Serious question: Gamepad VS Wheel, which has more steering capacity?

[NixxxoN]

I'm a gamepad player since all my life, and in GT5/GT6 I have always been totally unable to turn certain corners as fast as the wheel drivers. They simply seem to have a higher turning radius. You notice this most in the high speed long corners or the very tight successive ones, all the ones who require a lot of steering input in general.
Some players suggest that there might be some issue depending of the steering sensitivity setting. I always use 7, the maximum one, but I dont know how this has anything to do with the steering radius...

 

[FussyFez]

I'm a gamepad player since all my life, and in GT5/GT6 I have always been totally unable to turn certain corners as fast as the wheel drivers. They simply seem to have a higher turning radius. You notice this most in the high speed long corners or the very tight successive ones, all the ones who require a lot of steering input in general.
Some players suggest that there might be some issue depending of the steering sensitivity setting. I always use 7, the maximum one, but I dont know how this has anything to do with the steering radius...

I'm a long term dfgt user...

You would be surprised how little steering angle is needed, alot of the time.

Very rarely whilst racing will I be anywhere near full lock.

Whilst drifting, I'll regularly be banging off the lock stops. I'm sure DS3 users get just as much full lock, and its argued that DS3 is faster lock2lock.



I'd say there is no difference.

 

[YZF]

It's much easier to drive fast with wheel than with gamepad. No question about it. And best times are achieved with wheel only.

 

[Mirado_7]

Honestly it sounds like you just need to slow down. You know the old adage...slow down to go fast.
Be smooth, brake once, turn once, power out once.
If you're getting anywhere near lock, then you are over driving the car.

A more direct answer tho is the Ds3 is far faster on turning speed, a wheel can't go lock to lock in less than a second.

 

[ColouredBadger]

Honestly it sounds like you just need to slow down. You know the old adage...slow down to go fast.
Be smooth, brake once, turn once, power out once.
If you're getting anywhere near lock, then you are over driving the car.

That's one thing a wheel offers, fluidity. You can go through a complex being super-smooth and losing hardly any speed when changing direction but a DS3's can be jumpy when changing direction.

I think DS3's and Wheels have the same wheel lock from full left to full right but the speed it takes to do that is significantly increased with a joystick and that creates the rough, jumpy inputs you sometimes get with a controller. And as Mirado said, you have to be smooth to stay fast. I think that's all it is.

Plus, the throttle inputs are significantly more sensitive too. On a joypad button you have hardly any movement from 0% throttle to 100% throttle, probably 2 millimetres and a wheels has a good 3 inches of movement so the inputs can be a lot smoother, especially when it comes to the higher powered cars. Wheel users can get on the power earlier because of the distance between 0% throttle and 100% throttle and how sensitive they can be with it.

 

[MindsMirror]

The gamepad can't do everything the wheel can do. If you are going round a high speed corner and move the analog stick all the way to the right, you aren't actually in full lock, but if you move the wheel all the way to the right, you are. With a gamepad, you only turn the wheels as much as PD thinks you should. In some hairpins the gamepad might not quite allow you to get to full lock, where you can with a wheel. With a wheel you have more precision for high speed corners to get the perfect angle. Smooth is fast, so the gamepad's advantage of quick inputs isn't really an advantage unless you've already made a mistake and are trying to correct it.

 

[Dodzzz]

The only good thing about DS3 is you can countersteer faster than the wheel (at least mine is 900 degree DFGT)..
I always complete drift challenges using DS3, there's no way I could learn drifting using my wheel that's also why I respect real life drifters a lot

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

In a way everyone is correct about certain points.

- A wheel can in fact turn more than a controller, which is most noticable on high speed corners. If you're doing 120mph and suddenly turn full lock, a controller will be restricted to some degree while the wheel will not. This can be noticed both visually at the front wheels themselves and by the tire temperature gauge; the wheel user's tires will scrub and overheat more. This can work as both an advantage and disadvantage depending on the situation, particularly if aids are being used.

- A controller will go lock to lock faster than a wheel, it's usually easier to recover from a full sideways moment caused by either clipping the grass or a large knock from another car.

- A wheel is faster overall thanks to it's finer range of input, including the pedals too.

 

[t_wilson01]

A mate's custom track in GT5 had a long back straight with an easy right hand turn. DS3 users such as me had to lift quite a bit or we'd go off and hit the barrier, while wheel users could go flat out. We were using stock cars with no tuning allowed, so they should all had been the same.

 

[FussyFez]

The answer to the thread is neither.


They both have the same maximum steering angle.

Just a wheel user has the choice to use any angle at any time.

It won't benefit a wheel user to turn more at the point of understeer though, the understeer will just get (alot) worse.

Any DS3 user thinking that the wheel user is faster round tight hairpins because they are at full lock, are disillusioned in afraid.

Even the hairpins at Eiger only need a maximum of 180degrees of steering. Sometimes alot less.

Ds3 users get the maximum amount of usable steering angle at any one time, depending on the situation.

Whilst drifting, a ds3 user will get the same full lock angle as a wheel user, because the game recognises that you need access to the full steering range at that moment in time, and therefore allows it.



If the ds3 analog stick gave 100% linear steering, so full lock at full stick, regardless of situation, you would have a very twitchy car at high speed, and would likely have a very hard time driving smoothly.

 

[Siren]

Something that can be of help to DS3 users, if you slacken your triggers and analog stick you have much more control of your inputs. So many times I've had people in lobbies asking me what wheel I use or whats the settings for my wheel. In no way its better than a wheel but it makes you drive a lot smoother

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Delete. Wow, good job PS3 web browser, just wrote a long message and none of it posted, only the message I quoted.

 

[NixxxoN]

The gamepad can't do everything the wheel can do. If you are going round a high speed corner and move the analog stick all the way to the right, you aren't actually in full lock, but if you move the wheel all the way to the right, you are. With a gamepad, you only turn the wheels as much as PD thinks you should. In some hairpins the gamepad might not quite allow you to get to full lock, where you can with a wheel. With a wheel you have more precision for high speed corners to get the perfect angle. Smooth is fast, so the gamepad's advantage of quick inputs isn't really an advantage unless you've already made a mistake and are trying to correct it.

In a way everyone is correct about certain points.

- A wheel can in fact turn more than a controller, which is most noticable on high speed corners. If you're doing 120mph and suddenly turn full lock, a controller will be restricted to some degree while the wheel will not. This can be noticed both visually at the front wheels themselves and by the tire temperature gauge; the wheel user's tires will scrub and overheat more. This can work as both an advantage and disadvantage depending on the situation, particularly if aids are being used.

- A controller will go lock to lock faster than a wheel, it's usually easier to recover from a full sideways moment caused by either clipping the grass or a large knock from another car.

- A wheel is faster overall thanks to it's finer range of input, including the pedals too.

Those are exactly the answers I was looking for. I'm glat I'm not the only one who see it clearly.

Honestly it sounds like you just need to slow down. You know the old adage...slow down to go fast.
Be smooth, brake once, turn once, power out once.
If you're getting anywhere near lock, then you are over driving the car.

A more direct answer tho is the Ds3 is far faster on turning speed, a wheel can't go lock to lock in less than a second.

No, its not about taking the corners wrong.

Delete. Wow, good job PS3 web browser, just wrote a long message and none of it posted, only the message I quoted.

From your PS3?? Worst way of web browsing ever

 

[Samus]

If you browse on here from the PS3 you really have to do it with Javascript turned off, the browser slowly dies otherwise.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Some DS3 users can or could consistently make into the top ranks of the TT's. @Doodle (formerly doodlemonoply) was a consistent top finisher with his DS3 so the potential must be there for success. I believe people qualified for GTAcademy on a DS3 as well. And yes, I believe as was said above, part of that is taking the corners "wrong" for lack of a better word. If the DS3 was hands down not on par with a wheel, no DS3 user would make it into the top 100 or top 50 with a DS3 and yet they do, so the potential has to be there.

 

[NixxxoN]

Some DS3 users can or could consistently make into the top ranks of the TT's. @Doodle (formerly doodlemonoply) was a consistent top finisher with his DS3 so the potential must be there for success. I believe people qualified for GTAcademy on a DS3 as well. And yes, I believe as was said above, part of that is taking the corners "wrong" for lack of a better word. If the DS3 was hands down not on par with a wheel, no DS3 user would make it into the top 100 or top 50 with a DS3 and yet they do, so the potential has to be there.

You have to take in count the % of players with wheel and gamepad in the top 100 for example. I bet about 90% or more of them will use wheel.

 

[Kavey]

This discussion looks like it sheds some light on why some cars seem horrible on DS3 vs Wheel - e.g. the Toyota FT-1, I've heard many wheel users saying they love it and it handles great, whereas I find it horrible on a DS3, heavy and very understeery.

That said, I only have a DS3 and don't find it an impediment as I tune my cars to cater for how it works and my play style - I just have to be a lot tighter with my settings to help smooth out the 'leadfoot' effect when accelerating out of corners to avoid sliding etc with stiffer LSD and the like.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You have to take in count the % of players with wheel and gamepad in the top 100 for example. I bet about 90% or more of them will use wheel.

It's about 25/75 wheel/DS3, but I'm guessing most people that are serious about sim racing will have a wheel which is part of the reason the leaderboards are crowded with wheels.

This discussion looks like it sheds some light on why some cars seem horrible on DS3 vs Wheel - e.g. the Toyota FT-1, I've heard many wheel users saying they love it and it handles great, whereas I find it horrible on a DS3, heavy and very understeery.

That said, I only have a DS3 and don't find it an impediment as I tune my cars to cater for how it works and my play style - I just have to be a lot tighter with my settings to help smooth out the 'leadfoot' effect when accelerating out of corners to avoid sliding etc with stiffer LSD and the like.

I have a wheel and I find the FT-1 sluggish, unresponsive and understeery. Anyone that says different is full of crap. Keep in mind that when GTAcademy is near, people will begin to praise everything about PD they can find because they're afraid they'll end up being visited one night by Kaz or one of his people with printouts of all the nasty stuff they said about the game. I've noticed it blatantly a few times already

 

[NixxxoN]

It's about 25/75 wheel/DS3, but I'm guessing most people that are serious about sim racing will have a wheel which is part of the reason the leaderboards are crowded with wheels.

Source for that? And You mean 75% wheels and 25% gamepads I suppose (note: not all ps3 gamepads are ds3)

Also we should try to see how many % of TOTAL people taking part of the academy, I guess the vast majority of players use a gamepad, therefore this increases the possibility of top gamepad times, still it isnt enough for them to challenge the wheels.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Source for that? And You mean 75% wheels and 25% gamepads I suppose (note: not all ps3 gamepads are ds3)

Also we should try to see how many % of TOTAL people taking part of the academy, I guess the vast majority of players use a gamepad, therefore this increases the possibility of top gamepad times, still it isnt enough for them to challenge the wheels.

No I mean what I said, 25/75 wheel/DS3. You have to do the calculations manually, but I did it a couple of times in GT5 from here: http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3

One thing the statistics don't tell is how the % of wheel users are distributed. I don't think it's a random spread of skill, with 25% of casual players using a wheel and 25% of highly skilled players using one as well. As I said, most guys that are at the top of the leaderboards are the more serious players and naturally they'll have the best equipment. Casual players tend towards the DS3. So it follows that the more serious you are, the better your results, likely the better equipment you will have. Just as it's more likely if you're a serious DS3 user, you'll be using the joysticks for more accuracy as opposed to the pads. But as I recall, about 1/6 of all entrants still use a pad. Even still you'll always find DS3 users scattered among the top players so it is possible to do, it's just much more likely that the best players have spent money on the sim aspect of the game and will therefore have wheels.

 

[Numbers]

I'm a long term dfgt user...

You would be surprised how little steering angle is needed, alot of the time.

Very rarely whilst racing will I be anywhere near full lock.

Whilst drifting, I'll regularly be banging off the lock stops. I'm sure DS3 users get just as much full lock, and its argued that DS3 is faster lock2lock.



I'd say there is no difference.

when I want to be serious when I race I bust out my DFGT wheel
for drifting and money grinding I stick to my Ds3

The only good thing about DS3 is you can countersteer faster than the wheel (at least mine is 900 degree DFGT)..
I always complete drift challenges using DS3, there's no way I could learn drifting using my wheel that's also why I respect real life drifters a lot

same. ironically I can somewhat drift in the snow IRL. but oddly I don't think my DFGT could keep up with me

 

[MatskiMonk]

Interesting points being made...

I've had my T500RS wheel for a few months now, and I'm still slower than using a DS3.

I'm currently finding (and this was really bought home looking at the fastest GT Academy times in the data logger) that I'm not putting in enough steering input with the wheel. Because with the FFB of the wheel you can feel the grip go slack as you build understeer, I tend to stop turning at that point, so my turning radius stops decreasing. What I noticed with the data logger was how they were using maybe 20% more steering angle, since they must be suffering the same understeer (all other inputs and racing line were very very similar) I concluded that even as understeer builds, the additional wheel input still helps the car rotate. This is totally counter intuitive to me, and may not be the case all the time, but it certainly is at Paddock Hill Bend

Also, I find it virtually impossible to recover as well in a spin situation with a wheel compared to the DS3, even if I catch the initial slide, by the time you've wound on enough lock and the cars straightening up, it's difficult to wind it off again without getting a tank slapper on. Wheel won't self centre as fast as a stick will. Because of this, I never push 100% on the exit of corners, or at least nothing like I would on the DS3. Again, looking at the accelerator trace of the top guys on the Academy leaderboards shows that I get on the power very gingerly in comparison.

 

[NixxxoN]

No I mean what I said, 25/75 wheel/DS3. You have to do the calculations manually, but I did it a couple of times in GT5 from here: http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3

One thing the statistics don't tell is how the % of wheel users are distributed. I don't think it's a random spread of skill, with 25% of casual players using a wheel and 25% of highly skilled players using one as well. As I said, most guys that are at the top of the leaderboards are the more serious players and naturally they'll have the best equipment. Casual players tend towards the DS3. So it follows that the more serious you are, the better your results, likely the better equipment you will have. Just as it's more likely if you're a serious DS3 user, you'll be using the joysticks for more accuracy as opposed to the pads. But as I recall, about 1/6 of all entrants still use a pad. Even still you'll always find DS3 users scattered among the top players so it is possible to do, it's just much more likely that the best players have spent money on the sim aspect of the game and will therefore have wheels.

well I think the joystick is a must because the arrows/pads must be quite terrible, i dont get how can you play with a non-analog input device.

 

[grog]

As others have said, on a wheel you never use full lock, its typically 90-180 degrees max.

But I know what you're feeling, I've felt it. If you run Indianapolis speedway with a DS3 you get the sense that you cant steer enough to go the same speed you could with a wheel. So you're left having to slow down to avoid hitting the outside wall. I get the sense that even at full lock the game is only giving you as much input as it thinks you should have.

DS3 users inputs are smoothed out a bit in comparison to wheels, this is just the way it has to be programed so that wheels and controllers can be used for the same game. Now I'm not saying its easier for DS3 users, its still very hard to use a controller but they do get a little leeway.

well I think the joystick is a must because the arrows/pads must be quite terrible, i dont get how can you play with a non-analog input device.

I know a few aliens who swear by the arrows/pads. Its an odd thing but they're incredibly quick with them. One thing i noticed when trying this myself was that after every steering input the car would level out flat instantly in a unnatural manner, so the cars body roll seemed to behave differently. It seemed like you could use this to avoid big moments of body roll by tapping the pad through the turn.

I have to say the wheel has more steering input simply because the DS3 seems to only dole out as much input as it sees fit, while the wheel allows you to do whatever you want.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm currently finding (and this was really bought home looking at the fastest GT Academy times in the data logger) that I'm not putting in enough steering input with the wheel. Because with the FFB of the wheel you can feel the grip go slack as you build understeer, I tend to stop turning at that point, so my turning radius stops decreasing. What I noticed with the data logger was how they were using maybe 20% more steering angle, since they must be suffering the same understeer (all other inputs and racing line were very very similar) I concluded that even as understeer builds, the additional wheel input still helps the car rotate. This is totally counter intuitive to me, and may not be the case all the time, but it certainly is at Paddock Hill Bend

Lack of consequence for understeer is one of the weak points of the GT physics model. Not only should you push through the corner more and scrub off significantly more speed, it should put more heat into the tires and retain it longer if you continue to do it. In GT6 you can almost turn to full lock many times and it'll still continue to work nearly as well as if you're putting the correct amount of input in with little if any loss of speed or turning ability. I thought this was one of the things they were working on with the new physics and I thought the tire heat model would help with that, but it appears it didn't make the grade.👎👎

 

[MatskiMonk]

Did a little research with the data logger.

The analogue stick is speed sensitive as has been pointed out. So, I coasted from 100km/h to 20 km/h just going lock to lock on the stick in reasonable rythym. I'm sure it's not perfectly liner and there's other factors involved. But, between 70-100km/h the data logger was showing about 100-140° of steering lock, once I got down to about 25km/h, I was getting 370°+ of steering lock.

I tried testing the D-pad, but my DS3.. (actually just the standard 6-axis, not even a dual shock!) just went down the crapper! I think it's jealous of the time I spend with my wheel

So, I then tried with my wheel, first thing I noticed was that at speeds over about 15km/h I can't actually get to full lock before driving off track and invalidating the laptime for the data logger! Once at a crawl, the data logger shows the wheel doing the full 450° each way (this is actually before I hit the wheels lock stops because it's a 1080° wheel). at about 70km/h I was using about 160°.

I thought it was interesting.

 

[NixxxoN]

But I know what you're feeling, I've felt it. If you run Indianapolis speedway with a DS3 you get the sense that you cant steer enough to go the same speed you could with a wheel. So you're left having to slow down to avoid hitting the outside wall. I get the sense that even at full lock the game is only giving you as much input as it thinks you should have.

Some other examples of high speed corners where gamepads seem to suffer:

-Tokyo R246 long turn 4
-Willow Springs Big Willow last long corner sequence
-Fuji Speedway Turn 3
-Spa Eau Rouge and Pouthon
-Silverstone stowe corner
and others of this sort

 

[FussyFez]

Some other examples of high speed corners where gamepads seem to suffer:

-Tokyo R246 long turn 4
-Willow Springs Big Willow last long corner sequence
-Fuji Speedway Turn 3
-Spa Eau Rouge and Pouthon
-Silverstone stowe corner
and others of this sort

All corners that require a lift off the throttle when encountering understeer on the wheel. Turning more will not help.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

Once at a crawl, the data logger shows the wheel doing the full 450° each way (this is actually before I hit the wheels lock stops because it's a 1080° wheel). at about 70km/h I was using about 160°.

I thought it was interesting.

As far as I know 1080 degree wheels only work in 900 degree mode in GT5 and GT6.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Sometimes it's not that wheels can turn more than DS3s, but rather that it's difficult not to turn too much with the DS3.

This was shown in reverse in [the decidedly non-sim but perfectly applicable to this particular issue] GRID where the DS3 was noticeably faster because the speed-sensitive steering was set so that you could not turn too sharp and understeer with the DS3, but with the wheel it was easy to overdo it and lose your turning ability. This meant DS3s could be substantially faster through corners like the Porsche Curves at Le Mans(or perhaps we should call it "Le Mans-ish") unless the wheel user was 100% perfect, while with the pad all you had to do was turn fullly and wait to turn back for the next corner.

GT has always allowed you to overturn using the analog sticks, so the fastest way to drive is usually not using full lock. It doesn't punish you with extreme understeer as much as it should(with either controller), but in most cases the DS3 is quite able to turn enough to use more wheel lock than you really need. EDIT TO FINISH: It can be a problem when you try to turn more to overpower the understeer, but avoiding the understeer in the first place usually seems to be best.


EDIT P.S.: Yes, I posted this on my PS3. Yes, it took forever even with a keyboard. Yes, the Javascript crashed while editing and I had to restart after it failed to update the post. Yes, I'm late returning to work from lunch now.