2018 Holden Commodore(ZB)

[SlipZtrEm]

I get what you're saying, but you severely overestimate how much I care about this website. It ain't gonna be the end of my world if I'm banned or score some 'naughty' points.

I don't remember estimating anything. I simply reminded you of the handful of very basic rules you yourself agreed to when you joined.

And I enjoy how you and the rest of you continue to gloss over the fact that the Commodore was the best selling car in its class, the fact it was in the top 10 selling cars of the entire country. Sales were down, yes. But it still outsold the majority of the cars in the country. No matter how you want to cut it, the numbers don't lie. None of you have disproven that. You just keep ignoring that very important point and saying it was a failure.

It's almost as if you've come to a conclusion before the debate started, and refuse to listen to any point that proves you wrong and instead just deafly repeat yourself over and over again as if it makes your point more correct. Sort of like how you're projecting that onto me. "Nope you're wrong, none of what you say is correct *insert fingers in ears*"

*sigh*

It sold well in a dwindling class, in one country. On a global scale, it means very little. GM therefore had a choice: continue pouring money into a car with very limited global appeal, or import a car that it can sell in many more countries, that is likely to satisfy a substantial part of the potential market.

The F-150 is a vehicle similarly built for one market, but it's a massive money-maker and the best-selling vehicle in that market for 35 years. The Aussie-built Commodores don't enjoy a similar status.

Does GM know that there's going to be some people deeply offended by the end of the more traditional Commodore? Yeah, probably. It's also probably figured out only a handful of these folks were ever going to be potential buyers.

 

[CodeRedR51]

They sold 180,000 Mondeos in 2004, and only 75,000 in 2015.

Not including Fusion sales. But out of curiosity I looked up the Fusion sales from 2016 (found this) and they sold 265,840 Fusions in the USA last year. Sedans are still big over here, though declining a little lately as evidence that the Nissan Rogue beat the Altima in sales for the first time in 2016.

 

[YSSMAN]

The Ford competed with the Opel. Priced similarly, similar options. When the Ford was discontinued, the Opel was forced to compete against cars that started at similar prices but had far more kit available to them. You can't see why they'd fail? Especially in Europe in the early 2000s when more expensive cars were becoming more popular? When both BMW and Mercedes had just either refreshed their car or released a new model, whilst the Opel was a 5 year old design?

You're also missing the point here: Both the Scorpio and Omega were bad cars. They were never going to be able to directly compete with higher class options from Germany or Japan that had several shades of engineering behind them. The Catera was a laughingstock in the US, and that says a lot in a time where magazines were clamoring for a great American car to be happy about.

And I enjoy how you and the rest of you continue to gloss over the fact that the Commodore was the best selling car in its class, the fact it was in the top 10 selling cars of the entire country. Sales were down, yes. But it still outsold the majority of the cars in the country.

But the reality of that is, it doesn't matter. If GM and Ford aren't making money on the cars, and think they can make more doing something else, why wouldn't they do that instead? Cars and trucks come and go, that is the progress of the industry. It doesn't matter if you prefer a platform or a powertrain, it likely won't last long. In Australia, it was a strong seller - but the Commodore never performed all that well anywhere else it went. It was imported as a niche car, it was marketed as a niche car, and it sold reasonably well as a niche car. As I said before... Decades of marketing saying that FWD and AWD platforms are superior continues to ring through for a lot of people, and demands for higher ride heights and larger capacity rears continue the push for crossovers and SUVs.

I'd love to say that a large, rear drive, V8 powered sedan could do well in the US again. I really would. We might get something similar again as a Buick, or maybe as a specialty Ford, but the reality of the situation right now is that it is all hands on deck for AWD sedans and capable crossovers/SUVs. Don't blame the manufacturer, blame the market.

 

[Legro]

The Ford competed with the Opel. Priced similarly, similar options. When the Ford was discontinued, the Opel was forced to compete against cars that started at similar prices but had far more kit available to them. You can't see why they'd fail? Especially in Europe in the early 2000s when more expensive cars were becoming more popular? When both BMW and Mercedes had just either refreshed their car or released a new model, whilst the Opel was a 5 year old design?

Which kind of proves my point here. People didn't want an Omega then, they didn't want the Peugeot 607 either, some spent their money on a 3-Series, others a little more to go for the 5-Series, and the rest did well enough in the new Vectra. And now with even the cars one class smaller having the German premium brands causing them issues, there's very little indication that a modern world Omega would do any better than the old one did.

Not including Fusion sales. But out of curiosity I looked up the Fusion sales from 2016 (found this) and they sold 265,840 Fusions in the USA last year. Sedans are still big over here, though declining a little lately as evidence that the Nissan Rogue beat the Altima in sales for the first time in 2016.

Of course, because I used the European statistics, to point out the market change in Europe. They've probably sold a couple more of them also under the Mondeo badge worldwide.

 

[VXR]

You're also missing the point here: Both the Scorpio and Omega were bad cars.

Maybe the Scorpio due to its looks and older chassis, but the Omega was never a bad car at all. The Catera might have been, but the Opel donor certainly wasn't a bad car in its time.

 

[Spacegoat]

Ute, anyone?

No ute but how about a wagon?

 

[Pete05]

No ute but how about a wagon?

I'm still not a fan but, I'd have this before I'd have the hunchback they're calling the new 'sedan'.

 

[Dennis-GT]

Wow, the new Opel Insignia Grand Sport looks very good! The Sports Tourer too!

 

[YSSMAN]

We've got the Buick versions, the Regal TourX and Regal Sportback

Based on other things I've read and watched, it is pretty odd hearing how Buick is describing the car as "sporty," while at the same time, having a continued emphasis on quiet and comfortable appointments. Still, the cars look damn good, and the 2.0T should be more than capable to give the car an edge against the likes of the Subaru Legacy and Audi A4. Standard AWD on the TourX is a smart choice, although, I do hope they do a regular height (and non-cladded) front-drive wagon, too.

Here's hoping the GS gets some serious sporting bits in the near future. With the standard cars getting a 250 BHP mill to start, I hope they've got a big jump ready to go.

 

[Aerocoupe]

Why not just call it the Roadmaster?

 

[AudiMan2011]

I'm really not sure about this new Insignia. It might look a lot better than the last one but I'm just not sure if I can gel with it. I expected too much from the last gen and ended up not liking it at all.

The suggestion that there may not be a VXR version is equally disappointing given that new torque vectoring AWD system on the top whack 2.0T Grand Sport.

 

[mwoodski]

...although, I do hope they do a regular height (and non-cladded) front-drive wagon, too.

Same, but I highly doubt it.

 

[05XR8]

I'd wait and see what HSV do to it. Possibly could be a package exported.

Do Buick do performance in house?

 

[Silver Arrows]

I'd wait and see what HSV do to it. Possibly could be a package exported.

Do Buick do performance in house?

Think they just take whatever Opel or Vauxhall does for performance and rebadges it, the Regal GS looks the same as an Insignia VXR

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'd wait and see what HSV do to it. Possibly could be a package exported.

Do Buick do performance in house?

Yes Buick do performance in house...when haven't they would be a better question. GM seem to keep performance based in Cadillac and Chevy though so, what performance version would Buick need or have use for would be a question as well.

 

[05XR8]

Yes Buick do performance in house...when haven't they would be a better question. GM seem to keep performance based in Cadillac and Chevy though so, what performance version would Buick need or have use for would be a question as well.

Seriously, I haven't followed Buick since the GN and Skylark GS(the fwd version). Plus, the last Buicks I rode in were my Dad's '74 Electra and my cousin's '95 LeSabre(3800?). Though, I may have heard and seen here about the Lacrosse turbo? Even that, I'm not too sure about.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Seriously, I haven't followed Buick since the GN and Skylark GS(the fwd version). Plus, the last Buicks I rode in were my Dad's '74 Electra and my cousin's '95 LeSabre(3800?). Though, I may have heard and seen here about the Lacrosse turbo? Even that, I'm not too sure about.

Not sure about what exactly? The current Regal GS turbo or top of the line "performance" Buick you can get falls greatly short of the top of the line Insignia (the OPC) that it shares the same body/platform with. The Insignia OPC runs a 2.8 v6 turbo 330 hp awd, GS turbo is a more powerful 270+ 2L FWD. Anything that isn't the OPC the Buick is more powerful than by about 20 hp.

That's GM/Buick's own doing with the in house ecotec and looking at the Camaro 4cly turbo it could have a bit more power. So whatever HSV do, that's on them, just like whatever OPC do that's on them too, America isn't getting that region based performance version.

 

[Aerocoupe]

Do Buick do performance in house?

I know they used to from the '60s to the late '80s, but I'm unsure they do much if anything now. It went from the 'GS' and 'GSX' to the whole T-Type craze in the '80s where everything from the Regal to the LeSabre got a version of it; most were mainly visual packages with a standard V6, but a couple got the turbo V6 as well. As for the few GS' of the '90s, bar the '97 Regal GS, most were little more than just the highest trim with more standard features rather than actual performance (and I should know, since I own one ).

 

[05XR8]

Not sure about what exactly?

I wasn't sure of a Lacrosse turbo.

I know they used to from the '60s to the late '80s, but I'm unsure they do much if anything now. It went from the 'GS' and 'GSX' to the whole T-Type craze in the '80s where everything from the Regal to the LeSabre got a version of it; most were mainly visual packages with a standard V6, but a couple got the turbo V6 as well. As for the few GS' of the '90s, bar the '97 Regal GS, most were little more than just the highest trim with more standard features rather than actual performance (and I should know, since I own one ).

Yeah, I know about GSXs, GNs & T-Types. I lived most my years in The Bronx.

Just didn't know if Buick had a skunks works program today.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I wasn't sure of a Lacrosse turbo.


Yeah, I know about GSXs, GNs & T-Types. I lived most my years in The Bronx.

Just didn't know if Buick had a skunks works program today.

GM is always able to start up a performance brand that is an extension of GM performance. Buick doesn't need one like the V series or any of the Chevy performance stuff. There is no demand which is why I said what I've said.

In theory yes they have one, in reality and marketing it looks like it's non operational for the time.

 

[YSSMAN]

The last high-performance line of Buicks came under the "Super" moniker, which went alongside the SS, GXP, and V branding that everyone else was using. I don't know if the Buick engineers were doing that much more than the folks at Chevrolet and Pontiac, especially when the LaCrosse Super and Lucerne Super didn't exactly set the world on fire, but it was a performance effort nevertheless.

Mark Reuss has done a great job unleashing performance under all of the North American brands, and I see no reason why Buick wouldn't be able to keep it going - should they decide to do a GS or GSX version of the Regals. Seeing as how the usual combo has been 1) Add power, 2) Multimatic valve-spool suspension, 3) Fancy gearbox - it shouldn't be too tough a task. We already know the chassis is solid, someone just needs to start adding more power to see where the limits are.

 

[Turbo]

Why not just call it the Roadmaster?

In theory, that might not sound like such a horrible idea. The Roadmaster was Buick's most recognizable nameplate used on a wagon, so why not bring it back? But...

The new Regal TourX is mid-size. The '90s Roadmaster Wagon was bigger than full-size. Visually and mechanically, the Regal and Roadmaster are not very alike. If they do call it the Roadmaster, it would be like the case of the Mercury Cougar. The cougar was known to be Mercury's flagship big coupe for most of it's lifespan. But it was brought back as a sports compact and many were not in favor of the naming choice.

The other reason I can think of is brand image. Over the recent years, Buick has upped it's game, aiming to be a more modern marque making up-to-date entry-level luxury vehicles, instead of producing big, plush barges that old folks tended to favor, which the brand formerly did. "Roadmaster" would bring back memories of the old Buick, which the "New Buick" is trying to steer away from. If dubbed Roadmaster, people would associate the Regal TourX with this:



Which is certainly not a car that would make for a better brand image.

Honestly, I think the folks at GM should've just called it "TourX" and not "Regal TourX".

 

[05XR8]

TourX, almost sounds like "T-Rex". Making it a dinosaur. Which, brings us back to the big old Roadmaster...

 

[Turbo]

TourX, almost sounds like "T-Rex". Making it a dinosaur. Which, brings us back to the big old Roadmaster...

Interesting analogy my friend...

 

[05XR8]

Leaked pics of Regal GS

http://www.motoring.com.au/next-gen...twitter&utm_source=social&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[mustafur]

That's a nice backend lol.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Back looks nice even if it reminds me of other cars, I mean the whole thing reminds me of a mix between Mazda, Hyundai and then German brands that aren't Opel.

The side view and front 3/4 is the most ugly view of it.

 

[VXR]

I'm over it already. Hopefully PSA scrap this for Europe and badge engineer one of their platforms because Opel styling doesn't do it for me any more.

 

[AudiMan2011]

UK Insignia now has a range topping GSi model. Uses the same AWD tech as the Focus RS and is quicker than the old VXR.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...l-insignia-gsi-launched-torque-vectoring-tech

 

[mustafur]

God damn that looks ugly.