◆ SNAIL [Spec] Racing - Currently Recruiting for GT7 - JOIN TODAY!!Open 

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Thanks, did some circle track with rally,dylansan and Tom. Good communication! I made myself familiar with "rules" before posting. Not new to GT5, but this is my first league. I like the points system but truth be told I'm looking for fun not first. Anxious to get out there and run....

Good stuff patches0127, I'm sure you'll find some fun here 👍

I'm not 100% sure if Vol Jbolaz is able to run the Tuesday Parity Series, but the Wednesday Practice will be going for sure. tcrash opens a public room around 10:45 Eastern time, then the S.N.A.I.L.s start to flood in :lol:
 
I'm not 100% sure if Vol Jbolaz is able to run the Tuesday Parity Series

Yes, this is happening tonight. I won't be able to run it for the next two weeks, so Dabney will be.

After that starts the tuning and team series. Someone else is welcome to keep running the parity races for those that aren't in the tuning and team series.
 
I have a question to S.N.A.I.L.s seasoned and unseasoned :)

Would you have run on Wednesday night for placement into the correct division or submitted a Time Trial for same?

What we're considering is asking new S.N.A.I.L.s to run the weekly combos with us on Wednesday night. We can use that data to find the correct Division in S.N.A.I.L. If they can't make it Wednesday night, we could have a defined Time Trial that they would submit a time for, we'd then use that to place them in the correct Division.

If we went this route, we'd eliminate the aliens/cyborgs passing through the divisions and hopefully make the racing a little closer for everyone.

I'm still not sure what to do about relegating people who no show? We want to encourage people to let us know when they can't make it on Sunday, so much easier to set the Divisions up when I know who's in and who's out. We could ban them from the next race, but this seems a little heavy handed and could lead to people just dropping out.
 
I had a big rant about this after Sunday night. There may be people in the forum that missed that, but to sum up my rant:

This past week in D3, we only had three D3 drivers. The other six were either new drivers that are on their way to upper D2 or D1, or D1/D2 drivers that had been relegated, because of absences.

I don't care about winning (well, I do, but not winning doesn't upset me), I just want to actually race.

As to Wednesday, I can't make Wednesday, but I like the idea. How about either use fastest times from the previous Sunday in addition to the times posted on Wednesday to determine divisions for Sunday?
 
I had a big rant about this after Sunday night. There may be people in the forum that missed that, but to sum up my rant:

This past week in D3, we only had three D3 drivers. The other six were either new drivers that are on their way to upper D2 or D1, or D1/D2 drivers that had been relegated, because of absences.

I don't care about winning (well, I do, but not winning doesn't upset me), I just want to actually race.

And a fine rant it was ;)

As to Wednesday, I can't make Wednesday, but I like the idea. How about either use fastest times from the previous Sunday in addition to the times posted on Wednesday to determine divisions for Sunday?

I wasn't thinking of having every driver do the Wednesday night run or a Time Trial for Divisioning. That was just for new drivers, unknown quantities if you will. What I want to do is make a semi-informed decision to place them in a Division.

Using the previous weeks fastest lap average for Divisioning is an interesting idea, the people that didn't run that week would remain in their current division, for the newcomers we'd use their Wednesday times or a Time Trial for placement. One issue I can see, if a driver has connectivity issues, their fastest lap average would be a little skewed.

So what do we do about no-show drivers?
 
Introducing The prize winners:

Mighty_mopar
CircuitdeSpa-Francorchamps-4-1.jpg


jlbowler
CircuitdeSpa-Francorchamps_1-3-1.jpg


AJK-VAIL
CircuitdeSpa-Francorchamps_2-2-1.jpg


Congrats!
 
I wasn't thinking of having every driver do the Wednesday night run or a Time Trial for Divisioning. That was just for new drivers, unknown quantities if you will. What I want to do is make a semi-informed decision to place them in a Division.

Using the previous weeks fastest lap average for Divisioning is an interesting idea, the people that didn't run that week would remain in their current division, for the newcomers we'd use their Wednesday times or a Time Trial for placement. One issue I can see, if a driver has connectivity issues, their fastest lap average would be a little skewed.

So what do we do about no-show drivers?

No idea what do to about no-shows. I can understand the idea of wanting to give a more dedicated driver a chance, but... at the same time... I, for one, as a crappy D3 driver, don't want to have to put up with some really fast driver that couldn't be assed to give notice.

And to add to my rant:

The racing was better last week when there were only three of us running around in the Focus and the Supra. It was better this past Tuesday, when we had the Megane v C30 (it was so good, I posted replays), and it was better last Friday, when I had the little exhibition for the new Tuesday project, when we raced around in the C30, the M3, and the Tamora. This past Sunday, the racing, in D3, was just not exciting for most of the field.
 
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No idea what do to about no-shows. I can understand the idea of wanting to give a more dedicated driver a chance, but... at the same time... I, for one, as a crappy D3 driver, don't want to have to put up with some really fast driver that couldn't be assed to give notice.

One thought I had was to have an opt in system versus an opt out. That'll create a lot more work on my end as there's always more driving than not. Not sure if I like that. And it doesn't guarantee there won't be no shows or even people that forgot to opt in showing up.

It seems relegation is not enough of a deterrent and seems to cause as many issues as it's trying to resolve. Is a deterrent the right approach, is there another way to deal with this?

We could bring out the ban-hammer for a week. But to ensure the one week ban is enforced, and the Division Director doesn't have to deal with a confrontation, we'd have to remove them from the SNAIL_DivisionX PSN friends, more administration ... sigh.
 
I like the idea about just using the previous week's times as a frame of reference for placement the next race day. That way it doesn't require any extra commitment from many people and it gives you quite a few times to sample from and sort out some ability

also, I may not be able to make this sunday night, will try to confirm in a few days
 
I like the idea about just using the previous week's times as a frame of reference for placement the next race day. That way it doesn't require any extra commitment from many people and it gives you quite a few times to sample from and sort out some ability

also, I may not be able to make this sunday night, will try to confirm in a few days

For sure, the people that have times from last week, that will work just fine.

For new people, we have no point of reference. Which is why I suggested having them run in the Wednesday night practice session, which is fun by the way ;) or submitting a preset Time Trial time.
 
Prevention from racing next week is not too heavy handed a punishment for no-shows so long as that punishment is very clear and everyone is aware of it. Maybe one warning the first time, but after that, if people are discouraged because they don't get to race, they are really expecting too much. If they are aware of the rules they should not be surprised when they are enforced.
 
It seems to be a pretty tough market in the States now. Up here it's a different story for some reason. We can't seem to find enough qualified people.

Where, where, where, cheeb? I'm having a devil of a time finding anything Civil Engineering-related and getting no replies to any applications :(
 
Where, where, where, cheeb? I'm having a devil of a time finding anything Civil Engineering-related and getting no replies to any applications :(

I just went to CalgaryJobShop and did a search for Civil Engineer, got a bunch of hits. Not sure if you want to move or not ...

Had a couple at the City of Calgary too,
 
For a no show without notice, let them stay in the same division but run one tire grade lower. Just a thought, instead of dropping someone down a division and giving them what could be a competitive advantage, this would put them at a competitive disadvantage for a week as their punishment for making cheebs job harder.

Once I think about that, it probably just prolongs the relegation for another week so it may not be such a good idea.
 
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TL/DR

Keep division leveling simple. If a person misses, they stay put, but the divisions are leveled without the expectation that they will be there next week.

Leveling should be based on lap and gap times, not based on podium finishes.

There should be rewards for D2 and D3. They should not be viewed as punishment divisions.

Leveling should be based on what would create close racing. Winning or losing in a division doesn't tie directly to promotion or relegation.

Perhaps the divisions should run different car/track combos, or perhaps car/track selection shouldn't be done solely by D1.


The Full Post

Looking back over the responses, I say just keep it simple.

I say keep them in the same division, but put them in reserves. We've been balancing the divisions so there are about 9 to 11 drivers. So, really, we have enough room. If they don't show up, they just stay, and we balance the divisions as though they aren't going to show up again. They stay put.

And if we ever get enough people in a division that we fill the room, then we give priority to those that were here the previous week.

We had 19 eligible for D3 this past week. The most we had for any one race was 9. We only had 7 finish all six races.

There is something else I'm thinking though...

I don't look at D2 and D1 as being the goal. The reward for doing well in D3 shouldn't be you get promoted. The reward for doing well in D2 shouldn't be you get promoted. I look at promotion the result of trying to put people together that run the same speeds, so the racing is tighter.

As a result, we really need to introduce rewards for the winners of D2 and D3, and we should only be moving people between divisions if their times would make them competitive in that division.

Like I said, we had 9 people at most in D3 this week. Only 3 of us truly should be D3. Maybe, just maybe, you could say 4. Why not just look at the results, focusing on the lap times,and put people where they belong.

And then, at the end of a Sunday, Bob Binklow wins first place in D2. He gets an award, a parade, whatever. Woot! Good job, Bob! Yeahhhh!

Does he get to go to D1? Well... that depends. If his times are faster than someone already in D1, then yes, we should shuffle those people. Are his times way faster than the rest of D2? Did he dominate, or just simply win a close race? But if not... if he isn't much faster, well... then he stays in D2.

Make sense?

I know it turns the whole thing on its head. But... I think maybe we are just looking at it wrong. We are looking at it as though being in D2 or D3 is a bad thing. It is a punishment. It shouldn't be. Being in D2 or D3 simply means you are grouped with other like drivers so you can actually have a close race.

So, another thought...

Which makes this post entirely too long and I'm sure no one will actually read it.

Why not have the divisions slightly different? In the real world, drivers see F1 as the pinnacle. Yes, you may be good, but you aren't great until someone is willing to spend the money on you to put you in a very fast F1 car. So, until then, you are put into slower cars. IRL, F3, F2000, Kart. It may create confusion, I can understand that, but... I still don't see why each division has to run the same cars?

At the very least, D2 and D3 should have some input. D2 and D3 shouldn't be punishments. We shouldnt' be considered as inferior and less worthy. We shouldn't have to bow and grovel as D1 sets the car track combos.

Yes, blasting around on some leery, over-powered car might be fun for the uber elites, it might promote close racing in D1 (I don't know, I haven't see the times posted to the spreadsheet, yet), but it spreads the field in D3.

I think the Viper, on an appropriate course, could promote close racing. I think SSR 5 is just not it. Particularly since there is no need to practice it since we don't know how long it will stick around. Mind you, some of us can't practice it because we are casual, and Sunday may be the only time we get to race.

That 'Vette, though... perhaps on an Oval? Other than that, I'm not sure if there is a place where it is going to promote close racing.

And I can understand that D1 wants a challenge, but... there are three divisions, and again, D2 and D3 shouldn't be viewed as punishments.

One idea is using the three first place finishers.

Another idea is rotating selection. This week it is the podium from D1. Next week, the podium from D2. Next week, the podium from D3, and so on. (And it should rotate down, to keep someone from following the rotation and being on the podium for three weeks in a row and having selection chances three weeks in a row).


Sorry, this post is entirely too long.
 
TL/DR

Keep division leveling simple. If a person misses, they stay put, but the divisions are leveled without the expectation that they will be there next week.

Leveling should be based on lap and gap times, not based on podium finishes.

I agree, the simpler the better, my brain hurts sometimes ...

There should be rewards for D2 and D3. They should not be viewed as punishment divisions.

Leveling should be based on what would create close racing. Winning or losing in a division doesn't tie directly to promotion or relegation.

This is a very good goal.

Perhaps the divisions should run different car/track combos, or perhaps car/track selection shouldn't be done solely by D1.

This won't work if we're trying to compare times to do the divisioning.

The Full Post

Looking back over the responses, I say just keep it simple.

I say keep them in the same division, but put them in reserves. We've been balancing the divisions so there are about 9 to 11 drivers. So, really, we have enough room. If they don't show up, they just stay, and we balance the divisions as though they aren't going to show up again. They stay put.

And if we ever get enough people in a division that we fill the room, then we give priority to those that were here the previous week.

We had 19 eligible for D3 this past week. The most we had for any one race was 9. We only had 7 finish all six races.

That's not a bad idea, just let it lie. No muss no fuss.

There is something else I'm thinking though...

Uh oh.

I don't look at D2 and D1 as being the goal. The reward for doing well in D3 shouldn't be you get promoted. The reward for doing well in D2 shouldn't be you get promoted. I look at promotion the result of trying to put people together that run the same speeds, so the racing is tighter.

As a result, we really need to introduce rewards for the winners of D2 and D3, and we should only be moving people between divisions if their times would make them competitive in that division.

Like I said, we had 9 people at most in D3 this week. Only 3 of us truly should be D3. Maybe, just maybe, you could say 4. Why not just look at the results, focusing on the lap times,and put people where they belong.

And then, at the end of a Sunday, Bob Binklow wins first place in D2. He gets an award, a parade, whatever. Woot! Good job, Bob! Yeahhhh!

Does he get to go to D1? Well... that depends. If his times are faster than someone already in D1, then yes, we should shuffle those people. Are his times way faster than the rest of D2? Did he dominate, or just simply win a close race? But if not... if he isn't much faster, well... then he stays in D2.

Make sense?

I know it turns the whole thing on its head. But... I think maybe we are just looking at it wrong. We are looking at it as though being in D2 or D3 is a bad thing. It is a punishment. It shouldn't be. Being in D2 or D3 simply means you are grouped with other like drivers so you can actually have a close race.

I've never thought of D2 & D3 as punishments, but I see your point, Relegation is considered a step down, therefore a punishment.

So, another thought...

Wow, your brain is active today :)

Which makes this post entirely too long and I'm sure no one will actually read it.

I did :)

Why not have the divisions slightly different? In the real world, drivers see F1 as the pinnacle. Yes, you may be good, but you aren't great until someone is willing to spend the money on you to put you in a very fast F1 car. So, until then, you are put into slower cars. IRL, F3, F2000, Kart. It may create confusion, I can understand that, but... I still don't see why each division has to run the same cars?

At the very least, D2 and D3 should have some input. D2 and D3 shouldn't be punishments. We shouldnt' be considered as inferior and less worthy. We shouldn't have to bow and grovel as D1 sets the car track combos.

Yes, blasting around on some leery, over-powered car might be fun for the uber elites, it might promote close racing in D1 (I don't know, I haven't see the times posted to the spreadsheet, yet), but it spreads the field in D3.

I think the Viper, on an appropriate course, could promote close racing. I think SSR 5 is just not it. Particularly since there is no need to practice it since we don't know how long it will stick around. Mind you, some of us can't practice it because we are casual, and Sunday may be the only time we get to race.

That 'Vette, though... perhaps on an Oval? Other than that, I'm not sure if there is a place where it is going to promote close racing.

And I can understand that D1 wants a challenge, but... there are three divisions, and again, D2 and D3 shouldn't be viewed as punishments.

One idea is using the three first place finishers.

Another idea is rotating selection. This week it is the podium from D1. Next week, the podium from D2. Next week, the podium from D3, and so on. (And it should rotate down, to keep someone from following the rotation and being on the podium for three weeks in a row and having selection chances three weeks in a row).

This idea has some merit. At this point I don't see a downside to doing this.

Sorry, this post is entirely too long.

Yes it was, but full of a lot of good stuff 👍
 
This won't work if we're trying to compare times to do the divisioning.

Ah! Very good point.

So, I'll change my mind. All divisions run the same car/track combos, but...

Either... the top spot from D1, and D2, and D3 have a say in the car/track combos, or...

the division that picks changes each week, or...

Someone comes up with some other idea so car/track combos are not picked solely by D1.
 
Vol, I agree with most that you have to say. I have thought from the beginning of my involvement that the other divisions should have a say in the process of car/course selection. I would like to see the winner from each division have that chance for prizes, with the exception being those relegated from a higher division cannot take a prize their first week in a lower division.

As far as the car combos, I hear you. I think a challenge is of course the point but I am not looking for break-neck speeds on tiny courses where the car barely fits through corners by itself. There have been some very challenging combos but this week was more arcade challenging, at least to me. If I had taken the time to practice prior to Sunday I may think differently but I had zero interest in doing so as neither of those cars fit my style of racing. I now wish I hadn't left but I thought it would be better to leave than race and take someone out and ruin their evening.

That said, this is what happens though. As you'll notice, combo 3 is completely removed and combo 2 will be adjusted so the system does work. Just wanted to make note that I think you make good points for the most part, as usual.
 
Vol, I read your entire post too and I don't feel like it was too long. I've always encourage all view points to be expressed as long as they are expressed in a constructive manner. Although I disagree with much of what you said, your entire post was constructive and well thought out and that goes a long way. 👍

The part I disagree with most is your multiple referrals to D2 and D3 as as "punishments". I don't think this has ever been the case and it never will be. Although I agree that promotion and relegation doesn't always result in the the slowest drivers getting relegated, I think that basing promotion and relegation on anything other than results kind of defeats the spirit of competition that racing creates. For example, if we are to just look at lap times, then drivers will focus on setting hot laps rather than battling for position on the track (which results in slower lap times).

What if instead of promoting and relegating drivers every week, we divided our schedule into "mini seasons" of maybe 4 or 5 weeks. After the "season" was over, we would take a look at the average finishing position for each driver, and then promote and relegate based on those findings. I feel like doing this would eliminate the possibility of elite drivers mucking it up with the non-aliens and would therefore result in our divisions having drivers with the most similar skill levels possible. Thoughts?
 
Oh. I like the mini season idea. Use an average instead of total points at the end so you don't get penalized for missing a week or 2. Good stuff!

Edit: That would make the "new driver speed test" a necessity, though. 5 weeks of Esh in D3 would not be pretty. :)
 
The part I disagree with most is your multiple referrals to D2 and D3 as as "punishments". I don't think this has ever been the case and it never will be. Although I agree that promotion and relegation doesn't always result in the the slowest drivers getting relegated, I think that basing promotion and relegation on anything other than results kind of defeats the spirit of competition that racing creates. For example, if we are to just look at lap times, then drivers will focus on setting hot laps rather than battling for position on the track (which results in slower lap times).

I agree. Consistency should play a factor, too, as should ones ability to take advantage of a situation and pass. There are more than a few times recently where I've been faster than the car in front of me, and I've wrecked not trying to pass, but just trying to stay behind them without hitting them.

I think leveling the divisions should be based on lap times and gap times as well as place, not just place. And I also look at it like this. If you win D2, but aren't fast enough for D1, then you don't go up. Mind you, if you are fast enough for D1, then hopefully you won D2, so we can put that requirement in.

That is probably still confusing. So, how about look at it like this...

We do away with automatically relegating one or two drivers between divisions each week. Instead, we look at the lap/gap times of the bottom finishers of one division and the lap/gap times of the top finishes of the lower division. And move how ever many drivers there needs to be to balance the lap/gap times.

Does that make more sense?

Really, I look at it like this... if you can walk into a division and predict the winner (or predict the loser), then something is wrong.

What if instead of promoting and relegating drivers every week, we divided our schedule into "mini seasons" of maybe 4 or 5 weeks. After the "season" was over, we would take a look at the average finishing position for each driver, and then promote and relegate based on those findings. I feel like doing this would eliminate the possibility of elite drivers mucking it up with the non-aliens and would therefore result in our divisions having drivers with the most similar skill levels possible. Thoughts?

I've thought about this before. And I like the idea, but it has some problems.

I think there might be some people that want to move up, and feel that having to wait a month is too long. They may leave. :(

I don't know how we would handle people that join in the middle of the series. Maybe just time trails and place them?

If we did do something like this, I'd want at least one car/track combo to be static for the whole series (and it gets immediately changed for the next series). This would give everyone a track that they feel they've practiced a lot, and give them some reference to look back on over the series and see if they've gotten better, or if the racing has gotten tighter.

I remember back to the S2000 at Deep Forest Reverse. That ran for so long that I was getting better. I even won that race once.
 
First of all, I had a lot of fun last Sunday, I was bored of looking for a room where people don't ram you into a wall at the first opportunity they have.

I know I have only race with you one week, but I have a couple of ideas after reading the last few post.

I believe there are three prizes A, B and C. Right? Why don't you alternate those prizes through the overall winner of each division?
I really like the idea of placing drivers on their respective division depending on their previous week lap times, or even better the sum of the three qualification times therefore any variables other than skill would be ditch.

For no-shows you could keep them in their respective divisions with some sort of penalty lower compound tires, some ballast, but only for the race; on the qualification they run the car stock, that way they won’t be relegated to other divisions. That’s only if the placing by qualification lap times is implemented.

And hope to see some of you on Thursday night.
 
I will not be able to race on Sundays. Between working 6 days a week, and the kids staying up later because they are out of school for the summer, Sunday racing finds itself right in the middle of my best family time.
 
I love the idea of promotion and relegation being done every four or five weeks. Just do it the first week of each month so it's easily understood. As was stated above, if this is done, then the qualification and placement of new drivers in the proper division is a necessity. It wouldn't be fair to D3 to put a new driver with D1 skills and leave them there for a month.

I went ahead put together a ranking system for all SNAIL drivers and I have all the results loaded in since we started the perfect 100 system of points. This could probably used as a good tool when it comes time to promote and relegate each month if we wanted to use it.

I also like the idea of spreading around the decision of car and track selection among the divisions. I think maybe the rotating idea is the best proposal out there so far. I really don't have any thoughts to do it, but I'm open to anything that involves more drivers in the decision making process.
 
I will not be able to race on Sundays. Between working 6 days a week, and the kids staying up later because they are out of school for the summer, Sunday racing finds itself right in the middle of my best family time.

Hey Psycho,

Will you be doing any driving in S.N.A.I.L.? As in should I move you to the Associate S.N.A.I.L. section?

Thanks,

kcheeb
 
Just a reminder: Tonight parity racing will be in the R34 Nur edition. It doesn't have to be broken in.

It will be at 10 Eastern in the D2 lounge.

The idea is simple. We have five or six races, and after each one, we adjust the allowed PP for each driver depending on previous results. Everyone adjusts their PP using only the engine limiter. Some nights, like last week, the racing is fantastic. Since we will get onto the Nordsheifle this week, I'm not sure how things will go. We'll see.
 
Hey Psycho,

Will you be doing any driving in S.N.A.I.L.? As in should I move you to the Associate S.N.A.I.L. section?

Thanks,

kcheeb

Possibly, I was reading about that Cat and Mouse and it seems like a good way to blow off some steam.
 
What if instead of promoting and relegating drivers every week, we divided our schedule into "mini seasons" of maybe 4 or 5 weeks. After the "season" was over, we would take a look at the average finishing position for each driver, and then promote and relegate based on those findings. I feel like doing this would eliminate the possibility of elite drivers mucking it up with the non-aliens and would therefore result in our divisions having drivers with the most similar skill levels possible. Thoughts?

I think cheeb mentioned this in a previous post, or something similar, but why not setup some sort of time trial with a set car and track, like in WRS, by which each incoming driver can be gauged? Based on certain times you are then placed in an applicable division.
 
Oh. I like the mini season idea. Use an average instead of total points at the end so you don't get penalized for missing a week or 2. Good stuff!

Edit: That would make the "new driver speed test" a necessity, though. 5 weeks of Esh in D3 would not be pretty. :)

Yes, that's correct. We would need to "place" new drivers in the division that they are most likely to produce close racing in.

I agree. Consistency should play a factor, too, as should ones ability to take advantage of a situation and pass.

With a 4-5 week mini-season, consistency will definitely be rewarded. Those who finish consistently at the top will get promoted. Those who finish consistently at the bottom will get relegated.

I think leveling the divisions should be based on lap times and gap times as well as place, not just place. And I also look at it like this. If you win D2, but aren't fast enough for D1, then you don't go up. Mind you, if you are fast enough for D1, then hopefully you won D2, so we can put that requirement in.

That is probably still confusing. So, how about look at it like this...

We do away with automatically relegating one or two drivers between divisions each week. Instead, we look at the lap/gap times of the bottom finishers of one division and the lap/gap times of the top finishes of the lower division. And move how ever many drivers there needs to be to balance the lap/gap times.

Does that make more sense?

I still don't like the concept of looking at lap/gap times to determine promotion and relegation. Drivers should be promoted and relegated based on their on-track success, not the lap times they post. Setting hot laps is what the qualifying session is for. Beating your rivals on the track is what the races are for. :mischievous:

I've thought about this before. And I like the idea, but it has some problems.

I think there might be some people that want to move up, and feel that having to wait a month is too long. They may leave. :(

We can't please everyone. If someone feels entitled and is too impatient to stick around, do we really want them to be a SNAIL anyways?

I don't know how we would handle people that join in the middle of the series. Maybe just time trails and place them?

You mean like this? Sound good to me. 👍

(Wow, that's a topic I've held firm on for a long time. I still think that new drivers should earn their way up, but if we implement mini-seasons then that's just not feasible any longer).
 
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