Nurburgring Lap Records Banned?

[CodeRedR51]

I don't think it's been finalized yet.

http://www.apex-the-movie.com/blog/2015/6/18/the-nrburgring-just-banned-lap-records

Discuss.

 

[SVX]

So the irrelevant argument is finally going to be extinct? At last.

 

[GTPorsche]

Seems like it might be temporary after a knee-jerk reaction to the VLN crash earlier this year.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

...it’s an unthinkable, if not wholly unexpected...

Great writing.

 

[Kent]

"irrelevant" is completely inappropriate, regardless of what the GT and internet racing enthusiasts say, the Ring is relevant in determining a car's competency. To say otherwise would be like saying a race horse's time at the preakness has no relevancy.

That aside...

The article in question is a horrible attempt to make KOONGNGNGNGNGNIZZZZZ relevant in the same supercar game being discredited.

I mean really? Konegzeg(?)lol has had the One:1 in media hands for well over a year and yet it's only just now, as the Ring is outlawing records, that Koni wants to step up and say 'hey I was about to do that'!

It's like all of us on the GTP are at a pool party and only Famine and Jordan jumped off the high-dive but right after Jordan's wife came out and said no more diving off the high-dive, suddenly shows up Kent on the high-dive saying, 'yup, I'd have jumped, probably would have done better too'.



I have almost no respect for konnegzeggg (lol, sorry, just don't know how to spell it).

 

[SlipZtrEm]

"irrelevant" is completely inappropriate, regardless of what the GT and internet racing enthusiasts say, the Ring is relevant in determining a car's competency. To say otherwise would be like saying a race horse's time at the preakness has no relevancy.

The argument that manufacturers gunning for 'Ring lap times has negatively affected their road-friendliness is both a) a fairly common one, and b) a fairly valid one. 'Ring times are irrelevant because there's so many variables it's utterly useless to use them for comparison. The track is so long weather can be quite different at two different points of the same lap. Then there's the slightly different lengths each manufacturer uses. Or how "showroom" the cars really are.

Amazingly, there's an easy way to find out how to spell Koenigsegg online.

 

[SVX]

I never found Koenigsegg hard to spell after seeing it spelt. Too much time obsessing over Koenigs, I assume.

 

[20832]

So the irrelevant argument is finally going to be extinct? At last.

Believe it or not, but lap times are a valid argument for a purchase for some people, although most of these cars will never even touch the tarmac of the Nordschleife.

The lap times of the Nordschleife have turned in to a 🤬 - meassuring contest anyways, so I couldn't care less. If they'd ban the testing of pre-production cars though, that would be a different story.

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

The argument that manufacturers gunning for 'Ring lap times has negatively affected their road-friendliness is both a) a fairly common one, and b) a fairly valid one. 'Ring times are irrelevant because there's so many variables it's utterly useless to use them for comparison. The track is so long weather can be quite different at two different points of the same lap. Then there's the slightly different lengths each manufacturer uses. Or how "showroom" the cars really are.

Amazingly, there's an easy way to find out how to spell Koenigsegg online.

You make a fine argument Slip, but it's still like a blow to the performance car community. Hopefully they sort something out, if it's a mew track or not...

 

[SVX]

Believe it or not, but lap times are a valid argument for a purchase for some people, although most of these cars will never even touch the tarmac of the Nordschleife.

The lap times of the Nordschleife have turned in to a 🤬 - meassuring contest anyways, so I couldn't care less. If they'd ban the testing of pre-production cars though, that would be a different story.

They never mattered because every single manufacturer had a different opinion on where the lap time started, so the argument was redundant in the first place.

 

[20832]

They never mattered because every single manufacturer had a different opinion on where the lap time started, so the argument was redundant in the first place.

The only lap, which actually a lot of the manufacturers use, is the Sport Auto lap. Meaning the start is at the exit of the old pit lane, and the end is right after the T13 turn.

Edit: The only lap that matters for me.

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

Another point I'd like to add is in regards to the manufacturers that have on sight 'tuning garages'. They will pack up their stuff and find a new place to spend their money.

 

[20832]

Another point I'd like to add is in regards to the manufacturers that have on sight 'tuning garages'. They will pack up their stuff and find a new place to spend their money.

The Nordschleife still offers are very particular set of variables that no other track can really offer, therefore I wouldn't be too much concerned about the fact that manufacturers like Aston Martin, Jaguar, BMW and so on will move their development facilities.

Just to put this into perspective, one lap of the Nordschleife equals about 200km on the real road in terms of wear and tear.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I wish they'd banned these times long ago.

 

[Famine]

The argument that manufacturers gunning for 'Ring lap times has negatively affected their road-friendliness is both a) a fairly common one, and b) a fairly valid one. 'Ring times are irrelevant because there's so many variables it's utterly useless to use them for comparison. The track is so long weather can be quite different at two different points of the same lap. Then there's the slightly different lengths each manufacturer uses. Or how "showroom" the cars really are.

And there's no single official timing body and never has been - outside of race events.

In effect it's always been a comparison of cars you can't buy driven by people who aren't you on effectively different tracks in different weathers according to stopwatches held by different people.

 

[20832]

All you guys do is talk about the weather, but that would happen with any other track as well! If you'd do it on the Hockenheimring or VIR or Laguna Seca or Senora or whereever, you would never had the exact same conditions with every test.

So, instead of just making all of this down to the track being in the wrong location, shouldn't we be talking about the stupidity of lap time records in general?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Or perhaps more importantly, the stupidity of people who take lap records seriously.

 

[20832]

Or perhaps more importantly, the stupidity of people who take lap records seriously.

Well, that bound to happen, because everything turns into a competition these days. Horsepower, P2W ratio, lap times, acceleration, price, etc.
Always has, always will be.

Because at the end of the day, lap times are tools for marketing and bragging rights, and if we don't want this to turn into a competition or something people use as arguments against or for a car, then I don't see a reason to set up lap times/records at all.

 

[kikie]

That is an unexpected surprise.

 

[Famine]

All you guys do is talk about the weather, but that would happen with any other track as well! If you'd do it on the Hockenheimring or VIR or Laguna Seca or Senora or whereever, you would never had the exact same conditions with every test.

Indeed - but the 'Ring has different weather across it.

Largely when it rains at Silverstone it rains at all of it because the entire site is only just over a square mile, but when it rains at the 'Ring it may be raining at Adenauer but perfect sunshine at Dottinger...

A 23 degree sunny day at Silverstone may be a few tenths faster than a 22 degree sunny day at Silverstone, but the 'Ring could be seconds slower at one part of it compared to another part on the same day...

 

[20832]

Indeed - but the 'Ring has different weather across it.

Largely when it rains at Silverstone it rains at all of it because the entire site is only just over a square mile, but when it rains at the 'Ring it may be raining at Adenauer but perfect sunshine at Dottinger...

A 23 degree sunny day at Silverstone may be a few tenths faster than a 22 degree sunny day at Silverstone, but the 'Ring could be seconds slower at one part of it compared to another part on the same day...

Yeah, but to have a proper lap time, every lap needs to be recorded at this temperature, same weather, otherwise you could argue the track was faster because of xy parameter.

 

[Famine]

Yeah, but to have a proper lap time, every lap needs to be recorded at this temperature, same weather, otherwise you could argue the track was faster because of xy parameter.

STP

But again, for small tracks like Silverstone, you're looking at tenths of a second difference between perfect conditions and almost perfect conditions - and they are broadly the same across the whole track. It might be that one corner is a bit more perfect than the others, but it's worth tenths on a 90 seconds lap.

At the 'Ring you could conceivably have perfect conditions at one corner but snow on 40% of the circuit.


However, ultimately no one lap time tells anyone anything about relative performance. The 'Ring has been used because it's an actual road and simulates actual road conditions minus actual policemen, but its time is of no more relevance than a Silverstone lap or a Top Gear Power Lap...

 

[20832]

[...]it's an actual road and simulates actual road conditions minus actual policemen

Which is why I'm not even mad about the fact that they've banned the lap record hunt, and these unique properties of this track are why I think it should be primarely used as a testing facility for pre-production vehicle (and vehicle parts)

 

[eran0004]

So Koenigsegg builds the fastest production car ever, but hasn't got anywhere to drive it.

Hypercars are so overrated.

 

[Northstar]

Another point I'd like to add is in regards to the manufacturers that have on sight 'tuning garages'. They will pack up their stuff and find a new place to spend their money.

I don't think those will be affected too much as most of the testing they do is just that, testing.

 

[The Chosen One]

Well, this was a knee-jerk reaction to the VLN accident...
But the spectator that was killed was too close to the track.

Instead of banning this all together, why not just halt the record attempts for about 6 months or so to build up/repair/make new safety fences along the track?

 

[kikie]

Spa is notorius for it's micro climates accross the track.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

They should all be gunning for the Targa Florio lap record.

 

[homeforsummer]

I can't believe nobody else has mentioned this yet. Partly because it's obvious, and partly because it's logical. They haven't banned setting laps, they've just made the setting of laps pointless.

TL;DR - Lap timing is still allowed. But there are speed limits in place around the circuit, even for non-racing activity, that make setting a lap a waste of time.

 

[CodeRedR51]

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/06/nurburgring-ceo-officially-confirms.html