PD vs Hackers "Notice of Account Ban Measures"

[killerjimbag]

I have tried several times to answer this, to me the questions in response are always the same. We can not exhaust all the possibilities in our lifetime. Most my friends are engineers, I usually just have to say the equation is exponential and I am done explaining, this makes it hard to explain things to others sometimes.

So you either do not understand exponential mathematics or you are just trying to give me a hard time.

HP, there already is a limit to HP as you describe, it's 1,479, turn it on. I hope that will be that last time that gets asked.

PD will block some of the current things with tests like you suggest, but it is impossible to block them all. Even if they could the test can simply be bypassed.

I hope they continue banning those that ruin other peoples lobbies, but at the same time wish people were not so quick to report others for doing things that don't affect them whatsoever.

I understand your point. But your last comment, it's like the person on their cell phone at the lights in their car. It doesn't affect me now,but it could affect the family of 4 down the road in 5 minutes.

 

[OdeFinn]

@FarSideX, it's not so hard to make game "hybrid" proof, at least 99% of them, meaning at not all have possibilities to put spoofer between PS3 and PSN server, and it's not impossible to do few improvements to code for busting spoofers if used.
Everything can be hacked, but how long it takes is the key, and if PD was clever enough they improve/change code bit by bit constantly to stay ahead bit and keep you busy.
I know several ways what can be implemented for keeping it clean, at least dropping out OFW hybriders, CFW hybriders can be dropped out if Sony just want put some effort to that, probably they just let this generation decay on its own.

One question for you: Why? What is your interest to do this?

I can remember when we eagerly search for glory by hacking different operators, companies, telephone centers, and all of this just to get our group to stay on top of 0day lists, pbx'ing, bboxing, cc'ing as generating lists and trading them, just for name of group, do you just want to show what you can do for trying to get some job as security consultant?
I can bet at you have some roots on same part of IT early stages, times when 2600/2400 made differences

 

[FarSideX]

We can't exhaust all of the unrealistic possibilities. You do not need a hash for each individual gear ratio. You can use coding for an upper and lower bound. Instead of thousands of possibilities per gear, you now have two.

Please do not confuse me with those that suggested hash codes. I am/was stating that it is not a possibility to do so. You are preaching to the choir.

You are also trying to invalidate my answer by changing the question which was "why can't they make a hash table for each legit car to compare against it"? Upper and lower limits don't work with hash tables.

If you do test the boundaries like you said it still does not solve the problem. You forget I only used gears as an example, I discarded all the other 500 to 1000 variables affecting each car. Each variable test increases the required stored data for the question exponentially.

Also the part of my post you bolded was referring to each post stating one more test each time.

I understand your point. But your last comment, it's like the person on their cell phone at the lights in their car. It doesn't affect me now,but it could affect the family of 4 down the road in 5 minutes.

Sure but how does the guy who puts a little wider tyres on and changes the sound of his engine really affect you or anyone down the road? Or if you enter a lobby called "Hacked Car Lobby", is it right to report those guys who are keeping to themselves? If so why should they keep to themselves in the future if it doesn't matter to those doing the reporting?

 

[Imari]

I understand your point. But your last comment, it's like the person on their cell phone at the lights in their car. It doesn't affect me now,but it could affect the family of 4 down the road in 5 minutes.

If you thought that hacking cars was the same as murdering people, sure.

 

[killerjimbag]

If you thought that hacking cars was the same as murdering people, sure.

Little far fetched on the murder plot.

Please do not confuse me with those that suggested hash codes. I am/was stating that it is not a possibility to do so. You are preaching to the choir.

You are also trying to invalidate my answer by changing the question which was "why can't they make a hash table for each legit car to compare against it"? Upper and lower limits don't work with hash tables.

If you do test the boundaries like you said it still does not solve the problem. You forget I only used gears as an example, I discarded all the other 500 to 1000 variables affecting each car. Each variable test increases the required stored data for the question exponentially.

Also the part of my post you bolded was referring to each post stating one more test each time.



Sure but how does the guy who puts a little wider tyres on and changes the sound of his engine really affect you or anyone down the road? Or if you enter a lobby called "Hacked Car Lobby", is it right to report those guys who are keeping to themselves? If so why should they keep to themselves in the future if it doesn't matter to those doing the reporting?

Unfortunately it is not wider tires and sounds being modded. I

 

[jimipitbull]

Little far fetched on the murder plot.

Many years ago, there was a racing game in the arcade called TurboTastic, whose main racer loved to win, and grew egotistical about it. When the arcade got a new racing game called RoadBlasters, Turbo abandoned his game, and entered into RoadBlasters, wrecking it.

Because of this, both games were unplugged, and presumably, Turbo died when he was unable to return to his game.

 

[nasanu]

I wouldn't use hashs, you are the one that suggested it. I was just answering your post as to why they don't.

If all you can say is test something else then my point has been completely missed. It doesn't matter what they test, the math is is same and the end result is the same.

Gran Turismo is called a driving simulator for a reason. The software is build like a simulator rather than a game. The cars are made up in far more detail than the tuning section of the game alludes to. This could be why you mistakenly think there are just a few parts.

One thing is for sure, you're no programmer.

Look, when I say few parts, I mean few parts for a program or database. It means not hundreds of thousands or millions. And the very reason you use a hash is to avoid large calculations. A hash is a long list of stuff reduced to a single number. If anything in that list changes the final number changes. It is perfect for checking car specs.

If you think there is a problem with it then I'd like to hear your explanation. What you have said so far is not valid and frankly does not make sense.

 

[Griffith500]

One thing is for sure, you're no programmer.

Look, when I say few parts, I mean few parts for a program or database. It means not hundreds of thousands or millions. And the very reason you use a hash is to avoid large calculations. A hash is a long list of stuff reduced to a single number. If anything in that list changes the final number changes. It is perfect for checking car specs.

If you think there is a problem with it then I'd like to hear your explanation. What you have said so far is not valid and frankly does not make sense.

The only reason to use a hash is to limit data transfer: one number instead of many. However, the size of the server-side hash tables required to cover the range of possibilities in GT6 is intractable for this particular issue, as has been explained many times. Computing a hash is not necessarily trivially quick, either, especially given the encryption.

So you need to transfer more information, but again that's potentially quite a lot depending on the range of exploits you want to check for (it's not just limited to those values you can adjust in-game) - a byte per piece of car information would be a 1kb upload per check, although it should ideally be compressed. It's unknown what extra load that would put on the game servers, but anyone inspecting the network traffic the game relies on might have an idea of the relative increase it would represent.

As a programmer, what's your reckoning of the current bandwidth requirements of the client-server checks?

 

[OdeFinn]

@nasanu, wild guess at having some clue of @FarSideX capabilities, hacking from early 80's and some years mental training on around millenium, I'm just wondering why using his skills on GT6

 

[GTPVenomZombie]

Its simple. If you`re not banned yet still have hacked cars, just delete them. No worries.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I usually just have to say the equation is exponential and I am done explaining, this makes it hard to explain things to others sometimes.

The biggest factor in determining how long or how hard it would be is the way the file is structured. I can't be specific because I do not know that info and really have no desire to look into it.

I am a software designer and have did a bit of game programming in the past and I can assure you that given the correct file structure a test that could detect any modification beyond what is allowed in game would not take anywhere near a lifetime, not even the lifetime of a fly. more like a few seconds up to possibly a minute.

Again the file structure is the key as is how the file is used by the system. Assuming a good design that considered this type of problem in advance the test would be pretty fast and it would not have to do a complete test on all the cars. Of course no matter what is done there is always a possibility of hacking. From a programming POV you just have to make it difficult to do and then address hacks as they arise.

I believe having a single hacked car in your garage is valid grounds for not allowing your profile to play online at all. Of course ideally if you get rid of the hacked cars you should be allowed online again but if not then so be it.

There really is no place for using hacked cars online and no excuse for it

 

[Griffith500]

The biggest factor in determining how long or how hard it would be is the way the file is structured. I can't be specific because I do not know that info and really have no desire to look into it.

I am a software designer and have did a bit of game programming in the past and I can assure you that given the correct file structure a test that could detect any modification beyond what is allowed in game would not take anywhere near a lifetime, not even the lifetime of a fly. more like a few seconds up to possibly a minute.

Again the file structure is the key as is how the file is used by the system. Assuming a good design that considered this type of problem in advance the test would be pretty fast and it would not have to do a complete test on all the cars. Of course no matter what is done there is always a possibility of hacking. From a programming POV you just have to make it difficult to do and then address hacks as they arise.

I believe having a single hacked car in your garage is valid grounds for not allowing your profile to play online at all. Of course ideally if you get rid of the hacked cars you should be allowed online again but if not then so be it.

There really is no place for using hacked cars online and no excuse for it

For obvious reasons, those checks can't be performed on the client, though, which is a significant difference.

Arguably, PD did make it hard to do; that complete balls up regarding Sony's PS3 filesystem encryption, though, probably puts them at a total disadvantage immediately. Then, arguably, they are addressing hacks as they arise.

The key is when someone's play experience is affected. If that person then reports, and the subsequent "investigation" reveals a contravention of the game's built-in controls, then ban.

The trick, of course, is precisely how to catch the "hack" at the point of origin, as it happens. It's not trivial, and any "solution" will not be fool-proof, not least due to the control a real hacker can have over the network traffic. What's important is stopping the bulk of those using cookie-cutter "hacks" having fun at others' expense. That's mostly in the hackers' control.

 

[Imari]

Little far fetched on the murder plot.

I'm not the one comparing hacking cars to talking on one's phone while driving. The worst case scenario in one is fiery death. The worst case scenario in the other is someone has their feels hurt.

 

[Tornado]

I'm not the one comparing hacking cars to talking on one's phone while driving. The worst case scenario in one is fiery death. The worst case scenario in the other is someone has their feels hurt.

But making hybrids has the same thought processes as rape, remember.

 

[PepeMickey]

Umm. Forza had all the stuff that modders care about in a game, which is making silly modifications to their cars just for showing off and the game still got hacked.

It doesn't matter how perfect a game is, people will hack it because they have to much time in their hands and not enough social interaction to understand that there are other people out there.

 

[killerjimbag]

I'm not the one comparing hacking cars to talking on one's phone while driving. The worst case scenario in one is fiery death. The worst case scenario in the other is someone has their feels hurt.

It doesn't hurt my feelings, the only ones that seem upset are the ones that don't play by the rules.

 

[CSLACR]

I'm not the one comparing hacking cars to talking on one's phone while driving. The worst case scenario in one is fiery death. The worst case scenario in the other is someone has their feels hurt.

And why does the potential outcome change the reference?
Let's say the worst that driver on their cellphone texting could do is dent your door and break your wheel, leaving you needing a tow? Does that change the point? Or does it just take away your "reason" for dismissing it?

I hate it when people try to shoot down valid analogy's just because it's a "more or less serious issue". The point is the same.
By the way, the "victim" would be Sony/PD along with players. The harder it is for people to enjoy a game online, the less they play, and the less they play, the less they buy.

No, I'm not going to argue about how much money it cost anybody or anything else, the end argument is that it's breaking the rules, and everyone posting here knows the potential consequences. It's not my problem, and I don't care.

 

[Tornado]

And why does the potential outcome change the reference?

Because it makes the analogy meaningless since its entire point is to compare consequences. Just like with the "hacking cars comes from the same mindset as rape" one parroted a few months ago.

 

[CSLACR]

Because it makes the analogy meaningless.

Only if your mind cannot grasp the meaning of the analogy.


That driver is breaking the rules, and while not causing problems now, it could cause problems for someone down the road.
That driver is breaking the rules, and while not causing problems now, it could cause problems for someone down the road.

Mind-blowing, ain't?

 

[Tornado]

Not really, no. When you distill the point down to that level it becomes even more meaningless than when it was used to try to force a moral issue.

 

[killerjimbag]

Because it makes the analogy meaningless since its entire point is to compare consequences. Just like with the "hacking cars comes from the same mindset as rape" one parroted a few months ago.

To compare it to rape is asinine. Look at the posts. I'm not the one getting banned. I hope they ban the console. Then you can all go to the Forza forum.

 

[OdeFinn]

The one-make cars (loaned cars) have their own database table that are separate from the dealership car tables called GENERIC_CAR. There is no cross over. For a hack to affect one make races it would have to be targeted directly towards that part of the game. The code is also separated. As far as I can tell the specs come from the host. So even if someone hacked the generic car list everyone in the lobby would get the hacked car.

So, those are safe. This applies to on line time trials where there is no choice of car.

So there is PD's easiest way to get clean races and race series, car data uploaded to server, it validates it and returns back to client, if you don't do spoofer available to everyone what changes all again on client end.

Sad at this game is only way to enjoy league races for many people, and your tool (okey not alone yours, there are now others too) is killing clean approach to those, no-one can trust at opponent is playing fair.

I know at hacking is a passion to you, like a drug what have hooked you, but do you have any good ideas how GT6 community can arrange fair league races using tuning allowed cars?

Hybrids may be on their own, I just want there to be a clean place where players can enjoy hybrid free races, do you think at this is too much asked, or even possible to arrange?

 

[Tornado]

To compare it to rape is asinine.

But comparing it to manslaughter isn't?

Look at the posts. I'm not the one getting banned. I hope they ban the console. Then you can all go to the Forza forum.

That certainly doesn't sound like the thing to say after going out of you way to state how not upset you are.

 

[killerjimbag]

But comparing it to manslaughter isn't?



That certainly doesn't sound like the thing to say after going out of you way to state how not upset you are.

Did I say the family of 4 was hurt or killed.Read before posting. I know your smarter than that to misquote me.

 

[Tornado]

So the family of four in your comparison had nothing of real consequence happen to them as a result of the actions of the driver.


Now the analogy makes sense.

 

[CSLACR]

So the family of four in your comparison had nothing of real consequence happen to them as a result of the actions of the driver.


Now the analogy makes sense.

Ok, so would you care to explain how one can set up a league race with tuning and ensure nobody's got a hacked car?
Or doesn't it count, if it doesn't affect you personally?

Oh, that's right, we're all in make-believe land where hackers are good, honest, decent, rule-abiding-not cheaters. Right? It's all about the good honest hackers that are just having fun, because none of them would ever legitimately cheat, because hackers never cheat at anything.
Of course, and that pony is real too.

 

[Tornado]

Ok, so would you care to explain how one can set up a league race with tuning and ensure nobody's got a hacked car?

That depends. Johnnypenso has several times in the past presented solutions to that exact problem and challenged members to explain how they wouldn't work; and it wasn't until this thread with FarSideX's posts that there has been any evidence that a truly dedicated hacker could circumvent any attempt to be kept out of rooms. Even with his posts taken into account it sounds like the way around Johnny's ideas are impractical to actually put into effect; but I suppose that is why those two have been debating the topic fairly amicably rather than comparing hybriding to driving dangerously in real life because it "may effect someone eventually", then blatantly backtracking on obvious implication of that analogy to the point of making the already overly extreme comparison meaningless.

Or doesn't it count, if it doesn't affect you personally?

It doesn't effect me personally. Not only did I never play GT6 online, but I don't even own the game anymore. I haven't had CFW on my PS3, which seems to be required for GT6 hybriding, for nearly 3 years. I've gone entirely back to playing GT5 and Forza 4 since GT6 came out. I have no horse (so to speak) in this race whatsoever, and never did.


The relevance being?

Oh, that's right, we're all in make-believe land where hackers are good, honest, decent, rule-abiding-not cheaters. Right? It's all about the good honest hackers that are just having fun, because none of them would ever legitimately cheat, because hackers never cheat at anything.

I love how many delicious words you're hand feeding me based on a response I made that was nothing more than "your analogy is extreme to the point of uselessness."


Assumptions and asses and whatnot.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

For obvious reasons, those checks can't be performed on the client, though, which is a significant difference.

And why could it not be done on the client? Data files could be validated on the client and then a simple memory flag set which prevents access to online features. I see no reason why this could not be done and no reason why it would not be rather fast given the right file structure and implementation.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sad at this game is only way to enjoy league races for many people, and your tool (okey not alone yours, there are now others too) is killing clean approach to those, no-one can trust at opponent is playing fair.

I do go online every couple of days for a few races and I've never seen a hybrid. Correction, I've never lost to someone and thought it was a hybrid. Even in GT5 where it was much easier (plus trading) I still never saw a hybrid unless it was in my own lounge with a friend or when I started opening lobbies entitled "Bring Your Hybrids". Even then I never saw any silly, overpowered hybrids, just engine swaps, chassis swaps and stuff like that.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should allow GT6 to turn into the wild west, if at all possible it should be prevented from ever occurring online, but my point is I don't think it's quite as widespread in circuit racing rooms as people like to believe. My guess is it's mostly confined to free-for-all type rooms and drag racing rooms and private lobbies of course. It's not something, at this point anyway, that even crosses my mind when I go online to race.

 

[PepeMickey]

Er... I don't have GT6 but it was horrible in GT5, I'm not the kind of player who goes online with the same group of friends every time, I always went for different lobby types and with completely random people and everything from drifting to drag racing was completely ruined by it. It was almost insulting how obvious some people were about it.

I'm not gonna lie, I reported hundreds of people back then, any modded car I saw I would just report them because it was getting out of hand. Out of 3 completely random lobbies, 1 had modded cars and no, they weren't there to show-off their creations, they were just being completely stupid.

Now of course, people can be stupid with any car but with this whole movement, more and more stupid people come to play because modders aren't smart enough to maintain a low profile, they're always showing off, talking about it and that brings unwanted people to it.

I wonder if hybriding is really a way to make the individual experience better or it's just a way to be different for the sake of being different no matter what.