BSpec + Chassis degradation experiment.

[Johnnypenso]

The rate of chassis degradation in the GT series has always been a bit of a mystery IMO. I often see posts saying people can feel it in a few hundred km's and other opinions that it's 10k kms + before it kicks in. An easy way to test this is with Bob using BSpec races that are spammed over and over. We can simply record our race winning times and Bob's mileage while making sure to keep the oil fresh to remove that as a factor.

Here are some rules I think should be in place. If you can think of others feel free to suggest them.

1. The car must be exactly the same every race. No changes to tires, parts, tune etc.

2. Same commands to Bob every race at the start.

3. Change the oil every few hundred kms to make sure it's kept fresh and you are never down on hp.

4. You must win the race. Finishing second will distort the data because Bob will be held up by the lead car at times, distorting the lap times. If you lose a race, try again, and if you lose a couple or three in a row, then discontinue recording your race times and start again.

5. It would be preferred to find an event that Bob wins handily, so he's clear of the AI as fast as possible.

This is obviously fairly unscientific, but if we get enough data points we might be able to come up with something useful. Obviously there are other factors, but over hundreds and hundreds of race we should be able to rule out the influence of those variables.

Post your data in Google Docs if you can, if not, any simple manual chart will do.

Remember we need 2 data points, mileage (start or end of race is fine, so long as it's the same every time), and total race time (rounded to nearest minute). The more data points you collect the better your information will be.

Sample

10,454 8:57
10,621 8:56
10,741 8:59
10,799 9:01

 

[GTPorsche]

4. You must win the race. Finishing second will distort the data because Bob will be held up by the lead car at times, distorting the lap times. If you lose a race, try again, and if you lose a couple or three in a row, then discontinue recording your race times and start again.

Just for clarification here, but what difference does it make when the car is still covering the same distance?

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Last I looked was up to 2,661 miles on the X-BowR and Bob is still laying down the same times around the ring as he has all along. Those times vary of course but so far I really do not see any drop off.

I would think to get more accurate data you need a race where there are multiple laps and one where Bob can be ahead running in clean air at least 2 laps then record the best lap time in each race. Overall time will always vary based on the AI changes and the last lap can be hard to catch a time on.

Edit: on the ring Bobs total time in the X-Bow ranges 27:4x to 27:5x usually in the mid to upper .4s. The race I just ran he finished at 27:45 even though his first lap was a few seconds slower than normal he still managed to lay down a good time over 1 minute ahead of the AI

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just for clarification here, but what difference does it make when the car is still covering the same distance?

Interference with other cars, especially running second all race, will distort the results. I would think you need as much clean air as possible to get accurate results.

 

[GTPorsche]

Interference with other cars, especially running second all race, will distort the results. I would think you need as much clean air as possible to get accurate results.

But chassis degradation is based on distance, is it not?

 

[Johnnypenso]

But chassis degradation is based on distance, is it not?

Ideally we'd run Bob alone around a track for for 50,000 kms and see what happens. Short of that we have remove as many variables as possible, so ideally Bob would start on the pole and lead every lap. That won't happen either so we go to the next best thing, races Bob wins outright, without having to run behind a first place car the entire race in which he may be capable of faster lap times but can't get by due to the mysteries of GT6 AI programming. So long everyone does the same thing, we get consistent results. Obviously the easier it is for Bob to win, the longer you can go the same race while winning.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Is there some way to see the mileage without exiting the race?

On the ring Bob always wins in the Xbow but every time you enter the event the lineup changes and that makes his time vary by up to 10 seconds or so working his way through the AI on the first lap.

Just ran another race on the ring and this time Bob had a total time of 27:33 one of the fastest yet so definitely does not seem to be any sign of issue with the chassis due to mileage at this point. 2,758 miles on it now probably 2,500 of them in that same race.

I know at one point early in the game I saw people who were claiming that when that icon turn yellow that there was a drop off. I tested it back then by running a car well past the point of the yellow indicator [about 600 miles] then I bought a new car exactly like it and put the same tune on it and took both to Motegi Speedway. Lap times were identical in the two cars.

 

[GTPorsche]

Can only see mileage by exiting the race, unfortunately. You'd think PD would have put it in a stat line in the tuning screen.

 

[kolio]

@Johnnypenso
What if you set up your test to where Bob never came in contact with another car?
Just make sure he has a slow enough car to where he cannot keep up? I know that would rob you of free testing money though.

I would think something along the lines of a Capaccinno Race Mod at the 24 minutes of Nurburgring.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

@Johnnypenso
What if you set up your test to where Bob never came in contact with another car?
Just make sure he has a slow enough car to where he cannot keep up? I know that would rob you of free testing money though.

I would think something along the lines of a Capaccinno Race Mod at the 24 minutes of Nurburgring.

It would take a very very long time. I've been running that race in the X-Bow for a few days now and it still has not had an issue. to do this in a slow car might take a week or more running that race over and over and over again.

 

[Johnnypenso]

@Johnnypenso
What if you set up your test to where Bob never came in contact with another car?
Just make sure he has a slow enough car to where he cannot keep up? I know that would rob you of free testing money though.

I would think something along the lines of a Capaccinno Race Mod at the 24 minutes of Nurburgring.

Too much work for testers, not enough BSpec reward to encourage participation. I'm trying to just use what people are already doing and gather the data. Everyone wants to win to max out their bank account and so they'll keep doing that until they are no longer winning. If we accumulate enough data points it might prove worthwhile..or not. Remains to be seen

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

X-bow is over 2,900 miles now last 4 races on the ring have had a total time between 27:33 and 27:35 1st lap on those races was between 8:49 and 8:51 with the most recent one being 8:49

btw the very first run I did in the car 0 miles was a 27:39

Based on data in another thread I would expect to see a drop off at between 12k and 12.5k miles or 20,000 km

That said in GT 4 there was a very noticeable drop off sooner than that. You could enter a brand new car into a 24 hour race and it would need restored after the race. Late in the race the handling became noticeably worse and the tire wear would become uneven.

Edit: Up to 3,145 miles now engine condition is flagged as yellow now but still holding 650pp and still running fast laps.

Edit: Getting close to 3500 miles now and Bob just ran his fastest race at 27:30 even after getting at least one penalty on the 1st lap.

Edit:After 3500 miles I could see a small drop in power. At 3822 I went ahead an rebuilt the engine. Still have not touched the rigidity and the car is still turning the same types of times.

 

[eran0004]

Edit: never mind, tree'd.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Can only see mileage by exiting the race, unfortunately. You'd think PD would have put it in a stat line in the tuning screen.

Bumper cam shows it in the left gauge.

 

[GTPorsche]

Bumper cam shows it in the left gauge.

That's Kms unless they changed it. Plus you can't go based on during the race. Has to be static, in between races to get an accurate number.

 

[eran0004]

That's Kms unless they changed it. Plus you can't go based on during the race. Has to be static, in between races to get an accurate number.

It is accurate down to 1000 meters. That's hardly going to make a big impact on data that's measured in millions of meters.

Just record the mileage at the start of every race and it will be accurate.

 

[eran0004]

Edit: browser double-posted

 

[Griffith500]

What does rigidity affect? I remember it being a transient thing, the car felt floppier and harder to trace a line with. Would it show up in lap time before it showed up in driving feel, or vice versa? How does Bob deal with driving feel?

Still interesting, nonetheless.

 

[TurismoBad]

I have only R18 at 3022 km (at yellow body rig. "started to deteriorate") - I'll do some tests but there's probably no difference with new.

When games had 100-300 pages manuals this would be covered

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

What does rigidity affect? I remember it being a transient thing, the car felt floppier and harder to trace a line with. Would it show up in lap time before it showed up in driving feel, or vice versa? How does Bob deal with driving feel?

Still interesting, nonetheless.

Well, in GT4 I had several cars that suffer from the rigidity loss. In that game it was very noticable. The car would become harder to handle, the tires would start to wear unevenly and the lap times would suffer.

Thus far I have not driven a car in GT6 that has over 1000 miles on it so I can't say what they may feel like but I am sure that they do not go to pot when the indicator becomes yellow in the pit service area. I have tested that myself and confirmed that a new car vs the same car after the icon is yellow drive the same and will turn the same lap time.

The X-Bow I have been using for Bob now has over 5000 miles on it. Tires still wear evenly and Bob is still turning total race times in the 27:3x range fairly often.

Edit: Correction the X-Bow has almost 5000 miles on it. Last race was a 27:31 so it is still doing fine.

Edit2: I just had a thought that could invalidate the implied results thus far. What if Bob gets better in a given car on a given track with practice? Unfortunately I am using the AE version and do not have a way to test a new one. So as a test I am going to run a few with the normal X-Bow R and see it Bob runs under 27:30 with it now.

Edit3: Ok after a few races with the other X-Bow it appears Bob is running about the same as he is in the high mileage one. Both the first lap and total time are on par with what I have been seeing all along.

Edit4: X-Bow now has 4862 miles on it and Bob just laid down his fastest set of 3 races so far. All three races under 27:30. I guess he had a favorable lineup or something there as the best I had saw previously was 27:29 and he had only did that 2 times over the last few days. Just now he posted 27:29 followed by 27:27 and another 27:29

All races use Push Pace for the entire race. I have been exiting and changing oil every 3 races as the PP drops during race 3 from 650 to 648 so each group of 3 has a different lineup

 

[TurismoBad]

I did a race at Le Mans but there's traffic and Bob tends to brake too late at the end of Mulsanne straight so total race time is not indicative at all in my case. I'll buy a new R18 and compare sectors with no traffic.

 

[TurismoBad]

I needed more data fast and there's too much randomness in races.

Here's what I did instead.

B-spec, Nurb 24 min, set the pace to "Push Hard" at the start. Take control and stop the car. Wait 50 seconds to have no traffic in front.

Note down times of sectors 2-7.

Did this for both R18s - one brand new and one with 3200km. Both cars have the same tuning.

Here are the results posted in chronological order:

R18 with 3200km - 7 runs

26.2 | 27.7 | 20.0 | 43.3 | 32.7 | 28.3

26.3 | 27.7 | 20.1 | 43.6 | 32.6 | 28.3

26.4 | 27.7 | 20.1 | 43.0 | 32.3 | 28.4

26.7 | 27.7 | 20.1 | 43.1 | 32.7 | 28.6

26.5 | 27.5 | 19.8 | 42.8 | 32.4 | 28.4

26.1 | 28.3 | 20.1 | 43.2 | 32.6 | 28.5

New R18 - 3 runs (got bored)

26.8 | 27.8 | 19.9 | 43.3 | 32.4 | 28.5

26.4 | 28.1 | 20.0 | 42.9 | 32.5 | 28.1

26.6 | 28.7 | 20.0 | 43.1 | 32.4 | 28.5

3200km seems then to have no effect on performance.

 

[acjy1985]

Well, in GT4 I had several cars that suffer from the rigidity loss. In that game it was very noticable. The car would become harder to handle, the tires would start to wear unevenly and the lap times would suffer.

Thus far I have not driven a car in GT6 that has over 1000 miles on it so I can't say what they may feel like but I am sure that they do not go to pot when the indicator becomes yellow in the pit service area. I have tested that myself and confirmed that a new car vs the same car after the icon is yellow drive the same and will turn the same lap time.

The X-Bow I have been using for Bob now has over 5000 miles on it. Tires still wear evenly and Bob is still turning total race times in the 27:3x range fairly often.

Edit: Correction the X-Bow has almost 5000 miles on it. Last race was a 27:31 so it is still doing fine.

Edit2: I just had a thought that could invalidate the implied results thus far. What if Bob gets better in a given car on a given track with practice? Unfortunately I am using the AE version and do not have a way to test a new one. So as a test I am going to run a few with the normal X-Bow R and see it Bob runs under 27:30 with it now.

Edit3: Ok after a few races with the other X-Bow it appears Bob is running about the same as he is in the high mileage one. Both the first lap and total time are on par with what I have been seeing all along.

Edit4: X-Bow now has 4862 miles on it and Bob just laid down his fastest set of 3 races so far. All three races under 27:30. I guess he had a favorable lineup or something there as the best I had saw previously was 27:29 and he had only did that 2 times over the last few days. Just now he posted 27:29 followed by 27:27 and another 27:29

All races use Push Pace for the entire race. I have been exiting and changing oil every 3 races as the PP drops during race 3 from 650 to 648 so each group of 3 has a different lineup

Now you have got the mileage up, why don't you do some hot laps in A spec and compare to a new one? I wonder if this could be something that has only been factored in to upset the player rather than the Bob

 

[Johnnypenso]

I needed more data fast and there's too much randomness in races.

Here's what I did instead.

B-spec, Nurb 24 min, set the pace to "Push Hard" at the start. Take control and stop the car. Wait 50 seconds to have no traffic in front.

Note down times of sectors 2-7.

Did this for both R18s - one brand new and one with 3200km. Both cars have the same tuning.

Here are the results posted in chronological order:

R18 with 3200km - 7 runs

26.2 | 27.7 | 20.0 | 43.3 | 32.7 | 28.3

26.3 | 27.7 | 20.1 | 43.6 | 32.6 | 28.3

26.4 | 27.7 | 20.1 | 43.0 | 32.3 | 28.4

26.7 | 27.7 | 20.1 | 43.1 | 32.7 | 28.6

26.5 | 27.5 | 19.8 | 42.8 | 32.4 | 28.4

26.1 | 28.3 | 20.1 | 43.2 | 32.6 | 28.5

New R18 - 3 runs (got bored)

26.8 | 27.8 | 19.9 | 43.3 | 32.4 | 28.5

26.4 | 28.1 | 20.0 | 42.9 | 32.5 | 28.1

26.6 | 28.7 | 20.0 | 43.1 | 32.4 | 28.5

3200km seems then to have no effect on performance.

Do you have starting and ending mileage?

 

[TurismoBad]

Do you have starting and ending mileage?

No, sorry. But I did nothing else with those cars after those runs so that's 7 and 3 times the road from the start to the end of sector 7 of Nurb. 24 hour course - easy to calculate.

I'll update later.

edit:

Sector 1-7 is 10.4 km

1st R18 Before - 3315,5 km ; After - 3388.3 km

2nd R18 Before - 168 km ; After - 199.2 km

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Now you have got the mileage up, why don't you do some hot laps in A spec and compare to a new one? I wonder if this could be something that has only been factored in to upset the player rather than the Bob

I strongly doubt that it is just to upset the player. I expect it would effect Bob the same as the player. I also expect that the performance will drop when it actually needs a refresh.

I may take the two cars out to a track in A-Spec at some point but can't say for sure. I don't have a lot of time to drive nor much desire to do so at this point. I only fired the game up last week to get the update and check out B-Spec. Once I found it could win the ring every time I decided to let Bob get me the rest of the high$ cars I was missing which he has now done.

Another issue with testing in A-Spec is that the two cars I would have to use are not exactly the same. The high mileage one is the AE version and the other is not the AE version. Both have the same setup and PP but are not exactly the same so the performance may be a little different.

 

[CSLACR]

The rate of chassis degradation in the GT series has always been a bit of a mystery IMO. I often see posts saying people can feel it in a few hundred km's and other opinions that it's 10k kms + before it kicks in. An easy way to test this is with Bob using BSpec races that are spammed over and over. We can simply record our race winning times and Bob's mileage while making sure to keep the oil fresh to remove that as a factor.

Here are some rules I think should be in place. If you can think of others feel free to suggest them.

1. The car must be exactly the same every race. No changes to tires, parts, tune etc.

2. Same commands to Bob every race at the start.

3. Change the oil every few hundred kms to make sure it's kept fresh and you are never down on hp.

4. You must win the race. Finishing second will distort the data because Bob will be held up by the lead car at times, distorting the lap times. If you lose a race, try again, and if you lose a couple or three in a row, then discontinue recording your race times and start again.

5. It would be preferred to find an event that Bob wins handily, so he's clear of the AI as fast as possible.

This is obviously fairly unscientific, but if we get enough data points we might be able to come up with something useful. Obviously there are other factors, but over hundreds and hundreds of race we should be able to rule out the influence of those variables.

Post your data in Google Docs if you can, if not, any simple manual chart will do.

Remember we need 2 data points, mileage (start or end of race is fine, so long as it's the same every time), and total race time (rounded to nearest minute). The more data points you collect the better your information will be.

Sample

10,454 8:57
10,621 8:56
10,741 8:59
10,799 9:01

After highlighting the stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with chassis degradation, there's nothing left.

You only need things to "match up" every "x" amount of time, at which point you test some specific lap times.
The only real necessity is that the opponents do not interfere with test laps.
Just my 2c, I'll be doing some of my own testing and let it be known whatever I might find,


This is GT. The chassis won't "go bad" at 752 miles, or 948km, it will happen at an even mark in km, mi, or both. (like GT5 and all previous GT titles have)

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Over 5000 miles now on the XBow and still turning race times in the low 27:3x range from time to time.

I also did try a few laps in A-Spec in the XbowR and the AE XbowR but as expected the results did not tell me much. I was actually faster in the AE even though it had near 5000 miles on it at the time but the cars were not setup for the track I had them on and they were a little tricky to drive. The AE car felt better than the other one but I suspect that is mostly due to having driven the other one first and getting some laps under my belt before trying the high mileage one.

So far I see nothing to indicate that the performance of the car has suffered due to loss of rigidity

 

[ODB]

Heh maybe I'm bit out of this conversation since I haven't run a lap of B-spec, but for the past year I have been running countless of laps on TT's and to me it seems pretty obvious that when rigidity light goes yellow making same laps times comes more difficult... It has happened me several times that I start to notice I'm loosing the car on some particular place bit too easily and I'm not able to beat my time, restoring rigidity has cured that problem... Now the amount of actual time I'm loosing for the car loosing it's best rigidity is really hard to determine, maybe something like 2 tenths on a minute long track, but the point is that making best possible time you want to have that car in shape.

And yeah, I'm not suggesting the car comes faster better the rigidity is, improving rigidity would always make the car faster and that's not how it goes (or is it, maybe on some tracks..) but the handling of the car is just tad easier when the chassis of the car is in mint condition... But yeah, obviously it doesn't effect B-spec driver and maybe I don't even have a point in this conversation, but this is just something that I have been thinking for a while and it's just odd that almost everyone else seems to think differently... I mean why the hell they but the rigidity light there in the first place if it didn't matter, especially when restoring some cars costs like 500 000 Cr.


Naah, maybe it's just that I'm so crappy driver that I let something like cars chassis condition affect my driving hahahha, naah, have a nice weekend guys

 

[Griffith500]

Heh maybe I'm bit out of this conversation since I haven't run a lap of B-spec, but for the past year I have been running countless of laps on TT's and to me it seems pretty obvious that when rigidity light goes yellow making same laps times comes more difficult... It has happened me several times that I start to notice I'm loosing the car on some particular place bit too easily and I'm not able to beat my time, restoring rigidity has cured that problem... Now the amount of actual time I'm loosing for the car loosing it's best rigidity is really hard to determine, maybe something like 2 tenths on a minute long track, but the point is that making best possible time you want to have that car in shape.

And yeah, I'm not suggesting the car comes faster better the rigidity is, improving rigidity would always make the car faster and that's not how it goes (or is it, maybe on some tracks..) but the handling of the car is just tad easier when the chassis of the car is in mint condition... But yeah, obviously it doesn't effect B-spec driver and maybe I don't even have a point in this conversation, but this is just something that I have been thinking for a while and it's just odd that almost everyone else seems to think differently... I mean why the hell they but the rigidity light there in the first place if it didn't matter, especially when restoring some cars costs like 500 000 Cr.


Naah, maybe it's just that I'm so crappy driver that I let something like cars chassis condition affect my driving hahahha, naah, have a nice weekend guys

A change in rigidity is effectively a change in setup; the setup you had was optimal for the mint rigidity (or at least, you were used to it that way), and loses that optimality as the chassis rigidity changes, in either direction.

Something to test is to re-do the setup at reduced chassis rigidity, run a few laps to get it optimised / get used to it, then restore the chassis and see how things go on the new setup.

I am still doubtful that Bob will care about such a subtle change in the setup - has anybody tested that? The difference between a human lap with a given setup difference, and Bob's laps? Chassis rigidity is a dynamic stability thing mostly, so something like roll bars and / or dampers, possibly weight distribution, would be a good place to start.