Porsche, RUF and GT5 - trying to figure out the legal situation

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5' started by the Interceptor, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. the Interceptor

    Premium
    Germany Germany
    PSN:theInterceptor77

    As a follow-up to this thread and in agreement with the moderation (thanks Touring Mars!), I'd like to shed some light onto the delicate situation Porsche, RUF and other car manufacturers have with Gran Turismo 5 and Polyphony Digital.

    The purpose of this thread is to find out whether the legal situation enables Polyphony Digital to include more manufacturers like RUF in Gran Turismo. If that were the case, PD could include much more Porsche-like vehicles in future Gran Turismos and thus even out the dent the absence of Porsche leaves.

    In the aforementioned thread, people claimed that RUF is the only manufacturer who can legally produce their cars as a RUF and thus circumvent the lack of a Porsche license for Gran Turismo 5. Because of that, I have contacted several manufacturers including RUF to get solid first hand information.

    RUF already responded, but didn't give me any vital information. I am currently waiting for their second response. I will add the responses to this thread when I receive them. Also, I will contact some more tuners with the rank of a manufacturer which also produce cars based on Porsche parts or Porsche cars or have a status similar to RUF.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    RUF: *initial response below, waiting for second, more detailed response*
    Dear Mr. XXXXXX,

    the RUF Automobile GmbH is an internationally accredited car manufacturer and a member of the VDA (editorial note: German interest group of the German automobile industry). Other car companies such as Alpina, Brabus, Irmscher and Wiesmann also have the rank of a manufacturer. We don't know the situation for tuner companies.

    Best regards
    Norbert GXXXXXXX
    Sales / Marketing


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Alpina:

    Dear Mr. XXXXXX

    Thank your for your e-mail.

    Every BMW Alpina has a unique Alpina VIN, since Alpina, as a manufacturer, has to allocate these.

    BMW Alpina cars are built at the BMW plant with our components and get their VIN at Alpina. The BMW VIN is existent in the car, but gets crossed out visibly.

    With best regards
    Axel RXXXXXX

    Head of Production
    Head of Customer Service


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Brabus: *no response yet*

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Irmscher: *no response yet*

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Gemballa: *no response yet*

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Edo Competition:
    Dear Mr. XXXXXX,

    we would like to give you a short response regarding your question about VIN numbers:

    We produce a limited amount of vehicles we equip with VINs in a batch production. This depends on the complexity of the modifications we make to the individual car. Most of the cars keep the original VIN they were given by their manufacturer, such as Porsche.

    We hope to have helped you with this information.

    Best regards
    Ruth HXXXXXXX

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Techart:
    Dear Mr. XXXXXX,

    Techart does not manufacture cars, but rather a range of individualization packages for Porsche cars. These cars remain to be Porsches after the modification. The individual changes is noted in the car's papers without any change to the brand or the VIN.

    Best regards
    Juergen RXXXXXXXX
    Executive Assistant

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mansory: *no response yet*

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Things we know:

    • Electronic Arts has an exclusive Porsche license. They give out sub-licenses to companies like Turn10 (creators of Forza Motorsport) for money. PD was not able to obtain a sub-license for GT5, the reason is unknown. Source

    • RUF Automobile often is referred to as a tuner, which they also are. However, they have the status of a manufacturer and get unmarked bodies and chassis from Porsche to build their own cars, which seems to be a novelty. This means that even when their cars look like Porsches, by law they are RUFs and thus are legally in Gran Turismo. Source

    • The manufacturer of a vehicle is coded in its VIN (vehicle identification number), which is to be found on the identification plate of its chassis. The important information is whether RUF is the only manufacturer who puts their own VINs into their cars, or whether other tuners with the rank of a manufacturer are allowed to do the same thing. This is important because by law, the VIN identifies a manufacturer, thus one can argue that a car is not a Porsche, even if it contains Porsche parts and/or looks like a Porsche, but has a different VIN. The VIN is internationally accepted and identifies the manufacturer of a vehicle on a worldwide basis

    • I tried to contact EA through various channels, but I never got any specific answer regarding the licensing. I was either ignored or directed from one spokesperson to the other.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Conclusion:

    Cars which wear the VIN of a manufacturer different than Porsche legally are not Porsche cars. Thus, any of the manufacturers or tuners with the rank of a manufacturer should be legal to be featured in Gran Turismo (given the manufacturer is not bound elsewhere by another contract). The following list presents that information based on the above responses:

    RUF: YES (in GT already)
    Alpina: YES
    Brabus: *unknown*
    Irmscher: *unknown*
    Gemballa: *unknown*
    Edo Competition: YES (for few models)
    Techart: NO
    Mansory: *unknown*

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Important note:
    This is not meant as another Porsche, RUF or GT5 bashing thread. Therefore, I kindly ask you to remain polite even if you don't share the views of others, and to stay on topic. Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
  2. Maas

    Holland

    Great fo you to research this, will be following this!
     
  3. DaxCobra

    England Norwich,Norfolk
    PSN:GTP_DaxCobra

    same.
     
  4. The reason is Shift.
     
  5. freedomweasel

    USA
    PSN:FreedomWeasel

    [citation needed]
     
  6. BlueSky

    USA - East Coast

    Thank you for finally putting a definitive Porsche/RUF thread together :tup:. Hopefully there won't be a need for others to continue opening new threads and asking the same questions over and over again. This is very helpful.

    I think it would be beneficial for this thread to be stickied.
     
  7. the.true.samiam

    Shelburne, Ontario, Canad
    PSN:the_true_samiam

  8. Yev

    Yev
    (Banned)

    Great work.
     
  9. Like I said before getting licences for 1000 cars and some which dating back to 1950 is a hell lot of work. GT 5 Already has legal issues with one of the town in Italy I believe?

    It is not an easy task to reserve the rights. Some of my friends had to work with porsche marketing department and those guys are greedy XXXXs.

    Some dbag on this forum tried to argue with me, about this very topic why NFS can afford so many cars like porsche so fast and GT5 cant. There is your answer.

    Silly children.
     
  10. freedomweasel

    USA
    PSN:FreedomWeasel

    I didn't see an answer. I saw speculation and second hand vaguely related information followed by a pointless insult. :tup:
     
  11. BlueSky

    USA - East Coast

    This thread would be much more useful if others would stop speculating and just stick with the facts. If you have FACTS and citations to back them up, post them. Otherwise it will become like many other threads, full of opinions, speculation, insults and no actual useful information.

    Again, thank you to the original poster for sharing some useful information and for starting what could be a very informative and useful thread.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  12. cuco33

    NJ
    PSN:cuco33

    Nice work. I'm certainly looking for a reason why the biggest racing franchise doesn't even have one of the most successful brands in motorsports.
     
  13. II-zOoLoGy-II

    (Banned)
    United States F YOU

    Thanks for the info. You should include more tuners and manufacturers! Sticky this?
     
  14. TurboProp

    United States South Carolina
    PSN:TurboProp

    Great info, Thanks!
     
  15. Akwaaba

    United Kingdom London
    PSN:Waizon

    I'm also interested to hear the situation regarding manufacturers that are no longer in business (or even changed hands).

    I'd love to see more cars from MG, Triumph, Rover and even Austin Morris. Then whatabout Bugatti (the EB110 era and the Type 35 era). As for manaufacturers who have changed hands, I was thinking of Jaguar and Chrysler (Europe) and the Lotus Sunbeam in particular.

    Looks like an interesting thread, please sticky
     
  16. Mr. S

    Premium
    France Paris

    Some companies want to keep their "exclusivity" - unlike Abt AUDI for example, they are located near my hometown and give out their logos (to install them on your car or whatever you want to do with it) for like 10 Euros or so.

    I really want to know the answer from both Gemballa and Brabus, can't wait for it. :D
     
  17. the Interceptor

    Premium
    Germany Germany
    PSN:theInterceptor77

    I just sent e-mails to Gemballa, Edo Competition, Techart and Mansory. I have received no other responses as of yet.

    If there are more manufacturers you deem worth of contacting, please let me know via PM or in this thread. Thank you!
     
  18. Sohvakettu

    Finland Finland
    PSN:Sohvakettu

    People here seem to forget that Porsche is more than just their favourite car manufacturer. They do a lot of consulting work for other major manufacturers and patents and intellectual property royalties form a huge part of their profits. It's no surprise that they could be a hard customer when trying to get rights for their cars.
     
  19. pLiDeX

    Montevideo, Uruguay
    PSN:pLiDeX_uy

    great job, thank you

    it seems that we'll never get Porsches in GT5 :(
     
  20. Limelight788

    Texas, USA
    PSN:Limelight788

    Glad to see that we gain more specific reasons for the lack of Porsche in Gran Turismo 5. Here's to hoping they come by next time.
     
  21. kazuyam

    PSN:kazuyam

    Do you really think you can change something with this thread, except to inform? It's an honorable move, yes indeed, but those big bosses who decide will never read this thread at about some private users. That's how Internet works.
    Sure, PD knows that Porsche would have been a nice add on, but I really think that Kaz himself is not as keen on having Porsches in his game then let's say his own new real life car.

    For example, when he bought a Ford GT, suddenly, this car became the new spearhead of GT4, later on, he bought a specific Mercedes... a digital version is now on every box art. Let's hope he will buy a Porsche soon, no joke!
    And also, the reason why there are so many Skylines ingame, also no joke, he told this in the Apex book for GT3, his father owned a Skyline and he loved this car as a child. Later on he owned a GTR Skyline.

    By the way, there is a rumor that PD once were trying to use licenced Porsche products in their games. Porsche was told and since then they boycott PD.
    This is similar to what happened with the Lambo license. PD used the Nomad Diablo in the JP version of GT3, without Lambo license and this led to the cirmumstance that GT3 and GT4 were not allowed to have any Lambos in the EU at all. At that time, another company was also holding their license which was also a reason why the Nomad had to be removed from the EU version of GT3 and 4. They just didn't asked anybody.
     
  22. porkchop87

    PSN:porkchop_7

    PD needs to just swallow their pride and pay for a sub-license. I highly doubt it is EA who refuses to give one to PD as rumored around here... money talks BS walks... EA doesn't care who they sell their licenses to, if you know anything about EA or even EA Sports you'll know it's money first when it comes to their company.

    It's far more likely that PD refuses to pay EA to have Porsche in their game simply because of what kind of bizarre design decisions we've seen PD do in the past and recently... they seem to have this whole complex about themselves... and they go about things in a very unorthodox way... don't believe everything you hear from the PD side of the story... remember when damage wasn't included in past games because "manufacturers wouldn't allow it"? Remember when we all learned that was all a load?
     
  23. gogatrs

    United States I Hate Stalkers
    PSN:gogatrs

    Interceptor, I'd like to here if you think that Porsche has the potential to be in DLC after the exclusive liscense expires.

    Is that a possibility?
     
  24. kazuyam

    PSN:kazuyam

    That doesn't change nothing. PD still needs to buy the license. This time not from EA but directly from Porsche themself. And as rumored it seems they aren't best buddies afterall.
     
  25. WuMing77

    uk
    PSN:GTP_WuMing77

    Does your browser automatically hide the requests to avoid speculation in this thread?
     
  26. porkchop87

    PSN:porkchop_7

    I just can't help myself because threads like this just bring out my frustration with PD. It'd be nice to have these tuner companies in GT5, but more than likely nothing will come out of all this and the OP will get nothing more than canned responses to his email (like he already has, i mean have we really learned anything so far?). And at the end of the day, even if these tuner companies were included, no Porsche.

    Like mentioned earlier, it's an honorable thread, especially for us Porsche fans, but this is mostly a waste of time. Sorry to say it, but I'm straight up, that's how I am.
     
  27. SolidFishe

    PSN:SolidFishe

    Maybe you could find out what happens if PD buys a FIA GT3 license. Does it also include a license to use the Porsche 997 GT3 Cup S or do you still have to negotiate with EA?
     
  28. kazuyam

    PSN:kazuyam

    Well, your post is somehow paradox. You do criticize rumors but you also publish your own rumor.

    to Solidfishe:
    Depends on the FIA License. But I guess it shouldn't be a problem. That doesn't mean they are allowed to publish the road going version or any other Porsches. The FIA license only includes the racing version. Fact. Full Stop. In GTR Racing, the road going version is not officially supported. The textures can be found in the games data, but modders need to digg it out and apply to the 3D model of the racing version, and also it's not a high res texture afterall.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  29. HumanDestroyah

    Premium
    United States San Diego

    Great info, Subscribing to this thread. I'm interested in what Brabus has to say. :tup:
     
  30. WuMing77

    uk
    PSN:GTP_WuMing77

    Speculating again? ;)

    In any case, I don't see where the OP is saying he's going to be able to change anything (or is even attempting to). Just seeking information to clarify the status of various tuner/manufacturers. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
     
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