Need some closure on Toe Settings...HELP!

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munkeeeee

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I have been searching everywhere on what the toe settings in GT3 do EXACTLY, and have found continuous contradicting statements on this these forums and others. And while the following may not pertain to real-life settings, they do pertain to this game. Finally, I seem to have decided that the following is the case.

Toe-In....the (-)NEGATIVE number for your front tires will increase turn-in response/steering response/quicker turn in/oversteer on turn in,,,,,,whatever you want to call it.

Toe-Out....the (+) POSITIVE number for your front tires will do the OPPOSITE, but will however, promote more oversteer EXITING corners.

This pertains to your FRONT tires only!

Is this the same as what others have discovered??? Thanks!!!
 
Not exactly. As a general rules...

A slight bit of toe IN will promote high speed stability. Why? Because suspension flex and rolling resistance will cause the tire to naturally toe OUT as you go faster. Most cars will run a little toe IN to counter-act this tendancy. Too much toe-out and your car will wander and otherwise act skittishly.

When your car is turning, you want BOTH wheels to be pointing in the same direction. This is NEUTRAL toe, ie. 0.0. You never, ever want anything other than the two front wheels to be pointing in the same direction in a turn --otherwise, you end up with one tire trying to point the car in one direction and the other tire pointing in a different direction.. this makes car handle badly.

A little toe-OUT can increase turn-in response, giving the imrpession of good handling, but will compromise stablity and overall grip in the long run.


///M-Spec
 
What you are saying fits very well with how I understand it in real-life, but the description of Toe in the game goes against what you said. Making me think the game has the angles messed up.
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Not exactly. As a general rules...

A little toe-OUT can increase turn-in response, giving the imrpession of good handling, but will compromise stablity and overall grip in the long run.
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Thank you for saying this! You don't know how many times I've been around this ring with guys on the Neon boards.

Duke: "Look: you don't want static toe out in the front. It toes out under acceleration anyway, even when you're not steering. When you're turning, where's all the load? On the outside front wheel. So do you want that wheel pointing towards the wrong side of the track? No. And then you add in the Ackerman, and the front end is all over the place coming out of a hard a hard corner."

Guy: "Yeah, but I saw this other guy with it, and he was like .7 seconds faster! He runs tons of toe out and swears it handles like its on rails."

Duke: "[sigh] OK, have it your way."

Honestly, in the game I usually leave front toe alone unless the car is really really wandery. You get much more rotation effect from 1 degree toe out in the back than you do from toe in up front. On high power FWD cars I go as high as 2 degrees toe out.
 
This is one thing I hate about the whole toe subject... the lack of understanding on my part. :(

Plus, my problems are always doubled thanks to the fact that we can all use the terms "toe out & toe in" rather than saying "negative toe & positive toe".

If anyone wants to give their best shot at a simple yet complete guide to toe for idiots, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Later.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
Thank you for saying this! You don't know how many times I've been around this ring with guys on the Neon boards.
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Does the Neon's front struts produce toe changes under load? Maybe it goes a little toe-in on them somehow (though I can't imagine how, but I don't know much about Neons), and they're trying to compensate?


///M-Spec
 
Originally posted by GoKents
If anyone wants to give their best shot at a simple yet complete guide to toe for idiots, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Later.
Click to expand...


I've been meaning to finally finishing my suspension tuning guide, but the last bit is quite a lot of work and I need to do some final testing.... maybe this weekend, if I get some time.


///M-Spec
 
OK, I'll give it a quick shot.

Toe OUT is when the wheels of the car are pointing away from each other as they roll forward. This is NEGATIVE toe. The degrees referenced in GT3 indicate the total angle by which the wheels are not parallel. In other words, at zero toe, the centerlines of the wheels are exactly parallel with each other and the centerline of the car. At -0.5 degrees of toe, each wheel is pointed -0.25" (away) from the centerline of the car, for a total of 0.5 degrees.

Toe IN is, therefore, positive. The wheels are pointed slightly toward each other as the car rolls forward.

Now, to get a handle on what toe does, consider what happens as the car turns. As the car settles into a turn, obviously weight transfers to the outside wheels, as we all know. That means, since those tires are handling the brunt of the cornering duties, we want their alignment to best fit the desired path of the car. If the front wheels are toed OUT and the rear wheels are toed IN, the car looks like this:
Code: 
  ^
\ - / 
|   |
|   |
/ - \
  =
As you can see, either way the car turns, left or right, the outside wheels are going to be biased slightly against that turn. Now if you reverse that, and put positive toe IN at the front and negative toe OUT at the back, you get the configuration you're looking for:
Code: 
  ^
/ - \
|   |
|   |
\ - / 
  =
Too much toe, however, adds friction on the straights, because the tires are continually crabbing slightly. So you don't want to run more toe than necessary to get good handling in the turns. As I said, rear toe OUT is more effective than front toe IN due to locations of the forces involved. Consider this example: Push a grocery cart forward, with the steering casters at the front, and make a turn. Feels like a normal car, with the back end following the front around. Then, push the cart backwards and make a turn. The end you're pushing will oversteer like crazy, because the rear wheels are steering to the outside. It's not precisely the same effect as a car, but it illustrates the point. The effect of the cornering force acts through the center of the front wheels, so adjusting toe there has a smaller effect than it does at the rear, where the effect is amplified by the distance from the rear wheels to the front.

The Ackerman toe that I mentioned above applies only to the front wheels. Suspension geometry is designed so that toe out increases as steering input increases. In other words, the farther you turn the steering wheel, the more the front tires toe out. This designed in to accomodate the fact that the inside wheel must take a tighter-radius surve than the outer wheel. Without it, the inside tire would have to crab in order to accomodate the outside wheel following its true path. So if you set too much toe OUT statically (meaning when the car is at rest), then you get too much dynamic toe out when the car corners (due to motion of the suspension).

Any help?
 
Originally posted by munkeeeee
What you are saying fits very well with how I understand it in real-life, but the description of Toe in the game goes against what you said. Making me think the game has the angles messed up.
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Actually, I believe it is you that is confused. Toe IN is positive and toe OUT is negative. So it's quite possible that you've been setting your cars up backwards. Try setting positive toe values in front and negative toe out back, and see if it doesn't behave as ///M-spec suggests.

///M-spec, the reason you want a little static toe in at the front of a Neon is because bushing compliance tends to make it toe out under acceleration. Also, if camber happens to slip, it increases toe out due to the suspnesion geometry. So static toe out leads to way too much dynamic toe out.
 
Ok, there are a couple of things I may be able to help with here. Mostly.
A. The link above is broken.
&
B. A format to use when describing toe setups. i.e.
Front wheel drive:
Front wheels: negative toe = _______. Positive toe = ___.
Rear wheel drive:
Rear Wheels: Negative toe = ____. Positive toe = _____.

Please just fill in the blanks.
Then from there maybe we could start worrying about non drive wheels. (or if your really good with this you could put all of this stuff in one document. )

Thanks again.
Later.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
OK, I'll give it a quick shot.
...
Any help?
Click to expand...

Nice. We should integrate that in the other tuning thread.


Originally posted by neon_duke
///M-spec, the reason you want a little static toe in at the front of a Neon is because bushing compliance tends to make it toe out under acceleration. Also, if camber happens to slip, it increases toe out due to the suspnesion geometry. So static toe out leads to way too much dynamic toe out. [/B]
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Yea, that's what I figured. There's probably something else going on that makes so-and-so fast.. not the toe settings.


///M-Spec
 
Originally posted by GoKents
Ok, there are a couple of things I may be able to help with here. Mostly.
A. The link above is broken.
&
B. A format to use when describing toe setups. i.e.
Front wheel drive:
Front wheels: negative toe = _______. Positive toe = ___.
Rear wheel drive:
Rear Wheels: Negative toe = ____. Positive toe = _____.

Please just fill in the blanks.
Then from there maybe we could start worrying about non drive wheels. (or if your really good with this you could put all of this stuff in one document. )

Thanks again.
Later.
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Kent:

I am not near my PS2 and I want to fire it up and triple check the Settings screen before I do that. HOWEVER, in real life and from my recollection of the game, my values are correct: toe IN id POSITIVE and toe OUT is NEGATIVE. This contradicts the page found at munkee's link, which is incorrect as far as real life goes.

But since the game defintiely has the camber angles wrong (you always want NEGATIVE camber on a performance car, but the game has positive values), I want to verify the GT3 toe angle representation myself before I fill in your chart.
 
Originally posted by munkeeeee
Fixed the Link..........

http://tuning.racing-line.org/gran_turismo/toe_alignment/toe_alignment.htm
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OK, I read through the information at this llink, and I fired up my PS2 to check how the settings are handled in GT3. This guy, whoever wrote it, is all wet. Or at least partly wet.

First and foremost, in the game and in real life, toe in is POSITIVE and toe out is NEGATIVE, for both axles. The info at racing-line is incorrect on that score. In the little summary at the bottom, he's not only got the values reversed for his descriptions, but some of his advice is mediocre at best, even allowing for differences between the game and real life. For instance, he quotes front toe out as being the proper way to reduce excessively quick steering response on MR or RR cars... when it would be toe IN that does so. Unfortunately, he's not consistent in his reversal, so it's not a simple positive/neagtive misunderstanding to clear up. He's just not very clear in his conception. He also says this:
All cars with medium to high Down Force will benefit from zero to a slight toe-out alignment. This can induce the required optimum handling package of turn-in understeer and corner exit oversteer.
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This is actually the worst possible handling condition, at least in my experience. The optimum, late-apex racing line for most simple corners calls for a tighter turn at the beginning of the corner, followed by a shallower path at corner exit. This allows the earliest possible acceleration and thus higher exit speeds for the following straight.

So why on earth would you want to set up the car for understeer at turn-in - when you want rotation - and oversteer at exit, when you want to be able to stand on the gas and let the car track out?

That's exactly opposite of what should yield fastest times: mild entry oversteer, to get the car rotated early, followed by mild exit understeer, allowing the car to four-wheel-drift past the apex and through trackout under hard acceleration. Note that I'm using four-wheel-drift with its real meaning, "cornering with all four wheels at the limit of adhesion", not with the modern made-in-Japan terminology.
 
Thanks neon. You said just what I wanted to hear.

toe out = negative.
toe in = positive.

Thats about all I need... the game sums up the affects of toe in & out on wheels, so from there it was just knowing which direction = which number scale. (+ vs - )

Thanks again, this should help my tuning quite a bit considering that since I got serious with my tuning I stopped using toe all together... now I have a new weapon in my tuning arsenal. Toe.

Thanks again... later.
 
neon_duke,

I'm not sure what version of GT3 you have, but the info scroll under Toe Settings in the game says Toe-Out on the front will reduce the loss of grip while cornering but steering response will suffer. Are you saying your game does not say this? I know this is wrong as to real-life, but the point I am making is that the GAME IS WRONG. We both know Toe-out in front increases steering response. So please check your GT3 again because I am starting 2 believe my game is the only one that says this. Thanks
 
I've never ever read the scrolling info there. In that case, you could well be right about what it says. But I have not found that to be true, in the game or in real life. And much of what the writer on racing-line put out is just plain wrong, whether you're talking GT or RL.
 
Originally posted by munkeeeee
neon_duke,

I'm not sure what version of GT3 you have, but the info scroll under Toe Settings in the game says Toe-Out on the front will reduce the loss of grip while cornering but steering response will suffer. Are you saying your game does not say this? I know this is wrong as to real-life, but the point I am making is that the GAME IS WRONG. We both know Toe-out in front increases steering response. So please check your GT3 again because I am starting 2 believe my game is the only one that says this. Thanks
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Dude, I just need to know...

Where are you getting your info?

I don't think you are right at all.

Just think about this for a second... toe out reduces initial steering and increases hard turning grip...

With the front wheels toed out, the initial turn-in will suffer from the fact that the outside wheel is already facing the opposite direction. However, as with camber, the wheel changes position throughout a turn. This means that in a hard turn, as the car pushes forward and out, the outside wheel is slowly going to straighten out and give better steering/grip.

Judge my comments how you will.
I look forward to a response.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
I've never ever read the scrolling info there. In that case, you could well be right about what it says. But I have not found that to be true, in the game or in real life. And much of what the writer on racing-line put out is just plain wrong, whether you're talking GT or RL.
Click to expand...

not picking on you or anythin duke, but if what you think is the opposite to what the game says and you apply you definition and not the games then by rights any settings that you have been doing are probably having a negative effect on the handling of your cars on gt3.... or polly could have the onscreen definition ass about. :)
 
My opinion only… just trying to keep it simple.

Direct quote from the “TOE ANGLE” settings

“The toe angles of the front and rear tires are adjustable. A very slight toe-out in front gives a minor drop in steering response, but it can reduce the loss of grip when turning hard. A toe-in of the rear boosts straight line stability of the car. While a toe-out setting for the rear makes the car turn more easily, low-level oversteer will appear in most cases, making the car harder to drive. The rear toe angle is said to have a greater effect on the characteristics of the car than the front.”

Looking at the diagram, for the FRONT TOE, we see that moving toward the “+” sign will give a “toe-in” setting and moving to the “-“ sign will give a “toe-out” setting. Based on what the game says toe-out will achieve, one would assume that the front toe should be set to a NEGATIVE number.

Now, looking at the diagram for the REAR TOE, we see that it’s measuring off the REAR edge of the tire. Not correct… always measured off the FRONT edge. A move to the “+” sign will toe-out the REAR of the tire and actually toe-in the front of the tire. The moves themselves follow the logic of the front, which is toe-in = positive and toe-out = negative. Based on my own experience however, I have found that the actions for the rear toe are backwards of what they “should “ be. Meaning that a POSITIVE number for rear to will help promote low level oversteer and a NEGATIVE number will promote understeer.

In a nutshell, I set most of my cars with -.5 to –1 front toe and 0 to +2 rear toe. I mostly leave rear toe at 0 for less drag, unless it’s an unsteerable pig like the Vitz.

Again, this is only my opinion for the game, not real life.
 
Almost the first move I make to any FWD car in the game is to add -0.5 to -1.0 toe at the rear (toe OUT). I find this to eliminate the understeer without the need for radical suspension settings, which lends creedence to the game having that modelled correctly, since that matches real life.

You are correct, Kodiak, in that the diagram should be identical to the front tire. But since they reversed the + and - signs, the net effect is correct.
 

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