Gran Turismo A comparison across the series (part 2 added)

Alfaholic · Sep 12, 2005

Arwin
I'm starting to think we just have some confusion on how indicate what a clutch does.

I use the term thus, rightly or wrongly:

A clutch is engaged when the clutchplates are in contact. Thus the driver is not touching the clutch pedal, and if he depresses the accelerator, the car will accelerate in a direction appropriate to the gear he is in, assuming a) it has available traction b) it has wheels attached to the driven axle and is not standing on bricks and c) he is in one of the available forward or reverse gears, and not in neutral.

If he pushes the clutch pedal to the floor, he separates the clutchplates. I call this disengaging the clutch.

So Arwin and I agree. Apologies if I have it all back to front, it wouldn't be the first time!

Wolfe · Sep 12, 2005

Scaff
In regard to the onramp, and just to close this one down. The 2nd hairpin at Grand Valley is far tighter that the onramp in the photo, which would explain your issue with the cornering speeds.

That's what I figured, as I was writing my last post.

Scaff
I still think that the understeer physics for GT4 are well developed and resonably accurate, part of my problem with the early GT games (and even GT3) was that the level of understeer was just far, far to low.

Yes, the cornering abilities of GT1, 2, and 3 cars were crazy.

Scaff
The type of understeer most commonly causing a problem in GT4 is that caused by overusing the front tyres. Now while it is relatively straightforward to correct this with a lift of the throttle if you have only overused the fronts by a small degree (true in GT4 and the real world). However, once you overload the fronts by a larger degree (60%+ approx), you get understeer of a much greater magnitune and a lift is not going to solve the problem as it will not reduce the workload on the tyres enough.

Now one thing that years of work on proving grounds has shown is that the difference between small and large levels of over use is a matter of a few mph or degrees of steering angle.

One thing that does make a difference is which 'control method' you use, I find that the DS2 makes it quite difficult to accuratly modulate the throttle, steering and brakes, which makes the possiability of over using tyres even easier.

The DFP helps this to a very large degree as you can be much more subtle with your inputs.

I know exactly what you are talking about, and have plenty of real-world experience with this, because I live in Wisconsin, and we get snow.

However, this "lift-proof" understeer occurs when you maintain the steering angle that caused the understeer in the first place. Also, the way GT4 simulates this terrible understeer is quite inaccurate -- instead of simply lacking grip with the front tires and pushing forward, the car "seizes up" as if it had a heartattack, and slides at a uniform speed, slightly sideways.

Furthering this problem is the way GT4 simulates steering input. GT4, like many driving games designed to be used with a controller, "second-guesses" your steering input, modifying it based on your speed so that you don't have to nudge the analog stick ever so slightly just to avoid massive understeer. It's also tweaked in such a way so that it doesn't completely keep you from getting into trouble. However, in these cases of "severe understeer" that we are talking about, the game refuses to help you reduce your steering angle when you lift off of the throttle, forcing you to let go of the stick and wait for your car to start traveling in a straight line, or find the perfect point on the analog stick where the understeer will stop.

I don't have much experience with GT4 and the DFP, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've tried the DFP with GT3, and despite the fact that you're using a wheel, the game STILL feels the need to second-guess you...!! I wouldn't be surprised at all if GT4 was exactly the same. The subtle control that the DFP provides is probably enough to escape the severe understeer, but it was very frustrating to try to drift in GT3 and have the game decide "oh, I don't think you should be countersteering that much..." *spin* :irked:

I imagine GT4 has similar issues.

Scaff
In regard to the oversteer side of things, what GT4 has got right is that for the road cars you do experience a degree of understeer, before oversteer kicks in. Which for a road car (or the vast majority) is correct, its also very much depends on the car and track conditions. With only a few exceptions the tracks in GT4 are all totally dry and give the impression of a high track temp, in these conditions a car such as an M3 will be reluctant to let the back stepout of its own accord, and grip will then tend to recover in a very sharp manner.

Yes, GT4 is correct, as far as most road cars exhibiting some understeer before going into a powerslide. However, other than countersteer situations and fishtailing, it is too difficult to spin when you ham-fistedly throw a car into a corner with the throttle fully open. The car just doesn't want to rotate.

Also, regardless of whether or not a car such as the M3 is biased towards understeer, as soon as the tail kicks out, the front wheels are following along for the ride, providing only minimal influence to the path and angle of the drift. It is only when the drift loses its momentum that the front wheels will suddenly grab and throw the car back around, possibly creating a fish-tailing situation. GT4 seems to think that as soon as a car countersteers, it can imediately pull itself, with great force, out of the drift.

Scaff
Now, don't get me wrong I still think that GT4 has a long way to go with regard to its physics engine, particularly with regard to very low speed manouvers such as do-nuts and handbrake turns.

I would however dispute that GT3 was closer to reality in terms of the overall engine, and personally I like the 'feel' that GT4 gives you of the car working, particularly in regard to weight transfer and the work that the tyres are being asked to do.

I did not claim that GT3 was closer to reality. What I was arguing is that GT3's flaws were easier to swallow, and that overall -- physics-wise -- GT3 was just a better game. Sometimes I think GT4 was designed in cooperation with the DMV..."IF YOU DRIVE FAST, TURN HARD, OR FLOOR THE THROTTLE, YOUR CAR WILL UNDERSTEER OR SPIN AND CRASH, AND YOU WILL DIE, SO DRIVE SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY!!!!!!!" :scared:

An exaggeration, yes, but an expression of my frustration with this game's refusal to do anything fun. I drive a car almost every day in real life; I know for a fact that driving is supposed to be fun. :ouch:

Anyway, you didn't respond to my point on how GT4 goes about simulating driving (car versus pavement as opposed to car versus running gear versus pavement)...as I said above, that's probably the biggest reason why I think GT4 is so unrealistic and a chore to play.

SavageEvil · Sep 12, 2005

This is really nice, makes me want to test out more cars in GT4, since im always on N2's and N3's depending on the type of car.

Now if you all did not notice, steering input in GT4 is relative to what you use. If you use the digital pad for steering, you will be getting a somewhat simulated steering(it's slower), using the DS2 analogue sticks, they are a little faster than the digital pad, but also faster in wheel movement. Now After playing with the DFP, I must say, that thing really gives you a feel for driving, much more like a car. It gives you a sense of control/loss of control much better than the controller.

You should really make use of the DFP for testing things out as you have far greater input control, only downside, the auto centering of the wheel is slow. Also turn off all the DFP wheel assists, they handicap the control for you.

Tornado · Sep 12, 2005

niky
As to Toronado's question, I have seen/experienced spinning in MR's due to rotational inertia. Maybe you haven't seen this merely because of another of GT's quirks... super-sticky racing tires. On road tires or worn tires, MRs of all types will spin if you push the rear end too far in a turn, and I've seen/done it on the F1, too.

I have seen it on cars with worn tires. Seeing the replay of the Nurburgring 4-Hour race will usually show you that. What I'm saying is, with shorter wheelbase MR cars, shouldn't they be alot less stable on banked roads? Now, barring 3 examples (Renault 5 Turbo, Lancia Stratos and Lotus Elise Sport 190), I've noticed that many cars similar to the car in question (Renault Clio Sport V6 Phase 1) will not lose traction in the rear unless you delibrately make it do so or unless you use economy tires. Now, I believe that it should send the rearend of the car right around into the wall if you cook the turn (for this example, the near 180 degree banked turn #1 in High Speed Ring Reverse). All it seems to do is result in understeer. It doesn't make any sense to me, because based on my admitedly limited knowledge of suspension geometry, stiffer springs should make for quick turn in and oversteer at the limit. The Renault is definetaly a stiffly sprung car, also being one with stiff anti-roll bars. Yet I cannot get it to overtseer on banked turns. The only reson I am pushing this is because a banked turn, I believe, puts more pressure on the tires of the car due to the increased downward force the banked turns creates, which usually results in rear tire slippage in Rear-Wheel-Drive cars.

Scaff · Sep 13, 2005

Wolfe2x7
I know exactly what you are talking about, and have plenty of real-world experience with this, because I live in Wisconsin, and we get snow. However, this "lift-proof" understeer occurs when you maintain the steering angle that caused the understeer in the first place. Also, the way GT4 simulates this terrible understeer is quite inaccurate -- instead of simply lacking grip with the front tires and pushing forward, the car "seizes up" as if it had a heartattack, and slides at a uniform speed, slightly sideways.

I don't find the understeer on GT4 to be lift-off proof, as long as the understeer is not severe. As understeer is caused by more than just the steering angle alone, then in very severe cases you will need to reduce the steering angle also.

With regard to GT4 and how it represents understeer by pushing the car sideways and forward this is acurate representation of real world understeer.

The assumption that understeer is just caused by the fronts lacking grip is only part of the story, for a more detailed explenation of under and oversteer I'm going to refer to 'Going faster - Mastering the art of race driving' by The Skip Barber Racing School.

Redefining Attitude
Up to now we definged understeer and oversteer in termsof which end of the car 'slides' first. While this is an OK conceptual way of describing the sensation it not really true. A car does not need to slide to exhibit understeer or oversteer. A tyre does not have to be at its cornering limit to encounter slip angles.

Even at low sppeds and cornering loads, cars develop slip angles at the font and rear tyres. Consequently the car as a whole devlops a yaw angle. At low loads the the slip and yaw angles are small, but they're there. A more accurate way of defining a cars cornering attitude at both low speeds and high is to compare the slip angles of the front and rear tyres.

Skip then goes on to use this to describe different attitudes a car can take.

A 100 foot radius arc is used, with a Yaw of 8 degrees required to travel the arc.

Understeer
Front Slip Angle - 14 degrees
Rear Slip Angle - 6 degrees
Yaw - 4 degrees

The yaw of 4 degrees is lower than that of the yaw required to travel the arc and the car wil push forward and wide.

Oversteer
Front Slip Angle - 10 degrees
Rear Slip Angle - 16 degrees
Yaw - 14 degrees

The yaw of 14 degrees is greater that that required to travel the arc and the car will take a line that is too tight. If the Rear Slip Angle increases the Yaw will increase dramatically and the car will over rotate (Power Oversteer), however if the fronts have also exceeded their Slip Angle then the car will push wide while over rotating (Power Understeer).

Neutral
Front Slip Angle - 10 degrees
Rear Slip Angle - 10 degrees
Yaw - 8 degrees

The yaw of the car matches the yaw required to travel the arc.

Given the above the I find the GT4 sensation of running forward and to the side to be quite accurate, it also explains why with severe understeer (a very high front slip angle in relation to the rear slip angle) can require a reduction in throttle and steering angle to correct.

Is the GT4 simulation 100% accurate? I personally very much doubt it, but given the PS2 hardware limitations, a true 100% simulation is not likely.

Wolfe2x7
Furthering this problem is the way GT4 simulates steering input. GT4, like many driving games designed to be used with a controller, "second-guesses" your steering input, modifying it based on your speed so that you don't have to nudge the analog stick ever so slightly just to avoid massive understeer. It's also tweaked in such a way so that it doesn't completely keep you from getting into trouble. However, in these cases of "severe understeer" that we are talking about, the game refuses to help you reduce your steering angle when you lift off of the throttle, forcing you to let go of the stick and wait for your car to start traveling in a straight line, or find the perfect point on the analog stick where the understeer will stop.

GT4 does 'assist' steering when using the DS2, the DFP or even the original DF is a much better option, but I will cover that below.

The bit on Severe Understeer and throttle/steering input I hope I have covered above.

Wolfe2x7
I don't have much experience with GT4 and the DFP, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've tried the DFP with GT3, and despite the fact that you're using a wheel, the game STILL feels the need to second-guess you...!! I wouldn't be surprised at all if GT4 was exactly the same. The subtle control that the DFP provides is probably enough to escape the severe understeer, but it was very frustrating to try to drift in GT3 and have the game decide "oh, I don't think you should be countersteering that much..." *spin* I imagine GT4 has similar issues.

The DFP (and original DF) are both very different to using the DS2, I've never felt that the DFP has the issues you are describing. Use of the DFP on GT3 should not be taken as a good reference, a lot of were initially disapointed with the DFP on GT3, but you have to remember that GT3 was never designed to accept the 900 degree input from the DFP.

Wolfe2x7
Yes, GT4 is correct, as far as most road cars exhibiting some understeer before going into a powerslide. However, other than countersteer situations and fishtailing, it is too difficult to spin when you ham-fistedly throw a car into a corner with the throttle fully open. The car just doesn't want to rotate.

Also, regardless of whether or not a car such as the M3 is biased towards understeer, as soon as the tail kicks out, the front wheels are following along for the ride, providing only minimal influence to the path and angle of the drift. It is only when the drift loses its momentum that the front wheels will suddenly grab and throw the car back around, possibly creating a fish-tailing situation. GT4 seems to think that as soon as a car countersteers, it can imediately pull itself, with great force, out of the drift.

I can't agree that the front tyres tyres of a car only provide minimal influence to the path and angle of a drift.

As was covered above oversteer is when the rear tyres are at a greater slip angle to the front tyres. In the relationship between the two the front tyres are the ones that will be closest to or within the optimum slip angle for traction. As a result they will be the tyres that have the greatest effect on the direction the car is trying to go.

The rears (through the throttle in all but FWD cars) have the major say in the slip angle the rear tyres are at in relation to the fronts. They can increase or decrease the yaw angle easily, and by doing so control the size length and duration of the oversteer.

Weight transfer will also have a say in what occurs here, as will the inertia that builds as yaw angles increase.

Its this inertia that causes a lot of problems with recovery with the DS2 (its still not easy with the DFP), once you have caught the oversteer and stopped the rotation you are still going to have to control the recovery. With the 'assisted' steering of the DS2 it can be very hard to control the rate at which you unwind the steering. To quick or slow and the inertia will cause the car to fishtail.

Is it too difficult to accurately control this with the DS2? Personally I would say that its is, the assistance would be my main suspect in this. However, with the DFP I have to still ensure I'm smooth with the inputs and its a challenge, but it is very managable (as long as you don't get to silly with the angles).

Wolfe2x7
I did not claim that GT3 was closer to reality. What I was arguing is that GT3's flaws were easier to swallow, and that overall -- physics-wise -- GT3 was just a better game. Sometimes I think GT4 was designed in cooperation with the DMV..."IF YOU DRIVE FAST, TURN HARD, OR FLOOR THE THROTTLE, YOUR CAR WILL UNDERSTEER OR SPIN AND CRASH, AND YOU WILL DIE, SO DRIVE SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY!!!!!!!"

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the GT3 side of things, I can't agree that 'overall -- physics-wise -- GT3 was just a better game'. Understeer in Gt3 is not accuratly represented, a lot of the cars were prone to over rotation and braking distances were out. Areas that GT4 has, in my opinion, improved on greatly. They are not perfect yet, but outside of a real car or the simulations that manufacturers use, little is.

I have to say that in part the DMV info is right. Turn to fast, to hard or floor the throttle (at the wrong time and rate) and you will understeer or oversteer (depending on the situation).

Wolfe2x7
An exaggeration, yes, but an expression of my frustration with this game's refusal to do anything fun. I drive a car almost every day in real life; I know for a fact that driving is supposed to be fun.

I'm sorry if my last post came across in anyway as a reflection of youre driving experience, it was not intended in that way.

Having said that, I do have a great deal of both knowledge and experience in driving and vehicle evaluation and some of what I see going on in GT4 impresses me a lot. Its still got a long way to go yet, and as others here have expresed I hope that the PS3 will provide the hardware and PD will place even greater importance on the physics engine for Gt5.

Wolfe2x7
Anyway, you didn't respond to my point on how GT4 goes about simulating driving (car versus pavement as opposed to car versus running gear versus pavement)...as I said above, that's probably the biggest reason why I think GT4 is so unrealistic and a chore to play.

For me I think it lies somewhere between the two, I can't agree that he running gear has no effect on the simulation. However, I don't think that its as well implemented as it could be.

I would also like to point out that in no way do I think that GT4 is a true simulation of driving (nor do I think any driving sim is) because the sheer complexity of what is going on when driving is huge.

GT4 for me is a very accurate representation of how a car does react to varous forces placed upon it. The representation work very, very well in some areas and poorly in other areas (mainly the donuts and hand brake turns).

I've never felt convinced 100% that what I am doing in any driving/racing sims is the same as driving a car, the real feel and forces operating, the true aural and visual stimuli can never be recreated.

Regards

Scaff

niky · Sep 13, 2005

@Arwin and Alfaholic... my bad... I should've said, disengaged... I just use the word "clutch" as a verb, to indicate "pressing the clutch"... it's a Filipino-thing, understand. :lol:

@Toronado... The Clio V6 Phase I was often criticized for the amount of understeer it has in real life. Drive it around in GT4, however, and it comes across as well balanced. The Clio V6 Phase II has a more neutral turn in, so oversteers like crazy (but to be fair, at least SOME testers admit that it's too touchy on rough roads). It's part of what Wolfe and Scaff are talking about... it's the balance of understeer vs. oversteer in relation to tire grip and weight. Having never driven the Renault 5 on a banking, I can't comment on this behaviour, whether in game or in real life ( :lol:

).

Likely, the flaw in GT physics is even more noticeable on bankings, but let's see. I'm going to try going around the High Speed Ring later and see if I can unsettle a few of the racers there.

@Wolfe and Scaff: Damn the DMV... :lol:

...I tend to agree that GT3 is a little more "fun", but physics-wise, I'd only say GT3 was better than GT4 as compared to its competition. During its time, GT3 was much better than the opposition. Now, GT4, apparently, isn't.

As for the car vs running gear vs pavement thing, that's one area where I agree completely with Wolfe. Changes to the running gear are treated as merely mathematical adjustments (x+2 or x+4 per modification, instead of x+2 and y+4 and z*1.15...) of isolated parameters, instead of actual physical changes to the car

Like in how a lightened flywheel will cause the engine revs to rise and fall faster, but doesn't affect the weight of the car or the amount of rotational inertia in the drivetrain... or how larger diameter (thus heavier) "race tires" (with more frictional losses) do not lower top speed... (they only affect the "grip" parameter, not the "drag" parameter)... wait, have to test that first... :odd:

...top speed does get higher on worn race tires, but it shouldn't be as high as possible with economy tires... will check this out, and if I'm wrong, I reserve the right to retract this statement.

Wolfe · Sep 13, 2005

Scaff
I don't find the understeer on GT4 to be lift-off proof, as long as the understeer is not severe. As understeer is caused by more than just the steering angle alone, then in very severe cases you will need to reduce the steering angle also.

The "lift-proof" understeer I was referring to was the real-life severe understeer you had mentioned. I wasn't implying that understeer in GT4 was lift-off proof. Also, whether or not steering angle needs to be reduced depends on the specific situation. Regardless of whatever situation you're in, with the DS2, GT4 refuses to help you out, basically forcing the player to use the little analog stick to compensate all by themself.

Scaff
With regard to GT4 and how it represents understeer by pushing the car sideways and forward this is acurate representation of real world understeer.

The assumption that understeer is just caused by the fronts lacking grip is only part of the story, for a more detailed explenation of under and oversteer I'm going to refer to 'Going faster - Mastering the art of race driving' by The Skip Barber Racing School.

Skip then goes on to use this to describe different attitudes a car can take.

A 100 foot radius arc is used, with a Yaw of 8 degrees required to travel the arc.

Understeer
Front Slip Angle - 14 degrees
Rear Slip Angle - 6 degrees
Yaw - 4 degrees

The yaw of 4 degrees is lower than that of the yaw required to travel the arc and the car wil push forward and wide.

Oversteer
Front Slip Angle - 10 degrees
Rear Slip Angle - 16 degrees
Yaw - 14 degrees

The yaw of 14 degrees is greater that that required to travel the arc and the car will take a line that is too tight. If the Rear Slip Angle increases the Yaw will increase dramatically and the car will over rotate (Power Oversteer), however if the fronts have also exceeded their Slip Angle then the car will push wide while over rotating (Power Understeer).

Neutral
Front Slip Angle - 10 degrees
Rear Slip Angle - 10 degrees
Yaw - 8 degrees

The yaw of the car matches the yaw required to travel the arc.

Given the above the I find the GT4 sensation of running forward and to the side to be quite accurate, it also explains why with severe understeer (a very high front slip angle in relation to the rear slip angle) can require a reduction in throttle and steering angle to correct.

That's a lot of numbers, so many in fact that I have no idea what they're even trying to tell me...not to mention that niky and I both agree that one of the problems with GT4 is that it relies on numbers and values too much...

Here's what I'm trying to explain:

What GT4 seems to be trying to simulate here is what my friends and I call "over-understeer." What we've noticed about over-understeer is that, although it is something that occurs in real life, it tends to be something that driving games with bad physics over-emphasize. It has to do with how the car is simply considered a rotating object that can move forward or backward. Over-understeer is something that confuses the physics system, and it just freezes up, so your car keeps on sliding, and sliding, and sliding, no matter what you do, until it hits something. Genki's terribly unrealistic Tokyo Xtreme Racer series is a great example of a physics system with too-prevalent over-understeer.

In real-life, over-understeer can happen when you carelessly throw a car into a corner (usually when attempting to start a drift), as in the second picture, but what the GT4 and TXR fail to realize is that the rear wheels will either resist the sliding motion (wheels would much rather rotate that slide against their plane of rotation), or, in a powerful-enough RWD, spin until the tail is kicked out and the over-understeer simply turns into oversteer.

Scaff
Is the GT4 simulation 100% accurate? I personally very much doubt it, but given the PS2 hardware limitations, a true 100% simulation is not likely.

Given the nature of the thread, I'll keep my opinion of the possibility of a true sim on the PS2 to myself....

Scaff
GT4 does 'assist' steering when using the DS2, the DFP or even the original DF is a much better option, but I will cover that below.

The DFP (and original DF) are both very different to using the DS2, I've never felt that the DFP has the issues you are describing. Use of the DFP on GT3 should not be taken as a good reference, a lot of were initially disapointed with the DFP on GT3, but you have to remember that GT3 was never designed to accept the 900 degree input from the DFP.

That's good. I would hope that they fixed that problem for GT4. Also, if you noticed, I stated before I even began,

Wolfe2x7
I don't have much experience with GT4 and the DFP, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've tried the DFP with GT3

Anyway, I wasn't using the 900 mode on GT3, because it required way too much steering wheel rotation for simple turns. Also, I was using the "simulation" mode in GT3's wheel settings, which further frustrated me.

Scaff
I can't agree that the front tyres tyres of a car only provide minimal influence to the path and angle of a drift.

As was covered above oversteer is when the rear tyres are at a greater slip angle to the front tyres. In the relationship between the two the front tyres are the ones that will be closest to or within the optimum slip angle for traction. As a result they will be the tyres that have the greatest effect on the direction the car is trying to go.

The rears (through the throttle in all but FWD cars) have the major say in the slip angle the rear tyres are at in relation to the fronts. They can increase or decrease the yaw angle easily, and by doing so control the size length and duration of the oversteer.

Weight transfer will also have a say in what occurs here, as will the inertia that builds as yaw angles increase.

I already stated in my last post that inertia and "location" of the weight of the car have a lot to do with the behavior of a drift. No offense, but I would go so far as to say that the weight transfer and inertia have much more influence than the front wheels on the angle, direction, and overall behavior of the drift. This is why 4-wheel drifts work, and why countersteer in a Porsche 911 won't save you from a spin if you throw the tail out too hard.

Further proof of the front wheels' "following" role in a drift is that, if you were to begin a drift and then let go of the steering wheel instead of countersteering, it would spin all by itself in the direction of countersteer. This is because, like I already stated in this post, wheels prefer rolling over sliding, and this friction rotates the front wheels so that they are rolling in the direction of the drift's movement. This is also the reason why countersteer is actually quite easy to pull off quickly in real life; the car "helps" you countersteer.

Scaff
Its this inertia that causes a lot of problems with recovery with the DS2 (its still not easy with the DFP), once you have caught the oversteer and stopped the rotation you are still going to have to control the recovery. With the 'assisted' steering of the DS2 it can be very hard to control the rate at which you unwind the steering. To quick or slow and the inertia will cause the car to fishtail.

Is it too difficult to accurately control this with the DS2? Personally I would say that its is, the assistance would be my main suspect in this. However, with the DFP I have to still ensure I'm smooth with the inputs and its a challenge, but it is very managable (as long as you don't get to silly with the angles).

I wish I had a DFP right here so that I could test it out, but in my little experience with the DFP on GT4, I remember one of the very first things I tried was drifting. I remember I wasn't impressed, surprised, or relieved. In fact, my short experience with the DFP on GT4 was rather disappointing. As I have already said, I don't have much experience with the DFP on GT4, so I'm sure this paragraph doesn't carry much weight as far as you're concerned.

However, thinking back, I can't recall the over-sensitive countersteer being something that was fixed with the switch to the DFP. This is an assumption on my part, but based upon your assessment of DFP-GT4 drifting being difficult, it would seem as though my memory of DFP-GT4 drifting is accurate.

Scaff
I think we will have to agree to disagree on the GT3 side of things, I can't agree that 'overall -- physics-wise -- GT3 was just a better game'. Understeer in Gt3 is not accuratly represented, a lot of the cars were prone to over rotation and braking distances were out. Areas that GT4 has, in my opinion, improved on greatly. They are not perfect yet, but outside of a real car or the simulations that manufacturers use, little is.

Understeer - no, it wasn't accurately represented, but I would say that GT4 and GT3 are roughly equal here. GT3 has too little; GT4 has too much. GT4 isn't as far from realism as GT3, but it's close. Understeer wasn't completely absent from GT3.

Over-rotation - I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This was one of the things that really bugged me about GT3. However, GT4 "fixed" it by replacing it with the completely opposite problem; the over-sensitive, spin-inducing countersteer.

Scaff
I have to say that in part the DMV info is right. Turn to fast, to hard or floor the throttle (at the wrong time and rate) and you will understeer or oversteer (depending on the situation).

I think you missed the humor of the DMV comment...basically I was making a reference to how GT4 almost seems to discourage fast driving, just like the DMV does.

Scaff
I'm sorry if my last post came across in anyway as a reflection of youre driving experience, it was not intended in that way.

I didn't take it that way; I'm angry with PD, not you.

Scaff
Having said that, I do have a great deal of both knowledge and experience in driving and vehicle evaluation and some of what I see going on in GT4 impresses me a lot. Its still got a long way to go yet, and as others here have expresed I hope that the PS3 will provide the hardware and PD will place even greater importance on the physics engine for Gt5.

I'll toast to that! :cheers:

Scaff
For me I think it lies somewhere between the two, I can't agree that he running gear has no effect on the simulation. However, I don't think that its as well implemented as it could be.

Well, the version that niky and I both agree on is that GT4 is car versus pavement, but with lots of complications, such as tire grip values, pre-calculated body roll/movement, (apparently rather primitive) wheel rotational inertia, etc. etc.

Scaff
I would also like to point out that in no way do I think that GT4 is a true simulation of driving (nor do I think any driving sim is) because the sheer complexity of what is going on when driving is huge.

GT4 for me is a very accurate representation of how a car does react to varous forces placed upon it. The representation work very, very well in some areas and poorly in other areas (mainly the donuts and hand brake turns).

I've never felt convinced 100% that what I am doing in any driving/racing sims is the same as driving a car, the real feel and forces operating, the true aural and visual stimuli can never be recreated.

Regards

Scaff

Although I would agree with you that the real feel and forces are impossible to simulate, I disagree that, visually (to an extent) and aurally, driving/racing sims can never duplicate real life. There are sims with excellent recorded sound, and although track modelling, car modelling, textures, etc. etc. have a long way to go before they can truly match the real world, I feel that some sims are beginning to very, very convincingly duplicate the movement of a real car.

SavageEvil · Sep 14, 2005

Wolfe, you need to get on the DFP with GT4, turn off all the wheels assists, and then use a normal car and then race car. This will give you a feel for the degree of rotation in the wheels steering, i found that the race cars require a lot less turning of the wheel, which is how it should be. Stop playing with the DS2, it has handicaps for a reason.

1. You can drive down any straight with on hand on the gas and not steer, don't even attempt that with the DFP.
2. You can recover much more quickly when you go off road mistakenly.
3. DS2 keeps you at a distance from control, car and the road wise.
4. GT3 was good, but after playing GT4, you realize how arcadey GT3 actually was. GT3 cars had weight, but you can recover from anything and everything with ease. It had understeer, but not to the degree that's in GT4. Then again GT3 the physics were are little a little hellish once you slapped on some simulation tires, felt like you were on bald tires.

Stick with the DFP for driving.

Wolfe · Sep 14, 2005

SavageEvil
Wolfe, you need to get on the DFP with GT4, turn off all the wheels assists, and then use a normal car and then race car. This will give you a feel for the degree of rotation in the wheels steering, i found that the race cars require a lot less turning of the wheel, which is how it should be.

What does this have to do with driving physics? And I've used the DFP, I borrowed a friend's for several months. I just didn't bother with GT4, or the PS2 at all. I used it for PC sims.

SavageEvil
Stop playing with the DS2, it has handicaps for a reason.

1. You can drive down any straight with on hand on the gas and not steer, don't even attempt that with the DFP.
2. You can recover much more quickly when you go off road mistakenly.
3. DS2 keeps you at a distance from control, car and the road wise.
4. GT3 was good, but after playing GT4, you realize how arcadey GT3 actually was. GT3 cars had weight, but you can recover from anything and everything with ease. It had understeer, but not to the degree that's in GT4. Then again GT3 the physics were are little a little hellish once you slapped on some simulation tires, felt like you were on bald tires.

1. Wow...I just thought that GT4 had a problem with cars pulling perfectly straight and forward when exiting "donuts" and low-speed drifts...this is with the DS2. If using the DFP causes your car to have a screwed-up alignment...that's even worse.
2. Recover in what way? Countersteering out of a grass-induced oversteer? The reaction on the DS2 for that is quick enough, thank you.
3. ...in GT4. The DS2 isn't some rebellious robo-controller that refuses to be intuitive to use, no matter what game you're playing.
4. GT3 and GT4 are good, but after driving a real car, you realize how unrealistic GT4 actually is. GT4 cars have four wheels and an engine, but you can't drift or do anything fun with ease. It has the Nürburgring, but in order to get realistic laptimes you need to use ridiculously low-grip tires. Then again in GT4 the understeer and countersteer physics are a little hellish no matter what tires you've slapped on; felt like you were driving a stretch limo.

SavageEvil
Stick with the DFP for driving.

That's a good, if expensive, suggestion. I intend on purchasing a DFP sometime, possibly from the friend that lent it to me, if he lowers his price to compensate for the almost broken wire and overall abused-ness...

Scaff · Sep 14, 2005

Wolfe2x7
The "lift-proof" understeer I was referring to was the real-life severe understeer you had mentioned. I wasn't implying that understeer in GT4 was lift-off proof. Also, whether or not steering angle needs to be reduced depends on the specific situation. Regardless of whatever situation you're in, with the DS2, GT4 refuses to help you out, basically forcing the player to use the little analog stick to compensate all by themself.

I ran a range of cars on a range of tracks last night, with both the DS2 an DFP, and I have to say I encountered (deliberatly) both mild and severe understeer. The mild understeer was possiable to correct using only the throttle (although far easier to do with the DFP), severe understeer required both throttle and steering correction to recover from.

Wolfe2x7
That's a lot of numbers, so many in fact that I have no idea what they're even trying to tell me...not to mention that niky and I both agree that one of the problems with GT4 is that it relies on numbers and values too much...

Its a shame to not give them more time, because they are a true and accurate indication of why under and over steer occur and what effect the different degrees of under/over steer have on a cars attitude, yaw and direction.

With regard to GT4 being to reliant on numbers and value, I must confess to not being sure what it (or any other physics model) would use as data. Physics itself is reliant on numbers and values. The examples I gave are from the physics modeling of actual race cars taken from one of the most recognised race schools in the USA (and the world).

Wolfe2x7
Here's what I'm trying to explain:

What GT4 seems to be trying to simulate here is what my friends and I call "over-understeer." What we've noticed about over-understeer is that, although it is something that occurs in real life, it tends to be something that driving games with bad physics over-emphasize. It has to do with how the car is simply considered a rotating object that can move forward or backward. Over-understeer is something that confuses the physics system, and it just freezes up, so your car keeps on sliding, and sliding, and sliding, no matter what you do, until it hits something. Genki's terribly unrealistic Tokyo Xtreme Racer series is a great example of a physics system with too-prevalent over-understeer.

In real-life, over-understeer can happen when you carelessly throw a car into a corner (usually when attempting to start a drift), as in the second picture, but what the GT4 and TXR fail to realize is that the rear wheels will either resist the sliding motion (wheels would much rather rotate that slide against their plane of rotation), or, in a powerful-enough RWD, spin until the tail is kicked out and the over-understeer simply turns into oversteer.

It still seems to me that you have not encounted the range of understeer that GT4 models, the assumption (or its how it reads to me) that only one type of understeer is showen just does not match what I have encountered.

Your first picture gives an example of extreme understeer of a type that you seem to say you encounter regularly in GT4. If this is correct; then first, this type of understeer can occur in the real world, I have had it happen to me and is the result of a massive slip angle to the front tyres, secondly while I have encountered this in GT4, its rare and normally the rest of entering a corner far to quickly.

The second example is that of understeer (of varying levels) in the real world, where the difference between the front and rear slip angles has reduced the overall yaw of the car and pushed it wide of its intended arc of travel. This I have also encounted in GT4.

Wolfe2x7
Given the nature of the thread, I'll keep my opinion of the possibility of a true sim on the PS2 to myself....

And I still maintain that the PS2 does not have the ability to model a 100% true sim.

Wolfe2x7
I already stated in my last post that inertia and "location" of the weight of the car have a lot to do with the behavior of a drift. No offense, but I would go so far as to say that the weight transfer and inertia have much more influence than the front wheels on the angle, direction, and overall behavior of the drift. This is why 4-wheel drifts work, and why countersteer in a Porsche 911 won't save you from a spin if you throw the tail out too hard.

Further proof of the front wheels' "following" role in a drift is that, if you were to begin a drift and then let go of the steering wheel instead of countersteering, it would spin all by itself in the direction of countersteer. This is because, like I already stated in this post, wheels prefer rolling over sliding, and this friction rotates the front wheels so that they are rolling in the direction of the drift's movement. This is also the reason why countersteer is actually quite easy to pull off quickly in real life; the car "helps" you countersteer.

I didn't say that the front wheels would influence the drift itself, the relationship between the front and rear slip angles, inertia and weight transfer will determine the angle and rate of yaw that the car experiences (i.e. the drift) the front wheels do however control the intended direction of travel for the car. Direction of travel and rotation (yaw) are different things, its the meeting of these as the drift is corrected that helps to self centre the car.

you are quite right that should the rate and angle of yaw increase beyond a certain level then the angle of direction travel will become irellevent, however to say that the front wheels have little or no effect on oversteer / drifts is not true.

BTW a true 4wd drift is neither oversteer or understeer, its when the slip angle of both the front and rear tyres are equal, but have exceeded the optimum slip angle to grip. The tyres have all lost grip, but the slip angle is equal so the car travels at the required yaw rate in a neutral attitude.

Wolfe2x7
I wish I had a DFP right here so that I could test it out, but in my little experience with the DFP on GT4, I remember one of the very first things I tried was drifting. I remember I wasn't impressed, surprised, or relieved. In fact, my short experience with the DFP on GT4 was rather disappointing. As I have already said, I don't have much experience with the DFP on GT4, so I'm sure this paragraph doesn't carry much weight as far as you're concerned. However, thinking back, I can't recall the over-sensitive countersteer being something that was fixed with the switch to the DFP. This is an assumption on my part, but based upon your assessment of DFP-GT4 drifting being difficult, it would seem as though my memory of DFP-GT4 drifting is accurate.

I find the DFP to be an excellent interface with GT4, its not perfect, but it is one of the best wheels (at its price point) on the market. I find GT4 very intuative to drive with it.

Wolfe2x7
I think you missed the humor of the DMV comment...basically I was making a reference to how GT4 almost seems to discourage fast driving, just like the DMV does.

I didn't miss the humour in it, just wanted to point out that it is in part correct, in my opinion GT4 does not discourage fast driving, but it does punish driving to fast for the conditions, and the race track will do just the same, but with a lot more pain involved.

Wolfe2x7
Well, the version that niky and I both agree on is that GT4 is car versus pavement, but with lots of complications, such as tire grip values, pre-calculated body roll/movement, (apparently rather primitive) wheel rotational inertia, etc. etc.

This one I want to have a look at, I don't personally feel that it is as simple as car versus pavement, but its how and if it can be proved.

Wolfe2x7
Although I would agree with you that the real feel and forces are impossible to simulate, I disagree that, visually (to an extent) and aurally, driving/racing sims can never duplicate real life. There are sims with excellent recorded sound, and although track modelling, car modelling, textures, etc. etc. have a long way to go before they can truly match the real world, I feel that some sims are beginning to very, very convincingly duplicate the movement of a real car.

Its your last part that sums it up for me "I feel that some sims are beginning to very, very convincingly duplicate the movement of a real car", that it is still a convincing duplicate. Also I still think we have a long way to go on the aural and visual side of things, without true periferal vision, the visual side is never going to arrive (and I mean a lot more that just a few screens of to the side). On the aural side they will be able to get closer, but the range and nuance of sounds are just too great to recreate and seperate.

Wolfe2x7
1. Wow...I just thought that GT4 had a problem with cars pulling perfectly straight and forward when exiting "donuts" and low-speed drifts...this is with the DS2. If using the DFP causes your car to have a screwed-up alignment...that's even worse.

Only at speeds about 150mph (approx) and to be totally stable at those speeds would be unrealistic (this I know - 155mph on an Autobahn required constant minor corrections), its not perfect on GT4 but at least its present.

Wolfe2x7
2. Recover in what way? Countersteering out of a grass-induced oversteer? The reaction on the DS2 for that is quick enough, thank you.

I quite agree, I don't see how its any quicker in these situations, in fact I would argue that its slower.

Wolfe2x7
3. ...in GT4. The DS2 isn't some rebellious robo-controller that refuses to be intuitive to use, no matter what game you're playing.

I'm sure however that you would agree that a controller is not the ideal interface for a driving game. I mean would you want one fitted to your car in place of the wheel and pedals.

It does not matter how good a simulation is, if the interface is a weak area, then so will be the sim.

Wolfe2x7
4. GT3 and GT4 are good, but after driving a real car, you realize how unrealistic GT4 actually is. GT4 cars have four wheels and an engine, but you can't drift or do anything fun with ease. It has the Nürburgring, but in order to get realistic laptimes you need to use ridiculously low-grip tires. Then again in GT4 the understeer and countersteer physics are a little hellish no matter what tires you've slapped on; felt like you were driving a stretch limo.

You just know that I'm not going to agree with you on this one, the N2 tyres are not rediculously low grip, but a fair representation of what happends to a street tyre if you subject it to the laws of physics on a race track.

With regard to understeer, I still maintain that the levels are not way off and I don't personally find them hellish, and as for tyres, anything above an S3 and most cars suffer from very little understeer unless you go totally mad (and at that point you should feel to unplesent grip of understeer and given the speeds likely to be involved , unless your quick, very severe understeer).

But thats just me.

Regards

Scaff

Woolie Wool · Sep 14, 2005

Its your last part that sums it up for me "I feel that some sims are beginning to very, very convincingly duplicate the movement of a real car", that it is still a convincing duplicate. Also I still think we have a long way to go on the aural and visual side of things, without true periferal vision, the visual side is never going to arrive (and I mean a lot more that just a few screens of to the side). On the aural side they will be able to get closer, but the range and nuance of sounds are just too great to recreate and seperate.

Never is a very long time. In 100 years or so we could have holographic simulations with full-body force feedback that are indistinguishable from real life.

Alfaholic · Sep 14, 2005

Wolfe2x7
Further proof of the front wheels' "following" role in a drift is that, if you were to begin a drift and then let go of the steering wheel instead of countersteering, it would spin all by itself in the direction of countersteer. This is because, like I already stated in this post, wheels prefer rolling over sliding, and this friction rotates the front wheels so that they are rolling in the direction of the drift's movement. This is also the reason why countersteer is actually quite easy to pull off quickly in real life; the car "helps" you countersteer.

*cough* um sorry to disrupt the flow of what has become a very interesting debate, but on this point I feel I just have to butt in and point out that I am quite sure that cars which will automatically countersteer into an oversteer if the wheel is released do so because the front wheels have some castor angle. this applies a moment around the turning axis of the wheel which encourages the wheel to always face forwards and is exactly the principle that works on the wheels of shopping trolleys. It makes a car more stable in a straight line, and I think it helps resist torque steer, because FWD cars often seem to have a large amount of castor for some reason. Castor also masks road feedback, makes the steering feel springy, and can, if excessive, cause a force strong enough to rip the wheel out of the driver's hands should he experience large angles of oversteer. It will also cause the steering to wind to full lock when reversing. All road cars that I am aware of have some castor angle built in to the front suspension geometry, but not all will automatically countersteer, particularly RWD cars with power assistance, probably because the force created by the castor angle is less than the sum of forces / inertias resisting rotation of the steering gear.

Back on topic, in my experience of lift-off oversteer in RL FF and FR cars, and power oversteer in FR cars, steering control is always at least as important as throttle control, and in FF cars, where throttle control is simple (regardless of what caused the oversteer, you always apply throttle in correcting it) steering is your primary tool for correcting a slide. Too much countersteer will put you in real danger of driving straight off the outside of the turn, by a) recovering the slide too violently and b) ensuring the front wheels are pointing towards the hedge when the car loses rotational momentum and starts following the front wheels again.

Where GT4 differs from my RL experience on oversteer is in fishtailing. I usually found that I fishtailed when I had not applied enough lock. In GT4 it occurs when I apply too much lock, which in RL would just make the car suddenly dart for the outside of the curve and require rapid steering correction to get back on course. It's a very uncomfortable feeling, and GT4 resoundingly fails to emulate that sensation of being bounced out of your seat while watching your windscreen fill with scenery.

Anyway sorry to interrupt, you two carry on

SavageEvil · Sep 14, 2005

I'm serious about the DS2, it's very easy to recover from off road jaunts.
Head to the Nürburgring using the DFP, now after the bridge crossing, after going up the hill, the right hand sweeper now if you go off the road at this point traveling at speeds in excess of 150mph, you will just lose all control, but you can quickly correct by letting off the gas, the wheels will center themselves.

Now do that with the DFP, now you will understand why i said it's harder, full force feedback, reads the uneveness of the grass and throws your steering out of whack, and actually emulates steering loss(where you front wheel inputs do nothing). Granted the wheels gives you infinately more control on the road, it's almost a detriment when you veer off the paved surfaces, especially grass.

It's safe to say that the DFP makes GT4 feel like you are playing a whole other game, GT3 does not compare, believe that. Now only if the wheel self centered much more quickly, feels like you are driving a car with no power steering.

what's this about drifting? Granted it's not as easy as it was in GT3, but then again it ain't no easy thing in real life, proper vehicle setup is a must. I practice drifting, haven't done it in a while though, but i use an S15 with 400hp on N2's I was in the process of setting up drift entry setups with the LSD settings. How do you initiate your drifts, using the handbrake? or doing it Initial D style. Granted handbrake drifts in GT4 are just plain hard to get ahang of, the grip loss is too sudden at high speeds and the back end just flys out infront of you. I prefer the Initial D style, either going feint drift, or lift throttle, as i have more control with the speed as i enter the drift. It's not an exact science in the game as some strange physics and omitted clutch kicks make it a lil different that what you can do in real life, it's ok. Hopefully this is addressed in GT5, but I'm more about control and feedback between me, my car and the road. DFP gives you the closest sense of controlling a car on consoles to date.

Wolfe · Sep 14, 2005

Scaff
I ran a range of cars on a range of tracks last night, with both the DS2 an DFP, and I have to say I encountered (deliberatly) both mild and severe understeer. The mild understeer was possiable to correct using only the throttle (although far easier to do with the DFP), severe understeer required both throttle and steering correction to recover from.

That's basically the same thing that I am saying, though I feel GT4 should compensate a little more for the DS2 in a severe understeer situation, because (at least for me) the steering correction required for severe understeer is almost sub-conscious, and really simple, whereas GT4 expects DS2 users to fix it by themselves with the little stick.

I will add again that proper oversteer simulation, particularly lift-off oversteer, would make escaping understeer more realistic, and consequently, easier.

Scaff
Its a shame to not give them more time, because they are a true and accurate indication of why under and over steer occur and what effect the different degrees of under/over steer have on a cars attitude, yaw and direction.

Sorry, I'm more of a visual learner, and although I understand what "yaw" and "slip angle" mean, the explanations below made no sense to me, without having an accompanying picture. :embarrassed:

Scaff
With regard to GT4 being to reliant on numbers and value, I must confess to not being sure what it (or any other physics model) would use as data. Physics itself is reliant on numbers and values. The examples I gave are from the physics modeling of actual race cars taken from one of the most recognised race schools in the USA (and the world).

There's a difference between putting basic numbers and values into a simulation, and using physics equations with data from the real-world cars. GT4 uses the former, a better simulation would use the latter. The car-editing program for GT3 revealed that much of the arithmetic was relatively basic; given the artificial feel of the driving physics in both GT3 and GT4, I would not be surprised if the simulation used basic arithmetic as well.

Scaff
It still seems to me that you have not encounted the range of understeer that GT4 models, the assumption (or its how it reads to me) that only one type of understeer is showen just does not match what I have encountered.

Your first picture gives an example of extreme understeer of a type that you seem to say you encounter regularly in GT4. If this is correct; then first, this type of understeer can occur in the real world, I have had it happen to me and is the result of a massive slip angle to the front tyres, secondly while I have encountered this in GT4, its rare and normally the rest of entering a corner far to quickly.

Sorry, Scaff, but I am going to have to disagree. The flaw with the understeer depicted in the first picture is that it completely ignores the fact that the rear wheels would rather roll than slide. The only way this would happen in real-life is if the driver were to panic and slam on the brakes, locking up all four wheels and sliding at the same angle and direction until he came to a stop. This isn't uncommon in real life (especially during the winter), and I've managed to do it in my two favorite driving sims, while screwing around and doing some drifting.

Also, I already explained that it is a result of entering a corner far too quickly. I'm enjoying discussing this with you, but it would help if I didn't keep on having to repeat myself and explain to you that I had already said something. :indiff:

Scaff
The second example is that of understeer (of varying levels) in the real world, where the difference between the front and rear slip angles has reduced the overall yaw of the car and pushed it wide of its intended arc of travel. This I have also encounted in GT4.

The picture I posted was anything but ordinary understeer. To throw the car into a corner with enough force and speed to not only get sideways, but also get massive understeer (thus, "over-understeer") takes big balls and/or a small brain.

If you were to ignore the car at the bottom and only look at the other car, yes, that would be ordinary understeer. However, the difference here is that the car entered the corner in a state of over-understeer, and (as it would happen in real life or a good driving sim) the rear wheels resisted their sliding motion, moving the car and/or reeling in the back end until they were rolling once again. Thus, the oversteer was eliminated and the car transferred to a state of pure understeer.

Scaff
And I still maintain that the PS2 does not have the ability to model a 100% true sim.

Fair enough.

Scaff
I didn't say that the front wheels would influence the drift itself, the relationship between the front and rear slip angles, inertia and weight transfer will determine the angle and rate of yaw that the car experiences (i.e. the drift) the front wheels do however control the intended direction of travel for the car. Direction of travel and rotation (yaw) are different things, its the meeting of these as the drift is corrected that helps to self centre the car.

you are quite right that should the rate and angle of yaw increase beyond a certain level then the angle of direction travel will become irellevent, however to say that the front wheels have little or no effect on oversteer / drifts is not true

Well, I see where our confusion is coming from; I didn't mean that the front wheels had little effect on the angle/direction of the drift. What I was trying to say is that the front wheels had little effect on the drift itself, and that their realm of influence was limited to the angle/direction of the drift. I still stand by my statement that the weight/balance/inertia of the car have more to do with the behavior of a drift, though.

Scaff
BTW a true 4wd drift is neither oversteer or understeer, its when the slip angle of both the front and rear tyres are equal, but have exceeded the optimum slip angle to grip. The tyres have all lost grip, but the slip angle is equal so the car travels at the required yaw rate in a neutral attitude.

I never used the terms oversteer or understeer when referring to the four-wheel drift, and I agree with your definition of the concept, other than the fact that it can be done on pretty much any "driftable" car, not just 4WD's.

Scaff
I didn't miss the humour in it, just wanted to point out that it is in part correct, in my opinion GT4 does not discourage fast driving, but it does punish driving to fast for the conditions, and the race track will do just the same, but with a lot more pain involved.

That's for sure.

I see what you're saying now.

Scaff
This one I want to have a look at, I don't personally feel that it is as simple as car versus pavement, but its how and if it can be proved.

I don't know if it can be "scientifically" proven, but there are strong arguments for it, such as the donut/low-speed-driving behaviors, and the awkward, artificial feel of some of the cars (just drove a fully-modded Suzuki Cappucino in GT4 a couple of days ago. That car drove so weird...almost as if it was "strafing" into the corners...).

Scaff
Its your last part that sums it up for me "I feel that some sims are beginning to very, very convincingly duplicate the movement of a real car", that it is still a convincing duplicate. Also I still think we have a long way to go on the aural and visual side of things, without true periferal vision, the visual side is never going to arrive (and I mean a lot more that just a few screens of to the side). On the aural side they will be able to get closer, but the range and nuance of sounds are just too great to recreate and seperate.

What I meant by the movement of the cars is that, "visually", looking at how the cars move, their behavior looks very convincing. The way the cars bounce, roll, dive, and squat on their suspensions, the angle and motion of drifts and turns, etc.

Scaff
Only at speeds about 150mph (approx)

Phew. That's good. I'm afraid that still doesn't validate SavageEvil's point, however...

Scaff
I'm sure however that you would agree that a controller is not the ideal interface for a driving game. I mean would you want one fitted to your car in place of the wheel and pedals.

It does not matter how good a simulation is, if the interface is a weak area, then so will be the sim.

No, I wouldn't want to use a controller for my car, but just because a controller is involved doesn't mean that a game is as perfectly realistic as it could possibly be. If that were true then Ridge Racer V and Gran Turismo 4 would be equals, if you played them both with the DS2. It's not how you drive it, it's how it drives. And I think the GT series doesn't drive well enough, yet.

Scaff
You just know that I'm not going to agree with you on this one, the N2 tyres are not rediculously low grip, but a fair representation of what happends to a street tyre if you subject it to the laws of physics on a race track.

Yes, but N1's are pushing it..

Scaff
With regard to understeer, I still maintain that the levels are not way off and I don't personally find them hellish, and as for tyres, anything above an S3 and most cars suffer from very little understeer unless you go totally mad (and at that point you should feel to unplesent grip of understeer and given the speeds likely to be involved , unless your quick, very severe understeer).

But thats just me.

If you didn't notice, that last bit was a bit of a word game, in which I turned his final argument around. I don't seriously find the understeer levels to be "hellish," but I actually will argue that the understeer remains prevalent no matter what tires you have. With R tires, there's no tire squeal, but the car still just refuses to rotate.

Wolfe · Sep 14, 2005

Alfaholic
*cough* um sorry to disrupt the flow of what has become a very interesting debate, but on this point I feel I just have to butt in and point out that I am quite sure that cars which will automatically countersteer into an oversteer if the wheel is released do so because the front wheels have some castor angle. this applies a moment around the turning axis of the wheel which encourages the wheel to always face forwards and is exactly the principle that works on the wheels of shopping trolleys. It makes a car more stable in a straight line, and I think it helps resist torque steer, because FWD cars often seem to have a large amount of castor for some reason. Castor also masks road feedback, makes the steering feel springy, and can, if excessive, cause a force strong enough to rip the wheel out of the driver's hands should he experience large angles of oversteer. It will also cause the steering to wind to full lock when reversing. All road cars that I am aware of have some castor angle built in to the front suspension geometry, but not all will automatically countersteer, particularly RWD cars with power assistance, probably because the force created by the castor angle is less than the sum of forces / inertias resisting rotation of the steering gear.

That is a more complex, detailed, technical explanation for exactly what I was talking about.

👍 I didn't know caster was what caused it, though...

Alfaholic
Back on topic, in my experience of lift-off oversteer in RL FF and FR cars, and power oversteer in FR cars, steering control is always at least as important as throttle control, and in FF cars, where throttle control is simple (regardless of what caused the oversteer, you always apply throttle in correcting it) steering is your primary tool for correcting a slide. Too much countersteer will put you in real danger of driving straight off the outside of the turn, by a) recovering the slide too violently and b) ensuring the front wheels are pointing towards the hedge when the car loses rotational momentum and starts following the front wheels again.

Steering control is indeed as important as throttle control, and steering is the primary tool for correcting it, but steering isn't the dominant factor in the overall behavior of a drift. Weight, inertia, and momentum are the dominant factors.

Alfaholic
Where GT4 differs from my RL experience on oversteer is in fishtailing. I usually found that I fishtailed when I had not applied enough lock. In GT4 it occurs when I apply too much lock, which in RL would just make the car suddenly dart for the outside of the curve and require rapid steering correction to get back on course. It's a very uncomfortable feeling, and GT4 resoundingly fails to emulate that sensation of being bounced out of your seat while watching your windscreen fill with scenery.

Anyway sorry to interrupt, you two carry on

I think the problem with GT4 that starts the fishtailing to begin with, and makes applying "too much" lock far too easy to do, is that GT4 doesn't fully understand the concept of rotational momentum, as you were saying above. GT4 "follows" the front wheels almost imediately.

SavageEvil
I'm serious about the DS2, it's very easy to recover from off road jaunts.
Head to the Nürburgring using the DFP, now after the bridge crossing, after going up the hill, the right hand sweeper now if you go off the road at this point traveling at speeds in excess of 150mph, you will just lose all control, but you can quickly correct by letting off the gas, the wheels will center themselves.

Now do that with the DFP, now you will understand why i said it's harder, full force feedback, reads the uneveness of the grass and throws your steering out of whack, and actually emulates steering loss(where you front wheel inputs do nothing). Granted the wheels gives you infinately more control on the road, it's almost a detriment when you veer off the paved surfaces, especially grass.

Oh. We thought you were saying the DFP was faster.

SavageEvil
It's safe to say that the DFP makes GT4 feel like you are playing a whole other game, GT3 does not compare, believe that. Now only if the wheel self centered much more quickly, feels like you are driving a car with no power steering.

Actually, it's the other way around, a car without power-steering would self-center more quickly.

SavageEvil
what's this about drifting? Granted it's not as easy as it was in GT3, but then again it ain't no easy thing in real life, proper vehicle setup is a must.

Drifting is quite easy in real life. I would know, I drive a rear-wheel-drive BMW. Needing proper vehicle setup is a myth that has become very prominent because of GT4. How do I know? My 100hp 318i has nothing more than an aftermarket exhaust and slightly stiffer springs, yet it can drift just fine in the rain and snow, with its open differential and 20-year-old stock suspension design. If I had a more powerful engine, and money to burn on tires, I could drift in the dry as well.

Hell, I can remember a time when I hand-brake drifted a friend's '86 Toyota Camry (stock, obviously) around a snowy parking lot. There were several "islands" in a row, and I weight-transfered through them, drifting between them and going back and forth. That was a fun evening.

Then there were the times I drifted my parents' Chevy Blazer and Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme...

Needing proper vehicle setup = myth.

SavageEvil
I practice drifting, haven't done it in a while though, but i use an S15 with 400hp on N2's I was in the process of setting up drift entry setups with the LSD settings. How do you initiate your drifts, using the handbrake? or doing it Initial D style. Granted handbrake drifts in GT4 are just plain hard to get ahang of, the grip loss is too sudden at high speeds and the back end just flys out infront of you. I prefer the Initial D style, either going feint drift, or lift throttle, as i have more control with the speed as i enter the drift. It's not an exact science in the game as some strange physics and omitted clutch kicks make it a lil different that what you can do in real life, it's ok. Hopefully this is addressed in GT5, but I'm more about control and feedback between me, my car and the road.

I initiate my drifts the way any experienced RWD driver would, using the normal brakes and/or the weight of the car. Using the handbrake is for beginners (GT4's handbrake doesn't even work), and clutch kicks are bad for your car in real life.

SavageEvil
DFP gives you the closest sense of controlling a car on consoles to date.

I agree with you that the DFP is excellent, but that still doesn't mean that the DS2 can never provide a realistic driving experience.

Scaff · Sep 14, 2005

Wolfe2x7
That's basically the same thing that I am saying, though I feel GT4 should compensate a little more for the DS2 in a severe understeer situation, because (at least for me) the steering correction required for severe understeer is almost sub-conscious, and really simple, whereas GT4 expects DS2 users to fix it by themselves with the little stick.

I could also be argued that maybe you are asking GT4 to do a bit too much of the work for you!

All joking aside, the DS2 is not an ideal interface with GT4, but I can think of other racing/driving games/sims in which the same is true. The lack of precision on the DS2 means that in these cases a wheel & pedals is a much more accurate and controlable interface.

Wolfe2x7
I will add again that proper oversteer simulation, particularly lift-off oversteer, would make escaping understeer more realistic, and consequently, easier.

Have you ever driven a car with strong lift-off oversteer? Try a full lift (required for lift-off oversteer) to reduce understeer and you are likely to end up facing the wrong way.

Wolfe2x7
Sorry, I'm more of a visual learner, and although I understand what "yaw" and "slip angle" mean, the explanations below made no sense to me, without having an accompanying picture.

Hope this helps

Wolfe2x7
There's a difference between putting basic numbers and values into a simulation, and using physics equations with data from the real-world cars. GT4 uses the former, a better simulation would use the latter. The car-editing program for GT3 revealed that much of the arithmetic was relatively basic; given the artificial feel of the driving physics in both GT3 and GT4, I would not be surprised if the simulation used basic arithmetic as well.

Given that GT4 has had a total re-write of the physics engine and that the cars drive in a totally different manner I think that is a major assumption to make. No hard data exists to prove this one way or another.

Wolfe2x7
Sorry, Scaff, but I am going to have to disagree. The flaw with the understeer depicted in the first picture is that it completely ignores the fact that the rear wheels would rather roll than slide. The only way this would happen in real-life is if the driver were to panic and slam on the brakes, locking up all four wheels and sliding at the same angle and direction until he came to a stop. This isn't uncommon in real life (especially during the winter), and I've managed to do it in my two favorite driving sims, while screwing around and doing some drifting.

Also, I already explained that it is a result of entering a corner far too quickly. I'm enjoying discussing this with you, but it would help if I didn't keep on having to repeat myself and explain to you that I had already said something.

Wolfe, sorry but you refuse to look at the data I supplied to support my explinations and then have a 'pop' at me for trying to explain how understeer is defined?

I hope that the visual info I have supplied above will help with this.

Any time that a car is being turned and the slip angle of the front is greater that the slip angle of the rear it is in an attitude of understeer. If all four wheels have lost traction (in which case the tyres will be just as inclined to slide as roll - particularly if the speed is high). This is still understeer, even if it was caused by braking.

Wolfe2x7
The picture I posted was anything but ordinary understeer. To throw the car into a corner with enough force and speed to not only get sideways, but also get massive understeer (thus, "over-understeer") takes big balls and/or a small brain. If you were to ignore the car at the bottom and only look at the other car, yes, that would be ordinary understeer. However, the difference here is that the car entered the corner in a state of over-understeer, and (as it would happen in real life or a good driving sim) the rear wheels resisted their sliding motion, moving the car and/or reeling in the back end until they were rolling once again. Thus, the oversteer was eliminated and the car transferred to a state of pure understeer.

Hopefull the above pictures will again help give my point some reference. I'm not disputing that understeer of the nature shown in the second pictures does not happen. I'm saying that both can happen, depending on the situation, and that I have encountered both.

I'm sorry if that was not clear, but as I said I hope the shot from the Skip Barber book helps to clear it up.

Wolfe2x7
Well, I see where our confusion is coming from; I didn't mean that the front wheels had little effect on the angle/direction of the drift. What I was trying to say is that the front wheels had little effect on the drift itself, and that their realm of influence was limited to the angle/direction of the drift. I still stand by my statement that the weight/balance/inertia of the car have more to do with the behavior of a drift, though.

And I would agree that weight/balance/inertia have more to with the drift, but the direction you want to end up going in is determined by the steering, hence my point that they are more than along for the ride.

Wolfe2x7
I never used the terms oversteer or understeer when referring to the four-wheel drift, and I agree with your definition of the concept, other than the fact that it can be done on pretty much any "driftable" car, not just 4WD's.

Typo time, bad Scaff, should have just been 4W drift, not 4wd drift.

Wolfe2x7
I don't know if it can be "scientifically" proven, but there are strong arguments for it, such as the donut/low-speed-driving behaviors, and the awkward, artificial feel of some of the cars (just drove a fully-modded Suzuki Cappucino in GT4 a couple of days ago. That car drove so weird...almost as if it was "strafing" into the corners...).

I have not driven a Cappucino in GT4 yet, but I have driven one a number of times in real life. Will give it a go tonight and let you know.

Wolfe2x7
It's not how you drive it, it's how it drives. And I think the GT series doesn't drive well enough, yet.

Surely its a bit of both, otherwise it sounds like you want the interface to do everything for you.

Wolfe2x7
Yes, but N1's are pushing it..

N1's are descibed as tyre principally designed for comfort and ride quality, not grip. So I would say they live up to that. N2's are close to the right grip levels for a lot fo common road tyres.

Wolfe2x7
If you didn't notice, that last bit was a bit of a word game, in which I turned his final argument around. I don't seriously find the understeer levels to be "hellish," but I actually will argue that the understeer remains prevalent no matter what tires you have. With R tires, there's no tire squeal, but the car still just refuses to rotate.

With the exception of the R1's I do not generally use them as the level of grip offered is just far to high, which would explain the problems with rotation particularly with cars with large width tyres. Understeer is always going to exist when you overuse the front tyres in relation to the rears, level of grip just raises the bar.

Regards

Scaff

Scaff · Sep 14, 2005

Sorry just could not resist this.

You said

Wolfe2x7
Hell, I can remember a time when I hand-brake drifted a friend's '86 Toyota Camry

Then you said this

Wolfe2x7
Using the handbrake is for beginners

By the way would you mind telling all the drivers in the WRC (and any other rally driver around) that the use of the handbrake is for beginners. :lol:

Toungue firmly in cheek.

Scaff

Wolfe · Sep 15, 2005

Scaff
Sorry just could not resist this.

You said

"Hell, I can remember a time when I hand-brake drifted a friend's '86 Toyota Camry"

Then you said this

"Using the handbrake is for beginners"

Camry = FWD.

Though you would still be right; not only is drifting a FWD without using the handbrake possible, I actually prefer to do it that way whenever I can.

Regardless, I was referring to a RWD car.

Scaff
By the way would you mind telling all the drivers in the WRC (and any other rally driver around) that the use of the handbrake is for beginners.

Toungue firmly in cheek.

Scaff

Ouch.

Allow me to elaborate what I meant. "Using the handbrake to initiate a drift in a RWD car in any situation other than a very tight turn on a narrow road surface is for beginners."

Wolfe · Sep 15, 2005

Scaff
I could also be argued that maybe you are asking GT4 to do a bit too much of the work for you!

You're right, it's arguable either way.

Scaff
Have you ever driven a car with strong lift-off oversteer? Try a full lift (required for lift-off oversteer) to reduce understeer and you are likely to end up facing the wrong way.

Maybe in an old 911...in any properly balanced car, the oversteer is easy to catch, provided that you are quick enough with the steering wheel. A proven method of escaping understeer in a balanced car is lift-off oversteer; just read any review of the Porsche Boxster. I've even used it myself, in the snow.

Scaff
Hope this helps

Okay, it makes perfect sense now. Thanks.

Scaff
Given that GT4 has had a total re-write of the physics engine and that the cars drive in a totally different manner I think that is a major assumption to make. No hard data exists to prove this one way or another.

Nope. I never claimed it was true. I just wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Scaff
Wolfe, sorry but you refuse to look at the data I supplied to support my explinations and then have a 'pop' at me for trying to explain how understeer is defined?

I hope that the visual info I have supplied above will help with this.

Any time that a car is being turned and the slip angle of the front is greater that the slip angle of the rear it is in an attitude of understeer. If all four wheels have lost traction (in which case the tyres will be just as inclined to slide as roll - particularly if the speed is high). This is still understeer, even if it was caused by braking.

Hey now, no need to get agitated. I never tried to define understeer for you, and I looked at the data but wasn't sure what it was trying to explain.

I didn't say that the first picture wasn't understeer -- I said that it was unrealistic for this constant-angle, constant-direction slide to continue, unchanged. Unless, of course, the brakes were locked.

The state of over-understeer that the first car is in, is exactly the same as the car at the bottom of the second picture. What I was arguing is that the second picture shows how a real car would respond to this over-understeer.

Scaff
And I would agree that weight/balance/inertia have more to with the drift, but the direction you want to end up going in is determined by the steering, hence my point that they are more than along for the ride.

The main point that I was arguing is the part that you just agreed to, and my point about the steering wheels being along for the ride had more to do with the entry of the drift and mid-drift. The direction at the exit of the drift, as you said, is determined by the steering wheels. Basically, we agree here.

Scaff
Surely its a bit of both, otherwise it sounds like you want the interface to do everything for you.

Yes, I suppose you could take it that way.

Controller or wheel, if the physics aren't there, the game isn't realistic.

Scaff
N1's are descibed as tyre principally designed for comfort and ride quality, not grip. So I would say they live up to that. N2's are close to the right grip levels for a lot fo common road tyres.

You're right, but the whole reason I brought up tire grip levels at all was to make a reference to Nürburgring laptimes. Having to use "comfort" tires to match times yet still beating them by a considerable margin, fear-factor or not, is at the very least questionable.

Scaff
With the exception of the R1's I do not generally use them as the level of grip offered is just far to high, which would explain the problems with rotation particularly with cars with large width tyres. Understeer is always going to exist when you overuse the front tyres in relation to the rears, level of grip just raises the bar.

So you agree with me, then.

Uncle Harry · Sep 15, 2005

Progression : GT1 to GT4 and a simple sumation.
As the cars get prettier to look at the lap times get slower.
You now can watch your pretty car undeeeer steeeer into the armco barrier.
has it become more realistic?
Probably.
But how real is driving when seated in a lounge chair without any forces acting on the human body and no periperal vision.

SavageEvil · Sep 15, 2005

Uncle Harry
Progression : GT1 to GT4 and a simple sumation.
As the cars get prettier to look at the lap times get slower.
You now can watch your pretty car undeeeer steeeer into the armco barrier.
has it become more realistic?
Probably.
But how real is driving when seated in a lounge chair without any forces acting on the human body and no periperal vision.

As real as they can get without you actually having to buy a car and spend money doing things you do in the game.

Wolfe · Sep 15, 2005

Both of you have valid points....

Scaff · Sep 15, 2005

Wolfe2x7
Maybe in an old 911...in any properly balanced car, the oversteer is easy to catch, provided that you are quick enough with the steering wheel. A proven method of escaping understeer in a balanced car is lift-off oversteer; just read any review of the Porsche Boxster. I've even used it myself, in the snow.

As you are in the US, I will asume you have never had the pleasure of driving one of these.

The Peugeot 205 GTi, a wonderfully balance 1.9 litre FWD hot hatch, withone great catch. Lift-off oversteer by the shovelful, a full lift in one of these put a lot of people into ditches (just like the old 911).

Others that spring to mind that I have driven and are similar are, Citroen Saxo VTS, Renault Clio Williams, Renualt Clio V6 (MkI), Lotus Elise, and quite a few more that escape my memory at the moment.

I would quite agree that a lift of the throttle can be used to correct understeer, in a good number of cars I would not suggest a full lift unless you are very quick with the steering. Additionally on the track a full lift would be a total waste, as correcting understeer with oversteer is neither quick or good for the overall balance of the car. Correcting understeer (on the track) should be enough lift (and steering if required) to return the car to a neutral attitude.

Wolfe2x7
The main point that I was arguing is the part that you just agreed to, and my point about the steering wheels being along for the ride had more to do with the entry of the drift and mid-drift. The direction at the exit of the drift, as you said, is determined by the steering wheels. Basically, we agree here.

Cool, with this one and the understeer issue, I think it was simply a case of making sure we both were clear about how we describe understeer in its various forms.

Wolfe2x7
You're right, but the whole reason I brought up tire grip levels at all was to make a reference to Nürburgring laptimes. Having to use "comfort" tires to match times yet still beating them by a considerable margin, fear-factor or not, is at the very least questionable.

I would not argue with that, in the same way that I have not said that GT4 is 100%. I don't discount the fear factor at the 'ring, Nick Heidfelt have said that its a major factor (and afetr you're trip I'm sure you would agree it needs to be taking into account). One thing that I have found helps is to set the display to 'simple' and turn off the map, it makes a huge difference to the 'ring not having the back-up if the map. Give it a go if you have not already.

Wolfe2x7
So you agree with me, then.

I don't think anyone could honestly say that the grip levels offered by the higher end Racing tyres are that realistic. Much higher than an R1 is getting silly, apart from (and this may sound strange) the qualifing tyres, these remind me of the tyres that used to be used in high end GT racing for qualifying, grip levels far beyond that of any normal racing tyre, but with a lap life of approx 1 lap. No use for racing and little use in GT4, but they did exist and were used (the BMI DVD Fuji Fast discusses these).

Regards

Scaff

Arwin · Sep 15, 2005

Just wanted to point out that the replays of GT4 Prologue PAL can still be analysed much like you can analyse the replays of GT3, revealing that at least the basis numbers of GT3 are still in place in GT4, with only a few numbers added, so most changes are in the interpretations of those numbers. Of course you also have to take into account that several special cars have customised routines adding certain kinds of behavior.

Some things changed from GT4 Prologue to GT4 final, but not an aweful lot. The last version of the replay manager displays most numbers in GT4 Prologue PAL correctly, though not all.

Alfaholic · Sep 15, 2005

Wolfe2x7
Steering control is indeed as important as throttle control, and steering is the primary tool for correcting it, but steering isn't the dominant factor in the overall behavior of a drift. Weight, inertia, and momentum are the dominant factors.

Utter agreement

Wolfe · Sep 15, 2005

Scaff
As you are in the US, I will asume you have never had the pleasure of driving one of these.

The Peugeot 205 GTi, a wonderfully balance 1.9 litre FWD hot hatch, withone great catch. Lift-off oversteer by the shovelful, a full lift in one of these put a lot of people into ditches (just like the old 911).

Others that spring to mind that I have driven and are similar are, Citroen Saxo VTS, Renault Clio Williams, Renualt Clio V6 (MkI), Lotus Elise, and quite a few more that escape my memory at the moment.

I would quite agree that a lift of the throttle can be used to correct understeer, in a good number of cars I would not suggest a full lift unless you are very quick with the steering. Additionally on the track a full lift would be a total waste, as correcting understeer with oversteer is neither quick or good for the overall balance of the car. Correcting understeer (on the track) should be enough lift (and steering if required) to return the car to a neutral attitude.

Yeah; my family has a Peugeot bicycle, and there's a 505 that always parked near my high school, but that's about it...I wish I could have a chance to drive a 20x...they're some of the few FWD's that I respect. I notice that all of the cars you've listed are lightweight, relatively short-wheelbase cars, which, as I'm sure you already know, is one of the reasons why they're so eager to spin. I've even read in the american reviews of the Elise that using lift-off oversteer to correct understeer is a risky move.

Anyway, although I would argue that you don't have to be "very quick" to catch full lift-off oversteer in many cars, I won't argue that it's the best way. As I said before, it's a proven method of escaping understeer, not the proven method.

In any case, I think we can agree that GT4 doesn't allow you to use lift-off oversteer like this, regardless of whether or not it would frequently result in a spin.

Scaff
I would not argue with that, in the same way that I have not said that GT4 is 100%. I don't discount the fear factor at the 'ring, Nick Heidfelt have said that its a major factor (and afetr you're trip I'm sure you would agree it needs to be taking into account). One thing that I have found helps is to set the display to 'simple' and turn off the map, it makes a huge difference to the 'ring not having the back-up if the map. Give it a go if you have not already.

Yes, the fear factor is a factor (my fear wasn't as much of a factor on my trip as my dad's fear

), but too often I see people using it as an indisputable excuse just to prove to me that GT4's 'Ring and/or physics is/are realistic. I'm not accusing you of this, but there are people who do it.

Eh, I don't use the course map anyway; I first learned the course and memorized all of its turns back when Project Gotham Racing 2 first came out. After a bit of a learning period, figuring out how to drive on GT4's more realistic, more challenging version, I now know the whole course. As for the simple display, I just today read in another thread that it gets rid of the gear suggestions; is this true?

Scaff
I don't think anyone could honestly say that the grip levels offered by the higher end Racing tyres are that realistic. Much higher than an R1 is getting silly, apart from (and this may sound strange) the qualifing tyres, these remind me of the tyres that used to be used in high end GT racing for qualifying, grip levels far beyond that of any normal racing tyre, but with a lap life of approx 1 lap. No use for racing and little use in GT4, but they did exist and were used (the BMI DVD Fuji Fast discusses these).

I certainly wouldn't doubt the existence of super-grippy qualifying über-tires. :lol:

What I meant by, "so you agree with me, then" is that you seem to agree that the "understeer," or to put it another way, the car's unwillingness to rotate, remains regardless of whether you use N's or R's.

We're getting close to reaching total agreement... :cheers:

Scaff · Sep 15, 2005

Wolfe2x7
I just today read in another thread that it gets rid of the gear suggestions; is this true?

It is true, just go to Options, Display and change it from Normal to simple, it gets rid of the gear change indicator and you only see laptimes, etc when you end a sector. It gives a much clearer view to the whole screen.

Wolfe2x7
What I meant by, "so you agree with me, then" is that you seem to agree that the "understeer," or to put it another way, the car's unwillingness to rotate, remains regardless of whether you use N's or R's.

We're getting close to reaching total agreement...

I would not argue with the fact that understeer exists no matter what tyres you fit to a car, its a simple law of physics that the front tyres are more likely to attain a higher slip angle than the rears during cornering, so understeer is something you can't even escape from, just push back the limit at which it will begin to appear.

However I would say that the N spec tyres do not give me any problems with rotation (in cars that I would expect to rotate well), the R spec tyres are by their nature going to give you less rotation.

Your point on the 'Federal' Elise being a bit prone to nasty lift off oversteer is spot-on, but the original Mk1 Elise was even more prone, the number of these I've seen backwards in ditches, lamp posts, etc is quite amazing. Still a damn fine car, just a handfull on the limit, as most MR cars are. Same with the rest of the cars I listed, you spotted the common factors, FWD and short wheel base, equals rapid weight transfer under lift-off and the car trying to swap ends. In the dry its manageable, but in the wet its tricky to catch in time.

Regards

Scaff

Wolfe · Sep 15, 2005

Scaff
It is true, just go to Options, Display and change it from Normal to simple, it gets rid of the gear change indicator and you only see laptimes, etc when you end a sector. It gives a much clearer view to the whole screen.

Cool. If I play GT4 again I'll have to do that. The gear suggestion thing is annoying.

Scaff
I would not argue with the fact that understeer exists no matter what tyres you fit to a car, its a simple law of physics that the front tyres are more likely to attain a higher slip angle than the rears during cornering, so understeer is something you can't even escape from, just push back the limit at which it will begin to appear.

However I would say that the N spec tyres do not give me any problems with rotation (in cars that I would expect to rotate well), the R spec tyres are by their nature going to give you less rotation.

True enough. The only reason why I was confirming whether you agreed with me or not is:

Scaff
anything above an S3 and most cars suffer from very little understeer unless you go totally mad

...to which I responded that understeer is always a factor, even with the R's, and then you said...

Scaff
Understeer is always going to exist when you overuse the front tyres in relation to the rears, level of grip just raises the bar.

...so that's that. I think we're saying the same thing...

Scaff
Your point on the 'Federal' Elise being a bit prone to nasty lift off oversteer is spot-on, but the original Mk1 Elise was even more prone, the number of these I've seen backwards in ditches, lamp posts, etc is quite amazing. Still a damn fine car, just a handfull on the limit, as most MR cars are. Same with the rest of the cars I listed, you spotted the common factors, FWD and short wheel base, equals rapid weight transfer under lift-off and the car trying to swap ends. In the dry its manageable, but in the wet its tricky to catch in time.

The part I put in bold seems to be the source of our minor discrepancy in opinions over whether or not lift-off oversteer is controllable enough, and I agree with you that driving in the rain makes such maneuvers in those cars risky.

👍

niky · Sep 16, 2005

Wow... leave a thread for a few days... :lol:

I'd like to chime in about lift-off oversteer... I've found correcting understeer with lift-off works to varying degrees with different cars. There are cars that will not, for the life of them, trim their lines with lift off, there are those that just go straight into a spin (prominent are some of the cars Alfa and Scaff have mentioned) and there are those that "tuck-in" and correctly trim their line when you lift off.

Much as I'd like to say that Wolfe is wrong in saying that you can't correct understeer in game with lift-off oversteer, I'd just like to say that it's an exaggeration. Since I spend a lot of time in-game driving low-powered FF cars (which, most will agree, GT has slighted the most in its current form), I find that lift-off does trim the line to some extent, even on the most recalcitrant and understeer-prone of dog-cars. It still feels like there's too much understeer as compared to real-life lift off, but how much of that is due to physics inaccuracies and how much is due to the lack of physical feedback is beyond me.

I think it's safer to say that correcting understeer with lift-off oversteer is not the same/as easy as in real-life, and leave it at that.

Understand, though, that I've spend a majority of my time in-game in the last few weeks on "rough" or "dynamic" tracks, like the Nür, El Capitan, Infineon and Costa, where dynamic forces are more at work on the car. I think as someone said, it sometimes seems a rough road makes the cars react more realistically in GT.

I play only with the DS2, and what SavageEvil said piqued my interest. I've played GT3 and GT4 for a long time, and when I had occassion to enter a racing contest with a full cabinet set-up, with a DFP, racing seat and pedals and a TV, it enhanced the feeling of speed greatly... the kickback through the wheel over bumps in GT3 actually tried to wrench the wheel from your hands in generally the right direction and made it feel like a much better game than I remembered it being.

GT4 was just amazing with it. The wheel would buck over bumps and cambers, and I actually felt it was EASIER to recover from these than in GT4, as you were fighting the car's insistence to follow road cambers and dips, instead of trying to correct the artificial following of these curves. Driving a light, powerful car too fast over some of the rough roads of the Nür on the DS2, would have the car turning and jinking suddenly, and I would have to countersteer, whereas on the DFP, I'd be able to RESIST the jinks and countersteer VERY slightly to correct.

I'm still waiting to buy one, and I suggest it as a good buy.

Cheers to you guys... this a very interesting thread, but a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long read. :lol:

Wolfe · Sep 16, 2005

niky
Much as I'd like to say that Wolfe is wrong in saying that you can't correct understeer in game with lift-off oversteer, I'd just like to say that it's an exaggeration.

How come you always want me to be wrong...?

niky
I think it's safer to say that correcting understeer with lift-off oversteer is not the same/as easy as in real-life, and leave it at that.

I can agree with that. I said "GT4 doesn't allow you to use lift-off oversteer to correct understeer," but I didn't really mean never, ever, ever.

niky
I play only with the DS2, and what SavageEvil said piqued my interest. I've played GT3 and GT4 for a long time, and when I had occassion to enter a racing contest with a full cabinet set-up, with a DFP, racing seat and pedals and a TV, it enhanced the feeling of speed greatly... the kickback through the wheel over bumps in GT3 actually tried to wrench the wheel from your hands in generally the right direction and made it feel like a much better game than I remembered it being.

GT4 was just amazing with it. The wheel would buck over bumps and cambers, and I actually felt it was EASIER to recover from these than in GT4, as you were fighting the car's insistence to follow road cambers and dips, instead of trying to correct the artificial following of these curves. Driving a light, powerful car too fast over some of the rough roads of the Nür on the DS2, would have the car turning and jinking suddenly, and I would have to countersteer, whereas on the DFP, I'd be able to RESIST the jinks and countersteer VERY slightly to correct.

That's all fine and good, as long as you realize that such force feedback effects don't verify that GT4 has realistic...the arcade cabinet for the original San Francisco Rush had similar force feedback effects...

niky
I'm still waiting to buy one, and I suggest it as a good buy.

The friend from whom I borrowed a DFP is coming into town for the weekend, and he's probably going to sell the DFP to me for $80! Hurray! I'll be able to play Live for Speed again!

niky
Cheers to you guys... this a very interesting thread, but a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long read.

Hey, for all the hard work we put into this, it should be, like, stickied, or linked to in a faq or something..."The Definitive Debate on GT4's Realism" :lol:

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Gran Turismo A comparison across the series (part 2 added)