Cars with tall gearing

[GTsail]

I recently purchased an Audi LeMans quattro '03, and noticed that its stock gearing was very tall. I took it to the Test Track and checked to see where its red line was for shifting into the next gear.

First gear redline is at 52mph (the speed at which you should shift to the next gear)
Second gear redline is at 85mph
Third gear redline is at 123mph
Fourth gear redline is at 155mph
Fifth gear redline is at 185mph
Sixth gear takes you to a top speed of 217mph (drag limited)

This would mean that in everyday driving (meaning at speeds up to 90mph), you would mostly use 1st and 2nd gears only, and occasionally 3rd gear. Fourth, five and sixth gears would almost never get used.

I really wonder if these gears are what the "real" Audi LeMans quattro had. They seem too tall for a non-race car, or even for a "concept" car.

I found that the Audi Nuvolari quattro '03 had very similar, and tall gearing, with the shift from fifth to sixth gear occuring at 181mph.

A car that I am very familiar with, the Holden Commodore SS '04, also has very tall gearing, with the shift from fifth to sixth gear occuring at 158mph, a speed I doubt the Commodore ever reaches in everyday life.

A car with five speeds with very tall gearing is the Jaguar XJ220 '92. The shift from fourth into fifth occurs at 179mph. But this would be something expected in this car because it was meant to have a very high top end speed.

Has anyone else noticed other cars with tall gearing with the stock transmission?

Do you think that GT4 modeled these transmissions incorrectly?

GTsail290

 

[Famine]

I recently purchased an Audi LeMans quattro '03, and noticed that its stock gearing was very tall. I took it to the Test Track and checked to see where its red line was for shifting into the next gear.

First gear redline is at 52mph (the speed at which you should shift to the next gear)
Second gear redline is at 85mph
Third gear redline is at 123mph
Fourth gear redline is at 155mph
Fifth gear redline is at 185mph
Sixth gear takes you to a top speed of 217mph (drag limited)

This would mean that in everyday driving (meaning at speeds up to 90mph), you would mostly use 1st and 2nd gears only, and occiasionally 3rd gear. Fourth, five and sixth gears would almost never get used.

That's fine in theory, but when in everyday driving are you accelerating balls out?

My MX-3 - hardly a nuclear-powered world-beater - does 89mph in 3rd gear. That mean I drive everywhere in no higher gear than third? No. I drive everywhere in 5th, only changing down to a lower gear when I require more accelerative effort at that speed than 5th can offer (the only time that's not possible is when I'm doing 103mph). I like fuel economy when doing everyday driving, and I dislike deafness from 7500rpm everywhere.

I do 70mph in 5th. I do 60mph in 5th. I do 30mph in 5th (even though I can do it in 1st). Because I don't need maximum acceleration on the road. And neither do R8 drivers.

 

[GTsail]

That's fine in theory, but when in everyday driving are you accelerating balls out?
.....

EVERYWHERE!

I guess I've been playing too much GT4

I agree with what you say about shifting way before the redline usually, I just felt that some cars in GT4 seem to have taller gearing than I expected.

I found an Audi web site that said the Audi LeMans quattro was governor limited to 155mph (the same speed is also mentioned by a Car & Driver magazine review). It just seemed to me that the stock gearing in the car might be lower in real life than was depicted in GT4, and I was hoping there was an Audi or a Holden expert that knew more about the "real" gearing in these cars than I.

What got me thinking about this was driving the Holden Commodore SS in the on-line races. I'm not even using sixth gear, and I am pushing hard all race long. So I just felt that some cars might have gearing that was too tall.

Respectfully,
GTsail290

 

[GT-R_EMOKID]

Hey,Fammine who's eva?

 

[Giygas]

That Infiniti Fx45 has ultra tall gearing.

Also, i haven't driven this car in a long time, but does the Ford Gt change from 2nd to 3rd at over 100Mph?

 

[finnracer]

^Yes it does but it has so much torque it will pull rapidly from 30mph in 6th

 

[GeeTeeR]

AT McMerc SLR

 

[Jim Prower]

The reason for tall gearing is typically twofold: firstly, to brag that it has a high V-Max, but, more commonly, the reason is decent fuel economy on the highway. GM V8 boxes are well-known for being very tall in particular, especially sixth.

 

[Darla Starch]

That Infiniti Fx45 has ultra tall gearing.

Also, i haven't driven this car in a long time, but does the Ford Gt change from 2nd to 3rd at over 100Mph?

If I recall correctly, yes it does.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

There's a ton of cars in GT4 with very tall gears. Off the top of my head are Vipers. 6th is so tall, it doesn't even come into play while racing unless you're really using alot of power, and then that's only at Test Course races like the one in the Dream Car Championship.

I don't often use full-custom gears.

 

[GTsail]

Looking for more cars with tall gearing, I took a Dodge Viper SRT10 '03 (as suggested by Parnelli Bone) to the Test Track and watched the shift points.

I can confirm what Parnelli says, the gears are very tall.

The redline shift to 2nd occurs at 59mph
The redline shift to 3rd occurs at 88mph
The redline shift to 4th occurs at 119mph
The redline shift to 5th occurs at 155mph
The redline shift to 6th does not occur without NOS!

With NOS, the shift to sixth occurs at 208mph, but the Viper is drag limited and won't reach this speed without the NOS or an engine upgrade.

I don't see how the Viper could really have such tall gearing in "real" life. It can barely use its sixth gear!

Trying to apply real world driving instead of GT4 driving, I drove the Viper for a while to see where I might really shift gears if I was driving it on normal streets. I found that even though the Viper has a lot of torque, it does not really pull hard until the revs are higher than 3000 rpm's. So I think that in "everyday" driving, a Viper owner would stay in a gear long enough so that after a gear shift, the revs would not fall below 3000rpm. If you let the revs fall below 3000rpm, the car accelerates very slowly in a manner that I think all Viper owners would deplore.

With this in mind I did some more testing on the Test Track and watched the speed when the rpm's were at 3000 in each gear.

44mph is the slowest you want to be going in 2nd
60mph is the slowest you want to be going in 3rd
77mph is the slowest you want to be going in 4th
105mph is the slowest you want to be going in 5th
155 mph is the slowest you want to be going in 6th

If you shift up any sooner than this the Viper accelerates like a Fiat 500F!

So using my previous (and very arbitrary) speed limit of 90mph, a Dodge Viper owner would never use 5th or 6th gear in everyday life.

I just can't believe that a "real" Viper has gearing this tall.

Am I missing something?

Perhaps a visit to my local Dodge dealer is in order. If I tell them I'm a GT4 fanatic and need to see what speed is reached during the shift from 5th gear to 6th gear at 4000rpm, do you think that they would ok some seat time for me?

GTsail290

 

[DK]

Hey,Fammine who's eva?

My guess is either Eva Mendes or Eva Longoria. Oh, and you spelt "Famine" wrong. Tall gearing is good if you want to aim for 300mph. But not good if you want to do a sub-8 sec 1/4-mile because you're going to be worse off for acceleration. It's going to feel like starting in 2nd or 3rd gear.

 

[daan]

I don't see how the Viper could really have such tall gearing in "real" life. It can barely use its sixth gear!

The Viper's gearing in GT4 is entirely accurate to its gearing in real life, and people can and do use 6th gear.

Trying to apply real world driving instead of GT4 driving, I drove the Viper for a while to see where I might really shift gears if I was driving it on normal streets. I found that even though the Viper has a lot of torque, it does not really pull hard until the revs are higher than 3000 rpm's. So I think that in "everyday" driving, a Viper owner would stay in a gear long enough so that after a gear shift, the revs would not fall below 3000rpm. If you let the revs fall below 3000rpm, the car accelerates very slowly in a manner that I think all Viper owners would deplore.

Real life driving entails accelerating up through the gears to your chosen speed (be it 30mph, 40, 50 60 or 70) and staying there in a high gear. It does not entail hitting the rev limit in each gear on your way to 200mph. The Viper will happily pootle along at 70mph in 6th whilst barely over idling speed. It won't accelerate much from that, but you can always change down. 6th gear is designed to be that high to make fuel consumption lower.

In town (in a 30 limit), I use 1st to get moving from a standstill, change up to 2nd right away, into 3rd at 20, accelerate up to 30, then to 4th or 5th. A Viper owner would no doubt do roughly the same thing.

I must ask, can you drive? Can you drive a manual?

 

[GTsail]

The Viper's gearing in GT4 is entirely accurate to its gearing in real life, and people can and do use 6th gear.....

I must ask, can you drive? Can you drive a manual?

Daan - I bow to your superior knowledge of "real" Vipers. I have no first-hand knowledge of their gearing, so it seemed pretty tall to me. I have found a Road & Track review for a 2006 Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe, and it shows shift points that are remarketably close to the shift points that I noticed during my testing at the GT4 Test Course, so I think you are completely correct.

The Road & Track review says that the Viper can travel 60mph while in 6th gear, and the engine will turn 1150rpm. This is something I will test once I am thru with my current race (this will take a few days because I am currently running the 24hour La Sarthe race in 200 point tune).

As you may have guessed from my Avatar -- In "real" life I drive a Subaru WRX which is equipped with a manual transmission. I've been driving for 35 years so I understand that you can shift before the redline is reached (though I must admit that I occasionally enjoy reving my WRX up to the redline before shifting)

Speaking of Avatars: The movie Kelly's Heros was one crazy movie! Donald and Clint, what a combination!

Respectfully,
GTsail290

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I just can't believe that a "real" Viper has gearing this tall.

GTsail290

Quite simply, having the torque of a whale helps alot. Part of the reason the Viper's 6th is so tall is so that the car can achieve fuel-economy in the 20s (mpg) in real-life, assuming one does American speed limits at all times.

...yea....that'll happen!

Late-model Jaguars (S Type, XKR Performance, and XJ Coupe) are also known for their extremely tall gears. During my track tests for my website, for instance, the S-Type R barely edged into 6th gear, and then it lost a couple mph (170 to 168) once it finally kicked into 6th!

http://www.gtcarreviews.com/id164.html


Granted, I was driving it as an automatic, but it would probably still lose speed (while stock) in 6th even if it was driven further into the redline in 5th as a manual.

 

[GTsail]

.....
Late-model Jaguars (S Type, XKR Performance, and XJ Coupe) are also known for their extremely tall gears. During my track tests for my website, for instance, the S-Type R barely edged into 6th gear, and then it lost a couple mph (170 to 168) once it finally kicked into 6th!
......

Thanks Parnelli for the info on the Jaguars. I will check them out once I am done with my 24 hour race at La Sarthe (I am now 22 hours in).

I also read what you wrote in your Jaguar car review, and you really gave us a lot of good info.👍

I am very surprised by such tall gearing in the various cars that everyone's mentioned. Maybe I've been driving too many Subaru's (I'm on my third) and its time to get something with real power! I guess its like what you, Daan and Jim Prower mention, that it allows the cars to claim higher fuel mileage (maybe even to game the EPA system?)

Respectfully,
GTsail290

 

[ilovethescudo]

The Dodge Viper GTS seems to have tall stock gearing... here is the shift points at the redline
1st gear: 54 MPH
2nd gear: 82 MPH
3rd gear: 114 MPH
4th gear: 148 MPH
5th gear: 201 MPH
6th gear: Exact value is unknown because even with nitrous I couldn't reach it... my best estimate is 295 MPH.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Thanks Parnelli for the info on the Jaguars. I will check them out once I am done with my 24 hour race at La Sarthe (I am now 22 hours in).

I also read what you wrote in your Jaguar car review, and you really gave us a lot of good info.👍

I am very surprised by such tall gearing in the various cars that everyone's mentioned. Maybe I've been driving too many Subaru's (I'm on my third) and its time to get something with real power! I guess its like what you, Daan and Jim Prower mention, that it allows the cars to claim higher fuel mileage (maybe even to game the EPA system?)

Respectfully,
GTsail290

Mm hmm. Subarus are famous for their shorter gears. An exception here would be the SVX, which made an appearance in GT1 & GT2. These had 4-speed trannies that could push 166 mph while stock in 4th. They'd be doing about 6,000 rpms at this rate, while redline is 6,500. This doesn't sound as tall as the Vipers, Jags, and others discussed in this thread, but when you actually drove and raced an SVX with stock gears, boy did those gears feel tall!

But SVX aint in GT4, which means I've gone somewhat off-topic. Ah well...

 

[Famine]

Granted, I was driving it as an automatic, but it would probably still lose speed (while stock) in 6th even if it was driven further into the redline in 5th as a manual.

The S-Type R is an automatic, and I've had the fortune to drive a real one (in Onyx... Mmmmm).

The reason it loses speed is, simply, aerodynamics vs. power curve.

At 160mph the car needs to produce about 300hp at the crank just to maintain that speed. But at 160mph in 6th the engine is pushing about 4,000rpm, which equates to about 270hp - it not only won't maintain the speed, it'll lose it. At 160mph in 5th on the other hand, the engine's spinning at about 5,500rpm and throwing out 320hp - enough to move and accelerate.

At 70mph the car needs to produce 40hp to move. In 6th gear at 70mph it's spinning at about 1,750rpm - enough for more than 200hp. Again, it'll not only move, but accelerate - and it'll accelerate harder at 70mph in 6th than it will at 160mph in 5th.


Gearing isn't as simple as "Run out of revs so change up".

 

[zedextreme8177]

I noticed that too. Another similar car is the Viper Concept. It can barely get past 6th gear untuned, I would have addded shorter gearing. Same goes for the Cadillac Cién, with extremely slow shift times on top of that.

Same goes for the Nissan Skyline GTR 2001. It has 6 gears, but the 6th gear is basically useless, it barely managed to even hit the redline at 5th gear (on the Nurburgring's Long Downhill Straight).

 

[Austin343]

Yes, but the Cien, like many other concept supercars, comes as stock with a fully customizable transmission, so you don't even have to spend game money to make it not have tall gearing.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

The S-Type R is an automatic, and I've had the fortune to drive a real one (in Onyx... Mmmmm).

The reason it loses speed is, simply, aerodynamics vs. power curve.

At 160mph the car needs to produce about 300hp at the crank just to maintain that speed. But at 160mph in 6th the engine is pushing about 4,000rpm, which equates to about 270hp - it not only won't maintain the speed, it'll lose it. At 160mph in 5th on the other hand, the engine's spinning at about 5,500rpm and throwing out 320hp - enough to move and accelerate.

At 70mph the car needs to produce 40hp to move. In 6th gear at 70mph it's spinning at about 1,750rpm - enough for more than 200hp. Again, it'll not only move, but accelerate - and it'll accelerate harder at 70mph in 6th than it will at 160mph in 5th.


Gearing isn't as simple as "Run out of revs so change up".

Yes, I've had the ...uh..."fortune" of driving an S-Type as well in real-life, although not nearly close to Gran Turismo speeds. I think I had to drive it locally (60 mph tops) to diagnose a wheel balance problem.

We're both on the same page as far as gearing/aerodynamics/power discussion goes, you've just stated it more eloquently than I did. I was trying to illustrate that in GT4, the S-Type loses speed in 6th no matter if one pushes it past redline in 5th or lets it shift at redline in 5th. Mostly due to lack of power at those slower RPMs. If the car had a shorter 6th, it could keep gaining speed, though.

 

[Famine]

I must for legal reasons say that I had to drive it at 70mph or less.




It's probably worth noting that it runs out of ability to accelerate in 6th at about 150mph just shy of the 155mph "limiter". But the limiter isn't active in 5th gear, where it'll run to juuuuuust about 170mph. Which, oddly, is modelled very nicely indeed by GT4.

 

[granturismohero]

The Honda NSX has a pretty high shift limit.

The Dodge Viper GTS seems to have tall stock gearing... here is the shift points at the redline
1st gear: 54 MPH
2nd gear: 82 MPH
3rd gear: 114 MPH
4th gear: 148 MPH
5th gear: 201 MPH
6th gear: Exact value is unknown because even with nitrous I couldn't reach it... my best estimate is 295 MPH.

ROTFL!!!

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I must for legal reasons say that I had to drive it at 70mph or less.




It's probably worth noting that it runs out of ability to accelerate in 6th at about 150mph just shy of the 155mph "limiter". But the limiter isn't active in 5th gear, where it'll run to juuuuuust about 170mph. Which, oddly, is modelled very nicely indeed by GT4.

Oh yea, I forgot about the real-life speed limiter Jag uses for the real-life car. Very true.

The ironic thing is (in America, anyways) Jag shouldn't have even bothered to put a limiter in for us because these sort of Jags are the last cars you'll see hot-rodding around highways. A high percentage (I'll say 25%) of BMW drivers in America, for instance, are frequently very agro. Weaving in-and-out of traffic without turn signals inches away from other cars. Driving 20 or 30 mph above speed limit, even if traffic is relatively condensed. I believe this is due to the fact that BMW's literature, and reviews on their cars, often state how superior BMWs are; and so therefore their drivers make the mistake of thinking they're also superior! Jag drivers, on the other hand, are typically the older, slower, more dignified drivers that never take these risks. Not to say they don't do stupid things also, but you never see them lead-footing their expensive cars, even tho technically they could.

Anyways, found another car with very tall gears; the '05 Ford Mustang GT. Been doing the PD Cup lately, and totally forgot about the 'Stang. Check out 5th gear! You go from 4th to 5th, and it's like trying to climb a skyscraper.

I've been driving the Mustang around with stock power, and it does keep climbing in 5th, despite its blocky front-end, and that's without drafting another car. Even at Circuit de Sarthe, it keeps gathering speed. I haven't found its "wall" while racing, so far as absolute top speed goes. But even in 2nd gear, it just feels wrong/too tall for racing. It manages to pull out of corners in 2nd from about 3,500 rpms, but doesn't do so with much haste.

 

[gt4ishard]

has someone ever noticed the strange 4th and 5th gear on/in the VW Golf V GTI
there is almost no diffrence between the two

 

[Giygas]

Out of everything, the Toyota Prius technically has the highest gearing in the game.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

has someone ever noticed the strange 4th and 5th gear on/in the VW Golf V GTI
there is almost no diffrence between the two

Ya I know. Collossal PD screw-up. Some of the Acura Integras in the NTSC/N. American version of GT2 suffered the exact same dilemma (gears 3rd and 4th were almost exactly the same), as if the guy who was supposed to program gearing ratios got distracted as he did a shot of sake, perhaps.

The Renault Avantime (GT4) also has strange gearing. 1st and 2nd are fine, but then 3rd & 4th feel way short. 5th is taller, and then 6th is REALLY tall. I'm not sure if the Avantime is supposed to be geared this way, perhaps it is. I've nver been able to find a real-life gear-ratio chart on it, tho.

 

[PAPPACLART]

If people want to understand the importance of gearing you should be looking at thrust curves. A thrust Curve is torque multiplied by RPM/gear ratio etc and is usually measured is lbs. You can see what thrust your car is producing in any gear and at any speed which will indicate exactly how much force your car has at any of these points. Think of gear ratios as a multiplier of torque.

Often manufactures have to gear cars for an 'overall' performance where compromises have to be made. A car may have a theoretical top speed of 180mph if power/gearing/rpm/aerodynamics permit it, but it may only be able to achieve lets say 150mph still with 1000rpm left before the rev limiter is reached. There are many reasons for this, which depends on the purpose of the car. Unlike Superbikes even very focussed sports cars have to make compromises for Emissions, fuel economy, comfort/noise etc. Allot of cars can achieve there top speeds one gear below top, and because some cars with long gearing actually benefit from long gearing as they have allot of torque spread widely across the rpm range. Also Having very low gearing may improve 'in-gear' acceleration from certain speeds but gearing too low can actually hurt overall acceleration as lower gearing often means more gear changes to achieve top speed. Also, in each gear, a thrust curve follows the exact same path as an engines torque curve, with each thrust curve having a higher average and peak thrust the lower the gear, while each curve being more compressed and exaggerated the lower the gear as well as having a lower speed range.

An edited GSXR1000 with a TL1000 Values added. MAximum thrust is over 750lbs in 1st gear!!

[/url][/IMG]

If you look at the above image of my actual bike's Thrust curve you will see that in each gear at a certain point the thrust tails off, this is reminiscent of my torque curve. If you look at my Dyno curve, @ 8000rpm my torque curve drops off, and this is replicated in the thrust curve in each gear @ 8000rpm. By lowering gearing you may increase the maximum/peak thrust in each gear but at the same time you are also reducing the overall/average thrust across the speed range of each gear. So gears if lowered have more peak thrust, but also where torque dips, a drop in thrust is more pronounced and if geared too low more thrust may be available at the particular speed you need to accelerate from if you change up a gear.


(*PS in a bit of a rush as have to leave work so sorry if I have not explained properly*)

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Thanks PAPPALCART. If only more people cared about technical data, perhaps PD would fully return proper gearing charts & horsepower charts. I'm hoping they do this for GT5. The first Gran Turismo & GT2 had these charts, then PD dropped them from GT3. GT4 brought them back, but they're virtually useless because they're not as detailed as they were in the first 2 games. 👎