2021 FIA Series Race Discussion

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7th to 6th for 138. I think I can do better. Despite having left the lobby, @Zorz has received a message reading "not even penalized. How are you s rated?" so I think he'll be going again too.
I'm not going again. And I'm genuinely surprised I didn't get a penalty either, although I was desperately doing everything I could to avoid a collision. I understeered off Schwedenkreuz and had my foot HARD on the brakes and turning right to try to not re-enter the track at Aremberg, but I couldn't stop in time and took a BMW out. The game really, really should have ghosted me but didn't.

Edit - But yeah, that didn't exactly go as I'd hoped. I'd been struggling a bit for consistency over the last few days, but I thought I'd ironed the worst of it out. Slipstream threw a curveball I wasn't 100% prepared for and chaos ensued.



The incident we're talking about is at 41:50 if anyone is curious. Not sure what else I could have done there - I didn't even know who I'd hit when it occurred because it was all so fast. I was just praying I'd stop.

The BMW could have potentially avoided the collision though - I checked the replay from his perspective and he could see I'd lost control well in advance. If I'd hit the Mazda or Jaguar that I had been following, they'd never have seen it coming.
 
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I'm not going again. And I'm genuinely surprised I didn't get a penalty either, although I was desperately doing everything I could to avoid a collision. I understeered off Schwedenkreuz and had my foot HARD on the brakes and turning right to try to not re-enter the track at Aremberg, but I couldn't stop in time and took a BMW out. The game really, really should have ghosted me but didn't.
Yeah I did the same thing there yesterday in a practice race. Carried too much speed in slipstream, then went bowling at the hairpin. I'm amazed you ended up 13th after watching that first lap of yours tbh, it looked utterly miserable.
 
It's a shame since I was certain there was potential to gain a couple of places from others' mistakes, but these things happen, unfortunately. Hope your run in the Genesis went well. 👍

And to add salt to the wound, that disconnect cost me over 1,400 DR!
It was pretty uneventful race on my end, was following a McLaren pretty much the whole way but did manage to mug them at the end which was nice.
 
I'm really torn about racing the Manu today. Things have largely calmed down in the US but I'm not great at Nordschleife. Add to that, I just don't think it's a good track for anything short of endurance racing. I am jonesing for a good FIA race, though...
 
Went again. Bottled qualifying on the right hander before youtube corner, started 15th with the pace for what I'm pretty sure would've been 5th. Got up to around 8th on the first lap, was carrying a .5 penalty for not being able to see where the kerb was while following someone when I got forced off at the left hander after the uphill straight at the top of the circuit. Ended up 10th. Going again.
 
A pretty boring one from me today.
Door 5. Qualifying went well. Crossed the line in 2nd but pushed down to 3rd. Surprised it released us at the end of the Dottinger. Apart from a few nervous moments I came away with a CRB and finished 3rd. The guy on pole apologised which made me think he had been reset. 1st and 2nd were far too quick for me. The Czech guy behind kept me honest. He hovered around 1.3 seconds away all race. He meant I had to just think about keeping it on so it wasn't so relaxing but glad it wasn't anything more taxing.
 
This whole "multiple attempts" thing isn't all it's cracked up to be.

First one I did I tried again and again thinking the best will count or something. The last race of the day got shoved about so raged and ended up with no points. Now if I get a half decent result I quit and this race wasn't enjoyable so one was enough. Maybe tonight on US with my Viper I'll have more fun and go more than once, but I doubt it. You need at least 4 laps to make it worth while doing IMO.
 
Did the next available EMEA slot, managed to complete the session, but lost 202 more DR points in the process. Here's how:

15:20 Manufacturers
Repeated the same qualifying trick as before, running my out lap on BB +5 before switching back to -2 before the line. Felt there were some areas where I was a bit rougher than in the last session, including at the last corner where I clipped the inside barrier, but overall a fairly decent time of 7:05.406 (not far off the 7:05.344 set in the 14:00). Lined up 12th behind two McLarens and an OG Gr.4 Megane (haven't seen one of those in ages!).

Tried my best to keep up with the trio on Lap 1, but that wasn't easy with a WRX slipstreaming not too far behind me. The blue Mac later touched the grass on the outside going into Mutkurve which pitched him into a slide; I had the momentum, but not the space to pass, so ended up understeering into the barriers at Klostertal while trying to leave enough room. The WRX was also right behind us so defending that position would have been very difficult anyway. Lost another place to the Portuguese F-Type as he was generally faster on the run through the Stefan Bellof S, but briefly ran side-by-side with him after catching his slipstream down Döttinger Höhe.

Further up the road, both McLarens collide on the next run through Schwedenkreuz, handing one of them (the blue Sega-branded one) a 4-second penalty. This would help me later on as I continued following the Jag around, all while trying not to let the green Scirocco catch up to my rear bumper. The other McLaren with the Union Jack bonnet, already worse off from that incident, loses it at Pflanzgarten II after taking too much of the kerb; in avoidance, I was forced to go completely onto the grass for the next bend, but was surprised that it wasn't registered as a track limits breach. Slipped past the blue McLaren as he served his penalty at Döttinger Höhe, and despite missing the apex at the final corner came home precisely where I started.

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Tell you what, even with the disconnect and the Klostertal mishap, I've had fun with this combo. I wasn't initially going to do any of the Gr.4 rounds as I know how much the Mustang tends to struggle on technical circuits, but I was surprised with how smooth it felt in practice and ended up getting some solid consistency in qualifying. Noticed during my replay afterwards that it still seemed to wear its front-left down faster than other FR cars, though that could probably be down to my driving style or use of brake balance -2 throughout the race as well. Will be happy to end my FIA run for today as I don't want to risk any further DR drops. Probably one of the cleanest runs I've had on any of the Nordschleife-based layouts.
 
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Final effort: Started 5th (not a good lap, but still below 7:08), ran in 5th for a lap and a half until a Scirocco that had been fighting for the lead binned it and came on in the final third of the track somewhere. I caught up to it as it was unghosting and right on the apex of a corner, so naturally as I went past I got a 1 second penalty for forcing a car off the track. Ended up with the Aston behind me pulling in a 3 second gap on the straight and taking 4th, then seemingly moaning because I hit him on the brakes at the end of the straight. If I did I didn't even notice, and what the **** do you expect from someone in that position?

Got 139 points, which I think is 1 more than my first race where I was certain I could do better. What an aggravating combination this was.
 
Had a pretty uneventful race.
Managed to be 1st out in qualifying & held it to qualify on pole in the Jag.
Led the race all the way & finished 9 secs ahead of P2 in a Mustang.
Only my 2nd win in a FIA race & fastest lap took me to 50 giving me the bonus for that achievement 👍
 
Was really looking forward to do this race, love driving here and did plenty of practice, felt like I knew the track well.

Door number 13 (midd B/S), decided on using my Korean "Fox and chick" livery and made sure to have a large gap in front of me and behind me when starting there qualifying lap...And here it went wrong just a bit; far in front of me was a BMW M4 that made a mistake and when i went over the startingline yellow flags were waved and i saw the M4 getting reversing to get back on track, and when he was facing the right way again and was up to speed I was right behind him. I lost some momentum and first sector was 1.4 seconds slower then normal, being right behind the Beemer and worried this would mess up my one and only qualifying lap. Fortunately the BMW was quite fast and slowly got a bit more ahead of me. I had decided to not to be to risky during qualifying and make sure to have a smooth lap. At the end I was only about 1 or 2 seconds slower then expected and was seventh, satisfied with that.

Start went okay, gained one place and a fellow Dutchman who was in second place made a mistake and after coming back on track was right in front of me and after that was driving very wild, and had also suffered a 0.5 second penalty. I was right behind him and could not decide how to act, feeling it was risky to go past him because of his irratic driving. Fortunately for some reason (perhaps because we were from the same country?) he suddenly went out of my way on a straight and lifted, allowing me past him. Rest of the lap went fine, when going on the final straight an English Jaguar was behind me and overtook me using the slipstream, decided to stay right behind him, not taking any risks fighting him in the final part of the first lap.

In the second lap the Dutchman (driving an AMG) was back right behind and me and got very physical. I was stil right behind the Jaguar in sixth and after receiving multible taps on my rear from the AMG I made the consious decision to let him past, hoping he would then attack the Jaguar, and that with his erratic style he would cause problems for the both of them. And that is exactly what happened:D; he amde contact with the Jag and both went of track and I went past them and was now fifth. When coming again on the final straight I was only 1.4 seconds in front of the chasing Jaguar and it was coming closer and closer. I saw the distance between us going from 1.4 to 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 0.9, 08 seconds and then thankfully I was at the last corners, braked well in time and went over the finish in fifth, just before the Englishman in the Jaguar. not unhappy with that result, a very intense drive.

I love visiting this track (as a spectator) in real life and hope so much that I will be able to do so again this year.....I miss my holidays in the Eifel!

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Good race at the Ring. In fairness; failed in my guarantee to win, but the most points scored for the season with a very good final podium position. Started P2, but could not challenge the pole at all during the race. Spent second half of last lap just trying to build enough of a gap to keep the Mustang in 3rd off my heels. But he easily had 10 mph on the straight pushing me down the order.

But like I said, P3 meant I got my highest points total for the season. Might be able to push forward in the standings quite a bit seeing that many did not seem to run this race.
 
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Door 20, but 4 Cs so ranked 16th, Q4 so good start just need to keep it up, stay clean and maybe grab a podium......pretty please.

Well 1 sec even before crossing the start, yes cold tyres but no need to stop :banghead: anyway carry on. 2nd spins off so in 3rd would settle, get hit and passed, yeah he gets no penalty:boggled: another idiot tries to get passed, but can't control it and spins off giving me another 3 secs:banghead: Lose a place at PZ, get it back easily and come in 4th with the fastest lap. Had the race been clean I would have had 2nd easily and been fighting with 1st so really disappointing. Got decent points so calling it again, today has been a bad day to drive.
 
FIA Exhibition 2020-2021 Season 2
Manufacturers Cup - Round 7
The Nurburgring Nordschleife (YES!)
Gr4 - Porsche Cayman Clubsport GT4

Was again just hoping for a solid top-10. This race was going to be about qualifying well with only the one shot for a hot lap, and then not making mistakes while protecting your position.

Drew #20 in a nice lobby with @afc5150 (who I knew would be fast, in his alt account) and @Master Weasel, along with some other familiar names. A sketchy driver or two, to avoid if possible, as well, including one that someone gave a clear warning about... which was helpful as I needed to heed the caution during my race later.

Was first out of the pits for qualifying... that was nice. Protected the tires while warming them up, and put in a conservative but overall solid lap, with a couple of record-best segments and too many other slower segments, but still was satisfied with 8th.

Was running decently, pressured for a bit by a VW, who eventually took himself out on the first lap, but then lost the draft up the hill, and was overtaken by the two behind me, including one of the potentially race-busters. Sure enough, he was driving with poor sportsmanship, so I resigned to letting him do whatever damage he wanted to the cars in front, but I wasn't going to engage. One of his dirty tricks, however, is to back up into you on corner entry, to force you to stand down even further.

But I avoided any problems and was running 7th or 8th on lap two, with a nearly 5 second lead on the guy behind. From there, an Aston that had been bothered by the aforementioned guy, made a mistake in the carousel, which prompted me to lose my own bearings and make one too... until I was at a stop in the infield... :banghead:

By the time I recovered, I looked in the mirror and thought it was clear, but I nearly took out @Master Weasel ...sorry, man! must have had you cursing as you cleared me! But I held up the guys behind him and hoped for a tow on the final straight to finish better than I was... unfortunately, I lost his tow, and allowed another VW behind me to catch mine, which left me defenseless heading into the final sequence of turns... we had a good strong side by side row but both clean drivers, and ultimately I had to yield. Nearly got him again on the last turn, but there's just not enough room there to finish a move, so we finished overlapped at the line, me in 10th.

So I got that top-10 I targeted, though it was disappointing as I lost positions in the race and made a dumb mistake in doing so. The points are a little better than my prior 4th-best, so it might help me move up slightly, but I threw away 20 or 30 more with the gaffe at the Karousel. That's racing...

Gained a hundred or So DR, and kept my 99 SR rating. Could have been better, but given that it was a top-10, don't think I'm going to re-try it later. Been trying to stick with the 'live with it' approach and not expect to run again when things don't go perfectly. Plus, in a higher rated room, probably a cheap way to collect the 105 points. Good luck at Fuji and Lago Maggiore in the next round, everyone.

:gtpflag:

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Manufacturers Race

Had been looking forward to this, picked up my Green Hell trophy last week for completing a lap so felt very ready!

Entered the penultimate slot alongside @T_revisio

I'd been doing what's becoming normal now on a Saturday, and spying on a few FIA races to see how my own pace might bear up (there's only so much Bing with a 2 year old that I can take!), and on seeing the runs I knew my race pace was right up there, qualy on the other hand - I wasn't anywhere near as good. So I was really pleased that despite an inexplicable error (not changing up and bouncing it off the rev limiter in 3rd for about 50m!) I put in possibly my best qualy time of the week with a 7:01.9 to put me 6th on the grid.

Starting off, an M4 nearly loses it before we cross the start line, and I follow suit on cold tyres. Quickly losing the tow of the car ahead I got put under pressure, making little mistakes and eventually on the run out of Bergwerk (I know that corner!) a Lexus went past. Nothing else until down Dottinger Hohe when I got passed by a Citroën and went down to 8th. The race had been bunching up though. Into the right hander before the fox hole a Brit in a Viper picked up a harsh penalty when passing the Lexus, but maintained 5th. A Spaniard who had led early on binned it towards the end of the lap and we entered Dottinger Hohe four cars almost line astern with the lead car carrying a 3s penalty.

And that was it! Almost

The Citroën got alongside the Lexus and I had a run on both. In a lobby on Friday I'd been in exactly the same position, and moved to the right only to see the grey tarmac become green grass and just about managed to keep it going straight. So this time, in a very similar run, I chose to back out of attacking for 4th place. Could have probably bump drafted the Citroën to get past the Lexus but I just don't like that! So in the end came home in the position I started for 227 points.

Room to the right...
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Another one and done and thus ends the Gr.4 races. Done really well with the car - 264, 211, 254, 227. Ironically enough the lowest score being the only race I attempted twice - and it isn't going to count at the end of the season!
 
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North American Manufacturer Series, slot 1

Low-Mid A/S, S/S lobby

Door 8, Q2, P3

Always excited and confident to race at the 'Ring, but came away mildly disappointed even with a solid podium and my highest, by far, points haul of the season.

Qualy went well but we had a super-fast guy in the lobby who pasted the field with around a 7:00.xxx, I had a good lap but lined up in P2 a full 6-1/2 seconds off pole.

Basically took it easy, figuring a win was not going to happen. Other than 3rd making a spectacular pass on the outside at the left hander heading down to the right hand hairpin near the bridge (forget what it's called, but the one where you're an "idiot" if you don't lift - neither of us lifted :)) it was just a matter of keeping it on the road and bringing it home.

One and done, on the main account, but managed a 2nd place on the A/S account in slot 2, and a 3rd on the B/A account after being crashed out in qualy and starting 9th in slot 3. Going again in slot 4 as B/A is now B/S and I can't not race at the Nordschleife :D

Nice racing out there with the GTP crew, too. @KosmoKazi , @Master Weasel , @Geauxgreddy among others :gtpflag:

Gained a tidy 1,200 DR and maintained 99 SR

Gran Turismo®SPORT_20210109174156.jpg
 
Good seeing @afc5150, @Geauxgreddy, @KosmoKazi, and @Kermit_2142 in the first two slots with me. Unfortunately, in both races one of my tires caught the grass or something on one of the corners, causing me to bin it and lose positions.

Went into slot 3 more focused than ever. My goal was just to not to have any screw-ups like before and hope for the best. I qualified 11th in a lobby worth somewhere around 190 points. Lap 1 showed some promise. Passed a Scirocco and M4 that went off track, then a Cayman that I got a better exit on at Ex-Muhle, and finally passed another Corvette that served a penalty.

I'm 7th by lap 2. A Vantage that was ahead brakes way too late at the corner before the carousel and goes straight into the wall. I make my way past them as they try to recover. I maintain 6th until we approach the final straight, where that same Vantage goes for this very tight gap and makes contact with me, receiving a 2 second penalty:



Sharing because they called the penalty BS but what do you guys think? I flashed my headlights at them because to me, it felt like they pushed their way through.

After that, the other Corvette passes me as well but has a 1.5 second penalty from some other incident. Both cars serve their penalties and I take home 6th place. Took three tries, but I managed to drive a mistake-free race that also helped me gain several positions.

full
 
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In a repeat of the usual theme for me his season, I did all 5 slots, and ended up with a worthless score because I drove like a dumb:censored: all evening. In spite of doing well in all the practice races I did, I forgot how to drive and couldn't stay on track to save my life. Not worth even typing out the full results for all slots. I guess the only reason I'm so great at ovals is because there are fewer places to screw up :dunce:.
 
North American Manufacturer Series
Race 8
Slot 1
Door number 4, Mid/Low A/S lobby

Room opens up and woot woot, I have @Master Weasel and @afc5150 in the lobby again. Pretty sure these two guys are stalking me. Hit me on PM for my OnlyFans account. For the record, the three of us have never done well together. Usually one of us has a craptastic race while one or two of the others have a good race. I blame GT Planet because racers need excuses.

So, on to qualifying. Tried to space myself between a couple cars to avoid any problems with getting run down or being held up. Managed a 7:09.xxx without putting a tire in the wrong spot. That was good for Q5, two spots behind @afc5150 who was absolutely flying, a 7:06.xxx is respectable. He was 100% correct on his post above, some alien slipped in our lobby and dropped a 7:00 flat on us.

I spent half of lap 1 tyring to stay near p4. As we made our way into the heavy breaking zone on the right hander before the Carousel, the Lambo behind me got all of Greddy and sent me wide. I lost 2 spots.

Lap 2, pretty stagnant but close race until near the end, hogsauce made move nearly identical to the one masterweasel posted. But, I was able to get the position back on the straight. So, ended up with a P7. Other than me getting getting hit, no one in front of me made any major mistakes. It was good to see ALL 3 OF US GTPers, land in the Top 10. Raccoon at 10, AFC at 3 (great job on the podium!!) and myself in P7.

Race starts at 1:17:55
 
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[QUOTE="Master Weasel, post: 13324648, member: 137642"

Sharing because they called the penalty BS but what do you guys think? I flashed my headlights at them because to me, it felt like they pushed their way through.
[/QUOTE]

He saw a bit of a gap (that was hartly there) and went for it, braking very late, going over the grass and curve.
perhaps not the cleanest of moves as one should know that going to overtake this way that contact is inevetable.
So can understand a penalty was given as it was a bit to bold. (but not enough to actually call it like dirty) just my two cents...

and to quote E-Senna:
 
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Sharing because they called the penalty BS but what do you guys think? I flashed my headlights at them because to me, it felt like they pushed their way through.
Non contact sport and he knew he couldn't pass there without contact so dirty, the fact that people think otherwise is ridiculous
contact is inevetable.
So can understand a penalty was given as it was a bit to bold. (but not enough to actually call it like dirty) just my two cents...

and to quote E-Senna:

No if contact is inevitable it's dirty, no ifs buts or maybes. If it was a normal corner and he felt the move was on, he was too far back to justify it anyway, then there might be a case. Here he knew he was going to hit he did it anyway and he shouldn't be getting away with a measle 2 secs.
 
I took a long vacation from FIA racing this season but wasn't about to miss a race on the Nord!
Unfortunately I was very low SR S going in so I know I had to be careful.
Well... I had door 20. Waited for 1,5 minutes before going out to have room for qualifying, had only one behind me at the end of outlap so felt that's a good start.
At Aremberg there where yellow flags and two cars in the sand.
At Adenauer Forst a Cayman that I caught spun right in front of me and I went off to avoid. And to top it off I put a tire in the sand at Home Acht and spun. So inspite of having run fast enough to set pole in the C races last week I qualified as p13.
So the race starts and I concentrate on staying safe. But already at Hocheichen a British driver in a McLaren feels it's a good idea to go double wide. So I get SR down bit no penalties, a trend that carries on through the entire race. Other people doing reckless stuff resulting in me getting SR down.
Finally finished as p7 after passing a squeaky clean Subaru on Döttinger Hohe.
Costing me 6 SR and gaining 600 DR.
But it was fun, a lot of fun actually. Perhaps because I had nothing invested in the race.
 
I'm 7th by lap 2. A Vantage that was ahead brakes way too late at the corner before the carousel and goes straight into the wall. I make my way past them as they try to recover. I maintain 6th until we approach the final straight, where that same Vantage goes for this very tight gap and makes contact with me, receiving a 2 second penalty:



Sharing because they called the penalty BS but what do you guys think? I flashed my headlights at them because to me, it felt like they pushed their way through.


It was a racing incident, you left the door open when he had a run on you, he took the inside and you started squeezing him on the straight. You both committed to the same piece of track, he didn't back out once you started the squeeze, and you didn't stop squeezing when he was still there. I don't think there was anything dirty here.

What makes it a dumb incident is that he could've waited two more corners and he would've slipstreamed right past you on the 3km straight. But that's said in hindsight, in reality he was probably frustrated that he lost the place and was looking to make it up ASAP.

I think in future if you know you are slow out of a corner and someone faster is right behind you AND you're intending to keep your position - take the defensive line earlier. In this case, if you went to the left as soon as you exited the corner, he would've never got a look in. Easier said than done at the Nordschliefe though
 
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Non contact sport and he knew he couldn't pass there without contact so dirty, the fact that people think otherwise is ridiculous


No if contact is inevitable it's dirty, no ifs buts or maybes. If it was a normal corner and he felt the move was on, he was too far back to justify it anyway, then there might be a case. Here he knew he was going to hit he did it anyway and he shouldn't be getting away with a measle 2 secs.

Would not want to accuse someone of being dirty to quick.
This was perhaps a too optimistic attempt that resulted in a justified penalty, but it might have been an overtaking attempt, not a deliberate ram.
And indeed as Shiftinggears said; the smart thing was to wait for the straight and then use the slipstream to pass.

And touring car racing is a bit off a contact sport, just watch WTCC racing in the past, where some drivers joked that if they ended the race with their sidemirrors intact that it was not a good race. In fact, the move reminded me somewhat of how Gabriele Tarquini's used to overtake others!?
 
Would not want to accuse someone of being dirty to quick.
This was perhaps a too optimistic attempt that resulted in a justified penalty, but it might have been an overtaking attempt, not a deliberate ram.
And indeed as Shiftinggears said; the smart thing was to wait for the straight and then use the slipstream to pass.

And touring car racing is a bit off a contact sport, just watch WTCC racing in the past, where some drivers joked that if they ended the race with their sidemirrors intact that it was not a good race. In fact, the move reminded me somewhat of how Gabriele Tarquini's used to overtake others!?

I'm not really calling the driver dirty, more the mentality of the drivers. They think this type of move is OK when it obviously isn't. As to touring cars, they have far better control than virtually everyone playing this game and your talking about a bit of rubbing in most cases. You still can pick out dirty drivers though, like Nigel Mansell who only passed cleanly by mistake.
See the penalty system is broken and moves like this often work with no penalty or the penalty going to the wrong guy, this makes people drive worse which causes anger which causes bad driving which....on and on and on. It's fine IRL to say we will allow so much rubbing, but there is a limit because it's being considered on an individual basis. In a game you just can't do that so it needs to be no contact at all times.
 
You still can pick out dirty drivers though, like Nigel Mansell who only passed cleanly by mistake.

Hey! No need to throw ol’ Nige under the bus. That mustache was clearly limiting his vision for most of his career.

Like you said, it’s a mentality. These drivers we see are not malicious, but when you idolize many of these questionable drivers (Senna, Schumacher, Tony Stewart, Paul Tracy), you end up condoning their actions. Then a person playing GTS sees that and with only a tenth the skill of a professional driver, they attempt that late brake pass. That attempt to pass on the outside. And when they fail and take us out, we are quick to call it dirty, when it’s just someone emulating their favorite driver.

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I’m going to take this weeks season finales less serious. I think we all have Fuji down, so now it’ll be just to cut time with tire wear and fuel saving (the McLaren does well with both). As for the Manufacturers finale, I’m lost as to what approach to take this race. Is it going to be a strategy race on the short track, or will it end up as a hard fought sprint?
 
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I’m going to take this weeks season finales less serious. I think we all have Fuji down, so now it’ll be just to cut time with tire wear and fuel saving (the McLaren does well with both). As for the Manufacturers finale, I’m lost as to what approach to take this race. Is it going to be a strategy race on the short track, or will it end up as a hard fought sprint?

Yeah, not too sure what to expect in the final rounds.

Fuji, with those two heavy break zones and the variable lines you can take through Panasonic corner, may make this race an SR nightmare.

Lago, being such a short layout, with limited overtaking points. May come down to strategy and having a good qualifying session.

But will definitely try do them both.
 
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