Do Flat Floors Slow You Down?

Downforce of a car is measured in kg, so in a sense it may as well be called as weight added to the tire load :) SaReNi United listed in their statement that the Camaro GT3 has low downforce :

(downforce front/rear at 200 km/h: 40 kg/250 kg
 
Part of the reason flat floors reduce top speed is because flat floors reduce lift. Lift actually improves a vehicles top speed, in a very narrow range of course. That is one of the reasons land speed cars can achieve such immense speeds, because they're actually designed to float over the ground, with an almost microscopic pillow of air between the tires and ground which reduces friction and rolling resistence, that and having as slim of tires as possible to not only reduce rolling resistence but also move through the air as efficiently as possible. The combination of downforce created by the flat floor AND diffuser amplifies the friction and rolling resistence of the tires which in themselves also have their own properties amplified by the action of the downforce and rate of speed (ie sidewall flex, increased contact area). All this works together to reduce top speed. Maybe someone can explain it better as dynamics are definitely not my strong suit, but this is what I have gathered by reading many articles on racing from land speed record attempts to Formula 1.
 
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Air has mass. Mass (of air being displaced by the front of the car) does affect top speed. You're right, but you're 99% wrong. It's not the weight of the car, but rather the weight of the air being moved aside.


If you were trying to get through a large group of people, whose arms were linked together, you would have to move them. That would slow you down. Now think of yourself as a car, surrounded by billions of air molecules. :)

And all the air in space?...

But never mind, I was just interested to hear someone explain how weight does not effect speed yet weight (or more accurately mass) limits top speed in physics. Though I would like to hear why you spouted all the stuff about the air... Had nothing to do with what I said at all, but lets keep this on topic :P. Lets stick to what happens in the game.
 
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It effects top speed if distance to achieve it is limited.. Once you get 3000 lbs (or 10,000 lbs) rolling it doesn't take many RPMs to keep it rolling right? And you only need most of those RPMs because the air that is slowing you down.
 
I think, flatfloors in GT6 are useful, if you want to turn a certain roadcar into kinda touring car.
Additionally, if they want it useful as proper tuning option, they should reduce the ammount of pp, flatfloors "steal".
20 pp more on your car, if you install flatfloor right now - 0 pp more for aeros... not that useful and balanced in my opinion.
 
No, it's working properly. Adding downforce does not make a car go faster in a straight line. Otherwise every drag racer in real life would be running flat floors and diffusers. Last I checked, none of them do.

Yes, it reduces drag, but at the expense of top speed. Flat floors and diffusers help with cornering speeds.
They don't have diffusers because they don't go round corners. Therefore it would be unnecessary to add something that only adds weight.

Anyway, diffusers will reduce top speed on a microscopic level if you're going a million miles an hour. Hence the land speed record quote above. Flat floors will do nothing but improve airflow under the car, not creating drag.

The way they're modeled in GT6 is very wrong indeed.

EDIT - Also by the laws of physics, reducing drag cannot decrease the top speed. Drag is what slows cars down.
 
And all the air in space?...

But never mind, I was just interested to hear someone explain how weight does not effect speed yet weight (or more accurately mass) limits top speed in physics. Though I would like to hear why you spouted all the stuff about the air... Had nothing to do with what I said at all, but lets keep this on topic :P. Lets stick to what happens in the game.

Output placed in something obviously dictates somewhat how fast it ultimately can go with the given weight it has, the problem is that weight isn't the issue of downforce as you later fixed, it is rather a force measured. The force generated is what ultimately slows the car down over time along with air friction/resistance and what not. However, you're correct also becasue what has been neglected as well is over a duration of time that moving system will lose weight in energy stored/used and thus become faster because it is lighter and easier to move with the aero properties it has been give.

However at the end of the day the majority of the issue when going for top speed comes down to the fluidity of air going around the vehicle and trying to minimize the affect of air resistance to achieve whatever top speed you set out for. Hence why it isn't a matter of less weight or more output sometimes if the properties of the car going through the air are the same.
 
rosckolove
You don't really need math. Weight doesn't effect the top speed of a car. Eventually the engine will overcome the weight, It just
takes longer for an engine to push a heavier car to that top speed. What effects top speed is engine output, aerodynamics and air density. Basically how hard the engine can push the car through the air. The "downforce" provided by aerodynamic devices slows the car because it generally becomes less streamline, and in turn is pushing more air. So even if downforce did add weight to the car so to speak (which it doesn't) it wouldn't slow the car because of that weight, just the drag caused by whatever is providing the downforce.

So reaching the speed of light is just a matter of time for any engine? Mass MUST impact on top speed, otherwise we could achieve light speed travel. From my understanding the reason why anything with mass can not reach the speed of light is that mass increases with velocity. But you are saying mass does not matter so I am confused as to why light speed travel is not achievable?...

I'm interested how gearing plays a part in this.

Since once you're at higher speeds, you must be in a higher gear, which puts less torque to the drive wheels, and cannot accelerate the car as hard - thats independent of wind resistance right?

Its like the faster you are already moving, the harder it is to accelerate, regardless of weight or aerodynamics?
not even approaching light-speed, just the difference between 40kmh in first gear, and 200kmh in fifth.
 
I'm interested how gearing plays a part in this.

Since once you're at higher speeds, you must be in a higher gear, which puts less torque to the drive wheels, and cannot accelerate the car as hard - thats independent of wind resistance right?

Its like the faster you are already moving, the harder it is to accelerate, regardless of weight or aerodynamics?
not even approaching light-speed, just the difference between 40kmh in first gear, and 200kmh in fifth.

Removing aerodynamics from the equation, even if acceleration is reduced, it is still acceleration.
If an internal combustion engine could work in a vacuum, with the right gearing you could reach any speed you wanted, however it could take an extremely long time to reach those speeds.
That said, at higher speeds friction from moving parts may be what causes the car to reach terminal velocity.
 
So reaching the speed of light is just a matter of time for any engine? Mass MUST impact on top speed, otherwise we could achieve light speed travel. From my understanding the reason why anything with mass can not reach the speed of light is that mass increases with velocity. But you are saying mass does not matter so I am confused as to why light speed travel is not achievable?...

Mass does not impact on top speed, but it impacts on acceleration. The closer to the speed of light that an object travels, the more energy is required to accelerate it further. To achieve lightspeed, an infinite amount of energy would be required and that's why lightspeed is undoable. In theory.

A car travels very far from the speed of light, and thus the energy requirements to accelerate it due to mass alone is minimal. Far far greater is the energy required to overcome the drag force of the air that the car travels through.
 
Downforce of a car is measured in kg, so in a sense it may as well be called as weight added to the tire load :) SaReNi United listed in their statement that the Camaro GT3 has low downforce :

Hopefully you mean the suspension load, not the tire load.
Downforce is meant to square with speed so your Camaro's front downforce should work out at 1 gramme per km²
 
I think it's pretty safe to conclude that "flat floors" don't work the way they should in GT6. With or without diffusers (don't know if they put them on cars with flat floors I never looked) they should increase top speed by reducing drag and smoothing out the airflow under the car. If designed properly they would also increase downforce like so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuser_(automotive)

When a diffuser is used, the air flows into the underbody from the front and sides of the car, accelerates and reduces pressure. There is a suction peak at the transition of the flat bottom and diffuser. The diffuser then eases this high velocity air back to normal velocity and also helps fill in the area behind the car making the whole underbody a more efficient downforce producing device by reducing drag on the car and increasing downforce. The diffuser also imparts upward momentum to the air which further increases downforce.
 
I think it's pretty safe to conclude that "flat floors" don't work the way they should in GT6. With or without diffusers (don't know if they put them on cars with flat floors I never looked) they should increase top speed by reducing drag and smoothing out the airflow under the car. If designed properly they would also increase downforce like so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuser_(automotive)

When a diffuser is used, the air flows into the underbody from the front and sides of the car, accelerates and reduces pressure. There is a suction peak at the transition of the flat bottom and diffuser. The diffuser then eases this high velocity air back to normal velocity and also helps fill in the area behind the car making the whole underbody a more efficient downforce producing device by reducing drag on the car and increasing downforce. The diffuser also imparts upward momentum to the air which further increases downforce.
It's common to fit a diffuser to road cars just to improve the aero a little, but usually a diffuser is coupled with a flat floor. Full diffusers can be a little tricky to mount without a proper floor to attach them to.
 
It's common to fit a diffuser to road cars just to improve the aero a little, but usually a diffuser is coupled with a flat floor. Full diffusers can be a little tricky to mount without a proper floor to attach them to.
But one would think that wouldn't be an issue in a videogame and every floor should be installed perfectly.
 
I agree with some of you and disagree with some others. What I'm surprised about, is how quickly some of you form up your own theory from bits and pieces of basic theories from Wikipedia, which is in itself not bad at all, but rather the way you confirm its truth rather way too quickly purely because it satisfies trivial common sense. Now this particularly does not work very well for fluid dynamics, because in reality it is necessary to take an object's shape into consideration...hence the only proper way of doing it would be calculating this 'black magic' numerically (Computational Fluid Dynamics) and test it in practice in windtunnels.

One theory I see in this topic that will satisfy common sense, but unfortunately is untrue is that smooth airflow means that there is less drag. One famous(?) counter example is the golf ball: a ball with dimples compared to a perfectly smooth ball will have far less air-induced drag, while its airflow is absolutely far less smooth at the same time. The reason is that with the dimples, a small boundary layer of turbulent air (meaning chaotic) is created that actually helps the ball travel further. The surrounding air therefore gets less of a chance to take away kinetic energy from the ball.

Another thing is that people will think that a square object will always be less aerodynamic than a pointy thing, which is also incorrect. The Nissan GT-R is a perfect example of this being false, mainly because a lot of aerodynamic drag is not only dependent on the frontal area, but also how the airflow is over the car beyond that, even for a few more metres behind the car. A droplet shape would be one of the most aerodynamic shapes for a car to have and that's why a Porsche 911 is relatively efficient on this matter. The reason that the shape of the back is the most important in a design is the formation of complex air vortices, which dissipate energy. Now the thing is, the effect is entirely the opposite of the golf ball: the formation of air vortices now substantially creates extra aerodynamic drag. Why? Because the vortices aren't nicely arranged in a nice boundary layer this time, but also simply because a car is never shaped like a ball.

The only correct conclusion therefore is: unless you can perform CFD calculations in your head, it's impossible to say anything about aerodynamic drag purely based on 'common sense'. The subject of aerodynamics is as super-counterintuitive as you can get, really. My advice: throw the common sense out of the way and only base your conclusions on real-life examples and calculations when talking about aerodynamics.

Now to answer the main question: a flat floor and diffuser on a car add both downforce and aerodynamic drag, so qualitatively GT6 has this modeled correctly. The excellent real-life example of Ridox2JZGTE also underlines this.
Also, I have a bachelor's final report of a friend of mine here which is about the design of the undertray of a Formula Student racing car, which include numerical calculations. The conclusion is that the floor and diffuser do create more drag while contribute to more downforce. The reason: air underneath the car accelerates enough that it falls into the turbulent region (high Reynold's number); the turbulent airflow dissipates energy and creates more drag. The higher air velocity goes hand in hand with a lower pressure area beneath the car, creating a net negative lift (downforce). Key note: this conclusion can only be accepted for a car of 1:1 size, because the effect of airflow over a much smaller object can be vastly different. And even more so when the shape is different. But generally, unfortunately a flat floor will create more drag on a car.
 
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I agree with some of you and disagree with some others. What I'm surprised about, is how quickly some of you form up your own theory from bits and pieces of basic theories from Wikipedia, which is in itself not bad at all, but rather the way you confirm its truth rather way too quickly purely because it satisfies trivial common sense. Now this particularly does not work very well for fluid dynamics, because in reality it is necessary to take an object's shape into consideration...hence the only proper way of doing it would be calculating this 'black magic' numerically (Computational Fluid Dynamics) and test it in practice in windtunnels.

One theory I see in this topic that will satisfy common sense, but unfortunately is untrue is that smooth airflow means that there is less drag. One famous(?) counter example is the golf ball: a ball with dimples compared to a perfectly smooth ball will have far less air-induced drag, while its airflow is absolutely far less smooth at the same time. The reason is that with the dimples, a small boundary layer of turbulent air (meaning chaotic) is created that actually helps the ball travel further. The surrounding air therefore gets less of a chance to take away kinetic energy from the ball.

Another thing is that people will think that a square object will always be less aerodynamic than a pointy thing, which is also incorrect. The Nissan GT-R is a perfect example of this being false, mainly because a lot of aerodynamic drag is not only dependent on the frontal area, but also how the airflow is over the car beyond that, even for a few more metres behind the car. A droplet shape would be one of the most aerodynamic shapes for a car to have and that's why a Porsche 911 is relatively efficient on this matter. The reason that the shape of the back is the most important in a design is the formation of complex air vortices, which dissipate energy. Now the thing is, the effect is entirely the opposite of the golf ball: the formation of air vortices now substantially creates extra aerodynamic drag. Why? Because the vortices aren't nicely arranged in a nice boundary layer this time, but also simply because a car is never shaped like a ball.

The only correct conclusion therefore is: unless you can perform CFD calculations in your head, it's impossible to say anything about aerodynamic drag purely based on 'common sense'. The subject of aerodynamics is as super-counterintuitive as you can get, really. My advice: throw the common sense out of the way and only base your conclusions on real-life examples and calculations when talking about aerodynamics.

Now to answer the main question: a flat floor and diffuser on a car add both downforce and aerodynamic drag, so qualitatively GT6 has this modeled correctly. The excellent real-life example of Ridox2JZGTE also underlines this.
Also, I have a bachelor's final report of a friend of mine here which is about the design of the undertray of a Formula Student racing car, which include numerical calculations. The conclusion is that the floor and diffuser do create more drag while contribute to more downforce. The reason: air underneath the car accelerates enough that it falls into the turbulent region (high Reynold's number); the turbulent airflow dissipates energy and creates more drag. The higher air velocity goes hand in hand with a lower pressure area beneath the car, creating a net negative lift (downforce). Key note: this conclusion can only be accepted for a car of 1:1 size, because the effect of airflow over a much smaller object can be vastly different. And even more so when the shape is different. But generally, unfortunately a flat floor will create more drag on a car.
In GT6 IIRC, when you install a flat floor, it's simply that, a flat floor or underbelly to the car, no diffusers, no side skirts or nothing else to channel or alter airflow in any way. All it does is create a flatter profile under the car with the intention of "improving airflow". Are you saying that a car with a jumbled mess underneath will be faster (top speed) than one with a basic flat floor?
 
In GT6 IIRC, when you install a flat floor, it's simply that, a flat floor or underbelly to the car, no diffusers, no side skirts or nothing else to channel or alter airflow in any way. All it does is create a flatter profile under the car with the intention of "improving airflow". Are you saying that a car with a jumbled mess underneath will be faster (top speed) than one with a basic flat floor?
Yes.
(well, it can, I would never say anything definite on this subject)

For the same reason an un-dimpled golf ball doesn't go as far.
 
In GT6 IIRC, when you install a flat floor, it's simply that, a flat floor or underbelly to the car, no diffusers, no side skirts or nothing else to channel or alter airflow in any way. All it does is create a flatter profile under the car with the intention of "improving airflow". Are you saying that a car with a jumbled mess underneath will be faster (top speed) than one with a basic flat floor?
Simply: absolutely, based on a report backed up with CFD calculations....supervised by a prof. specialised in aerodynamics. Also, your logic only works in the laminar region of airflow, which is at very low speed.

Let me put it to you like this: the flatter profile means that there is less aero drag by molecules that collide with 'uneven' parts at the bottom of the car, that's true. However, at the same time the air speed increase means a more turbulent airflow (in case of a car moving at 'car' speeds...from a few m/s to 80-100 or whatever). This airflow will dramatically increase drag.

Another examples that show that a 'slippery surface' at high speed does not give the lowest amount of drag possible:
- The winglets on the front of the Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0
- The 'flaps' near the wheel arches on the Corvette C6 Z06
- Specially designed diving/ice skating suits that contain fins and gills to...yes, reduce drag.
 
That defies physics. Improved airflow underneath = less drag = top speed increase.

Simply: absolutely, based on a report backed up with CFD calculations....supervised by a prof. specialised in aerodynamics. Also, your logic only works in the laminar region of airflow, which is at very low speed.

Let me put it to you like this: the flatter profile means that there is less aero drag by molecules that collide with 'uneven' parts at the bottom of the car, that's true. However, at the same time the air speed increase means a more turbulent airflow (in case of a car moving at 'car' speeds...from a few m/s to 80-100 or whatever). This airflow will dramatically increase drag.

Another examples that show that a 'slippery surface' at high speed does not give the lowest amount of drag possible:
- The winglets on the front of the Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0
- The 'flaps' near the wheel arches on the Corvette C6 Z06
- Specially designed diving/ice skating suits that contain fins and gills to...yes, reduce drag.
These examples are all vanes and small aero devices which improve stability and help to channel the airflow, not to simply reduce drag. If that were to be the case, every race car would have a mess of turning vanes glued to the chassis.
 
No, it defies "common sense".
Be careful not to confuse your own personal impressions with "physics".
I've explained it above. The examples given, such as the golf balls, are about aerodynamic stability and not a sole reduction in drag. Some may cross paths when analysed, but as I said, if your point were to be the case, all race cars would have a horrible mess of turning vanes and NACA ducts on the floor.
 
That defies physics. Improved airflow underneath = less drag = top speed increase.


These examples are all vanes and small aero devices which improve stability and help to channel the airflow, not to simply reduce drag. If that were to be the case, every race car would have a mess of turning vanes glued to the chassis.
You're contradicting yourself. 'Help channeling airflow' is exactly one of the main things that attribute to the effect of less aerodynamic drag.

The logic about putting lots of these things on race cars is really flawed and doesn't say in any way that smoother airflow (flat floor) always results in less drag, because putting on a small flap to improve airflow doesn't mean that putting on 100 flaps will result in a much better airflow...

I've explained it above. The examples given, such as the golf balls, are about aerodynamic stability and not a sole reduction in drag. Some may cross paths when analysed, but as I said, if your point were to be the case, all race cars would have a horrible mess of turning vanes and NACA ducts on the floor.
What kind of 'aerodynamic stability' are you talking about?
 
I've explained it above. The examples given, such as the golf balls, are about aerodynamic stability and not a sole reduction in drag. Some may cross paths when analysed, but as I said, if your point were to be the case, all race cars would have a horrible mess of turning vanes and NACA ducts on the floor.
No, because they like downforce and good cornering and stability.
 
You're contradicting yourself. 'Help channeling airflow' is exactly one of the main things that attribute to the effect of less aerodynamic drag.

The logic about putting lots of these things on race cars is really flawed and doesn't say in any way that smoother airflow always results in less drag, because putting on a small flap to improve airflow doesn't mean that putting on 100 flaps will result in a much better airflow...
Help to channel airflow for stability. Aerodynamic consistency and stability, in order to balance said object in a certain way.

If you were to glue a vane onto the flat floor of a race car, it would slow it down, unless the rest of the car was specifically designed to work in conjuction with said vane.

No, because they like downforce and good cornering and stability.
If the car was designed specifically to incorporate a complex underside, maybe in a similar way to an advanced ground effects theory, then it is possible that them working in conjunction with each other would produce a higher top speed.

Just stamping dimples or vanes onto a flat chassis? No chance.
 
Let me put it to you like this: the flatter profile means that there is less aero drag by molecules that collide with 'uneven' parts at the bottom of the car, that's true. However, at the same time the air speed increase means a more turbulent airflow (in case of a car moving at 'car' speeds...from a few m/s to 80-100 or whatever). This airflow will dramatically increase drag.
Maybe I'm missing something so help me out here. You put a perfectly flat floor on a car for example, how does it have less aero drag but more turbulence than a car with a jumpled mess underneath? How does a perfectly flat surface (the underside of the car) running over another relatively flat surface (the road) create more turbulence than a jumbled mess running over the same flat road?
 
Maybe I'm missing something. You put a perfectly flat floor on a car for example, how does it have less aero drag but more turbulence than a car with a jumpled mess underneath? How does a perfectly flat surface (the underside of the car) running over another relatively flat surface (the road) create more turbulence than a jumbled mess running over the same flat road?
Because at 'normal car speeds' (several tens of m/s), the air under the car is already turbulent. A flatter surface makes the air even more turbulent purely because the air velocity will be higher. The net effect is more energy-dissipating airflow that increase drag.

Turbulent means that the air molecule does almost certainly not follow the path of the surrounding air molecules surrounding it (longitudinally across the car's length), as opposed to a laminar flow where the airflow follows the shape of the car floor much better. So a flat floor would only reduce drag when a car is going really slowly...but then the total aerodynamic drag itself is rather low as well, so the effect of reduced drag is not even noticeable. However, when a car travels at a speed anything higher than 'turtle mode', there is a 'turning point' in which the airflow becomes turbulent and this introduces energy-dissipating vortices which are dominant over the gains in 'less surface for the air molecules to collide with' (due to the surface being more slippery) -> more drag.
 
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