Disappointed in GT4?
- Thread starter Nigal
- 176 comments
- 9,049 views
Hmm...seems like I should've come back here sooner, so that I wouldn't be defending my position a few pages late! 
The main reason I come to GTPlanet is because it is home to the biggest, most active Enthusia forum on the 'net. The reason that I come to the Gran Turismo 4 forum, rather than sticking to Enthusia territory, is to -- as a GT-fan and disappointed GT4 owner -- promote the very-underappreciated Enthusia, try to educate ignorant people about GT4's physics and gameplay deficiencies, and hope for a better GT5.
This does not mean I'm just here to say "GT4 sucks, buy EPR."
I simply find that there are too many people who say "WTF GT4 is the most realistic game ever STFU Enthusia is a wannabe your a moron." As for the people who acknowledge GT4's faults and play on anyway, more power to ya!
I just hope that doesn't mean you've never given anything else a try.
Besides, why are people complaining about people complaining about GT4 in a thread titled "Disappointed in GT4?"
The main reason I come to GTPlanet is because it is home to the biggest, most active Enthusia forum on the 'net. The reason that I come to the Gran Turismo 4 forum, rather than sticking to Enthusia territory, is to -- as a GT-fan and disappointed GT4 owner -- promote the very-underappreciated Enthusia, try to educate ignorant people about GT4's physics and gameplay deficiencies, and hope for a better GT5.
This does not mean I'm just here to say "GT4 sucks, buy EPR."
I simply find that there are too many people who say "WTF GT4 is the most realistic game ever STFU Enthusia is a wannabe your a moron." As for the people who acknowledge GT4's faults and play on anyway, more power to ya!
I just hope that doesn't mean you've never given anything else a try.Besides, why are people complaining about people complaining about GT4 in a thread titled "Disappointed in GT4?"
Wolfe2x7Hmm...seems like I should've come back here sooner, so that I wouldn't be defending my position a few pages late!
The main reason I come to GTPlanet is because it is home to the biggest, most active Enthusia forum on the 'net. The reason that I come to the Gran Turismo 4 forum, rather than sticking to Enthusia territory, is to -- as a GT-fan and disappointed GT4 owner -- promote the very-underappreciated Enthusia, try to educate ignorant people about GT4's physics and gameplay deficiencies, and hope for a better GT5.
This does not mean I'm just here to say "GT4 sucks, buy EPR."
I simply find that there are too many people who say "WTF GT4 is the most realistic game ever STFU Enthusia is a wannabe your a moron." As for the people who acknowledge GT4's faults and play on anyway, more power to ya!
Besides, why are people complaining about people complaining about GT4 in a thread titled "Disappointed in GT4?"
I havent played Enthusia, but I fully agree with what you are saying. I dont understand why people ignore or seem quite happy for the faults to be there, and are already accepting that they will be there in future games and say thats ok.... Totally beyond me.
I own and play GT4 from time to time although RBR and Forza take up more of my time as all too often something happens like stupid A.I. ruining my race which reminds of GT4's flaws and ruins that particular gaming session.
If the most obvious faults like not having a damage option, a drastically improved A.I. and online play are not fixed in GT5 I will not buy GT5. I am not going to get ripped off by any developer who thinks the can put out any old rehash and I will buy it. If thats what they do think the only way to hurt them is in their pockets.
FooAtari
I think you hit the core of the issue right there. I'd be shocked if PD does not fix such basic things in GT5, but if they don't they'll likely loose many sales... and deserve it.
If I had know of the problems with GT4, I would still have bought it and enjoyed it, but I would have waited until the $20 price level before dishing out my money. But as the old saying goes: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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FooAtari
Very well put! And contained in your mail is the very best reason of all for us to be complaining: If we complain, we may be heard, and either PD or their competition will listen, and will in future give us improved driving games. We're all driving enthusiasts, and we will therefore buy the best driving sim available at the time. PD has left lots of holes in its current product for competitors to exploit. This is exactly why anyone in the business with a passing interest in the future of their product should be reading these threads. In here are the answers in how to make a better GT5, or Enthusia 2.
The louder we shout, the better the next generation of driving products will be.
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FooAtari
I never said that GT4 had more realistic physics at all. Someone claimed that the graphics of GT4 sucked compared to any PC game. I disagreed with that.
A game like GTR has a better physics engine for its type of car, but these games and mods are usually very specialist. GT4 excels at simulating unmodified road cars and doesn't do bad with *a lot* of other cars (I like rally a lot too, like on the gravel of Grand Canyon - the drifting behaviour of the Rally cars is hardly matched even by rally games).
Also, few games have a track like the Nürburgring modelled as precisely and realistically as GT4 has.
Yes, a vast improvement over PS2. I can't believe you don't notice it. What do you do - play GT4 with a DS2, or what? Did the GT2 even have force feedback/wheel support? No, of course not, that was introduced in GT3. Now if you were to say that you don't notice that much difference between playing GT2 with a DS2, and GT4 with a DS2, then I understand you a little bit better. But the way the FF tires slip through a tiny bit sometimes and then how you feel that in your wheel, it's just so incredibly realistic! I do drive (and push) an FF car (I have an Alfa 155 1.8 TS) in real life, so I do know what I'm talking about here. I have also driven a BMW diesel FR (they are all FRs of course), and that too feels very realistic.
One part of GT4 that makes it so convincing is, in fact, that the cars look so real. It's not all eye-candy - your brain takes in 80% of its surroundings through your eyes (assuming of course you can see and all other senses work), so it does in fact matter.
But that's a minor detail - I too could appreciate a less looking game if the driving was spot on, but I've already said what small improvements I would be looking for most: a clutch, even more realistic tire simulation that allows locking wheels (it's there already a bit though, but not visually) and control over tire pressure in game. Anyway, I can live with GT4 because its on the PS2 and an amazing achievement for that machine. Ah well. We'll just have to wait and see what happens with GT5, but that will be aeons away, so lets not think too much about it.
I'm hoping they'll release an online version but I'm worried that they won't - probably all time goes into the PSP version (can hardly believe that is still coming though) and into the PS3 version, which will have to be fully online because the PS3 is designed for online from the ground up.Arwin
ROFL. I do!!!
Without a custom-made chair and steering/braking rig, the wheel is way to uncomfortable for these old bones. I'll take the DS2 or a real car any day!
Also, the cheap vibration algorithm is really bad. In real life I drive by hearing, feel and g-forces as much as by sight. The wheel's vibration is not even close to reality and confuses those that react based on "feel".
I use a wheel only when I have to deal with a difficult high-speed challenge (like I think it was IA-15 license test, full lap with the poorly handling Mercedes on Nurburgring).
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zPhoenix
What?? Can't believe you just said that. The only thing missing is that you don't feel the engine vibrate the wheel in certain high-powered cars, but other than that, I think you're confusing Forza's Force-Shock TM with the Driving Force Pro in GT4. Either that, or you've left all sorts of driving aids on in GT4.
Cheap vibration algorithm? Seriously. Have you even played this game?
Poorly handling, lol. And then you drive a Ferrari in GTR and rave about how cool and realistic, right? Forgive me for becoming highly cynical at this point.
- 45
GT5 will dissapoint... as you keep in mind perfection or absolutes.
What about atmosphere, living and breathing...not from a wide screen in a living room when playing GT4.
Good Film directors can put you in that kind of sphere though.
The display will need to take a sudden leap in technology... that technology exists but, they fob us of with plasma because your/we're not worthy or ready for Hologram......in any form.
GT5 will dissapoint as long as the display technology stays stagnant.
Still a beautiful game - Who Feels It , Knows It.
What about atmosphere, living and breathing...not from a wide screen in a living room when playing GT4.
Good Film directors can put you in that kind of sphere though.
The display will need to take a sudden leap in technology... that technology exists but, they fob us of with plasma because your/we're not worthy or ready for Hologram......in any form.
GT5 will dissapoint as long as the display technology stays stagnant.
Still a beautiful game - Who Feels It , Knows It.
Arwin
I would generally agree with that. GT4 was failry unique until Forza came along, and in a way still is as Forza doesnt really have many of the really small "minis" cars or everday cars that GT4 has.
But I still feel that GT4's physics failed in two fundemantal areas. Understeer/Oversteer and Suspension...
Only other game I can think of is Grand Prix Legends, but its modeled on the 1960's version so its hard to compare.
Having an FFB wheel, which I do have, doesnt nesesarily(sp) mean that the actual car handling physics are any different, just that you get to feel it through the controller.
Maybe its the way I have things setup but I didnt think the FFB in GT4 was that subtle comapred to games I have played on the PC. I dont really feel slides in the steering for example....
In Grand Prix Legends on the PC I could feel the slide before I saw it, I was able to drive much quicker with a wheel because of this and it vastly imrpoved the gameplay. The DFP also improves GT4 but I dont get the same feeling I got on the PC in other sims.
One part of GT4 that makes it so convincing is, in fact, that the cars look so real. It's not all eye-candy - your brain takes in 80% of its surroundings through your eyes (assuming of course you can see and all other senses work), so it does in fact matter.
It is a major acheivment but in the wrong areas. I just rate improved physics and gameplay enhancements such as online play and adding more setup options far higher than the graphics. I would have been happy with a game that looked like GT3 but vsatly improved the gameplay.
Thats why I find Forza and overall better game, becuase it fills in all the blanks that GT missed out.
Now that GT has competition hopefully we will see two excellent sims in the next gen.
Greycap
And my 318i is a mass-produced 4-wheeled automobile powered by an internal combustion engine, just like the Ford Model T was many years ago. Does that mean my car is a copy of the Model T? One could argue, "yes, it does." Does that mean Ford now makes the best cars, or that we should all thank Ford for our Hondas or BMWs or Hyundais? Many people would disagree. I don't mean to be rude, but it doesn't matter who created the genre, the genre is a genre now, and we must compare the latest and greatest from all competing developers, equally.
Also, there are people here who keep on going on about "no game can be perfect, GT5 will be just as disappointing, I'd like to see you go out and make a better game," etc. Now, I don't necessarily agree that all of the suggestions/requests here are necessary, or even plausible on a mainstream racing game. But there is still one thing that we should all be concerned with here, and there are others who will agree with me on this -- GT4 failed to provide realistic driving physics, and failed to improve the core gameplay mechanics.
Things have changed since 2001, when GT3 came out; GT3, unrealistic as it was, held the title of "the sim king." Any PC simulations worth their salt were limited to specific racecars, and mostly featured mildly impressive, numbers-based physics that were only marginally better than PD's then-latest masterpiece.
The bar has now been raised. Live for Speed, a racing game developed privately by three english guys (only one of whom is a programmer), features a physics model that is arguably better than any racing game of any kind, console or PC, and, though lacking manufacturer licenses, features roadcars ala the GT series. GTR, Simbin's first foray into the retail computergames world, is impressive, but fails to match LFS with its driving model, and only features racecars. Needless to say, however, it's a more realistic sim than GT3. Richard Burns Rally is another unforgivingly realistic sim. Even average, every-day racing games like Mercedes Benz World Racing or Rallisport Challenge 2 have started featuring impressive driving dynamics that exceed the standard set by GT3.
What does PD do in response? They give us GT3 with slightly prettier graphics and the same driving model, with the understeer and counter-steer effects jacked up, the limited-slip effects removed, and a few gimmicks, like the photo mode, B-Spec driver, and some "tweaks" to the gameplay such as the ridiculously unrealistic seesaw-like nose dive under braking. Of course, there's the incredible 700+ cars available, which can be cut by nearly 200 if you exclude the 3D-model repeats and the cars that the game won't really let you drive.
While the disappointment of this was still sinking in, Konami and Microsoft stepped up to the plate with Enthusia and Forza.
Enthusia is more realistic than anything out there, with the close, yet noticable exception of Live for Speed. Tack on the fact that Enthusia has a GT-like selection of cars -- as opposed to Live for Speed's generic knock-offs -- and you've got yourself a winner. The only problem is that some odd choices in gameplay and menu design render Enthusia as somewhat difficult to deal with, and no better than GT4 when it comes to anything other than physics.
Forza's driving model is an utter joke, as are its renditions of real tracks; especially the Nürburgring. However, it has plenty of cars to choose from, it features visual and mechanical customization, there are plenty of real-world tracks to romp around on, and Forza is the only game out of the big three that allows you to play online. So, Forza is a better "game," even though that's all it is. A game.
GTR, RBR, and various other games upped the ante on physics. LFS and Enthusia hit homeruns. Forza and the PGR series have shown us that you don't need realism to make a great GT clone.
GT4, in my opinion, fell way short. I was the very first one at my local EB to purchase GT4. I think I'll rent GT5 first...
I am using a borrowed Logitech wheel. By cheap vibration algorithm I mean that as far as I can tell "it just shakes". I don't feel it pull left or right according to the imperfection of the road, or how you hit a bump. In a real car I do. Anything less than proper reactions in the steering wheel is just "glitter" and completely useless for driving. Maybe the wheel I borrowed is an older model? If it were, would the latest model give you accurate response on the wheel related to what you hit with the wheel, or be the same?Arwin
I think you might be confusing me with someone else. You should check your facts before you rant. I never drove a Ferrari, and never used GTR... I tried to use the demo but it would not run on my PC.Arwin
Any comment of mine is strictly based on my experience with GT3, GT4, real cars, and my understanding of today's software industry and what is "par for the course". And yes, I loved GT3 but I am very disappointed about what PD did with GT4. I am impressed by the coding quality (I have seen not even 1 serious bug), but several design choices were (purely in my opinion) dumb, lazy, reckless, and/or intentional deficiencies, and they have all been mentioned before here or in other threads. But since I know you will argue this, I'll give you an example: the LAN gaming capability could have been turned into a basic but very viable internet gaming capability with hardly any extra effort (my guess... 1 man-day of coding).
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- ham_vet001
GT4 is a little bit disappointing. I first played a GT game in August 2002 with GT2. Man, it was so addictive. Thanks to that game, I got interested in cars, motor racing and gaming. I will always have good memories of that game. I still have it, and from time to time I play it on my PS2. In December 2003, I got a PS2 and moved on to GT3. It was quite a bit of fun, but I spoilt the experience for myself by following FAQs from the net. 
Many of the races were really boring, but in spite of that, I finished it in June 2005. (I had to start the game over twice: once because I was doing really badly, and a second time because the game file got corrupted the day after I got my first F090/S 
.)
I'm now playing GT4 and for the first couple of weeks it was very fun. But now I'm 62.8% complete and the races in GT Mode are getting boring (By the way, I started with 100,000 extra credits.) In the months leading to GT4, I wasn't looking forward to online play, since I don't have broadband. But I was looking forward to driving Group C/Prototype Cars, amazing graphics and better AI. I didn't get good AI, I got my prototypes but I found the graphics just a bit underwhelming (there's aliasing, background flicker and the screen vibrates whenever there are several cars moving at once. Otherwise, its perfect). The mission modes are fantastic. They require flawless driving technique and the taste of victory is very sweet. I wish that they would have brought back the one lap time trials from GT3.
But anyway, the biggest problem with GT4 isn't very good as a racing game, but is fabulous as a hot-lapping/sandbox game. Also, the experience isn't as fresh as it was with GT2. If you played any of the GT games as a newbie with no experience, you would have the time of your life. But the second, third or fourth time around, it just isn't as much fun as it used to be. So all PD need to do for GT5 is to make the experience feel new. Instead of just honing and refining, they should add more new stuff to make it fun (mission mode is a good start). Or they could just make the AI better and put online play.
Anyway, I'll be still plugging away with GT4 (I really want that black F1!
)
Many of the races were really boring, but in spite of that, I finished it in June 2005. (I had to start the game over twice: once because I was doing really badly, and a second time because the game file got corrupted the day after I got my first F090/S .)I'm now playing GT4 and for the first couple of weeks it was very fun. But now I'm 62.8% complete and the races in GT Mode are getting boring (By the way, I started with 100,000 extra credits.) In the months leading to GT4, I wasn't looking forward to online play, since I don't have broadband. But I was looking forward to driving Group C/Prototype Cars, amazing graphics and better AI. I didn't get good AI, I got my prototypes but I found the graphics just a bit underwhelming (there's aliasing, background flicker and the screen vibrates whenever there are several cars moving at once. Otherwise, its perfect). The mission modes are fantastic. They require flawless driving technique and the taste of victory is very sweet. I wish that they would have brought back the one lap time trials from GT3.
But anyway, the biggest problem with GT4 isn't very good as a racing game, but is fabulous as a hot-lapping/sandbox game. Also, the experience isn't as fresh as it was with GT2. If you played any of the GT games as a newbie with no experience, you would have the time of your life. But the second, third or fourth time around, it just isn't as much fun as it used to be. So all PD need to do for GT5 is to make the experience feel new. Instead of just honing and refining, they should add more new stuff to make it fun (mission mode is a good start). Or they could just make the AI better and put online play.
Anyway, I'll be still plugging away with GT4 (I really want that black F1!
)Wolfe2x7
I pretty much agree with everything you said except this ^
If you are not noticing a marked improvement in the physics model, then i don't think you are all that well qualified to appraise any of the physics models in the other games you bandied about. Admittedly, you are probably trying to simplify what you feel are the improvements in the model, but given the rest of the response (not short
) i am a tad disappointed you failed to go into any more detail.P.S. How good are the old 80s BMWs (i have an '88 325i - absolute gold!)
Ezz777I pretty much agree with everything you said except this ^
If you are not noticing a marked improvement in the physics model, then i don't think you are all that well qualified to appraise any of the physics models in the other games you bandied about. Admittedly, you are probably trying to simplify what you feel are the improvements in the model, but given the rest of the response (not short
P.S. How good are the old 80s BMWs (i have an '88 325i - absolute gold!)
I never said it wasn't an improvement, though if you were to ask me, "Hey Wolfe2x7, are GT4's physics better than GT3's?" I would imediately say "No."
GT3, though certainly no more realistic, was just more fun. GT4, as I already stated in the longer post above, took GT3's physics and tweaked them, adding more understeer, and playing with the effects of countersteer (in GT3 countersteer was too weak, and in GT4 it is too strong; both lead to easy spins, but for opposite reasons). I was also noting that I think GT3 did a better job with limited-slip differentials.
How about if I explained that GT4's physics model, just like GT3's, seems to be based around car versus pavement, as opposed to car versus running gear versus pavement, which is what Enthusia and Live for Speed use?
In GT3/4, X = move forward, Square = halt forward motion, Left/right = rotate car left/right. This is what you get when you simplify it all down to the core mechanics. Tack on some "tire grip" values, some calculated bodyroll movements, differential simulation, and several other complications, and the physics become more realistic. But they're still limited by the core functions, which don't follow the physics behind an actual car.
In LFS/EPR, "X" = engine rpm's, which transfer power through the transmission to the appropriate drive wheels, as determined by the drivetrain type and differential being used. "Square" = the deceleration of the wheels' rotations. Left/right = rotate front wheels. In these two games, the inputs given to the car by your controller or wheel follow the same logic and basic mechanics behind a real car. The bodyroll, nosedive, tailsquat, and overall weight transfer of these two sims is relatively unregulated and uncalculated, being the result of a mass suspended on four points, each providing a certain amount of "upward" force. Tire grip becomes more important as the power being applied to a certain wheel, braking force being applied to a certain wheel, and the amount of weight being carried by a certain corner of the car all play a role.
To put it very, very simply, GT3/4 is kinda like playing with an RC car with your hands, moving it and turning it as you see fit. EPR and LFS are like using the remote controller to control the car's power, braking, and steering, letting gravity and physics figure out the rest.
P.S. My BMW is actually the same generation 3-series as yours (E30). The previous gen (E21) ended in '83/'84. Since yours is an '88, it might have the newer taillights and bumpers, but otherwise my car is just like yours, albeit with a 1.8L inline-4 instead of a 2.5L six.
And to answer your question, it's awesome. 👍 👍
- 23,800
- Philippines
Wolfe2x7How about if I explained that GT4's physics model, just like GT3's, seems to be based around car versus pavement, as opposed to car versus running gear versus pavement, which is what Enthusia and Live for Speed use?
In GT3/4, X = move forward, Square = halt forward motion, Left/right = rotate car left/right. This is what you get when you simplify it all down to the core mechanics. Tack on some "tire grip" values, some calculated bodyroll movements, differential simulation, and several other complications, and the physics become more realistic. But they're still limited by the core functions, which don't follow the physics behind an actual car.
In LFS/EPR, "X" = engine rpm's, which transfer power through the transmission to the appropriate drive wheels, as determined by the drivetrain type and differential being used. "Square" = the deceleration of the wheels' rotations. Left/right = rotate front wheels. In these two games, the inputs given to the car by your controller or wheel follow the same logic and basic mechanics behind a real car. The bodyroll, nosedive, tailsquat, and overall weight transfer of these two sims is relatively unregulated and uncalculated, being the result of a mass suspended on four points, each providing a certain amount of "upward" force. Tire grip becomes more important as the power being applied to a certain wheel, braking force being applied to a certain wheel, and the amount of weight being carried by a certain corner of the car all play a role.
To put it very, very simply, GT3/4 is kinda like playing with an RC car with your hands, moving it and turning it as you see fit. EPR and LFS are like using the remote controller to control the car's power, braking, and steering, letting gravity and physics figure out the rest.
That first one, I agree with... GT4 is mostly car vs. pavement, with running gear being nothing more than a tack-on/modification of the variable qualities of the car. Having modifications and variable conditions merely alters the reaction of the car by "X" percentage... even though the initial reaction parameters may be pre-calculated. But GT4 does treat each corner of the car separately, even if the reaction of the suspension geometry is NOT as detailed as LFS or EPR.
In 80% of driving, this feels accurate enough. But if you're a stickler for accuracy, granted, it's not as good.
But the last paragraph in the quote, no. GT4 is exactly like playing with an RC car with a controller... most RC cars have an oversimplification of suspension geometry, gearing and tire grip (at RC levels, tire grip is just way different)... and that's what you complain about in GT4. By your analogy, EPR and LFS would be the expensive gas models with "real" suspensions, more weight, and treaded tires.
@zPhoenix: I use a DS2 at home, but I've had the occassion to run GT4 on a full cabinet with a DFP1. And the force feedback does kick it from side to side instead of just buzzing. It's enough to force you to hold on to the wheel when driving down a bumpy straight. GT4 works best with stuff that is designed for it.
nikyThat first one, I agree with... GT4 is mostly car vs. pavement, with running gear being nothing more than a tack-on/modification of the variable qualities of the car. Having modifications and variable conditions merely alters the reaction of the car by "X" percentage... even though the initial reaction parameters may be pre-calculated. But GT4 does treat each corner of the car separately, even if the reaction of the suspension geometry is NOT as detailed as LFS or EPR.
In 80% of driving, this feels accurate enough. But if you're a stickler for accuracy, granted, it's not as good.
But the last paragraph in the quote, no. GT4 is exactly like playing with an RC car with a controller... most RC cars have an oversimplification of suspension geometry, gearing and tire grip (at RC levels, tire grip is just way different)... and that's what you complain about in GT4. By your analogy, EPR and LFS would be the expensive gas models with "real" suspensions, more weight, and treaded tires.
Hey, someone actually understood and agreed with what I was babbling about!
Yes, GT4 features "4-wheel independent simulation," but it seems the game gets confused too easily, and tires will lose grip or retain grip in situations where it is awkward for them to do so.
Anyway, as far as GT4 being accurate enough 80% of the time, I suppose that's true, as long as that last 20% includes drifting, cornering at the limit (understeer), heavy braking, weight transferring, and donuts.
Finally, regarding the RC analogy, yeah, simple RC cars are simplified and very different from an actual car, but I was referring more to the fact that GT4 is artificial and pre-determined, as opposed to relying off of scientific, physical principles.
It's kinda like X-Plane and Microsoft Flight Simulator. X-Plane is much more realistic and based upon real-world physics, but its graphics and content can't match Microsoft's flight-sim giant, so MSFS garners many, many more sales. That sounds familiar... 💡
- 23,800
- Philippines
Wolfe2x7Hey, someone actually understood and agreed with what I was babbling about!
Yes, GT4 features "4-wheel independent simulation," but it seems the game gets confused too easily, and tires will lose grip or retain grip in situations where it is awkward for them to do so.
Anyway, as far as GT4 being accurate enough 80% of the time, I suppose that's true, as long as that last 20% includes drifting, cornering at the limit (understeer), heavy braking, weight transferring, and donuts.
Finally, regarding the RC analogy, yeah, simple RC cars are simplified and very different from an actual car, but I was referring more to the fact that GT4 is artificial and pre-determined, as opposed to relying off of scientific, physical principles.
It's kinda like X-Plane and Microsoft Flight Simulator. X-Plane is much more realistic and based upon real-world physics, but its graphics and content can't match Microsoft's flight-sim giant, so MSFS garners many, many more sales. That sounds familiar... 💡
Finally eye-to-eye...
First off I think that GT4 is a really great sim. I am only at about 30% and I'm still having alot of fun with it. I think PD has made a good solid base from which to work from. So here are my suggestions and I hope your reading this PD!
1. seperate qualifying from practice.
2. improve ai for God's sake!
3. get rid of the penalties and the missions
4. more cars on the track! we need at least 16 or more to make it interesting!
5. a flagging systems would be awesome! so if some poor guy goes off track and can't make it back (gets stuck in the kitty litter) the yellow comes out and the feild bunches up again. Black flags for running into other cars, etc...
6. a weight "reward" system like they use in the Speed World Challenge. If you win, you get weight added to your car. They use this to great effect in real life and I find the World Challenge one of the funnest and closest races to watch! (I live 4 miles from Laguna Seca, lucky me )
7. spec racers! like the miata. cars you can't modify except the settings so it's all about skill and not who has the deepest pockets
8. if your going to give us cool electric cars like the nike and toyota formula thing, let us use them in a race! the Environmental Cup or something.
I know it sounds like I'm dissatisfied but I'm not. I would just like to see closer racing and more restrictions to gain that means. Did anyone play Sports Car GT for the PC that came out a few years back? I could not get enough of it! I still play it today! Close racing, damage, smarter ai (not by much tho). It was a more simple game but I feel it was funner. I truely hope GT5 goes this direction!
-Rich
1. seperate qualifying from practice.
2. improve ai for God's sake!
3. get rid of the penalties and the missions
4. more cars on the track! we need at least 16 or more to make it interesting!
5. a flagging systems would be awesome! so if some poor guy goes off track and can't make it back (gets stuck in the kitty litter) the yellow comes out and the feild bunches up again. Black flags for running into other cars, etc...
6. a weight "reward" system like they use in the Speed World Challenge. If you win, you get weight added to your car. They use this to great effect in real life and I find the World Challenge one of the funnest and closest races to watch! (I live 4 miles from Laguna Seca, lucky me
) 7. spec racers! like the miata. cars you can't modify except the settings so it's all about skill and not who has the deepest pockets
8. if your going to give us cool electric cars like the nike and toyota formula thing, let us use them in a race! the Environmental Cup or something.
I know it sounds like I'm dissatisfied but I'm not. I would just like to see closer racing and more restrictions to gain that means. Did anyone play Sports Car GT for the PC that came out a few years back? I could not get enough of it! I still play it today! Close racing, damage, smarter ai (not by much tho). It was a more simple game but I feel it was funner. I truely hope GT5 goes this direction!
-Rich
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Wolfe2x7Anyway, as far as GT4 being accurate enough 80% of the time, I suppose that's true, as long as that last 20% includes drifting, cornering at the limit (understeer), heavy braking, weight transferring, and donuts.
Wolfe, bet you just knew I'd pop up here!
While you know that I would not argue with regrad to GT4's poor performance in the areas of donuts (and handbrake turns) I can't agree with you in the other areas.
As you know well I have tested GT4's cornering limits on a range of tyre types and the on the limit behaviour is not far removed from the very cronic understeer that you will experience on a track (which is totally differnt to the road). Ads far as the limits themselves go GT4 is almost spot in terms of peak lateral Gs in the BMW M3.
Drifting is still the subject of much debate, while you say it is far to difficult, a good number of members over in the Drifting forum would disagree iwth you, and I still maintain that the interface you use is a factor here.
Heavy braking is not 100% perfect in GT4 (but its not in any game I have tested) as you do not have the ability to turn off the ABS. Braking distances themselves however are again very close to reality.
Weight transfer is once again a subjective area and the only factor I can refer to here is my own experience in the motor industry, the effects of weight transfer to me are well represented in GT4, again they are not 100% perfect because currently nothing is.
While GT4 does have its failing, so does also every other game in the market place, the only consule games I would consider close are RBR and Enthusia and they still have issues with them.
RBR actual has few faults, the main issue being the ease at which cars roll and the tarmac physics are not quite on par with the gravel ones.
Enthusia has (as I have said before) an excellent low speed physics model, but high yaw angle drifts are far to easy to catch and control and the high speed physics, particularly with regard the pure race cars are quite poor. Additionally understeer is to mild and too easy to recover from, particularly in FWD models.
Just my opinions
Regards
Scaff
Scaff
Um, I posted that in September...
Scaff
I agree that the understeer limits themselves aren't that far removed from real life (although banked surfaces are a definite exception). However, I still stand by my opinion that escaping understeer is much too difficult in GT4. It's as though you cross an "understeer event horizon," from which there is no escape, until you go off course and hit a wall.
Scaff
Well, I have the DFP now, and drifting in GT4 is no easier than before. Maybe I just suck at drifting, but if that were true then my 318i would be totalled and in a junk yard, and I wouldn't really enjoy playing Enthusia.
Scaff
It's been 3 months since I posted that, and I honestly don't know why I included "heavy braking" in that list. Maybe I was talking about the excessive nose dive? If you compare the movement of the bumper cam with the movement of the car from the outside cam, you'll see that there's something really wrong.
Scaff
The cars in GT4 bob and roll, but that's about it. Also, that bobbing and rolling is sickeningly smooth, artificial, and slow, and doesn't really feel like a car at all. The effects of weight transfer on drifting, cornering, and such are absent completely, as far as I can see.
Scaff
I tried RBR for the PC and I just couldn't play it. The poor sense of speed ruined any realism the physics were trying to support, so I kept on overspeeding into trees and such, thinking I was going half the speed I really was.
I still disagree that the high yaw angle drifts are too easy to catch, especially now that I have the DFP, and I still disagree that understeer is too mild and easy to recover from. However, the R class cars are just unrealistic. Period.
What it all boils down to for me is that GT4 just refuses to listen, like a cranky child.
"Hey GT4, let's weight-transfer into a drift!"
*whines* "Nooooooooooo." *understeer*
"Hey GT4, let's lift off of the throttle to induce trailing-throttle oversteer and fix this understeer!"
*whines* "Nooooooooooo." *understeer* *crash*
"Hey GT4, at this upcoming wide, sweeping corner, let's mash the throttle mid-turn and kick out the tail!"
*yells* "....fine!!" *oversteer*
"Alright! Now let's dial in some counterst--"
*yells* "NO!!" *spin* *crash*
CAMAROBOY69
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My biggest disappointment with GT4 was the fact that it wasn't online. It just doesnt feel realistic playing against an AI that always takes the same line. Thats my only major complaint. Any other small complaints I have are probably already mentioned.
I got to 50% in GT4 and became completely bored, especially since Forza was online and you could customize your own cars.
If someone figures out how to make hybrids for GT4 then I will be all over this game again.
I got to 50% in GT4 and became completely bored, especially since Forza was online and you could customize your own cars.
If someone figures out how to make hybrids for GT4 then I will be all over this game again.
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The sad thing is that the programming they did to enable LAN games is very similar and even a little harder than what it would have taken to enable very basic online gaming.CAMAROBOY69
It is easier to program the following than to do the brodcast/detect algorithm used by the LAN option:
- One user starts a game (any game or program), and is aware of his/her IP address.
- Other users join in by typing the IP address.
- It would even be trivial to remember the IP settings and whether you are the host or joiner, as one goes from one race to the next unless you exit out of the multiplayer area.
I think they did not include online games on purpose. Probably because they wanted something fancy when they hit the road, or because they wanted to charge us again for very little new functionality. I guess we'll find out by how much depth the online release will have.
