Sciaru BRZFRS (BreezeFrees)

[Leonidae@MFT]

Chris Harris probably would disagree..

 

[RACECAR]

Chris Harris probably would disagree..

Having watched Chris Harris for abit, I think its more like he will disagree.

 

[homeforsummer]

Chris Harris probably would disagree..

Since when has one single journalist's opinion been any better than any other journalist? Just because someone is well-known, it doesn't automatically make them right. Case in point: Jeremy Clarkson.

Harris, like many others in the motoring media, has only driven the car on a circuit so far (Harris, as far as I know, has also only driven the manual-transmission'd 86, rather than the auto'd BRZ). EVO had it for five days and it got driven by several people.

You can either accept that they've made an educated assessment that happens to disagree with your uneducated opinion on the matter, or you can assume that a bunch of people who drive cars for a living don't know better than someone on a forum who hasn't driven any of them. Which sounds like it makes more sense to you?

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

They're comparing apples to oranges, is it really that hard to see?

 

[homeforsummer]

They're comparing apples to oranges, is it really that hard to see?

They're comparing fun cars with fun cars, is it really that hard to see?

If it offends your sensibilities that much to see a FWD car ranked ahead of three RWD ones then maybe you should just stick to believing your own opinions, rather than reading those of others.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Then, why didn't they make it good journalism by using a car that has similar performance figures instead of similar price? I mean, only option missing from that Megane was Cup chassis, otherwise it's fully built for track work..

Actually, the Trophy version includes the Cup chassis.

 

[dsgerbc]

It also has softer springs at the back, and as you say - less aggressive damping. Subaru itself has said the car isn't set up as aggressively as the Toyota - i.e. it's a softer setup. Early tests seem to suggest the 86 is happier to go sideways than the Subaru.

Scion has softer springs up front. So, which car is "softer" needs to be quantified by part and speed of the corner.

I don't think Subaru ever said that BRZ is "less agressive". The words they usually use is "set-up for stability".

And like I said - the difference is miniscule. I'm sure Toyota/Scion ad department will sponsor/produce more videos of its car going sideways, but IRL the difference is very small.

EVO article might be informative for people in the UK, where what they tested costs the same. It's just says that FRS/BRZ is overpriced there. Still, testing an automatic seems like an unprofessional move by EVO.

 

[homeforsummer]

The words they usually use is "set-up for stability".

And what does that imply to you?... To me it implies a car not set up to rotate as easily.

EVO article might be informative for people in the UK, where what they tested costs the same. It's just says that FRS/BRZ is overpriced there. Still, testing an automatic seems like an unprofessional move by EVO.

Ignore price for a second. It's irrelevant. The article was about fun.

Three of the vehicles in the test are available in the U.S, so it's equally as relevant there. The automatic thing is unfortunate, but having read all their articles in that particular issue, it looks like it wouldn't have made much difference had the car been a manual.

And there's nothing "unprofessional" about it if they had no control over it. It would have been considerably more "unprofessional" - as journalists - to accept the handful of hours they would have got with the car in the south of France and based a verdict on that, rather than borrowing it for considerably longer and testing it more thoroughly.

 

[dsgerbc]

And what does that imply to you?... To me it implies a car not set up to rotate as easily.

Nope, does not imply that to me. Depends on the corner.

Ignore price for a second. It's irrelevant. The article was about fun.

Sooo, they should've tested it against Atom or '13 Boxster, and would've still remained relevant?
Price is never irrelevant.
Like I said, I need a roof, so MX5 is out. 370z is way more dough. So again, zero relevant info in that article. Someone who's in the market in the UK might disagree.

And there's nothing "unprofessional" about it if they had no control over it. It would have been considerably more "unprofessional" - as journalists - to accept the handful of hours they would have got with the car in the south of France and based a verdict on that, rather than borrowing it for considerably longer and testing it more thoroughly.

AT is geared differently and on some shifts that puts your right into the dip in torque around 4k. Changes the perception of the car quite a bit. Also AT reportedly changes gear in corner on its own. The point of this car is the feeling of connection to the road. If you cut the number of channels of tactile feedback in your test car - you're not testing it properly. So, like I said: sad and unprofessional of EVO.

 

[YSSMAN]

Price is never irrelevant.

Like I said, I need a roof, so MX5 is out. 370z is way more dough. So again, zero relevant info in that article. Someone who's in the market in the UK might disagree.

And that's why the video I posted means so much when they put it up against the '13 Mustang V6 Track Pack. The Ford is cheaper, more powerful, and faster around the Streets of Willow... But it just isn't as much fun to drive as the BRZ.

The whole thing depends on where your preferences lie.

Personally, I totally understand the importance of the car. I'd love to have something that is arguably the purest driving experience since the original MX-5, or the early NSX's. They seem to be built pretty well, they should be highly functional as an everyday vehicle, and in the end will generally be unlike anything on the road.

...But when it comes down to actually spending money, that's where I have a hard time. Justifying stripped-down models for $25-27K against well-equipped Mustangs and MX-5s is hard to do. My sensibilities have a hard time overcoming that difference when, for the most part, both the Mustang and MX-5 will hold their own in the "purity" category, but for different reasons.

"Fun" is of course, objective. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that the FR-S and BRZ isn't. But value for money is something that is more black and white, and in that sense, those two don't hold up as well. Unfortunately, I have yet to see a publication challenge Toyota and Subaru on that subject.

Hell, I'm surprised that Ford hasn't said something about it...

 

[dsgerbc]

But value for money is something that is more black and white, and in that sense, those two don't hold up as well. Unfortunately, I have yet to see a publication challenge Toyota and Subaru on that subject.

Hell, I'm surprised that Ford hasn't said something about it...

Why would Ford bother before it is clear that these could make a significant dent in Mustang sales?

While personally I'd like to get one, at this point I still have plenty of doubts that the car will do well. And the price is part of the blame. In a few months one should be able to get them under invoice, which is a better deal, but still, to get volume they have to be competitive price-wise for people who don't value 'purity' too much and shop by numbers and packaged features. I am getting one early mostly because I fear that one more global recession or further significant strengthening of the yen could kill this segment, and noone would even attempt to enter it for a loooong-loooong time.

 

[eSZee]

Nope, does not imply that to me. Depends on the corner.

Subaru = understeer. Has been that way for years. It goes with their safe/reliable, dog loving, cheap paint image.

It's just says that FRS/BRZ is overpriced there.

Just like it is here.

Price is never irrelevant.
Like I said, I need a roof, so MX5 is out.

The Hard Top MX5 has been sold here for how many years now?

Since when has one single journalist's opinion been any better than any other journalist?

Because race driver. Oh wait, no. Harris likes taking corners sideways. Everyone here likes thinking they take corners sideways, therefore Harris = always right.

 

[niky]

Give me soft springs and stiff dampers any time.

And that's having not driven either car.

I trust Harris' opinions, but a racetrack is a lot different from real world roads. I've always liked Evo's group tests because more heads are always better, and the distance and variety of roads they drive gives a good indication of the handling envelope of the car.

PRHT MX-5. The protection and chassis rigidity of a fixed-top, the convenience of a convertible, and no compromise in trunk space. And you can always add a hairdryer for a little more oomph.

 

[JCE]

And that's why the video I posted means so much when they put it up against the '13 Mustang V6 Track Pack. The Ford is cheaper, more powerful, and faster around the Streets of Willow... But it just isn't as much fun to drive as the BRZ.

Actually, I bet the V6 Mustang with the track pack (aka performance package) is every bit as much fun around a road course and even MORE fun in real life versus this Subaru/Toyota/Scion.

Somehow I believe there is just too much hate still for not only the Mustang but American cars in general with most of this crowd in here. Ford finally (starting in '05) starts building a well handling car which actually got even better as time went on and the rest of the world could care less. If this Subaru/Toyota/Scion has this "performance" (all 197bhp of it) for $24,200 and the V6 Mustang with +108bhp more for $24,990--which includes the performance handling package--then the decision is a no-brainer. $24,990 is a FREAKING STEAL for a RWD 305bhp well handling coupe. If you like the Subaru/Toyota/Scion then so be it, knock yourself out and have a great time. I'm simply stating they dropped the ball by not making an available package with more power for not that much more money.

Ok, dead horse is beaten. Later folks.

 

[homeforsummer]

Nope, does not imply that to me. Depends on the corner.

On what world is a car that Subaru says is set up "more stable" going to be the looser car?

Sooo, they should've tested it against Atom or '13 Boxster, and would've still remained relevant?

Yes. The Boxster particularly (or the Cayman). But since EVO - and most other car mags - hold an end-of-year bash to decide which car is the best to drive, it applies whatever you put the car against.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. Toyota/Subaru says their car is designed specifically to be fun. If you're judging solely on the criteria of fun, the car's USP, you can stick it against whatever you like. They could have put it against a £15k base-model Caterham 7 and it would still have been a relevant test.

Like I said, I need a roof, so MX5 is out. 370z is way more dough. So again, zero relevant info in that article. Someone who's in the market in the UK might disagree.

Ah, I geddit. So just like Leo, for whom the article is biased because a RWD car doesn't win, the article is irrelevant to you because your car-choosing criteria rule out the other cars in the test. Gotcha.

So, like I said: sad and unprofessional of EVO.

I'll put this here again, since you clearly didn't read it.

And there's nothing "unprofessional" about it if they had no control over it. It would have been considerably more "unprofessional" - as journalists - to accept the handful of hours they would have got with the car in the south of France and based a verdict on that, rather than borrowing it for considerably longer and testing it more thoroughly.

"Fun" is of course, objective.

I expect you mean subjective

 

[Bram Turismo]

Was the driver trying to upset the car on purpose in that video? It might've been me, but I barely saw him clipping any apex's at all through all the high speed corners. I just can't take the man's opinion all too seriously when he drives the car for one single lap, throws it all over the place in a way too aggressive manner and then concluding he doesn't like it.

 

[homeforsummer]

Was the driver trying to upset the car on purpose in that video? It might've been me, but I barely saw him clipping any apex's at all through all the high speed corners. I just can't take the man's opinion all too seriously when he drives the car for one single lap, throws it all over the place in a way too aggressive manner and then concluding he doesn't like it.

I expect they gave it more than one lap in five days of testing Videos from car mags are done for dramatic effect rather than for anything serious to be deduced from them. The opinions in the vid will be the result of several days driving, the vid itself is just a bit of tyre-squealing fun.

 

[Keef]

That's nothing like what anybody else has said about the car. The only difference between this test and their tests is that this one has a flappy paddle automatic (I didn't even know they offered an automatic). Why anybody would ever test the Auto I'm not sure, except perhaps to troll the journalistic community with the one single bad review that nobody really believes is the case.

You Europeans and your flappy paddles. You never cease to amaze me.

Now, it is a fact that the Subaru is more stable and less tail-happy because of its suspension tuning than the Toyota and Scion versions. That didn't stop Randy Pobst from being enthralled by how well the car handles subjectively.

 

[homeforsummer]

You Europeans and your flappy paddles. You never cease to amaze me.

Again, it was the only car available. If they could have used a manual, I suspect they would have.

As EVO points out too, their review does look negative, but they're also one of the very few outlets who have spent any real time with the car, rather than the drip-fed track time that most other mags have had.

Probably worth adding that they don't hate the BRZ, they're just a bit disappointed it isn't as drift-worthy as they'd been led to believe by all the hype - which again, is something the Scion/Toyota may rectify.

 

[Bram Turismo]

How much drifting can one expect to do with only 200hp, though?

 

[homeforsummer]

How much drifting can one expect to do with only 200hp, though?

It's not so much drifting as just having a car that's happy to go sideways without much effort. It seems the Subaru (though not necessarily the Toyota) isn't as happy to do that, though again the auto 'box may be a factor.

It's a car that's supposed to teach people the basics of car control, but if you have to really be moving some to get it to go sideways then you introduce a whole lot more risk into the equation. For a lot of people, this'll be their first RWD car.

EVO's full review seemed to suggest that the MX5 is happier going sideways (with less power).

I'm reserving judgement until I've seen them do a full review of the Toyota with a manual gearbox, but I'm not about to start accusing them of "bias" or whatever just because they've been disappointed by a car that everyone else is swooning over. They do tend to know what they're talking about...

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

They both looked genuinely disappointed in the BR-Z.

Two things I gleaned from the video:

The Subaru sounds just terrible. It doesn't really sound like anything. It's not aggressive sounding like a Honda 4, and it's not throaty sounding like a Subaru 4. It just sounds totally flat across the entire rev band. A n/a engine nearing 100hp/l should sound amazing. This sounds totally....flaccid. I don't think I would ever consider one for this reason alone. A sports car has to sound good.

It's really got me thinking the Subaru has different intake or exhaust configuration. I remember an old video of the Toyota version at Fuji sounded much more meaty. Compare the two:



I mean it still doesn't sound brilliant, but it's got more character than the Subaru. It's possible it's just the difference in audio capture quality.


The other thing is that it just isn't a good looking car. The proportions are just strange and the front end is just typically overstyled.

 

[RACECAR]

I can definately hear a distinct difference in Audio Quality, the subaru video sounds alot like the typical shaky cam audio.

 

[Keef]

This engine sounds like a typical 4-cylinder. You shouldn't compare the Honda VTEC engines because they sound like a 4-cylinder with a hot cam at high rpm (because they are), and you can't compare the older Subaru fours to this because Subaru has gotten rid of their unequal length exhaust manifolds in favor of a more efficient design.

So basically this engine sounds like what it's supposed to sound like.

There was also quite a bit of difference in terms of interior sound level as was shown in the Best Motoring video. The Subaru is a lot quieter inside than the Toyota/Scion, probably as part of its more mature and more pricey image.

 

[RocZX]

 

[dsgerbc]

The Subaru is a lot quieter inside than the Toyota/Scion, probably as part of its more mature and more pricey image.

Doubt it. Insulation would show up as extra weight, which there isn't any sign of. It's just the mic, or possibly different 'noise tube' tuning.

 

[niky]

It's not so much drifting as just having a car that's happy to go sideways without much effort. It seems the Subaru (though not necessarily the Toyota) isn't as happy to do that, though again the auto 'box may be a factor.

It's a car that's supposed to teach people the basics of car control, but if you have to really be moving some to get it to go sideways then you introduce a whole lot more risk into the equation. For a lot of people, this'll be their first RWD car.

EVO's full review seemed to suggest that the MX5 is happier going sideways (with less power).

I'm reserving judgement until I've seen them do a full review of the Toyota with a manual gearbox, but I'm not about to start accusing them of "bias" or whatever just because they've been disappointed by a car that everyone else is swooning over. They do tend to know what they're talking about...

You'll be interested in the MotoIQ review then, Similar verdict. Mild understeer at the limit, needs to be kicked hard to oversteer, not helped by low power. Very... "safe". Perhaps Toyota should've gone an extra rung lower on the tire ladder...

 

[homeforsummer]

EVO's problem with the tyres is that they didn't seem to be very progressive. I don't think they took issue with the grip levels as such, more that they broke away more suddenly - and not as easily - as you'd expect.

They did say the car might be more fun on a wet road, since the limits are a lot lower anyway. I've always preferred driving on wet roads in most cars. Not as much grip, so you spend more time adjusting the car at its limits. Dry roads have this annoying "damn, could have gone faster there" feel about them. Wet roads are more like "blimey... glad I didn't go faster there!"

 

[Dan_]

I liked the test, but I'd rather have them filming only in open roads.

It was a nice comparison of two sporty cars, but if the decision to buy either of these was mine, I'd never even consider cross shopping these two. My money would be specifically to buy either a hot hatch ( There are loads of them to choose from ) or a small rear-drive car ( BRZ, MX-5 or even a second-hand Boxster ). Differences in practicality, drivetrain, seating position and everyday usability render them very different to live with, I suppose.

Living in a never-ever-snowing place as I do, I'd still gladly choose the BRZ.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I just saw 2 FR-S (one red A/T & one white M/T) at Desert Toyota here in Vegas. The white looks really good on it and the way the color blends around the car reminds me at the lovable '07 STi.

-> I just bought this (IMHO soon to be very rare) magazine:

^ I bought the last copy at Little Tokyo in LA.

EDIT BONUS -> The Fast Lane Featured a video of the FR-S Five Axis Edition: