GT6 Tuning Forum - New Physics

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by Motor City Hami, May 17, 2013.

  1. Motor City Hami

    United States Dearborn, MI
    PSN:MotorCtyHamilton

    Reckless speculation, but with KW's help, will PD's suspension tuning descriptions be more clear than what we have today in GT5?

    From the KW Suspension website... Yep. Just as cryptic as the GT5 wording. :tup:

    Adjusting Bump:
    Bump forces, especially on low damper speeds, have a great influence on handling and driving behavior of your car. The setting of the bump forces will be made from the bottom of the shock case. Behind the adjusting groove you gain access to a knob with 4 holes. With the supplied small pin, the adjusting knob can be turned a quarter per turn in either direction. Smaller increments are possible. Before performing any adjustments, the valve must be closed by turning the adjuster in the full clockwise direction. In this position, the shock will be at full hard, or “maximum power”. From here, the adjustment range is 8 x turns (2 full revolutions). To avoid the mismatch of the dampers when actively changing settings, you should close the valve from time to time to re-calibrate the settings from side to side.

    Bump adjusting principles:
    Generally, hard low speed bump settings will stabilize the corresponding axle (less oversteer on the rear, for example) or offer the front a more precise steering response. Too much low speed bump power will decrease grip! Depending on the valve configuration found inside the kit, maximum bump forces will not influence the suspensions response when encountering hard bumps, such as curbs on the racetrack.

    Adjusting Rebound:
    Rebound adjusting principles:
    Generally, low rebound settings provide a comfortable ride at low speeds, but decreases stability at higher speeds, especially on the front axles. Too much rebound will cost vehicle grip. Depending on the drive train configuration of the car, rebound setting for the rear axle will vary.

    Rear and four wheel drive cars:
    In most cases, the rear shocks will be set with low rebound power. Except, when equipped with very hard springs, higher rebound forces will be required.

    Front wheel drive cars:
    Street driven applications will seldom require the shocks to be set with high Rebound forces. In the event somebody wishes his car to over steer, these high rebound forces on the rear will be explored.
     
  2. Sum1s2pid

    United States CA, USA
    PSN:Sum1s2pid

    And with Yokohama's involvement, will we finally have some tools to monitor tempuratures across a tire's width to take some of the guesswork out of adjusting camber and such?
     
  3. Motor City Hami

    United States Dearborn, MI
    PSN:MotorCtyHamilton

    I see more realistic looking suspension movements in the new Bathurst video. Encouraging sign. I hope that the shaker post rig that they include in the game come with somewhat understandable instructions.
     
  4. Imari

    Premium
    Australia Melbourne
    PSN:Neomone/GTP_Imari

    I'm not sure that suspension tuning will ever be terribly clear, because the reality is a very complex set of tradeoffs to get the right result. They can give basic instructions, but every modification affects so many aspects that there's either the danger of overwhelming people with information or leaving too much out.

    If what they can do is make the results of your modifications more easily visible, I think that will let people get into it and experiment and be able to tell what results their modifications are having.
     
  5. Johnnypenso

    Premium
    Canada Windsor,Ontario
    PSN:Johnnypenso

    If those are the instructions that come with the game, there's going to be a lot of trial and error and a lot of heated debating in the Tuning Forum...:crazy: I'm looking forward to working with it once it's figured out, but not looking forward to the potentially hours and hours and hours trying to figure out what things mean in plain english. :grumpy:
     
  6. Scaff

    Moderator
    United Kingdom Behind you
    PSN:ScaffUK

  7. VBR

    VBR
    Premium
    United Kingdom London England
    PSN:VirtualBornRacer

    Without PD adding proper bump maps to all tracks (preferably laser scanned ones), all this becomes essentially meaningless. The only time we currently encounter bumps is when we run over a kerb. For sure there are some tracks in GT5 that have good bump maps like Daytona Road & Nordschleife etc, but there are still far to many unrealistically dead flat tracks for my liking. Come on PD, it can't be that hard, can it?
     
  8. Johnnypenso

    Premium
    Canada Windsor,Ontario
    PSN:Johnnypenso

    I think PD reduced the effects and severity of bumps to make it easier to drive cars in the game for the casual user. We'll see what happens with Bathurst and Brands Hatch and how they feel compared to your GT5 tracks.

    Highly recommended. When I took up tuning in GT5, this is the first thing I read.:tup::tup:
     
  9. Zuel

    (Banned)
    United States Burke, Fairfax,
    PSN:GTP_STRIKER

    From what I've read on the KW site along with what I know it does seems to appear that suspension will be more comparable, along with the 7 pot system the tuning will be more finely tuned. I'm curious to see how the data will be displayed for the driver/tuner to understand.
     
  10. Scaff

    Moderator
    United Kingdom Behind you
    PSN:ScaffUK

    Quite true, but it doesn't make it all essentially meaningless, as suspension does of course work two ways, from the track surface (which without a bump map is limited as you say), but also from the load changes from the car which is an aside from the bump map.

    As such its limited, but not essentially meaningless.
     
  11. Motor City Hami

    United States Dearborn, MI
    PSN:MotorCtyHamilton

    Sorry Scarf, but that's not a GT5 tuning guide. That is GT4. There has been a lot more work done by the GT5 tuning community to break down GT5.
     
  12. Ridox2JZGTE

    Under your skin
    PSN:GTP_Orido

    This was done on a stock setup and CH, LVRacer feedback on the new tire and overall physics looks promising from tuning perspective :)
     
  13. Scaff

    Moderator
    United Kingdom Behind you
    PSN:ScaffUK

    If that is the case then GT5 doesn't follow the basic physics of vehicle dynamics (which GT4 did), as they would have to be operating counter to reality to make the guide invalid ?
     
  14. Motor City Hami

    United States Dearborn, MI
    PSN:MotorCtyHamilton

    That is a true statement. GT5 does not match real world tuning. I would say there are about ten of us who tested every setting and wrote guides to show what we found in GT5, yet no stickies for us. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but lots of people put in lots of time on GT5. I think I would take your advice on Forza, but for GT5 there are a few things that your guides just don't cover.
     
  15. VBR

    VBR
    Premium
    United Kingdom London England
    PSN:VirtualBornRacer

    Quite true as well. I am of course exaggerating in the vain hope that if I make enough noise PD will hear us folk who want laser scanned bump maps, hehe! :dunce:
     
  16. Scaff

    Moderator
    United Kingdom Behind you
    PSN:ScaffUK

    PM me some links to threads that contain GT5 tuning guides and I would be more than happy to look at making them 'sticky'.

    If the staff don't know we can't act.
     
  17. 05XR8

    PSN:caribdane

    Has anyone included real world set ups from Best Motoring videos and real race cars? Many cars with 20kg spring rates in the game, can match their real world counterparts. The videos even give you the final drive and type of tyre used. Even correct vehicle weight to replicate the car.

    I also tuned an RGT to these specs with the exact gear ratios, lsd, weight, hp and its a dream:
    http://www.carreracup.com.au/content/vehicle-specifications
     
  18. Johnnypenso

    Premium
    Canada Windsor,Ontario
    PSN:Johnnypenso

    You can start looking here if you're interested: http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=250201&highlight=replica
     
  19. tpark103

    United States Denver,Miami,Vegas
    PSN:terryparker15

    interesting stuff... It's worth looking into. I'd like to ask how your cars performance was with that setup?
     
  20. ITCC_Andrew

    (Banned)
    Canada Kitchener

    In fairness, what KW Suspension is saying makes sense. However, they're not native English speakers and - since neither am I - I can sort of understand the grammar they were trying to use.



    On another note, I'll be happy if they switch the front/rear suspension settings, and give us the tire temperatures with data on peak grip temperatures. Setups will affect tire temperatures. Tire pressures will affect temperatures. Tire compounds are designed to grip best at very specific ranges of temperatures.



    The rear suspension is the suspension you stiffen in real life to produce oversteer. Front suspension stiffer creates understeer. GT5 got that backwards, Scaff. For the first two seasons of ITCC, I went with the Forza-style (real life settings) tuning, like your guide (thanks, by the way) suggested, but it was counter-productive in GT5. :ouch: This season, I've perfected the tuning further by going against what I had previously believed.



    So, I'm hoping that they figure out the problem with that, and give us tire data. Please.
     
  21. Ridox2JZGTE

    Under your skin
    PSN:GTP_Orido

    I have been making replicas since I built them through hybriding, most of them are only available through hyrbiding - not cheating mind you :) I usually replicate the power, torque, power and torque curve, suspension settings and alignment, even down to LSD :) And most of them drive as they should. I have Top Secret R34 Fusion RR, R33 Hosaka Tuning Factory, Amuse Supra RZ, Boost Logic Supra, Jun Super Lemon RI R32, Super Lemon RII R33, Jun Hyper Lemon Evo VI, Jun Super GTR R34 and of course Wangan Midnight Replicas - Devil Z ( L28ETT, this car is made in real life too, handles like a real devil in GT5 ), AMS Alpha 9 and Omega, AMS EVO X 900X Time Attack, R31 House GTS-R, Gary Church RUF RGT TwinTurbo, Mad Mike GS300 4 Rotor Drift car, DMC Delorean 2JZ and Buick Grand National powered Delorean ( look up Youtube ), Electric '13 Delorean ( exact HP, gearing and battery system ) and so many more.
     
  22. ITCC_Andrew

    (Banned)
    Canada Kitchener

    Minus the comfort soft tires that make them extra challenging...
     
  23. Ridox2JZGTE

    Under your skin
    PSN:GTP_Orido

    Not really :p I did some races at SSR7 against people who made hybrids with RS tires, I drove my Devil Z 800HP and AMS Alpha 9 ( 1050HP - 1700+kg ) all on comfort soft, I managed to win and several podium finish. They usually use too much of the wall ;) On a twisty track, of course my grip level would not win any races against racing tire :)

    I exclusively drive my replicas on comfort tires to replicate the high performance street tires they have in real life :), Andrew, you should try my shared Forged Performance USA 370GT/G37 Twin Turbo 500WHP 1600+kg replica, it's a blast on comfort soft.
     
  24. Johnnypenso

    Premium
    Canada Windsor,Ontario
    PSN:Johnnypenso

    You must be the only one here that doesn't know about Rido's love of comfort tires..:lol: Comfort Softs to Rido are like Racing Softs to everyone else...:bowdown:
     
  25. Highlandor

    United Kingdom Staring at the sugar bowl
    PSN:GTP_Padded_Cell

    No where near true..

    As always with the screwed up (and constantly changed) world of GT5 tuning (physics) - what works is dependent on the car (drivetrain) and regulationss/variables it is being raced in - of which there is a huge diiversity.

    Since the start of the game, many cars work very well with stiff fr springs and soft rr - especially FR and FWD cars.

    What matters is the balance between springs, dampers and roll bars - especially since the mariokart physics were introduced about a year ago and massively reduced the impact custom LSDs had in setups.

    This balance is something which is general to everything, from 400pps historic cars to mLMP monsters - although, again, the mariokart physics of a year ago has meant the benefits of this balance are greatly reduced, where from the start of the game up to around 2.07, they were hiugely of benefit, especially in online racing an with tyre wear being a factor needing to be considered in the setup.

    Whether of not PD give us real life setups is irrelvent - the most important things are that PD give us one set of physics and stick to that for the entire game lifespan, then whatever they give us match the tuning guide (which on GT5 left them serious egg on face as the official tuning guide being sold didn't match the game).

    Secondly, this will mean that people will not walk away from the game because they are sick and tired on constantly having to re-tune their cars - which in GT5 was a huge problem for many who raced multi classes online. Whatever they give us - they stick to, so once we learn how to set cars up, they're setup for good. We don't have to retune (for some) hundreds of cars or entire garages.

    Also - many organisors will manually make cars equal in performance for series/classes - during GT5, changing the physics meant the organisors having to go back and check/re calculate the handicaps that made the cars equal, because the physics changes had an impact on this.

    Golden rule of all business - KISS - keep it simple.

    No point talking about real life when PD can't even get make believe right or constant. Whether it's real life or not - deosn't matter, stick to one thing and make sure what they preach is the same as what is practiced.
     
  26. Johnnypenso

    Premium
    Canada Windsor,Ontario
    PSN:Johnnypenso

    While I agree with most of your description of tuning in GT5, I believe the ultimate goal has to be car tuning in the game that matches real life tuning adjustments. Realism is the ultimate goal, with aids always lurking around to water down the realistic physics so the game is accessible to everyone. If the tuning is screwed up and backwards as it was in GT5 early on, patches will always be released to correct that sooner or later. They've got to get it right upon release, mimicking real life tuning effects, so that anything that gets patched later is in the form of fine tuning only, where minor adjustments may be needed to cars already tuned in my garage, not a complete overhaul of every car which drives most people nuts.
     
  27. Imari

    Premium
    Australia Melbourne
    PSN:Neomone/GTP_Imari

    Not true that GT5 got it backwards? Or not true that those effects are generally observed in reality? A car is a complex system and you can get wacky results if another part of the car is upsetting the balance, but as a generalised statement I'd have said stiffer rear= oversteer, stiffer front=understeer was about right.
     
  28. Tenacious D

    Online Now!
    Premium
    U S A
    PSN:Tetsumura / GTP_Tetsu

    I associate myself with remarks made by my friend Johnnypenso. (House of Commons etiquette, for those who don't watch BBC on occasion) :D

    No racing game is perfect, so if PD can occasionally make Gran Turismo "more perfect," I'm all for it.
     
  29. Highlandor

    United Kingdom Staring at the sugar bowl
    PSN:GTP_Padded_Cell

    Yes - agreed, tuning to be same as real life should be the ultimate goal, however, with GT5 having so many other issues and so many die hard GT fans who stuck with prologue for years, but walked away from the main game - there are other far greater issues PD need to sort out before worrying about setups on GT5 being same as real life real life setups.

    Not just issues with the game, there's issues with PD that need to be sorted too - where was their acceptance testing in GT5, it was non existent. How many updates to fix one thing, brought a whole new problem etc etc. If it wasn't their acceptance testing, then the people who signed off these updates need replacing - either way, that area desperately needs improving.

    Tuning/setups have never been, or are backwards on GT5 - in some area's/or with some parts/variables of a setup, the affects may have been reversed. Or with the odd setup on some cars it might work in reverse, but that doesn't mean the whole setup is.

    But generally - this "backwards" statement is not true i.e. front is rear etc etc etc.

    The GT5 setup physics works on balance/grip, traction incorperating other affects like weight transfer etc, with each area of the setup has a positive or negative affect on these. This will be offset by the regulations/rules that the setup is being used with - giving the affect of better or worse grip/balance etc etc.

    Look the huge amount of variation in cars, tyres, driving styles, regulations (tyre wear on/off) it means that those who know real life tuning will find occasional setups that seem backwards, but it isn't generally the case. Areas where this isn't as obvious would be when the amount of grip through the tyres is so great, it masks what is happening with the setup i.e. tyre wear off, high grip tyres on low pp cars etc etc..

    No one has tested all variables, it's simply too big a job (1000+ cars, 3 tyres, 3 compounds, 2 driving styles generally, different tyre wear rates, different tracks and different setups etc etc) - how many thousands of variables is that, and who's tried and logged all the data, no one.

    But - try tuning (without ballast to help) many examples that cover a wide range of these variables from 400pp classic to LMPs, on all tyre compounds for all driving styles (loose/planted) - for the most part 'patterns' will emerge, especially within drivetrains. General LSD, toe, camber, ride height settings can be used on (general to that drivetrain & tyre grip to power/weight ratio) spring, damper and roll bar settings (based on % of weight distribution) - this will give you a base to adapt to difference in other variables like driving styles, steering sensitivity settings, tyre wear, track etc etc.

    This has been working for the entire time GT5 has been out, and still works now..

    Then there's the difference between finding a number of setups for different people & cars that works, in a matter of seconds/minutes, or spending hours, days or weeks making an individual setup for one person/car perfect.. In this instance, using the weight distribution and general setting per drivetrain works fast and effectively, but is no match for a long time spent perfecting a tune for one person. Well, we could be here all day to be honest.

    Look at how much more intense iRacing feels, it makes GT5 feel dead, and sony and PD has got a long way to go before they get close to things like iRacing - which itself is constantly upgrading and improving, but still not near the pro sims used by real motorsport teams..

    The video game market is there for a reason and there are certain things that are reflected in all video games, unfortunately, real life is not one of them.
     
  30. 05XR8

    PSN:caribdane

    Excellent on any tyre from SH-RS. It is a 535pp car. I have raced in 550pp rooms and beat cars off the line and out of corners due to the RR and gearing. One thing to note, I set up all my cars, regardless of spring setting, with anti-roll and dampers bound/rebound at 1. I find that softness gives me the feeling of more grip.

    At Grand Valley, top speed is just about on the limiter before braking for turn 1. I'm not an ace driver but, I use a DS3 and have done a good job winning a few races in clean rooms against some M3 CSLs.

    I havent used the RGT in a while but, I get sucked in to driving online. I use the Spoon S2000 road car with this set up on SS tyres:



    It's my favourite at the moment.

    What's also interesting are the horsepower and spring rates some of these cars have. 25kgf spring rates are too high to replicate. We can't even tune the Civics to 16kgf(max is F15.5/R15) as in this video (view from 3:10):

     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013