may-get-8-7-litre-v10/

 

[Camaroyenko]

I read a couple years ago that Dodge was discontinuing the Viper. I'm gonna hunt down that source and tell them to go @&*% themselves. LOL

 

[ExigeEvan]

Rumors are floating of a 8.7 liter motor.
http://ca.autoblog.com/2011/10/27/next-gen-viper-may-get-8-7-litre-v10/

If they do that I'd pity the engineering team for their poor job.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

If they do that I'd pity the engineering team for their poor job.

Why?

 

[YSSMAN]

If they do that I'd pity the engineering team for their poor job.

I know how you feel. I read that displacement and I was all like...

But then I remembered that Team Viper really doesn't care, and that we're over thinking a car that will probably be so entirely ridiculous that we've missed the point.

 

[Tornado]

If they do that I'd pity the engineering team for their poor job.

Because Viper owners care, yes?

 

[Zenith]

If they do that I'd pity the engineering team for their poor job.

Who cares? You want efficiency? Go buy a Subaru. This is a Viper. It may have a low displacement to output ratio (an absolutely worthless data point), but the raw torque and massive output will blast almost anything else into the middle of last week. You were expecting something else?

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Who cares? You want efficiency? Go buy a Subaru. This is a Viper. It may have a low displacement to output ratio (an absolutely worthless data point), but the raw torque and massive output will blast almost anything else into the middle of last week. You were expecting something else?

Yes, something that can be driven without racing license and perhaps even in the rain.

 

[Jim Prower]

It's called "Self control." In fact, every Viper I've ever seen on the street has been driven fairly gingerly.

 

[Robin]

I hope their idea of a new generation is not taking the old car and adding some new bits. The 8.7 litre motor sounds ridiculously unnecessary... I like it!

 

[TheCracker]

Who cares? You want efficiency? Go buy a Subaru.

great example!

 

[ExigeEvan]

Why?

Because Viper owners care, yes?

Who cares? You want efficiency? Go buy a Subaru. This is a Viper. It may have a low displacement to output ratio (an absolutely worthless data point), but the raw torque and massive output will blast almost anything else into the middle of last week. You were expecting something else?

I know how you feel. I read that displacement and I was all like...

*snip*


But then I remembered that Team Viper really doesn't care, and that we're over thinking a car that will probably be so entirely ridiculous that we've missed the point.

Who cares? You want efficiency? Go buy a Subaru. This is a Viper. It may have a low displacement to output ratio (an absolutely worthless data point), but the raw torque and massive output will blast almost anything else into the middle of last week. You were expecting something else?

Personally, I can't see how a team of engineers, given the option of a plethora of new technologies, would choose to improve a car by increasing the displacement to new levels of pointless.

I'm not suggesting the engine needs to be more efficient, or more refined. But if they wanted to add more power they had many options available that didn't involve decreasing the efficiency and increasing the weight.

I was expecting more power, I was expecting an ever more absurd driving experience, but a power plant improvement that seems to have consisted of "guhhh lets make that big bigger, yuh" is just disappointing to me.

 

[Exorcet]

Personally, I can't see how a team of engineers, given the option of a plethora of new technologies, would choose to improve a car by increasing the displacement to new levels of pointless.

No good engineer thinks like that. They're not going to say "hey look this is new, so it's good, so let's use it!". What an engineer care about is what works. If making the engine 5000000000000 cubic inches is the best way to make the car faster, that's what's done.

The 2003 Viper bored out to 585 ci made over 800 hp

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1028643_hennesseys-viper-venom-800r

What self respecting engineer would turn that down that possibility because it was too easy to make (how is it any easier/simpler than anything else)?

On top of that, why does increasing displacement have to be mutually exclusive with anything else? The last Viper had a displacement bump and the world's first variable valve timing OHV engine.

 

[TheCracker]

What self respecting engineer would turn that down that possibility because it was too easy to make?

A lazy engineer?

 

[Exorcet]

A lazy engineer?

No, the lazy engineer would be the one who assumes that by throwing new technology into something, it will work better.


In any case, I have two hopes for the Viper

1. It goes back to making the ALMS and Le Mans it's property

2. ACR version with with sub 3000 lbs weight and 150% increase in downforce (very do able since the old car never used a proper diffuser).

 

[ExigeEvan]

No good engineer thinks like that. They're not going to say "hey look this is new, so it's good, so let's use it!". What an engineer care about is what works. If making the engine 5000000000000 cubic inches is the best way to make the car faster, that's what's done.

The new, so new infact it's in economy cars , technology does work. Again, I don't see how increasing displacement, decreasing efficiency and increasing mass, would seem a good idea.

The 2003 Viper bored out to 585 ci made over 800 hp
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1028643_hennesseys-viper-venom-800r
What self respecting engineer would turn that down that possibility because it was too easy to make (how is it any easier/simpler than anything else)?

Too easy? It took them 12 weeks. "Had to modify all the internals". And then they stuck a body-kit on it that I'd guess hasn't even been wind-tunnel or CFD tested to the 230 mph they claim. And the suspension and brakes aren't even mentioned.

This isn't good engineering, it's a big-stick fight.

On top of that, why does increasing displacement have to be mutually exclusive with anything else? The last Viper had a displacement bump and the world's first variable valve timing OHV engine.

Wow, VVT on an engine architecture abandoned by most. Welcome to the 90s...

A lazy engineer?

Or a single minded accountant/marketing department.


I'm not doubting the ability of the engineers, or the unique selling point of the Viper and it's tradition. But someone signing the cheques is being very single-minded and very droll.

No, the lazy engineer would be the one who assumes that by throwing new technology into something, it will work better.

New technology that is in budget economy cars, pull the other leg

 

[Exorcet]

increasing displacement

OK, they might do this

decreasing efficiency

Who said that?

increasing mass

Is this implied anywhere?
1992 - 711 lb
1996 - ~650 lb
2002 - ~615 lb
2003 - >600 lb(?)
2008 - ~2003 weight

Also, Saleen S7 427 ci V-8 = 440 lb, 550 to 750 hp
BMW M5, 383 ci = 530 lb, 500 hp
Audi R8 V-10, 560 hp for 560 lb
Corvette V-8 = 450 lb for 500 hp
Displacement =/=weight

Too easy? It took them 12 weeks. "Had to modify all the internals". And then they stuck a body-kit on it that I'd guess hasn't even been wind-tunnel or CFD tested to the 230 mph they claim. And the suspension and brakes aren't even mentioned.

This isn't good engineering, it's a big-stick fight.

The Venom example was posted here as nothing more than a source showing that displacement increase = benefits. You're the one coming in here knocking a displacement up. Why can't Dodge increase volume, and create a totally new engine around that is thoroughly optimized to meet performance goals. An engine that is in the end, more efficient, powerful, and with a wider powerband.

Wow, VVT on an engine architecture abandoned by most. Welcome to the 90s...

Again, you're the one who assumed that the Viper engine will be simple/under engineered. I'm just showing you how unfounded your assumption is.
BTW, OHV is lighter than competitors, abandoned or not. It's a good engine configuration and one I hope doesn't get left behind because of marketing departments screaming about power per liter, which means nothing.


I'm not doubting the ability of the engineers, or the unique selling point of the Viper and it's tradition. But someone signing the cheques is being very single-minded and very droll.

New technology that is budget economy cars, pull the other leg

Your original post says new technology, but nothing about economy cars. BTW, said new technology being from economy cars changes nothing. A good engineer does something for a reason, not because he sees someone else using something.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Who said that?

No-one. It's a simple assumption, and one I'll stand by. Unless the Viper team have an Ace up their sleeve I don't see why they'd increase the displacement unless they were just looking for a power increase while sacrificing a real, or relative to others, increase in fuel efficiency.

Is this implied anywhere?
1992 - 711 lb
1996 - ~650 lb
2002 - ~615 lb
2003 - >600 lb(?)
2008 - ~2003 weight

Also, Saleen S7 427 ci V-8 = 440 lb, 550 to 750 hp
BMW M5, 383 ci = 530 lb, 500 hp
Audi R8 V-10, 560 hp for 560 lb
Corvette V-8 = 450 lb for 500 hp
Displacement =/=weight

I'd like to see your source link, please. Simply because, engine weights are very easy to manipulate even by the original source. Fluid levels, auxiliary systems and transmission weights can all be included/excluded to make a new aluminium block look more advantageous. The fact remains a bigger engine will weight more if made from the same material. And will only weight marginally less if more advanced materials are used.

The Venom example was posted here as nothing more than a source showing that displacement increase = benefits. You're the one coming in here knocking a displacement up. Why can't Dodge increase volume, and create a totally new engine around that is thoroughly optimized to meet performance goals. An engine that is in the end, more efficient, powerful, and with a wider powerband.

Increase displacement, increased power. I'm not arguing that one bit.

But there are better ways of doing it, which is why just about everyone else is doing it. If Dodge were creating a new engine and increasing the displacement I would be surprised, and would congratulate the effort. But I don't see them having nearly enough budget to afford it.

If you have evidence it's going to be bigger, more efficient, more powerful and with a wider power band I'd be interested in reading it.

Again, you're the one who assumed that the Viper engine will be simple/under engineered. I'm just showing you how unfounded your assumption is.
BTW, OHV is lighter than competitors, abandoned or not. It's a good engine configuration and one I hope doesn't get left behind because of marketing departments screaming about power per liter, which means nothing.

The Viper engine has always been under engineered. That is it's unique sales point, simplicity. It's the complete opposite of the Nissan GTR in that respect, surely you realise that?

OHV is lighter, and a less capable engine architecture. It's like saying cardboard is a better building material than concrete. You can, and people do, build structures out of cardboard, but it's a lot more of a compromise with some benefit in cost and complexity.

Your original post says new technology, but nothing about economy cars. BTW, said new technology being from economy cars changes nothing. A good engineer does something for a reason, not because he sees someone else using something.

And you assumed new technology meant high costs and unreliability.

Engineers often do something because someone else does, it's called competition. But engineers are also employees of someone with a far bigger wallet and power.

 

[Exorcet]

No-one. It's a simple assumption, and one I'll stand by. Unless the Viper team have an Ace up their sleeve I don't see why they'd increase the displacement unless they were just looking for a power increase while sacrificing a real, or relative to others, increase in fuel efficiency.

Fuel economy of the car or engine? Either way, it depends on more than the displacement.

I'd like to see your source link, please. Simply because, engine weights are very easy to manipulate even by the original source. Fluid levels, auxiliary systems and transmission weights can all be included/excluded to make a new aluminium block look more advantageous. The fact remains a bigger engine will weight more if made from the same material. And will only weight marginally less if more advanced materials are used.

Again, displacement is not size. The 585 ci Viper and 512 ci Viper have the same engine block, the engines are just as big (assuming that when Hennessey added all the other stuff, none of the parts became 3 times as big).

Noted that engine weights can be manipulated.

The Saleen and Audi sources are Motortrend. The Z06 and M5 sources are numbers I remember from a source I can't find (I can find the Z06 number in a few other places though). Feel free to disregard those two if you're like.

But there are better ways of doing it, which is why just about everyone else is doing it. If Dodge were creating a new engine and increasing the displacement I would be surprised, and would congratulate the effort. But I don't see them having nearly enough budget to afford it.

What makes those other ways better? How do they fit in with what Dodge is trying to do? What is Dodge trying to do anyway (besides power up, which is fairly safe to assume)?

If you have evidence it's going to be bigger, more efficient, more powerful and with a wider power band I'd be interested in reading it.

Why do I need to. All I'm saying is that the engine can have increased displacement and be better in those three areas. That basically describes the jump from Viper GTS to Viper SRT-10.

The Viper engine has always been under engineered. That is it's unique sales point, simplicity. It's the complete opposite of the Nissan GTR in that respect, surely you realise that?

No I don't agree at all.

OHV is lighter, and a less capable engine architecture. It's like saying cardboard is a better building material than concrete. You can, and people do, build structures out of cardboard, but it's a lot more of a compromise with some benefit in cost and complexity.

And you assumed new technology meant high costs and unreliability

My fault on assuming that you mean "high tech, high cost", but at no time did I mention reliability.

Engineers often do something because someone else does, it's called competition.

And they'll do it because it works, not because someone else is doing it.

 

[Tornado]

No-one. It's a simple assumption, and one I'll stand by. Unless the Viper team have an Ace up their sleeve I don't see why they'd increase the displacement unless they were just looking for a power increase while sacrificing a real, or relative to others, increase in fuel efficiency.


I'd like to see your source link, please. Simply because, engine weights are very easy to manipulate even by the original source. Fluid levels, auxiliary systems and transmission weights can all be included/excluded to make a new aluminium block look more advantageous. The fact remains a bigger engine will weight more if made from the same material. And will only weight marginally less if more advanced materials are used.

Increase displacement, increased power. I'm not arguing that one bit.

But there are better ways of doing it, which is why just about everyone else is doing it. If Dodge were creating a new engine and increasing the displacement I would be surprised, and would congratulate the effort. But I don't see them having nearly enough budget to afford it.

If you have evidence it's going to be bigger, more efficient, more powerful and with a wider power band I'd be interested in reading it.


The Viper engine has always been under engineered. That is it's unique sales point, simplicity. It's the complete opposite of the Nissan GTR in that respect, surely you realise that?

OHV is lighter, and a less capable engine architecture. It's like saying cardboard is a better building material than concrete. You can, and people do, build structures out of cardboard, but it's a lot more of a compromise with some benefit in cost and complexity.



And you assumed new technology meant high costs and unreliability.

Engineers often do something because someone else does, it's called competition. But engineers are also employees of someone with a far bigger wallet and power.

Is there anything from this that isn't based in whole or in part on the same old pretentious European willy waving? Because that seems to be about the entirety of your argument.


For example, it is damn hard to take anything else you say seriously when you compare OHC and OHV valvetrains by saying the former is cement and the latter is cardboard.

 

[homeforsummer]

All I care about is whether they make it look good again. Never liked the current generation Viper whatever they did with it. Original RT/10 and GTS were gorgeous.

Oh, and hope they fix the interior, which has been awful in every generation.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Fuel economy of the car or engine? Either way, it depends on more than the displacement.

Of the engine, as that's the key point we're discussing. But if the Viper is pushing to CFRP body then I'd see it a fair trade off.

Again, displacement is not size. The 585 ci Viper and 512 ci Viper have the same engine block, the engines are just as big (assuming that when Hennessey added all the other stuff, none of the parts became 3 times as big).

But a lot of parts do. Internals, fuel supply, cooling system all have to increase.

What makes those other ways better? How do they fit in with what Dodge is trying to do? What is Dodge trying to do anyway (besides power up, which is fairly safe to assume)?

The other ways are often lighter and offer greater efficiency. I personally think the Viper is being stubbornly steered to be as big as a contrast to "over engineered" cars as economically possible.

Why do I need to. All I'm saying is that the engine can have increased displacement and be better in those three areas. That basically describes the jump from Viper GTS to Viper SRT-10.

You don't need to, you've not claimed it as fact. I simply asked.

My fault on assuming that you mean "high tech, high cost", but at no time did I mention reliability.

No good engineer thinks like that. They're not going to say "hey look this is new, so it's good, so let's use it!". What an engineer care about is what works. If making the engine 5000000000000 cubic inches is the best way to make the car faster, that's what's done.

And they'll do it because it works, not because someone else is doing it.

The new tech works, so why aren't they using it?

Is there anything from this that isn't based in whole or in part on the same old pretentious European willy waving? Because that seems to be about the entirety of your argument.

European? Why not Japanese? Korean? Mexican? Everyone is moving forward with engine tech, why isn't the Viper being allowed to do so?

For example, it is damn hard to take anything else you say seriously when you compare OHC and OHV valvetrains by saying the former is cement and the latter is cardboard.

I have respect for cardboard.

Christchruch's cardboard cathedral
http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=17239

Cardboard Pallets, upto 4 metric tonnes.
http://www.cardboardpalletcompany.com.au/cardboard_pallets.html

 

[Tornado]

You keep throwing around buzzwords like "moving forward" and "better engineering" as if increasing the Viper's engine displacement is objectively bad, so how about you actually say why instead of climbing up on your pedestal and spitting on everyone who disagrees?

 

[ExigeEvan]

You keep throwing around buzzwords like "moving forward" and "better engineering" as if increasing the Viper's engine displacement is objectively bad, so how about you actually say why instead of climbing up on your pedestal and spitting on everyone who disagrees?

I already have said why. If you haven't noticed the numerous reasons I've given why don't you step out of the thread rather than acting like you've been personally attacked.

 

[Exorcet]

Of the engine, as that's the key point we're discussing. But if the Viper is pushing to CFRP body then I'd see it a fair trade off.

But again, displacement is only one factor. The Viper already gets the same economy as Ferrari and what not, and its not any slower.

But a lot of parts do. Internals, fuel supply, cooling system all have to increase.

Yet the Viper's engine has never gained weight, even when increasing displacement. And parts are built with tolerances. The components of the Viper's engine are built to handle more than 600 hp, as any engine should be able to handle more power than it puts out. It's possible that the displacement increase on the new engine requires no additional equipment mass, or perhaps even less mass.

The other ways are often lighter and offer greater efficiency. I personally think the Viper is being stubbornly steered to be as big as a contrast to "over engineered" cars as economically possible.

Displacement doesn't necessarily add weight. So even if Dodge can't start from scratch with the engine, there is nothing to worry about. Unless the engine was bored to max (obviously not) there probably won't be any significant weight gain. What about ancillaries then, as you brought up? Wouldn't they need to be improved for any power gain over a certain value? If so, it's not a displacement issue.

Lightening the reciprocating mass in the engine would be lighter than an displacement increase (since a negative number is less than zero), but they are not mutually exclusive.

You don't need to, you've not claimed it as fact. I simply asked.

Alright then, but that's probably not possible at this point. The very thing we're arguing about, displacement, is a rumor itself. There probably won't be many facts until the car is shown.

The new tech works, so why aren't they using it?

Then both methods works. Now it becomes a question of what meets the goals better.

If you're trying to go supersonic, you can go the F-104 way, or the F-106 way. Both work, but depending on what your ultimate goal is, one could end up being much more attractive.

European? Why not Japanese? Korean? Mexican? Everyone is moving forward with engine tech, why isn't the Viper being allowed to do so?

Where is the Viper not moving forward?

Making an assumption about how good the engine is just because of one method they used to increase performance (which every manufacturer uses because it's a no brainer) isn't too sound.

The Viper has just as much power, acceleration, and whatever as everyone else. If that's what Dodge set out to achieve, they are not behind in the slightest. If the Viper was not moving forward, it would not be competitive like it is now.

I'd argue that if there is an area where the Viper actually needs to catch up, it's certainly not the engine. It's probably the aerodynamics.

 

[Zenith]

I already have said why. If you haven't noticed the numerous reasons I've given why don't you step out of the thread rather than acting like you've been personally attacked.

You haven't.

You've assumed that smaller engines with more output/displacement and newer technologies are just better. The only tangible reasoning you've cited is weight and has been disproven already with facts that you have doubted simply because they can be manipulated (or maybe because they disagree with you).

Is increasing engine displacement morally wrong? In my experience it seems this way. People look down upon displacement increases as lazy engineering for those who cannot achieve their goals otherwise. This is strange, especially when "more efficient" engines are often turbocharged, as if the downsides of a turbo (lag, intercooler, maintenance) are somehow negligible compared to increasing displacement. That's another discussion, though.

 

[JCE]

Personally, I can't see how a team of engineers, given the option of a plethora of new technologies, would choose to improve a car by increasing the displacement to new levels of pointless.

I'm not suggesting the engine needs to be more efficient, or more refined. But if they wanted to add more power they had many options available that didn't involve decreasing the efficiency and increasing the weight.

I was expecting more power, I was expecting an ever more absurd driving experience, but a power plant improvement that seems to have consisted of "guhhh lets make that big bigger, yuh" is just disappointing to me.

I've argued this point about the Corvette (and GM) for at least 10 years--and getting flamed every single time on every single forum for doing it. Funny that the Viper doesn't illicit the same response? This time I'm not FOR reducing displacement or improving the technology. I'm for the Viper being, a Viper. Brash, in your face and who gives a **** how it got there but you better buy it a beer. The Corvette is no longer the blue collar hero, that title is now stamped on the Viper as of 2005.

While I do believe the technology is there to turn let's say the 6.1L V8 HEMI into a fire breathing 600+ bhp monster under a Viper bonnet, I don't see Chrysler doing it. The simple reason why is, well obviously, it is a Viper. The Viper literally breaks the establishment's rules and mooning everyone while doing it. And I wouldn't have it any other way, hell, I want them to bore that SOB out to 9.0L! The Corvette is a corporate "hey I can keep up with Ferrari's" message car GM has. Dancing all around like a little pretty ladyboy. The Viper is more manly and like "shut up, get in and hold on" while flexing its muscles. The Viper and how it is being created/maintained by Chrysler reminds me of the muscle car era. "I don't care if this isn't aerodynamic, add more power." "Who cares if it gets 8mpg, add more power to get you to the gas station faster." "We need more power, lets bore it out more." That. Is. Cool.

That puts the Viper in the Subzero fridge, and is one of the reasons why a bunch of enthusiasts including some Europeans love it so much. It just doesn't compromise. I used to hate it, and having driven a 1997 model and 2005 model it wasn't very comfortable. Now, I would buy a used 2005+ generation with no hesitation. Even with the Dodge Neon interior and Chrysler build quality being very suspect.

And, IIRC, the newer generation Viper V10 is quite a bit lighter and more efficient than the 1st generation engine. You'd actually be surprised how much better the newer V10 is after they've fiddled with it.

 

[SuperShouden]

I read a couple years ago that Dodge was discontinuing the Viper. I'm gonna hunt down that source and tell them to go @&*% themselves. LOL

They did discontinue the Viper....temporarily. This new Viper should be ready in time for the Viper's 20th Anniversary.