the Interceptor
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As a follow-up to this thread and in agreement with the moderation (thanks Touring Mars!), I'd like to shed some light onto the delicate situation Porsche, RUF and other car manufacturers have with Gran Turismo 5 and Polyphony Digital.
The purpose of this thread is to find out whether the legal situation enables Polyphony Digital to include more manufacturers like RUF in Gran Turismo. If that were the case, PD could include much more Porsche-like vehicles in future Gran Turismos and thus even out the dent the absence of Porsche leaves.
In the aforementioned thread, people claimed that RUF is the only manufacturer who can legally produce their cars as a RUF and thus circumvent the lack of a Porsche license for Gran Turismo 5. Because of that, I have contacted several manufacturers including RUF to get solid first hand information.
RUF already responded, but didn't give me any vital information. I am currently waiting for their second response. I will add the responses to this thread when I receive them. Also, I will contact some more tuners with the rank of a manufacturer which also produce cars based on Porsche parts or Porsche cars or have a status similar to RUF.
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RUF: *initial response below, waiting for second, more detailed response*
Dear Mr. XXXXXX,
the RUF Automobile GmbH is an internationally accredited car manufacturer and a member of the VDA (editorial note: German interest group of the German automobile industry). Other car companies such as Alpina, Brabus, Irmscher and Wiesmann also have the rank of a manufacturer. We don't know the situation for tuner companies.
Best regards
Norbert GXXXXXXX
Sales / Marketing
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Alpina:
Dear Mr. XXXXXX
Thank your for your e-mail.
Every BMW Alpina has a unique Alpina VIN, since Alpina, as a manufacturer, has to allocate these.
BMW Alpina cars are built at the BMW plant with our components and get their VIN at Alpina. The BMW VIN is existent in the car, but gets crossed out visibly.
With best regards
Axel RXXXXXX
Head of Production
Head of Customer Service
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Brabus: *no response yet*
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Irmscher: *no response yet*
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Gemballa: *no response yet*
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Edo Competition:
Dear Mr. XXXXXX,
we would like to give you a short response regarding your question about VIN numbers:
We produce a limited amount of vehicles we equip with VINs in a batch production. This depends on the complexity of the modifications we make to the individual car. Most of the cars keep the original VIN they were given by their manufacturer, such as Porsche.
We hope to have helped you with this information.
Best regards
Ruth HXXXXXXX
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Techart:
Dear Mr. XXXXXX,
Techart does not manufacture cars, but rather a range of individualization packages for Porsche cars. These cars remain to be Porsches after the modification. The individual changes is noted in the car's papers without any change to the brand or the VIN.
Best regards
Juergen RXXXXXXXX
Executive Assistant
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Mansory: *no response yet*
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Things we know:
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Conclusion:
Cars which wear the VIN of a manufacturer different than Porsche legally are not Porsche cars. Thus, any of the manufacturers or tuners with the rank of a manufacturer should be legal to be featured in Gran Turismo (given the manufacturer is not bound elsewhere by another contract). The following list presents that information based on the above responses:
RUF: YES (in GT already)
Alpina: YES
Brabus: *unknown*
Irmscher: *unknown*
Gemballa: *unknown*
Edo Competition: YES (for few models)
Techart: NO
Mansory: *unknown*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Important note:
This is not meant as another Porsche, RUF or GT5 bashing thread. Therefore, I kindly ask you to remain polite even if you don't share the views of others, and to stay on topic. Thank you!
The purpose of this thread is to find out whether the legal situation enables Polyphony Digital to include more manufacturers like RUF in Gran Turismo. If that were the case, PD could include much more Porsche-like vehicles in future Gran Turismos and thus even out the dent the absence of Porsche leaves.
In the aforementioned thread, people claimed that RUF is the only manufacturer who can legally produce their cars as a RUF and thus circumvent the lack of a Porsche license for Gran Turismo 5. Because of that, I have contacted several manufacturers including RUF to get solid first hand information.
RUF already responded, but didn't give me any vital information. I am currently waiting for their second response. I will add the responses to this thread when I receive them. Also, I will contact some more tuners with the rank of a manufacturer which also produce cars based on Porsche parts or Porsche cars or have a status similar to RUF.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
RUF: *initial response below, waiting for second, more detailed response*
Dear Mr. XXXXXX,
the RUF Automobile GmbH is an internationally accredited car manufacturer and a member of the VDA (editorial note: German interest group of the German automobile industry). Other car companies such as Alpina, Brabus, Irmscher and Wiesmann also have the rank of a manufacturer. We don't know the situation for tuner companies.
Best regards
Norbert GXXXXXXX
Sales / Marketing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alpina:
Dear Mr. XXXXXX
Thank your for your e-mail.
Every BMW Alpina has a unique Alpina VIN, since Alpina, as a manufacturer, has to allocate these.
BMW Alpina cars are built at the BMW plant with our components and get their VIN at Alpina. The BMW VIN is existent in the car, but gets crossed out visibly.
With best regards
Axel RXXXXXX
Head of Production
Head of Customer Service
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brabus: *no response yet*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irmscher: *no response yet*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gemballa: *no response yet*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Edo Competition:
Dear Mr. XXXXXX,
we would like to give you a short response regarding your question about VIN numbers:
We produce a limited amount of vehicles we equip with VINs in a batch production. This depends on the complexity of the modifications we make to the individual car. Most of the cars keep the original VIN they were given by their manufacturer, such as Porsche.
We hope to have helped you with this information.
Best regards
Ruth HXXXXXXX
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Techart:
Dear Mr. XXXXXX,
Techart does not manufacture cars, but rather a range of individualization packages for Porsche cars. These cars remain to be Porsches after the modification. The individual changes is noted in the car's papers without any change to the brand or the VIN.
Best regards
Juergen RXXXXXXXX
Executive Assistant
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mansory: *no response yet*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Things we know:
- Electronic Arts has an exclusive Porsche license. They give out sub-licenses to companies like Turn10 (creators of Forza Motorsport) for money. PD was not able to obtain a sub-license for GT5, the reason is unknown. Source
- RUF Automobile often is referred to as a tuner, which they also are. However, they have the status of a manufacturer and get unmarked bodies and chassis from Porsche to build their own cars, which seems to be a novelty. This means that even when their cars look like Porsches, by law they are RUFs and thus are legally in Gran Turismo. Source
- The manufacturer of a vehicle is coded in its VIN (vehicle identification number), which is to be found on the identification plate of its chassis. The important information is whether RUF is the only manufacturer who puts their own VINs into their cars, or whether other tuners with the rank of a manufacturer are allowed to do the same thing. This is important because by law, the VIN identifies a manufacturer, thus one can argue that a car is not a Porsche, even if it contains Porsche parts and/or looks like a Porsche, but has a different VIN. The VIN is internationally accepted and identifies the manufacturer of a vehicle on a worldwide basis
- I tried to contact EA through various channels, but I never got any specific answer regarding the licensing. I was either ignored or directed from one spokesperson to the other.
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Conclusion:
Cars which wear the VIN of a manufacturer different than Porsche legally are not Porsche cars. Thus, any of the manufacturers or tuners with the rank of a manufacturer should be legal to be featured in Gran Turismo (given the manufacturer is not bound elsewhere by another contract). The following list presents that information based on the above responses:
RUF: YES (in GT already)
Alpina: YES
Brabus: *unknown*
Irmscher: *unknown*
Gemballa: *unknown*
Edo Competition: YES (for few models)
Techart: NO
Mansory: *unknown*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Important note:
This is not meant as another Porsche, RUF or GT5 bashing thread. Therefore, I kindly ask you to remain polite even if you don't share the views of others, and to stay on topic. Thank you!
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