Isn't PD more silent than usual?

  • Thread starter azidahaka
  • 112 comments
  • 7,190 views
This post I'm going to write probably doesn't belong here but anyway, there's a plethora of reasons why GT6 was never going to sell anywhere near as well as GT5:
GT5
- People have been craving a sequel to GT4 for just over 5 years
- The PS3 Slim is becoming much more affordable around the world (My 320GB PS3 cost roughly $430, (give or take $50, it was a gift) compared to $699 for a 40GB or $999 for a 60GB in 2007)
- They advertised this one substantially, tv spots, kiosks and everything!
- GT5: Prologue built up a lot of hype in the thrity-five months it had to convince people that GT5 would be like this but a zillion times bigger.
- People saw the picture below
2382880258_98617917e9_z.jpg

The idea of a game that looked like that was CRAZY in 2010.

GT6
- Released after the launch of the new consoles that were the talk of the town, PS3 is an also-ran now.
- Casual players who bought a PS3 with GT5 and have played maybe two other games since then aren't interested, they've already got a racing game.
- Much less marketing, though surprisingly I did see a few televised ads.
- There wasn't much to market. Besides things that haven't been added yet, the only new thing the ads were able to capitalise on was "Hey look, Bathurst!" (a good proposition for a game in Australia) You can't exactly have a commercial that says "You should buy GT6 because it's just like GT5 except loads much faster, has a better UI, Cone challenges, easier licenses, drop-dead-gorgeous starmaps, higher dynamic range in its lighting and some really neat physics"

All true. Still, going from ~7 million in the first year to ~3 is a big drop. While some reduction in sales numbers is to be expected, I don't think anyone expected this much.

Put it this way: the only previous Gran Turismo to have sold less than 10 million lifetime is GT2, and that got to 9.5 million. If GT6 really has only sold 3 million now, can you even see it getting to half that over it's whole lifetime? Especially considering the next generation thing, which I expect may significantly shorten the long tail of sales.

You're right in that it was likely never going to sell as well as GT5. But there's a difference between "not sell as well" and "worst selling GT ever by a significant margin".
 
I don't see anything in there that was missing from GT5?
Then you missed the fighter jets, pit lane pyrotechnics, cars driving on the Marktgasse, superior damage model and '09 NASCARs. I admit most of these are fairly minor, but still misleading. To make things worse the E3 2010 trailer showed a car speeding along the main runway of the TGTT, which I'm sure many people wished was possible. I really don't understand why they threw out the '09 NASCAR models, when they seem so desperate to make the car count as high as possible. One would think they'd be squished into GT6 somewhere.
You're right in that it was likely never going to sell as well as GT5. But there's a difference between "not sell as well" and "worst selling GT ever by a significant margin".
Indeed, but I don't think it will be "worst selling GT ever by a significant margin", after all, it's already beaten GT4: Prologue, GT Concept and Tourist Trophy! And is neck-and-neck with GT PSP! (facetious)
 
This post I'm going to write probably doesn't belong here but anyway, there's a plethora of reasons why GT6 was never going to sell anywhere near as well as GT5:
GT5
- People have been craving a sequel to GT4 for just over 5 years
- The PS3 Slim is becoming much more affordable around the world (My 320GB PS3 cost roughly $430, (give or take $50, it was a gift) compared to $699 for a 40GB or $999 for a 60GB in 2007)
- They advertised this one substantially, tv spots, kiosks and everything!
- GT5: Prologue built up a lot of hype in the thrity-five months it had to convince people that GT5 would be like this but a zillion times bigger.
- People saw the picture below
2382880258_98617917e9_z.jpg

The idea of a game that looked like that was CRAZY in 2010.

GT6
- Released after the launch of the new consoles that were the talk of the town, PS3 is an also-ran now.
- Casual players who bought a PS3 with GT5 and have played maybe two other games since then aren't interested, they've already got a racing game.
- Much less marketing, though surprisingly I did see a few televised ads.
- There wasn't much to market. Besides things that haven't been added yet, the only new thing the ads were able to capitalise on was "Hey look, Bathurst!" (a good proposition for a game in Australia) You can't exactly have a commercial that says "You should buy GT6 because it's just like GT5 except loads much faster, has a better UI, Cone challenges, easier licenses, drop-dead-gorgeous starmaps, higher dynamic range in its lighting and some really neat physics"
You have to remember several crucial things:
1. GT6 sells JUST after GT5 ceased production. This means that PD is treating GT6 as continuation of GT5. Evident also when they shut off the GT5 server.
2. GT5 was built from scratch. GT6 is heavily based in that. PD can also just update the existing GT5 sans the physics and graphics update.
3. All conclude to te fact that production cost is far much lower than GT5. Which also means that even when its sales is just 1/5 of GT5 I dont think PD will lost much aside from disappointed fans.
 
Gran Turismo 6 will be 5-7 million, at the end of life.

Pair numbers are still worse than odd numbers.
Added to that, the success of PS4 that surprised a lot of people .... For me and probably for PoDi, it will not be a failure.

Then we must not forget that there was no marketing for Gran Turismo 6. Sony has focused only on the PS4.
 
Not sure why anyone would try so hard to make it look like sales for any particular game are bad. Probably an indication of a sad life more than anything else.
 
Gran Turismo 6 will be 5-7 million, at the end of life.

Pair numbers are still worse than odd numbers.
Added to that, the success of PS4 that surprised a lot of people .... For me and probably for PoDi, it will not be a failure.

Each to their own. I'd say that when a game that sells 5 million and the next worst selling main series title is 9.5 million there's something pretty wrong. If I was Polyphony in that situation I'd call that a good reason to have a council of war on how we were going to turn it around.

Then we must not forget that there was no marketing for Gran Turismo 6. Sony has focused only on the PS4.

People need to stop pulling this one out, because it's just not true.

Maybe in your particular area of the world, wherever you are, but Sony very much did have an advertising budget for GT6 and used it. Maybe more of their advertising budget is going into running GT Academy these days so there isn't as much traditional advertising, but they certainly spent at least some on getting it's name out there.

3. All conclude to te fact that production cost is far much lower than GT5. Which also means that even when its sales is just 1/5 of GT5 I dont think PD will lost much aside from disappointed fans.

What are production costs for a game like GT?

-Wages and costs on buildings and assets are a certain amount per year. GT6 took 3 years to build instead of 5, so that cost could be 3/5ths of what it was for GT6.
-Licensing costs. Will likely be equal to or higher than GT5, given that it's all the same cars and tracks and then some more.
-Travel and data capture costs. Unknown. But they added about as many new cars, and a good chunk of new tracks and locations so let's call it about equal. Possibly it's higher because they're laser scanning now, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

There's probably more stuff that I'm missing, but those are probably the big ones. Yeah, GT6 cost less because they didn't have to pay as many wages during it's production, but a lot of the rest of the stuff is about the same because it's tied into the content of the game.

To offset this, it's entirely likely that PD is getting paid for things like the Red Bull championships, the inclusion of the Red Bull Ring, possibly even the VGT program. There's potential for "advertising" related income in GT6, which may offset their costs some (although GT5 likely had this to an extent as well).
 
Gran Turismo 6 will be 5-7 million, at the end of life.
Traditional game sales patterns disagree with you. GT5 for example had the vast majority of its sales in the first year. So unless GT hits 4 million or so in its first year, it's highly unlikely they'll even reach the bottom of your target range. And given they are on a dying console and the game is already heavily discounted, it likely won't have the legs that previous versions had.
 
To offset this, it's entirely likely that PD is getting paid for things like the Red Bull championships, the inclusion of the Red Bull Ring, possibly even the VGT program. There's potential for "advertising" related income in GT6, which may offset their costs some (although GT5 likely had this to an extent as well).

I do remember in the run-up to GT5's launch, there was an article (might have been the Top Gear site?) where someone from PD said they've been offered money by manufacturers to include certain cars and such, but have never accepted the cash. This could have changed now of course, or could be a different thing altogether from their Red Bull partnership.
 
Some random interviews appearing once in a while and updates arriving out of the blue or behind schedule. Nothing unusual right now.
 
Then you missed the fighter jets, pit lane pyrotechnics, cars driving on the Marktgasse, superior damage model and '09 NASCARs. I admit most of these are fairly minor, but still misleading. To make things worse the E3 2010 trailer showed a car speeding along the main runway of the TGTT, which I'm sure many people wished was possible. I really don't understand why they threw out the '09 NASCAR models, when they seem so desperate to make the car count as high as possible. One would think they'd be squished into GT6 somewhere.

Indeed, but I don't think it will be "worst selling GT ever by a significant margin", after all, it's already beaten GT4: Prologue, GT Concept and Tourist Trophy! And is neck-and-neck with GT PSP! (facetious)
Jets: In the game on opening trailer (did you honestly expect to fly jets in a driving simulator?)
Pits: In the game for opening of Jeff Gordon NASCAR stuff...
Marktgasse: (Marketplace?) Photomode. PD can't let you drive on there because there are people.
Damage: Damage was only shown on the WRC cars. WRC cars do have damage so what is the fuss?
'09 NASCARs: They were in there. I believe when the next gen cars came out they replaced them.
TGTT: They only showed the part we were given...

All but one can you do in game. The jet part of it is a joke... Car count, maybe, but I too don't understand why they are gone now..
 
Part of me hopes PD has begun to realize, just how disappointed and upset the fans & community are with their 'broken promises', and they're more-or-less shutting themselves in until it blows over, ala "leave brittany alone" and all.

Another part of me likes kittens and long walks on the beach, but that's besides the point :D
 
Jets: In the game on opening trailer (did you honestly expect to fly jets in a driving simulator?)
Pits: In the game for opening of Jeff Gordon NASCAR stuff...
Marktgasse: (Marketplace?) Photomode. PD can't let you drive on there because there are people.
Damage: Damage was only shown on the WRC cars. WRC cars do have damage so what is the fuss?
'09 NASCARs: They were in there. I believe when the next gen cars came out they replaced them.
TGTT: They only showed the part we were given...

All but one can you do in game. The jet part of it is a joke... Car count, maybe, but I too don't understand why they are gone now..

I believe @SnakeOfBacon just wanted to see the jets in-game, not that he wanted to fly them. You know, like GT4's Le Mans endurance.
The pit stuff being saved for a cut-scene was, I imagine, disappointing to many.
Driving around Photo Travel locations just seems like PD getting to showcase the car models. It bothers me far less than them modeling the garage the tuner cars show up in in the main GT5 menu, and then not letting us shoot in there (or any of the GT5P-exclusive locations, come to think of it). Though, it'd be incredibly easy to just remove people...
There was a more heavy-handed damage model prior to release. Personally, I'm actually glad it got toned down, because it looked about as realistic as the smeary-Standards one.
Removing the '09 Nascar vehicles made little to no sense. Especially from the typically numbers-happy PD view.
 
Not to mention Tony Stewart's 2010 NASCAR machine had a different livery pre-launch than what we have now. :indiff:
 
Jets: In the game on opening trailer (did you honestly expect to fly jets in a driving simulator?)

No, come on. You assuming thats what he meant is what's ridiculous here. We just expected there to be such pageantry and raceday flair for the big races in the game. Now we know for SURE that every trailer/intro/movie clip made by PD is likely deceptive at best, and heinously false under critical light. This is a bad thing.

Pits: In the game for opening of Jeff Gordon NASCAR stuff...

Again, some cool raceday atmosphere in a movie clip, followed by nada in the game. In GT6 we do finally get some sort of "pit walk" scene before the biggest 'races', so thats kinda cool.:rolleyes:



Marktgasse: Photomode. PD can't let you drive on there because there are people.

There are multiple intriguing locations shown during the GT5 demonstration that are not available in photomode. One is grassy with old stone walls, another is a really cool cave, etc..

Damage: Damage was only shown on the WRC cars. WRC cars do have damage so what is the fuss?

The damage shown on the WRC car, again in a 🤬 trailer, was jaw-dropping. Major destruction of metal and even doors falling off. Please point me to a video of actual gameplay with anything remotely close to that going on. Fuss over this point is valid, and you seem to be tripping over yourself to defend this wacky company right now.

'09 NASCARs: They were in there. I believe when the next gen cars came out they replaced them.

Yeah that makes plenty of sense, they should get rid of EVERY OLD car which has a more current model. Beautiful.


TGTT: They only showed the part we were given..

Absolutely false. Somebody post a link for this guy as I'm on my phone (or I will dig it up later). A prominent GT5 trailer showed a (lmp?) car zooming down the runway at dusk and its covered in lit landing lights. It may have actually been the red bull headquarters airstrip. Many many GT players desire a drag racing strip or high speed testing strip, and this clip caused MUCH fevered speculation about the tantalizing possibilities surrounding that airstrip.

Swagger, I'm not used to this behavior from you. Do you really believe that it's ok to deceive the players, fans, and potential customers with misleading video of interesting and cool features that never come to be?

I haven't even mentioned the parking garage, ghinza (sp?) district, updated seattle clip, the INCREDIBLE SOUNDS, and SSR11 map that they wet all of our appetites with. I find all of this deplorable and, to say something they never want to hear in japan, dishonorable.

👎


edit: Tree'd! Dangit SlipZtrEm!
 
Last edited:
I believe @SnakeOfBacon just wanted to see the jets in-game, not that he wanted to fly them. You know, like GT4's Le Mans endurance.
The pit stuff being saved for a cut-scene was, I imagine, disappointing to many.
Driving around Photo Travel locations just seems like PD getting to showcase the car models. It bothers me far less than them modeling the garage the tuner cars show up in in the main GT5 menu, and then not letting us shoot in there (or any of the GT5P-exclusive locations, come to think of it). Though, it'd be incredibly easy to just remove people...
There was a more heavy-handed damage model prior to release. Personally, I'm actually glad it got toned down, because it looked about as realistic as the smeary-Standards one.
Removing the '09 Nascar vehicles made little to no sense. Especially from the typically numbers-happy PD view.
No, come on. You assuming thats what he meant is what's ridiculous here. We just expected there to be such pageantry and raceday flair for the big races in the game. Now we know for SURE that every trailer/intro/movie clip made by PD is likely deceptive at best, and heinously false under critical light. This is a bad thing.



Again, some cool raceday atmosphere in a movie clip, followed by nada in the game. In GT6 we do finally get some sort of "pit walk" scene before the biggest 'races', so thats kinda cool.:rolleyes:





There are multiple intriguing locations shown during the GT5 demonstration that are not available in photomode. One is grassy with old stone walls, another is a really cool cave, etc..



The damage shown on the WRC car, again in a 🤬 trailer, was jaw-dropping. Major destruction of metal and even doors falling off. Please point me to a video of actual gameplay with anything remotely close to that going on. Fuss over this point is valid, and you seem to be tripping over yourself to defend this wacky company right now.



Yeah that makes plenty of sense, they should get rid of EVERY OLD car which has a more current model. Beautiful.




Absolutely false. Somebody post a link for this guy as I'm on my phone (or I will dig it up later). A prominent GT5 trailer showed a (lmp?) car zooming down the runway at dusk and its covered in lit landing lights. It may have actually been the red bull headquarters airstrip. Many many GT players desire a drag racing strip or high speed testing strip, and this clip caused MUCH fevered speculation about the tantalizing possibilities surrounding that airstrip.

Swagger, I'm not used to this behavior from you. Do you really believe that it's ok to deceive the players, fans, and potential customers with misleading video of interesting and cool features that never come to be?

I haven't even mentioned the parking garage, ghinza (sp?) district, updated seattle clip, the INCREDIBLE SOUNDS, and SSR11 map that they wet all of our appetites with. I find all of this deplorable and, to say something they never want to hear in japan, dishonorable.

👎


edit: Tree'd! Dangit SlipZtrEm!
I'll just explain to both of you what I was getting at with that post, as it seems a misconception has been made...

The things mentioned in that video originally posted are all found in the game at some point. Does that mean the player can manipulate such things, or interact with? Well yes and no for some, as I mentioned above, and common sense should kick in for others. I'll elaborate on them all a bit more in-depth this time.

Jets: They can be found in the opening trailer. Common sense would tell you that in a car racing game, you won't be flying jets. I'm not sure if you want a CM style pre-race show, depicting the track with some jet flyovers to satisfy the indulgence into the opening trailer. I don't understand how that is a big deal.

Pits: Maybe you guys were thinking we would get a helmet camera of the pit crew changing tires, but that would never happen as not all wheels in the game use 5 star/pattern wheel lugs and that is the pattern PD made. If you want fireworks while getting your wheels changed than you are in the wrong forum...

Marketgasse: Elaborating on the pre-home screen was probably intended. GT5 had many photomode locations, and some that were even added on. GT6 has nothing like the UI of 5, so I see no problem here. I do see a problem with how many photomode locations are left out, that's what annoys me.

Damage: Search for the thread on here about damage and you will see I put that thread to rest. Why didn't they add the damage models to all other cars? I don't know, I don't work for PD. Am I defending PD. Absolutely not other than the fact that damage is present in the game based on the initial complaint.

NASCAR: seems like we solved that. I would have like to kept them in but thinking of it now, I remember that there were many instances of the cars injuring people. There may be some sort of ongoing lawsuit with the car, there may not. All I remember is that was a horrible car IRL, and I do know that the car injured pit crew members.

TGTT: After looking through countless trailers and find the only video with the R10 and whatever else was racing beside it, I have no idea why there is even an issue of this. It's not even at TGTT, we can't drive on the Red Bull photomode area, so why bother (Plus the trailer was from 2009 E3).

If we think that everything we see will be in the game than that is ridiculous. Look at trailers from 2005 and onwards. Tell me that everything you see would have been in the game (if this was post release of GT5). It took five years, five, from that E3 trailer till release. Don't you think that some of those were only to hold captive the interests of previous players until release?

What is the difference between an advertisement for a truck, or any vehicle on a commercial in which they give details saying, "Best in class payload, towing, mileage, cabin blah blah blah, blah, blah...." The truck itself you want won't have all these in one. They are all different trucks with stats from each one all detailed in a 30 second advert to lure you in to think they are the best of the rest. With these GT5 adds, it is the same thing. They previewed the game and showed what is in it. They did not say whether or not it will be available to play, interact, or modify as they then could be in a bit of a legal issue with false advertisement.

My current issue with GT is what they have on the box of GT6. There are still features I have yet to receive which in words on the box should mean it is on the disc. That is what annoys me. Not a three minute video in which NOTHING WAS PROMISED...

EDIT: If you also recall from the GT5 homescreen, there was a solid white city with cars in the game driving on highway overpasses.... Did you think PD would release a solid white track to drive on?...... C'mon..
 
Fair points from your pov, and a decent post. I must disagree on a serious point, though.

Showing us racecars blasting side by side down an airstrip/dragstrip-looking surface is as good as telling us it's part of the game. Also, if we set the standard of marketing honesty by way of american truck commercials then we are all in a world of trouble.

This is not about outright, direct, vocalized promises, but it is very much about going to work on your mind with imagery. ...and fake, dubbed-in engine sounds that could make a grown man weep.

** and here we go! As I searched for a specific trailer in which I recalled a red racing GT-R blast by the camera with the most furious, delicious sound ripping through the nurburg trees, I find the exact one you speak of. And holy SMOKES is it intense. On track racing action and sounds from heaven:



We cannot measure the distance between this advertisement, and the truth of gt5 and 6..
 
Fair points from your pov, and a decent post. I must disagree on a serious point, though.

Showing us racecars blasting side by side down an airstrip/dragstrip-looking surface is as good as telling us it's part of the game. Also, if we set the standard of marketing honesty by way of american truck commercials then we are all in a world of trouble.

This is not about outright, direct, vocalized promises, but it is very much about going to work on your mind with imagery. ...and fake, dubbed-in engine sounds that could make a grown man weep.

** and here we go! As I searched for a specific trailer in which I recalled a red racing GT-R blast by the camera with the most furious, delicious sound ripping through the nurburg trees, I find the exact one you speak of. And holy SMOKES is it intense. On track racing action and sounds from heaven:



We cannot measure the distance between this advertisement, and the truth of gt5 and 6..

whoops... copied that video but I forgot to post the link..:banghead:

Anyways, I understand your POV, but the game was still a year from release, so it had everything for it. GT5 was the first GT game in which PD could utilize DLC, and maybe they expected too much of themselves and scrapped some ideas which would not be cost effective for labor (ohh, wow, poking at keys is labor eh?)

And the whole car ad could havve been for anyone who nonchalantly (I just made that up... I think) makes an advert targeting a specific competitor, or outright lies to your face (i.e.: Lexus [Who says you buy an Audi for 2wd, and calls it "exhilirating"... they are the godfathers of Quattro] /end rant).

But anyways, I expect far less from PD on a truth stand point. Not much has come from my expectations so whatever they say I will always believe 1/5 of it. Until the realize they have lost the trust of many of their customers, I refuse to believe into their nonsense...
 
My theory with PD replacing 2009 NASCAR machines with 2010 ones is that NASCAR is involved with it; they may have been asked PD to use 2010 cars instead when they see the game would be released in November that year. Or perhaps PD deciding that the 2009 NASCARs were outdated. ;)
 
They can afford to be a little quiet now that PCars has been delayed till March, no need to rush out an update to compete with it, we probably won't get anything till December 6th now.
 
Back