Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

  • Thread starter eKretz
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RacerXX, bought in bulk, I think it wouldn't add more than $100 cost to the wheel, which I would have been happy to pay for the extra quality. At the very least they could have stuck some bearing Buchis in there. I forgot to add earlier, the B's are very low-cogging also, but they do have a smidge more inertia. Howevr, IMO, at the reduction ratio in the base, it's not really noticeable.
 
Yeah, I'm sure there are other options that would be an improvement. Anything would be better durability-wise than the Fana-Buchis. RacerXX are you hand-winding your own motors or having them done somewhere? (Didn't you say you re-wound some?) Ideally, we could find a replacement with removable endbells (easily rebuildable) and adjustable timing even. I really picked up the Buhlers as a first shot because they were cheap, similar in size and their reliability rep is outstanding. I have even thought about machining my own water-cooled cans and just adding the guts from something good.
 
RacerXX
None of the bases from any company impress me much RE cooling. Even the high end wheels have cooling woes. Some of the high end wheel makers offer add-on water cooling too. Basically all of them have crappy cooling IMO.
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It is too bad Leo Bodnar does not come to these forums. He may be able to answer some of the questions you are having.

On that subject, this is interesting information:

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/10305-Leo-Bodnar-FFB-wheel-pre-annoncement

t49ffmapni9o.jpg
 
The Bodnar wheel will be creme de la creme, no doubt, but I sure don't have $3-4,000 to spend on a wheel. Better for me to buy a good solid foundation like the CSW or Elite and beef it up as I can afford to. As has been said, the Fanatec product is an excellent platform for modding, being good and solidly built from the get-go.

As far as sleeve-bearing motors, sure, you can just make bearing brackets for the pulleys like the Japanese guy did or float the motors so they aren't getting hit with a side-load, but why go to all the extra trouble when you can just get a ball-bearing motor? It sure simplifies things.

I totally agree with you about the single most important factor being the cooling. No question about it. What wire are you using to do your rewinds? Or are you just using wire from some old spare motors?
 
RacerXX
Some folks love brushless motors. But brushed are simpler and can often have advantages at the extremely low RPMs (near stall) sim wheels see quite often. A better brushed motor might be the best way to go in mass market sim wheels.
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This depends much on the type of brushless motor as there are many many kinds. Much like the brushed motors. As quality goes up, so does price in both of course.

A brushless motor with slotless design results in no cogging/notching. If then coupled to a sine drive, there is little torque ripple due to sinusoidal back emf. These can be found for reasonable prices when compared objectively to similar brushed counterparts.
 
eKretz
The Bodnar wheel will be creme de la creme, no doubt, but I sure don't have $3-4,000 to spend on a wheel.
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The price for this new wheel has not been released. I am sorry though. I was posting it as example of wheel without extra cooling.
 
The price for this new wheel has not been released. I am sorry though. I was posting it as example of wheel without cooling.
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No, it hasn't, but it's pretty well understood where the cost will lie. The cost of the single servo motor itself will be a 4-figure price. Leo himself has said he is trying to keep the cost under $4,000. His setup should require no cooling because he is using such powerful motors that they will hardly be taxed at all during use.

I can say this FOR SURE. There is no doubt in my mid at all from my R&D that the CSW / Elite can wind up much stronger, with little or no FFB fade from heat after long/hard use, and with more subtlety/feel all at the same time.
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And to nip it in the bud before anyone misunderstands, RacerXX is saying the CSW/Elite can end up much stronger than stock...not much stronger than Bodnar's servo wheel.
 
eKretz
No, it hasn't, but it's pretty well understood where the cost will lie. The cost of the single servo motor itself will be a 4-figure price. Leo himself has said he is trying to keep the cost under $4,000. His setup should require no cooling because he is using such powerful motors that they will hardly be taxed at all during use.



And to nip it in the bud before anyone misunderstands, RacerXX is saying the CSW/Elite can end up much stronger than stock...not much stronger than Bodnar's servo wheel.
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I have wondered if this is why people do not complain of the T500 wheel losing strength. Though I did see one person say this, no one else though that I see. I have wondered if they are not fully use the power of the motor. It does not get hot, even on it's shaft.

Sorry I am getting off the subject. :)

I do not think anyone will be thinking his mods to the Fanatec wheels will be surpassing 15nm of torque :crazy:
 
I have wondered if this is why people do not complain of the T500 wheel losing strength. Though I did see one person say this, no one else though that I see. I have wondered if they are not fully use the power of the motor. It does not get hot, even on it's shaft.
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Actually I have seen several posts from people complaining about motor overheating on their T500's. I would find it pretty difficult to believe if you tried to tell me the FFB motor didn't get hot after a long period of racing. The can will get hotter than the shaft. In point of fact, I remember seeing a post about some guys endurance racing at the 'Ring with a T500 saying they were turning down in-game FFB to 1 in GT5 so they wouldn't fry their wheel. I also remember there being explicit instructions in the T500 user manual about leaving the wheel powered on until the cooling fan shuts itself off thermostatically or you risk ruining the FFB motor.

I still fear the Left Turn Of Death™ which can take place using Xbox. I am sure that has killed off a number of Elites. When in the menus the wheel turns hard left and sits there straining against the physical stop until you power down or something breaks or burns up.
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I had this happen a few times while playing Forza with my Elite. Once it happened during a race, I had to try to finish the race with full FFB force trying to go left or shut off the wheel and quit the race. Needless to say I quit, being afraid to damage the wheel.

I wonder what Bodnar's wheel can do forcewise.
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I would not at all be surprised if it was capable of more than 50-60 Nm, and stock, the Fanatec CSW/Elite are around 4 Nm.
 
RacerXX, I was just timing my CSW's start-up sequence as you suggested. The stock wheel ranges from 7-9 seconds. This is dependent on whether you start it when it is centered or at one of its extremities, so the numbers may not be relevant from iracing.com. They are fairly repeatable if you start centered though.

As far as anyone complaining that the T500 or CSW/RE are losing FFB power with heat, it was never mentioned anywhere that I saw either until I brought it up. I would imagine if anyone would take the time to do an objective test, one would find that it too loses power when it gets hot. Whether it is more or less is anyone's guess until someone checks it out.
 
Some of this is this "FUD" people speak of I am thinking.

eKretz
Actually I have seen several posts from people complaining about motor overheating on their T500's.
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https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8069657#post8069657
I have only seen Michelcleo on T500 thread here talk of this (edit, he is sure now)... Do you know of others? I cannot remember any

eKretz
I would find it pretty difficult to believe if you tried to tell me the FFB motor didn't get hot after a long period of racing. The can will get hotter than the shaft.
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"not hot" subjective terms is not hot too touch. I will need to check with my friend to get measurements of can and shaft again for you. I am sorry I do not mean to say "shaft" I am speaking of the coils inside on shaft? This is what I mean. Measuring the outside of a motor is only effective to compare a motor against itself.

eKretz
In point of fact, I remember seeing a post about some guys endurance racing at the 'Ring with a T500 saying they were turning down in-game FFB to 1 in GT5 so they wouldn't fry their wheel.
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https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8123234#post8123234
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8123429#post8123429
He said this because he was afraid and not because he knew he had to do this.

eKretz
I also remember there being explicit instructions in the T500 user manual about leaving the wheel powered on until the cooling fan shuts itself off thermostatically or you risk ruining the FFB motor.
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That is not in the manual. It is in a FAQ:

http://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/accessories/Manuals/T500RS/T500RS_Cooling_fan_operation.pdf

When you’re done playing: due to the motor’s thermal inertia, the cooling fan continues to
operate until the temperature drops below the fan’s startup level. Your wheel has been
designed in this way in order to facilitate cooling, and to protect the motor.
(= this may take from 5 to 45 minutes, depending on the temperature reached while using the wheel in a
game)
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I do not have a care for either wheel really. I just supposed this based on some testing I had done on the wheel.
 
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eKretz
As far as anyone complaining that the T500 or CSW/RE are losing FFB power with heat, it was never mentioned anywhere that I saw either until I brought it up. I would imagine if anyone would take the time to do an objective test, one would find that it too loses power when it gets hot. Whether it is more or less is anyone's guess until someone checks it out.
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Hi ,
You are correct, i've even had hardcore racers say the t500rs des'nt lose torque after racing for 30/40mins and more, i do'nt believe them anymore and they probly dont see whats infront of them as they say they keep power.

I noticed ths on my first t500 straight away, i had 3 that done this and i settled with what i have now even though it still loses torque and feels like its powered by an elastic band.

My motors cool ( 3 fans ) so its not that thats losing torque i think ;)
I did want to heatsink the mofsets ect but now i have soe buttkickers on the cockpit i dont think thats a good idea.
Maybe i can isolate the wheel from the frame using rubber isolators i have quite a few spare from the buttkickers.
I'm ok anyway if i play multiplayer games that last 10/15min as by time lobby has loaded and then new race loads my ffb s back to being strong again.


Back on topic, i was hovering over the csw and csp2 the other day, i spent all day hovering over thebuy it now but its threads like these that have good info that stopped me, after all i experience the same loss of torque witha t500rs and its been confrmed by you guys the csw ect has the same issues !

I just brught 2 buttkickers advances instead and a amp as i allready have a wheel that lses torque lol

I'll be keeping my eye on this thread, one day i will get a csw ect or see if they have new wheels for new consoles, may aswell wait and see :)

Thanks everybody, your info is like gold :)
 
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ViaContra
This is not much time for a motor this large to cool. The cooling must be working well
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Hi,
I have a 60mm on the stock fan, and 2x 92mm on both top vent holes, these are powered from my pc usng a 4 in 1 molex to fan header, the same molex to fan cable allso powers a 120m fan thats on my buttkickers amp ;) lol
They are sealed with double sided foam so they only pull the air from within the wheels case ;)

There was also 2 fans inside my last wheel, there was 7 in total lol and t kept its power for much longer but then after a few weeks it allso started to lose its power quite fast, maybe i cooled somebits and the other bitts that was'nt cool started to fail ? dno.

I think i will rder the heatsinks todday as the isolators should stop the most hardest of vbrations from working the heatsinks loose.
 
I have only seen Michelcleo on T500 thread here talk of this and he is still not sure... Do you know of others? I cannot remember any
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It sounds to me as though he is quite sure, and with 4 different wheels, no less; but actually yes I do remember at least one off the top of my head:

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/2281-All-Thrustmaster-T500-rs-owners-come-to-this-thread!!!

This appears to be a little more in-depth info on michelcleo's issues:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18475570

One quick google search turned this up on the first page:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/pc-gaming/1719301-thrustmaster-t500-rs-faulty-issues.html

And I have seen several others. I didn't mean just at GTPlanet. As far as the T500 wheel getting hot, it is getting hot. The fans wouldn't blow out hot air otherwise. I am really not too interested in temps at the motor for the T500...what interests me is whether the wheel loses any degree of FFB over time as heat builds. If someone with a T500 would scale the max strength cold, then put it through some real paces and then just scale the wheel with a fish scale or other method, we'd know without a doubt. Don't forget also, that this weakening is when running pretty high levels of FFB. If people aren't running their wheels high, they may not be getting the heat built up enough to weaken the FFB. I have strong arms, I like strong FFB.

As far as the manual vs.FAQ warning, does it really matter? Both are official communication from Thrustmaster.

This problem wasn't brought to light here before I mentioned it for the CSR E and CSW, most likely because most people don't notice it. It reduces power gradually, so if you aren't observant/cognizant, you'd never even realize it without testing.

Also, don't get me wrong. You sound as though you feel you need to defend the T500. I'm not saying that the Fanatec wheels are better than the T500 by any means. I've never even touched a T500, so I'm not qualified to give an opinion there.
 
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eKretz
It sounds to me as though he is quite sure, but actually yes I do remember at least one off the top of my head:

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/2281-All-Thrustmaster-T500-rs-owners-come-to-this-thread!!!

And I have seen several others. I didn't mean just at GTPlanet. As far as the T500 wheel getting hot, it is getting hot. The fans wouldn't blow out hot air otherwise. I am really not too interested in temps at the motor for the T500...what interests me is whether the wheel loses any degree of FFB over time as heat builds. If someone with a T500 would scale the max strength cold, then put it through some real paces and then just scale the wheel with a fish scale or other method, we'd know without a doubt.
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Hi ,

I'm 100% sure the t500 loses torque hence the reason i kept sending them back, i'll never believe anybody that says they dont lose anything as i have had 3 v2's and a v4 i have now that all done it.

I'll have a look round town later and if i see something cheap ill grab it ;)

Personally from experience in time trials id say after 1 hours nonstop time trials
the t500rs i have had lose 30/60% of there torque but that is really a guess.
If using 80% power the wheel will go weak after a few races. ( 10 min or arounds )

After a 3 hour session the wheel is so weak its pathetic, i was doing time trials for prizes, as you can see i came 4th ;) so i work the wheel hard theres no doubt in that ;)
http://game.raceroom.com/competitions/2/leaderboard
 
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