Tires permanently screeching (comforts)

[Morphisor]

Today I bought a Mercury Cougar XR-7, which strangely comes standard with a set of sports hard tires. I didn't think that could be right, so before taking it out, I put a set of comfort softs on it.

When taking the car for a drive though, I quickly noticed that the tires never really stop screeching...
Even in a straight line with full traction there a subdued screeching noise, regardless of speed too. The effect did not disappear with a custom transmission set for longer gears either, although I must admit I did not try extreme settings.

I wonder if it means the tires are constantly under a lot of load (they sure feel that way) or if it just a 'cosmetic' issue. In any case, it can't be normal, can it?

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

The Cougar is powerful and light especially in the rear, it will spin those comfort tires very easy, even RH tires will do a lot of screeching under throttle in the corners even with TC5

 

[JuiceMcGoose]

Get the custom suspension and set the toe angle to 0 for front and rear. It may not help the performance, but it should make it quieter.

 

[Lawndart]

The tire screeching on all tire variants is simply an audible indication of grip to help the player understand when they are at the edge of grip. Or more specificity when you are at the maximum slip angle.

Since this is pure feeling in a racecar GT had to compensate and I'm impressed they did something so gamy vs real.

Comfort tires have so little grip through the whole range of the tire they simply squeal all the time, but they still pitch so you know the max slip angle.

Real tires squeal when max grip is exceeded and at the threshold (cooking the tire - street or race track)... But there are exceptions like if the track is banked or the Tarmac is especially grippy...

Infinion raceway (not in GT 6) has a great real world example of this, the carassel makes tires scream for dear life but no other corners do this (any tires/cars).

The kart tires sounds in GT 6 are the most realistic sounding tire that a driver can hear and feel just like real life as you can even feel that "scrubbing" in your butt in a real car.

I hope this makes sence, I'm very pleased to see Polyphony making concessions in the name of a game vs there usual pure mimic of real life, something computationally impossible to do while still being initiative to the end user, who can never really feel what a real proformance driver does.

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

I kind of assumed that this was supposed to be more realistic after their work with Yokohama. I don't get my car out to the track but I figure if I did the standard road tires would squeal like crazy. What's doesn't seem realistic however is the squealing from the rear when driving in a straight line, I noticed this when I put CS tires on my Boss 302 and GT500 Mustangs and went for a spin. The 390FE is one of the torquiest engines of all time so it doesn't surprise me the Cougar tortures the tires the same way, but it shouldn't be this noisy. Once you're at speed, even the crappiest road tires shouldn't squeal like this as you drive along.

 

[Lawndart]

I kind of assumed that this was supposed to be more realistic after their work with Yokohama. I don't get my car out to the track but I figure if I did the standard road tires would squeal like crazy. What's doesn't seem realistic however is the squealing from the rear when driving in a straight line, I noticed this when I put CS tires on my Boss 302 and GT500 Mustangs and went for a spin. The 390FE is one of the torquiest engines of all time so it doesn't surprise me the Cougar tortures the tires the same way, but it shouldn't be this noisy. Once you're at speed, even the crappiest road tires shouldn't squeal like this as you drive along.

It's the downside, or compromise to the system I mention above. I would assume pd didn't think people actually stay on comforts in higher powered cars... And really weren't thinking of drifting with them...

This could also reveal that the tire system changes based on the car as no one would actually put comfort tires on a mustang... In fact they would be hard to find in the real world...

Perhaps there is a modifier where a certain amount of grip is removed based on the car and putting crappy tires on a performance car is causing a constant squeal due to that modifier.

This would conclude that certain cars unique behavior is tied to those predefined tire settings... Setting we ironically can't modify... Ie tire pressure...

 

[Spongeinside]

I had something similar in the Focus RS... Tires just wouldn't stop screeching, even at just a few km/h in a straight line, the tires screeched as if you were doing a burnout or donuts...

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

It's the downside, or compromise to the system I mention above. I would assume pd didn't think people actually stay on comforts in higher powered cars... And really weren't thinking of drifting with them...

This could also reveal that the tire system changes based on the car as no one would actually put comfort tires on a mustang... In fact they would be hard to find in the real world...

Perhaps there is a modifier where a certain amount of grip is removed based on the car and putting crappy tires on a performance car is causing a constant squeal due to that modifier.

This would conclude that certain cars unique behavior is tied to those predefined tire settings... Setting we ironically can't modify... Ie tire pressure...

The Comfort Tires are real world tires, they're radial tires. The Sports tires are cup tires/semi slicks only, not even allowed on the road legally in many countries, and treacherous in wet conditions. In real life, the Goodyears that the GT500 comes with are a cup tire, but the PZero tires fitted to a Boss 302 are not a semi slick tire, not with the tread they have. So fitting any car that comes with an all weather tire option from the dealership ( most road cars ) with the Comfort tires is the most realistic option.

As for PD not expecting people to fit cars with these tires, allow me to leave you with their own in-game description of these tires:

" The amount of grip offered is very close to that of the tyres used in real road cars, making them a great fit for those who wish to experience a 'normal' road-driving feel. "

........but there doesn't seem to be anything normal about your tires howling away behind as you drive along in a straightline, not unless you're deliberately doing a burnout.

 

[MustangManiac]

Have you ever been to a track day and listened to all the screeching? It is easy to tell those that have performance tires and those that are running OEM stock tires, holy cr*p, those things make a ton of noise! I don't see the game being that far off base actually

 

[MadCyclist]

As for PD not expecting people to fit cars with these tires, allow me to leave you with their own in-game description of these tires:

Can't really trust in-game descriptions. The description for the 4WD torque splitter in GT5 still says it can be set to 0:100.

 

[research]

Man, I was starting to think I was the only one.. On many cars (high and medium powered), the comfort tires will screech while driving in a straight line, at speed. There should be no 'slip' going on here, whatsoever. Are they giving us the 'sound' of that awful .20 rear toe setting that somehow nearly EVERY car in the entire game comes with?


Something is quite wrong. Also it seems that many times the sound of the tires can overpower all else going on. This is all the more reason for some simple sound sliders..

Tire noise ....l..
Engine Bay .l.....
Cabin sounds ...l...
Air rush ...l...
EXHAUST NOTE ......l
Transmission ...l...
Crash effects ....l..
Environment ...l...
Crowd Noise ....l..

etc...

 

[Lawndart]

The Comfort Tires are real world tires, they're radial tires. The Sports tires are cup tires/semi slicks only, not even allowed on the road legally in many countries, and treacherous in wet conditions. In real life, the Goodyears that the GT500 comes with are a cup tire, but the PZero tires fitted to a Boss 302 are not a semi slick tire, not with the tread they have. So fitting any car that comes with an all weather tire option from the dealership ( most road cars ) with the Comfort tires is the most realistic option.

As for PD not expecting people to fit cars with these tires, allow me to leave you with their own in-game description of these tires:

" The amount of grip offered is very close to that of the tyres used in real road cars, making them a great fit for those who wish to experience a 'normal' road-driving feel. "

........but there doesn't seem to be anything normal about your tires howling away behind as you drive along in a straightline, not unless you're deliberately doing a burnout.

To be clear, I mention an audible system that gives the feedback a real driver can feel.

A sport tire is a "summer" tire. A semi slick is still a racing tire that still performs in the wet. We use them in scca spec racing (shaved for semi slick effect) for both wet and dry races as regulation does not permit a rain spec tire as they are simply grooved race tires.

Comfort tires are on sedans, vans, camerys and other "people mover" cars... Or "skinny tires".

Again, the howling is the compromise of the audible feedback system. And as such drifting sounds harsh, but works well. The traction I mentioned was a theory on modifiers for different cars that could have a localized per car modifier...

It's all theory I'm talking about with the sound design. Tires are something I know more about than any normal person should...

 

[JDMKING13]

The Comfort Tires are real world tires, they're radial tires. The Sports tires are cup tires/semi slicks only, not even allowed on the road legally in many countries, and treacherous in wet conditions. In real life, the Goodyears that the GT500 comes with are a cup tire, but the PZero tires fitted to a Boss 302 are not a semi slick tire, not with the tread they have. So fitting any car that comes with an all weather tire option from the dealership ( most road cars ) with the Comfort tires is the most realistic option.

As for PD not expecting people to fit cars with these tires, allow me to leave you with their own in-game description of these tires:

" The amount of grip offered is very close to that of the tyres used in real road cars, making them a great fit for those who wish to experience a 'normal' road-driving feel. "

........but there doesn't seem to be anything normal about your tires howling away behind as you drive along in a straightline, not unless you're deliberately doing a burnout.

I agree with this to a point, I would say the sports hard still resemble a street tire. It would be a aggressive tire such as a A048 Advan tire, which can be used on the track street, and still give you some decent drivability on a wet surface. As for the loud tires I thought they did it so the driver can know the limits of the car. I wish they let you adjust the sounds individually, it would make every body happy in the end.

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

Tires are something I know more about than any normal person should...

I'd like to pick your brain then with a few questions if that's alright because tires and what the most realistic choices are in this game is something that really interests me.

In it's simplest form of description, GT tires come in 3 ways, road tires (Comfort) cup racing/off street racing/time trials tires (Sport) and pure racing slicks ( race tires ) and the three grades within each give you some scope for tuning according to your preferences. My preference is that every car I have, runs tires that are as close to real life spec as possible. Here's where it gets complicated............

First of all, there seems to be many a high performance car now that is being released with tires that are an exact blend of road tire and cup tire. Case in point, the new GT500:

.......and then there the more pure cup tire option fitted to the ZR1 Corvette:

Both cup tires probably best represented in GT by the Sports Hards, whilst the all weather standard for the Zr1:

.....and the Boss 302 Mustang tires:

.....seem to definitely be tires best represented by the comfort softs. Would you agree?

You said that cup tires are used on the track in wet weather because they still grip where a racing slick won't and where a grooved slick is not allowed. Does this mean that in the wet they are every bit as good as a road tire as you would see on most standard cars? I have always thought that with practically no grooves they are only slightly more useful then slicks in the wet. Are they able to be used on a track in the wet mainly because of the dry racing line and the extremely soft compound they are made from (relative to road tires) that means they are always stickier than a road tire even when it's wet? Would a guy on the track who pitted and changed onto road tires be faster and more secure in the rain than those on the cup tires?

Sorry to fire all this your way, but I've been waiting to bump into a tire expert on these forums for ages just so I could ask some of this stuff.

I really think that most people that play GT seem to think that not using any aids combined with racing softs on road cars makes them some sort of driving hero, when the way to really feel how little grip the cars have in real life on road tires is to run the comfort tires and then, if you need to, use traction control and assists to help you. Again, it's realistic given that cars like the new Ferraris are fastest in the hands of most with their aids on, and many cars won't even let you turn off aids all the way for this reason.

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

I agree with this to a point, I would say the sports hard still resemble a street tire. It would be a aggressive tire such as a A048 Advan tire, which can be used on the track street, and still give you some decent drivability on a wet surface. As for the loud tires I thought they did it so the driver can know the limits of the car. I wish they let you adjust the sounds individually, it would make every body happy in the end.

Some simple sliders for the individual driving sound effects would be such a great thing to have.

 

[JDMKING13]

Some simple sliders for the individual driving sound effects would be such a great thing to have.

Yup, and for your tire question in my opinion I think 90% of production cars should come with comfort tires. However that's my strong opinion. Also just use the edit function so you don't double posts mods don't like it.

 

[Lawndart]

I'd like to pick your brain then with a few questions if that's alright because tires and what the most realistic choices are in this game is something that really interests me.

In it's simplest form of description, GT tires come in 3 ways, road tires (Comfort) cup racing/off street racing/time trials tires (Sport) and pure racing slicks ( race tires ) and the three grades within each give you some scope for tuning according to your preferences. My preference is that every car I have, runs tires that are as close to real life spec as possible. Here's where it gets complicated............

First of all, there seems to be many a high performance car now that is being released with tires that are an exact blend of road tire and cup tire. Case in point, the new GT500:

View attachment 93530

.......and then there the more pure cup tire option fitted to the ZR1 Corvette:

View attachment 93531

Both cup tires probably best represented in GT by the Sports Hards, whilst the all weather standard for the Zr1:

View attachment 93532

.....and the Boss 302 Mustang tires:

View attachment 93533

.....seem to definitely be tires best represented by the comfort softs. Would you agree?

You said that cup tires are used on the track in wet weather because they still grip where a racing slick won't and where a grooved slick is not allowed. Does this mean that in the wet they are every bit as good as a road tire as you would see on most standard cars? I have always thought that with practically no grooves they are only slightly more useful then slicks in the wet. Are they able to be used on a track in the wet mainly because of the dry racing line and the extremely soft compound they are made from (relative to road tires) that means they are always stickier than a road tire even when it's wet? Would a guy on the track who pitted and changed onto road tires be faster and more secure in the rain than those on the cup tires?

Sorry to fire all this your way, but I've been waiting to bump into a tire expert on these forums for ages just so I could ask some of this stuff.

I really think that most people that play GT seem to think that not using any aids combined with racing softs on road cars makes them some sort of driving hero, when the way to really feel how little grip the cars have in real life on road tires is to run the comfort tires and then, if you need to, use traction control and assists to help you. Again, it's realistic given that cars like the new Ferraris are fastest in the hands of most with their aids on, and many cars won't even let you turn off aids all the way for this reason.

You've got like 30 questions here that could be answered with pages of info... Google is a better friend than I but I will address a few key questions. We also can't neglect the fact that tire manufacturers have been making specific tires for many models more recently and for Porsche for many years... As such they are harder to categorize but I'm sure GT isn't accounting for that.

The most important factors to a tire is compound. Tire tread is nothing more than a means to channel road debris, i.e. water, dirt, snow, etc.

In GT the comfort through race tires are nothing more than a sliding scale based on compounds. PD then have arbitrary names in groups of 3. So there is only a loose real world comparison based on the GT naming.

As such, you might as well assume comforts are pretty much so crumby they aren't even OEM for any car over 20k.

That being said, if you ignore them then the sport and race have a relatively more accurate semblance to what's on our cars today.

The term "semi slick" became a commercial offering long after racers started "shaving" tires. This basically means 90% of the tire tred has been shaved off. With the intention to increase footprint and reduce the flexible treds.

So it's more general a comparison than car specific as we are talking about a linear systemic system in a game. For the rest of your questions I'll answer with real world experience but keep in mind, I'm not at all considering "comfort" tires or anything with 200 rated tread wear (even though I just ran an endurance race with those earlier this month).

I run many series but my exp with spec Miata (scca) might be the most relevant to this discussion. We can choose from 2 spec manufactures; Hoosiers or Toyo. I run 2 Toyo versions, the first RA1s (sport hard) and I have tire rack shave them prior to shipping (semi slick but still a harder compound - sport medium) the second are Toyo RR a proper slick but harder compound than a race tire, slightly softer than the RA 1 (sport soft).

Remember those Hoosiers I mentioned? Now those are much softer compound and therefore don't last long at all... In fact, when running spec mustang we burn up a set in 1 weekend... That's 1500 bucks and those are proper race tires. And with race tires they need to be managed by the driver because they are so soft, even the harder compounds when mounted to a 3k lbs race car evaporate in no time with abusive driving..

People also run them on Miata's but I think its BS and breaks the spec as they are way more expensive, way softer, but have far fewer heat cycles. They are good for 3-5 second faster laps and racing is already god awful expensive.

Once you get into race tires the diversity is huge...

Sorry but I don't feel getting all nerdy on tires would be good reading for others without the context to what it might mean in GT 6... But I did appreciate your well thought out reply with picks, its clear you want to know the black art of tires... And it is a pretty interesting science.

Edit: you mentioned aids in newer cars... That's not tires, that simply the cars computer being able to correct based on the cars attitude faster than a human. I think Nissan is the leader in this, and ironically PD helped them with the onboard display, but Ferrari has got massive nutz in making cars that require then to be even drivable, like a modern fighter jets fly by wire avionics.

Smooth is fast, aids help take the edge off and compensate for driver error. Race drivers are simply a different breed of car jockey but even we struggle without some aids at times... Look at the 1994 f1 season, beyond Imola... The whole year was a spin Fest. Aids can make an inherently unstable car stable...

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

Thanks for posting that info Mate. Didn't seem nerdy to me at all, just interesting. I've tried googling this stuff and I haven't really found any of the answers that I'm looking for, your post on the other hand has helped a bit. If you know of any good websites it would be great if you could post a link.

So in summary, you're saying that in your opinion the GT comfort tires are worse than anything you'd find on the cheapest hatchback in real life? It's a shame if you're right, just one more thing like the sounds that PD has not modeled particularly well perhaps. I've found when I'm playing that once temps are up the CS tires are almost as fast as the SH tires, except that if it rains you'll leave the road in no time on the Sports (about 10% surface water is all it takes) where as the Comfort are unaffected right up to about 60% surface water. I might not be pushing hard enough on the Sports in the dry, I dunno.

I was getting off track with the aids, just trying to demonstrate how little understanding many GT players seem to have for how cars really achieve their performance. It isn't by using racing slicks with no aids. I too find the modern Ferrari's amazing. People don't understand that these cars are just like a modern fighter, the inherent instability providing a speed of turn and response otherwise impossible while the aids work away in the background to keep the whole show together and on the blacktop. Without the aids it wouldn't matter who was piloting them a GTR or 458 would be a shadow of itself without the electronics. Just amazing.

 

[JDMKING13]

Thanks for posting that info Mate. Didn't seem nerdy to me at all, just interesting. I've tried googling this stuff and I haven't really found any of the answers that I'm looking for, your post on the other hand has helped a bit. If you know of any good websites it would be great if you could post a link.

So in summary, you're saying that in your opinion the GT comfort tires are worse than anything you'd find on the cheapest hatchback in real life? It's a shame if you're right, just one more thing like the sounds that PD has not modeled particularly well perhaps. I've found when I'm playing that once temps are up the CS tires are almost as fast as the SH tires, except that if it rains you'll leave the road in no time on the Sports (about 10% surface water is all it takes) where as the Comfort are unaffected right up to about 60% surface water. I might not be pushing hard enough on the Sports in the dry, I dunno.

I was getting off track with the aids, just trying to demonstrate how little understanding many GT players seem to have for how cars really achieve their performance. It isn't by using racing slicks with no aids. I too find the modern Ferrari's amazing. People don't understand that these cars are just like a modern fighter, the inherent instability providing a speed of turn and response otherwise impossible while the aids work away in the background to keep the whole show together and on the blacktop. Without the aids it wouldn't matter who was piloting them a GTR or 458 would be a shadow of itself without the electronics. Just amazing.

I don't agree with this, CS have enough grip to handle your high end sports car/super car. I feel SH is a aggressive street tire and SM SS are just shaved down semi slicks. CM are on majority of your medium range sport cars such as integra, Toyota 86,etc CH should be on old cars with old tech tires. I also like what you said about the rain making my point even better on why 90% of production cars come with Comfort tires.

 

[Morphisor]

Man, I was starting to think I was the only one.. On many cars (high and medium powered), the comfort tires will screech while driving in a straight line, at speed. There should be no 'slip' going on here, whatsoever. Are they giving us the 'sound' of that awful .20 rear toe setting that somehow nearly EVERY car in the entire game comes with?

Tested this today, and changing the toe to neutral with otherwise identical settings did not seem to make any difference.

The screeching is also progressive with worse tires, with CH tires having quite a bit more noise.
On top of that, gear ratios seem to make little difference. Even with max speed set to 400 on the Cougar, the tires were screeching all the way, even at 300+ km/h on SSX.

 

[Lawndart]

Thanks for posting that info Mate. Didn't seem nerdy to me at all, just interesting. I've tried googling this stuff and I haven't really found any of the answers that I'm looking for, your post on the other hand has helped a bit. If you know of any good websites it would be great if you could post a link.

So in summary, you're saying that in your opinion the GT comfort tires are worse than anything you'd find on the cheapest hatchback in real life? It's a shame if you're right, just one more thing like the sounds that PD has not modeled particularly well perhaps. I've found when I'm playing that once temps are up the CS tires are almost as fast as the SH tires, except that if it rains you'll leave the road in no time on the Sports (about 10% surface water is all it takes) where as the Comfort are unaffected right up to about 60% surface water. I might not be pushing hard enough on the Sports in the dry, I dunno.

I was getting off track with the aids, just trying to demonstrate how little understanding many GT players seem to have for how cars really achieve their performance. It isn't by using racing slicks with no aids. I too find the modern Ferrari's amazing. People don't understand that these cars are just like a modern fighter, the inherent instability providing a speed of turn and response otherwise impossible while the aids work away in the background to keep the whole show together and on the blacktop. Without the aids it wouldn't matter who was piloting them a GTR or 458 would be a shadow of itself without the electronics. Just amazing.

Interesting rain test you did... That would indicate there is a multiplayer for tread and that it's not simply a degradation of traction... Now I'm curious... "Snow tires" people swap in colder climates might be considered comfort tires...

Others in the thread should read my first post above and really think about the audio/screeching as simply an exaggerated audible que to where we are, as a player, in the traction circle. It gets very muddy when people assume the audio is like real life and misses the point...

@jlmcmillan1978 you're asking the right questions and you might be surprised to know that racing and all things associated with it are highly secretive, even on an individual level. Tire tech being the most secretive... More so than engine development. As tire consumers we have only a few criteria to pull from when evaluating a tire, tread wear/life, traction rating, tred pattern, and size. Then the most important, someone's qualified opinion on how they perform and that's highly subjective. Not to mention certain drivers have their own taste in tire behavior. When forced to use a spec tire you learn a lot as you are forced to preform with it... And this is where changing the tire dynamics through air pressure or nitrogen instead of air really pays off. Something I wish GT had as pressure alone can completely change a tires behavior. Even in forza 4 I ran lower tire pressures than most tuners as they heated up faster and had more "flex" but I have to be disciplined with my turn in and exits, just how I like it in real life. My style of driving is riding up to the traction point, then down through the exit, like climbing over a peak. Most racers would argue that sustaining traction is better through a turn but I'm good with breaking, throttle control, and rear wheel steering (thank you motorcycle racing when I was younger) instead I use multiple apexes. Willow turn two is a 3 apex turn and the way I attack it I'll always exit faster than most and perform outside passes in the turn. Its a harder driving style to master, but it's not something you'll read much about as instructors are more inclined to help people get the rutamentry dynamics down and then each driver figures out their own style with enough track time.

But I digress.

Even I'm surprised how little good information is on the internet about it. Perhaps it's the race industry aging and being left behind in the digital age, take all the sage knowledge to the grave.

In my experience there are 2 kinds of people when trying to figure out racing and games; the gamer taking an interest and trying to compare to the real world, and the racer from the real world trying to figure out the sim... And few in between. Neither has an advantage without context for either side.

Personally I've been racing motorcycles and cars for 30 years, placed 3rd in the scca STL championship in the SFR region this year. And I've been a game developer/game team leader for 20 years (I'm a big kid!). And even with full context for both sides I struggle to explain things because the foundations on both sides are very complex... Breaking down GT is quite easy for me as I understand computational physics, AI, rendering, and a lot about CFD in video games (made a flight sim many years ago with NASA tech) etc. and also where to break from reality to make things feel more real... But I never thought of the tire noise being a compensator for the real feel and this impresses me to no end if my theory is correct.

YouTube has has some great videos about race tech, they are scattered around and not easily found, and as I search them a lot my recommended list brings them up a lot... And because of that I ironically don't pay attention to where they are from. Peter Windsor has a series called F1 racers edge that has great information from guests but can get boring if you're not an F1 fan but there are great details peppered throughout his vids.

This got long... But I fully support your desire for knowledge and encourage you to keep seeking it. I would recommend learning the mechanics or "race craft" from a racers pov from a book etc. then you can apply race technique to your pursuit to understanding tires. That context will make it easier to extrapolate tire behavior based on a real technique. This way you can test the tires per corner vs full laps. Gamers have a hell of a time breaking things down, but that's what you have to do. Also, run a track day, tell me where you are located and I can point you to the right person. If you have a mustang I highly recommend you rent a proper race car, I can help you with that too. Though there is an absence of information online, there isn't when you're involved. Your racing games will take on a whole new life. You can also volunteer as a corner worker at your local track.

If you're in the SF area you can hire me as an instructor for cheep... I'm on an extended vacation anyway... Hoping 2014 brings more advanced opportunity... As I'm relatively bored and not looking to just work on any game.

There is also the chance (50%) that I'll be a backup driver in the Daytona 24 so if your in FL later in January I can get you on the team roster, put you to work, and get you more education than you'll care to know.

Holy cow I just dumped a stream of conscience... My thumb and phone are warn out...

 

[GranTourist]

Breaking down GT is quite easy for me as I understand computational physics, AI, rendering, and a lot about CFD in video games (made a flight sim many years ago with NASA tech) etc. and also where to break from reality to make things feel more real... But I never thought of the tire noise being a compensator for the real feel and this impresses me to no end if my theory is correct.

Breaking from reality with unrealistic substitutes or surrogates to compensate inadequateness of a simulation is something lots of gamers surprisingly don't appreciate because they think that would devaluate the simulation itself.

A static driving simulator of our company initially used to have a very accurate sound replication of driving noises. In-car sound was recorded with microphones in the ears of an acoustic dummy to make sure that the testpersons would hear exacly what they would hear in the real car. Additional sounds of engine, wheels, windnoise and so on were recorded in a real car with microphones in the engine bay and the wheel houses and so on. In the simulator the car-mockup had speakers at the recording positions to ensure that the correct sound came from the correct positions.

Everything was as perfect as one could imagine. But guess what the testpersons said when they drove on the simulator: The sound is wrong they said. The engine is not loud enough and something is wrong with the tire noise when driving at the limit of adhesion they said.

Finally (with the help of a student making his master on psychoacoustics) we found out what went wrong: The human brain takes hold of anything it gets when there is something missing. In a static driving simulator the accelerations are missing which of course means there is no proper feedback for longitudinal and lateral accelerations (besides the optical information). In Germany testdrivers of car companies term their feedback feeling in real cars as 'Popo-Meter' which I guess would translate to english with something like 'bum-o-meter'...of course at the end it's the equilibrium organ within our ears and not our backside.

Interestingly enough even experienced test-drivers could finally be fooled with unrealistic loud engine sound for the longitudinal acceleration and with an artificial modulated tire sound (not analike GT6) for the acceleration effects when driving at the limit of adhesion.

 

[Lawndart]

Breaking from reality with unrealistic substitutes or surrogates to compensate inadequateness of a simulation is something lots of gamers surprisingly don't appreciate because they think that would devaluate the simulation itself.

A static driving simulator of our company initially used to have a very accurate sound replication of driving noises. In-car sound was recorded with microphones in the ears of an acoustic dummy to make sure that the testpersons would hear exacly what they would hear in the real car. Additional sounds of engine, wheels, windnoise and so on were recorded in a real car with microphones in the engine bay and the wheel houses and so on. In the simulator the car-mockup had speakers at the recording positions to ensure that the correct sound came from the correct positions.

Everything was as perfect as one could imagine. But guess what the testpersons said when they drove on the simulator: The sound is wrong they said. The engine is not loud enough and something is wrong with the tire noise when driving at the limit of adhesion they said.

Finally (with the help of a student making his master on psychoacoustics) we found out what went wrong: The human brain takes hold of anything it gets when there is something missing. In a static driving simulator the accelerations are missing which of course means there is no proper feedback for longitudinal and lateral accelerations (besides the optical information). In Germany testdrivers of car companies term their feedback feeling in real cars as 'Popo-Meter' which I guess would translate to english with something like 'bum-o-meter'...of course at the end it's the equilibrium organ within our ears and not our backside.

Interestingly enough even experienced test-drivers could finally be fooled with unrealistic loud engine sound for the longitudinal acceleration and with an artificial modulated tire sound (not analike GT6) for the acceleration effects when driving at the limit of adhesion.

Absolutely perfect example!!! Loved reading that. Nearly every type of game has these 'realities' and this is why every designer will tell you its about being convincing, not real... And that is the "magic" of games. And it's not limited to only games but that's a bigger topic.

My earliest example was in the late 90's. We licensed CFD from nasa (computational fluid dynamics) to make the most realistic flight simulator ever... We needed SGI machines crunching for 3 days on super high detailed plane models (each).

After 3-5 models and testing, it was completely awful and conflicted with our world simulation of wind and air pressure too, values that were based on the CFD ack!

We were livid! So we rewrote the CFD and removed thousands of calculations, ditched the sgi's.

Many months later we not only nailed the feeling but where also able to simulate physics for every part of the plane, replicating the terminal velocity that would rip wings off and they would flutter to the ground with accurate mass. This even gave us flex in the airframe. So convincing, combined with some further unique features along the same mind set for padlocking, projectile drop off, etc. that it was regarded the most accurate simulation and recreation of ww2 plains, still to this day 15 years later. Unfortunately it was more of a tech demo than game, not too do similar to the GT series if you look at it from a different angle.

This fundamental understanding, and how to apply it, is the difference between jr and sr technical designers.

Though I'm not a designer, back in the 90's we were all designers... anyone who makes or supports development (even the business side) of games should have a deep understanding of the philosophies that make them fun. But sadly, our industry is loaded with those that don't these days (vent - rant off).

Feel is still the ultimate test.

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

Interesting rain test you did... That would indicate there is a multiplayer for tread and that it's not simply a degradation of traction... Now I'm curious... "Snow tires" people swap in colder climates might be considered comfort tires...

Others in the thread should read my first post above and really think about the audio/screeching as simply an exaggerated audible que to where we are, as a player, in the traction circle. It gets very muddy when people assume the audio is like real life and misses the point...

@jlmcmillan1978 you're asking the right questions and you might be surprised to know that racing and all things associated with it are highly secretive, even on an individual level. Tire tech being the most secretive... More so than engine development. As tire consumers we have only a few criteria to pull from when evaluating a tire, tread wear/life, traction rating, tred pattern, and size. Then the most important, someone's qualified opinion on how they perform and that's highly subjective. Not to mention certain drivers have their own taste in tire behavior. When forced to use a spec tire you learn a lot as you are forced to preform with it... And this is where changing the tire dynamics through air pressure or nitrogen instead of air really pays off. Something I wish GT had as pressure alone can completely change a tires behavior. Even in forza 4 I ran lower tire pressures than most tuners as they heated up faster and had more "flex" but I have to be disciplined with my turn in and exits, just how I like it in real life. My style of driving is riding up to the traction point, then down through the exit, like climbing over a peak. Most racers would argue that sustaining traction is better through a turn but I'm good with breaking, throttle control, and rear wheel steering (thank you motorcycle racing when I was younger) instead I use multiple apexes. Willow turn two is a 3 apex turn and the way I attack it I'll always exit faster than most and perform outside passes in the turn. Its a harder driving style to master, but it's not something you'll read much about as instructors are more inclined to help people get the rutamentry dynamics down and then each driver figures out their own style with enough track time.

But I digress.

Even I'm surprised how little good information is on the internet about it. Perhaps it's the race industry aging and being left behind in the digital age, take all the sage knowledge to the grave.

In my experience there are 2 kinds of people when trying to figure out racing and games; the gamer taking an interest and trying to compare to the real world, and the racer from the real world trying to figure out the sim... And few in between. Neither has an advantage without context for either side.

Personally I've been racing motorcycles and cars for 30 years, placed 3rd in the scca STL championship in the SFR region this year. And I've been a game developer/game team leader for 20 years (I'm a big kid!). And even with full context for both sides I struggle to explain things because the foundations on both sides are very complex... Breaking down GT is quite easy for me as I understand computational physics, AI, rendering, and a lot about CFD in video games (made a flight sim many years ago with NASA tech) etc. and also where to break from reality to make things feel more real... But I never thought of the tire noise being a compensator for the real feel and this impresses me to no end if my theory is correct.

YouTube has has some great videos about race tech, they are scattered around and not easily found, and as I search them a lot my recommended list brings them up a lot... And because of that I ironically don't pay attention to where they are from. Peter Windsor has a series called F1 racers edge that has great information from guests but can get boring if you're not an F1 fan but there are great details peppered throughout his vids.

This got long... But I fully support your desire for knowledge and encourage you to keep seeking it. I would recommend learning the mechanics or "race craft" from a racers pov from a book etc. then you can apply race technique to your pursuit to understanding tires. That context will make it easier to extrapolate tire behavior based on a real technique. This way you can test the tires per corner vs full laps. Gamers have a hell of a time breaking things down, but that's what you have to do. Also, run a track day, tell me where you are located and I can point you to the right person. If you have a mustang I highly recommend you rent a proper race car, I can help you with that too. Though there is an absence of information online, there isn't when you're involved. Your racing games will take on a whole new life. You can also volunteer as a corner worker at your local track.

If you're in the SF area you can hire me as an instructor for cheep... I'm on an extended vacation anyway... Hoping 2014 brings more advanced opportunity... As I'm relatively bored and not looking to just work on any game.

There is also the chance (50%) that I'll be a backup driver in the Daytona 24 so if your in FL later in January I can get you on the team roster, put you to work, and get you more education than you'll care to know.

Holy cow I just dumped a stream of conscience... My thumb and phone are warn out...

Lawndart, thanks again for all the info & pointers Mate, & you've no idea how much I'd like to take you up on your offer to volunteer on your team or get some instruction on the track, but I unfortunately live on the other side of the world. Were I a single man, I'd probably be booking a flight right now, but I've a wife and 7-month old son that need me here.

I currently own a WRX that was originally bought with the intention of hitting the track on occasion, but the car is my daily drive, & a mainly stock WRX isn't really well equipped to go to the track and belt out some laps without potentially incurring some problems ( STI's are a different story ). It's a case of either spending money on it to get it track ready, or spending money on it if, or as, things break, & at this stage in my life I don't have the money for either unfortunately. So, I spend silly amounts of time on Gran Turismo & researching all things automotive online, the next best hobby I guess!

It sounds like you've got a heck of an interesting life, I'm pretty envious! Take care & thanks.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

This is done with comfort medium ( summer tire ), semi slick are sports tire in GT6. No abs or other aids, 600HP stock Diablo GT, wing removed, grip real. 2:24.6xxx



Now, does the tire squeal all the time ? No, and IMO, comfort medium grips quite well with 600HP car like Diablo GT. Look at the cornering speeds , if comfort medium is low grip cheap radial fitted on cheap cars, the Diablo would have crashed many times I would say a decent high performance summer tire -CM, and the soft compound summer tire that almost looks like semi slick :Advan Neova AD05 for example ( comfort soft )

Stratos with comfort hard :



I raced in arcade mode many times - rain at Bathurst with stock Cizeta V16T on comfort medium, and it grips very well in the rain ( 30-40% water on track and 100% weather, grip real ) - got 2nd in a 2 lap race with 2:33 best lap. Try that on sports hard/semi slick

Back in GT5 Asian GT Championship held by PD, even GT86 uses comfort hard for the competition, and it represented real life OEM tire.

 

[shirakawaa]

I don't think people are getting what the problem actually is.
On some cars, if you listen carefully (and/or use headphones), with comfort tires you can hear a faint screeching sound all the time, even when accelerating on straight line at speeds/gears that shouldn't be causing tire skidding.

Try driving the Mustang Cobra SVT to experience this.

 

[amar212]

This is done with comfort medium ( summer tire ), semi slick are sports tire in GT6. No abs or other aids...

...rain at Bathurst with stock Cizeta V16T on comfort medium, and it grips very well in the rain..

You are driving with the wheel and pedals I presume.

What brake balance are you using for Cizeta and Diablo for CM(N2) tires and no ABS?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You are driving with the wheel and pedals I presume.

What brake balance are you using for Cizeta and Diablo for CM(N2) tires and no ABS?

Stick actually, 9/2 brake balance for both Diablo and Cizeta. I am uploading my Cizeta race replay on dropbox, will post it on Wardez replay thread soon Intense rain battle to the finish in 2nd. The 288 GTO at the front was too fast and 2 laps was proved to be too short

 

[Delicious]

Since GT5 I've been using my own Impreza STI tires to create a sort of "scale of judgement".
In game the car feels very similar to the real thing so I assume that Sport Hards are like Bridgestone Potenza RE070 tires.

This is classified as Summer Performance Tire and it's Sport Hard in GT.
Moving to more grippy tires I usually classify cup tires (like the ZR1's posted by jlmcmillan1978) as Sport Medium and Semi Slicks as Sport Soft.
Using this simple classification when a car doesn't feel as it should (Ford Focus ST, Megane RS etc...) I simply check on google their factory tires and compare them with my own scale (when possible).
It might be a little boring and probably not entirely correct but so far it worked fine to me.

 

[sinbad]

I don't think people are getting what the problem actually is.
On some cars, if you listen carefully (and/or use headphones), with comfort tires you can hear a faint screeching sound all the time, even when accelerating on straight line at speeds/gears that shouldn't be causing tire skidding.

Try driving the Mustang Cobra SVT to experience this.

I'm glad that someone posted that.

Classic missing of point.

It doesn't have be a ridiculously powerful car either. It's not normal and doesn't serve a purpose. If the tyres are actually spinning enough to make the noise then there's something more wrong than just over done tyre screech.