I don't know why they bother designing the game for the controller when they handicap it's performance compared to a wheel. I mean I knew guys with wheels were faster but I never knew how much of an advantage they really had as the problem was reduced by car tuning. I could keep up with most guys. I saw the gap start to widen during gt academy when only the guys with wheels could take some sweeping turns flat out while I had to lift. It was also apparent with some new cars during the no tuning seasonal events. However it has really started to annoy when running race cars at Indy with no tuning. Guys with wheels were going flat out, while I had to lift to make the corners even with the highest controller sensitivity. I was over 4 seconds slower..that is a lot. I could handle max 1 second, but 4? That's ridiculous. Doesn't make sense to play gt6 anymore or even consider buying gt7 when they are not treating the controller in the same way as the wheel. They should at least give the controller and wheel a similar performance level so people can be competitive.
Does not make sense to use a controller
- Thread starter mpcp27
- 90 comments
- 7,124 views
- 5,635
- North Dakota
- GTP_Cowboy
- RacingCowboy570
The people who use wheels are either graduated from the controller or want to be more realistic. Some people are actually better off using a wheel or a controller. It would make sense to make both about the same, but depending on how good of a driver you are, it still probably won't be equal.
- 2,011
- Melbourne
- MJTbreww
- GTP MJTbreww
There are some very fast controller users out there you know. Anyways you can't seriously blame the game because you with a controller cannot keep up with wheel users, of course they're gonna be faster look at all the control they have and extra they spend. Like Cowboy Ace said most wheel users came from a controller, I did after using one since the very start (GT3 for me) I began this year. Try and find a controller race league or something.
Plus imagine if GT wasn't designed for controllers, how many people would not be playing it? I know for a fact out of all my friends very few have a wheel.
- 15,465
- Orange County, NY
- GTP_GT916
- Nii916
People like @ItsAllAboutWins and @MadMax can definitely contest this...
- 3,094
- USA
- ItsAllAboutWins
When you're a fast driver, you execute regardless the peripheral. When you're not, you make excuses.
Edit: I worded the above incorrectly. It implies that if you're not fast, you make excuses. My apologies. What I meant is most people that are generally above par (or alien if you will) manage to do well regardless the peripheral.
Edit: I worded the above incorrectly. It implies that if you're not fast, you make excuses. My apologies. What I meant is most people that are generally above par (or alien if you will) manage to do well regardless the peripheral.
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Fellas,
It's not about making excuses..You need to read my post properly. I stated that I can be as fast as guys on a wheel when I tune. I presented proof on a track where there is no need to brake and no tuning was allowed. The car would not hold the corner while guys on the wheel could. So all this talk about people who are fast will execute etc. doesnt apply. Tryy for yourself if you don't believe me. I am saying the turning ability of the controller should be the same as the wheel.
It's not about making excuses..You need to read my post properly. I stated that I can be as fast as guys on a wheel when I tune. I presented proof on a track where there is no need to brake and no tuning was allowed. The car would not hold the corner while guys on the wheel could. So all this talk about people who are fast will execute etc. doesnt apply. Tryy for yourself if you don't believe me. I am saying the turning ability of the controller should be the same as the wheel.
- 3,094
- USA
- ItsAllAboutWins
I went from a wheel to a controller. Both have their advantages, but what happens if you take tuning out of the equation??
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/week/86/
Click the results. Pasm went to the Dutch GT Academy.
Heres more of non tuning events
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/results/78/
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/results/76/
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/results/70/
There's more but I validate my point enough.
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/week/86/
Click the results. Pasm went to the Dutch GT Academy.
Heres more of non tuning events
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/results/78/
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/results/76/
http://wrs.gtplanet.net/GT6/results/70/
There's more but I validate my point enough.
LeGeNd-1
Premium
- 7,249
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
The problem is real life cars are driven with a wheel, not controller. So as GT's physics becomes more realistic, so will the difference in gap between wheel and controllers. Of course there are some aliens who are super fast with DS3, but they are exceptions.
If you want wheel and controller to be equal, you pretty much want GT1-2 physics. And people who are clamoring for more realism will be pissed because the game is not improving.
If you want wheel and controller to be equal, you pretty much want GT1-2 physics. And people who are clamoring for more realism will be pissed because the game is not improving.
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- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
While I agree with you, I don't know a single person who doesn't want realistic physics in a modern simcade race game. I'd say if PD came out tomorrow with a game that was ultra realistic in the sense of everything but physics and went 15 years back on it...people wouldn't be happy because they don't want to play an arcade racer that you see at the mall.
LeGeNd-1
Premium
- 7,249
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
I agree too. If you buy a simcade/sim game you pretty much need a wheel nowadays. You can play with a controller, but you know full well that you are not getting the full experience and won't be setting blazing laptimes.
I enjoy arcade games with controllers too, but asking GT to treat controller the same as wheel is a weird request. In my opinion PD have done a wonderful job already. I don't know any other sim that is as optimized as GT with a controller.
- 13,729
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Even if the controller and wheel are exactly equal, with no assists or anything for the controller, a wheel is faster. Technically you can do the exact same inputs with a controller that you do with a wheel, but the skill level to actually execute that is so high that very, very few people can physically manage it. Some can, but the rest of us who don't have hyper-sensitive finger muscles are boned.
So given that even if the controller and wheel are made equal, they're not really equal simply due to the physicality of how they're set up, why shouldn't the developer make some adjustments to the controller to make it easier for Joe Random to drive? Driving with an unassisted controller is a frustrating nightmare for Joe Random, the car is all herky-jerky and doesn't do what he wants it to.
It comes down to understanding that a controller is a tool designed for everybody to use. That means it has limitations, and if you choose to use it then you're going to have to deal with those. Just like if you ride the bus, you have to deal with the fact that it doesn't go exactly where you want it to, and you have to breathe everyone else's farts at the same time.
If you want to get where you're going the way you want, you need to buy a car. If you want the best experience playing a racing game, you need a specialised controller. You need a wheel. It sucks, but that's how it is. As far as GT goes, you're in luck. A DFGT feels like a toy, but it's an extremely capable wheel at a very cheap price. With it you can compete on equal terms with any other wheel out there. A DFGT costs the price of a game, and you'll find that GT is basically a whole new game with it. It's a good deal.
If you want to race with the best, you need a wheel. Stop complaining that your swiss army knife is crap for cutting logs, and buy a saw. You'll be glad you did.
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Well it only goes to prove like all other racing games on console platform, that they're catering to a large section of people that are casual players. That can obviously beat the game easily enough with a DS3 or equivalent, and that is realistically enough reason to keep doing this because it usually seems to be a bigger portion of sales. Unless your an Assetto Corsa or PCars player, you're probably playing a GT or FM or DC where that division doesn't matter much. Due to those games being more advertised and viewed by the public, also being around for such a long period of time that people know via word of mouth or in store demo.
However, if you end up wandering from the casual to this side, you tend to come to a quick realization that your not adequately freakish (no offense aliens) or capable enough to use a DS3 like you thought for what is not as simple of a game as first thought.
- 3,094
- USA
- ItsAllAboutWins
For the record, just because a wheel can turn in deeper doesn't mean it makes them faster. That means at full lock on a turn, they are scrubbing more speed. The only instance a wheel will benefit from full lock is on slow rolling sharp turns like on Côte and turn 1 of Spa.
Your argument will now be, wheel users can take Eau Rogue at Spa flat out while ds3 must lift. Not the case. Left rear in grass at the bottom will slide you into the corner. Yes it is unpredictable, no it is not fair, but as a ds3 'impaired' user, you must find ways around the boundaries.
I am not saying a ds3 is comparable to a wheel, because it is not. What i am saying is, you can be competitive if you take the time to learn how to be.
Now throttle and braking input is a horse of another color.
Your argument will now be, wheel users can take Eau Rogue at Spa flat out while ds3 must lift. Not the case. Left rear in grass at the bottom will slide you into the corner. Yes it is unpredictable, no it is not fair, but as a ds3 'impaired' user, you must find ways around the boundaries.
I am not saying a ds3 is comparable to a wheel, because it is not. What i am saying is, you can be competitive if you take the time to learn how to be.
Now throttle and braking input is a horse of another color.
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- 76
- Australia
- pcvolvoman
Both have advantages, for one thing, since switching to a wheel a few months ago I've found a lot of corners easier but those that demand quick lock-to-lock input have required considerable adjustment due to the speed at which you can execute this with a ds3.
You can also look at the argument in a different way, you will find that most people who go out and buy a wheel and come up with a setup for it have a tendency to be more serious racers who spend a lot of time practicing.
Let's not even start with the fact that you're talking about a game that tries to also sell itself as a simulator, there's a reason we have not and will not see a car on the road with a joystick in front of the driver...
You can also look at the argument in a different way, you will find that most people who go out and buy a wheel and come up with a setup for it have a tendency to be more serious racers who spend a lot of time practicing.
Let's not even start with the fact that you're talking about a game that tries to also sell itself as a simulator, there's a reason we have not and will not see a car on the road with a joystick in front of the driver...
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The wheels can definitely modulate the gas, brakes and steering inputs much better and make the micro adjustments needed. DS3 users can get a bit more variable control by using triggers and not the X and O buttons, but will still lack the linear control range of a wheel setup. And picking one or two isolated cases in GT Academy or TT where a DS3 is in the top 10 doesn't prove equivalence.
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
To answer "I don't know why they bother designing the game for the controller when they handicap it's performance compared to a wheel", it's pretty simple. Not everyone is prepared to throw hundred, if not thousands of dollars at a peripheral for a game.
As for the advantage, I won't argue for or against, but I haven't found myself to be hampered by using the controller. Whether online in an open lobby or racing in a league, I hold my own.
- 2,065
- San Antonio, Texas
- Obi-Tonobi
Disagree here, I know people on a controller that can beat many on wheels. Controller has some advantages. I find that recovering from a slip is easier with the controller. Let go of it and the car straightens out. You can also let go of it and it holds a straight line. My wheel will not let you do that. I also found it easier to use on some of the seasonal events over my wheel. I found that I could use the controller easier once I set the buttons up like it is on GTA V. I could not gas and brake with the right joystick very well. I do not race with a controller very much. Been using a DFGT since GT4.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 6,968
- South Africa
...This argument reminds me of something I read a few years back - it was about the fighting game scene. Some of the most god-like gamers all used proper joysticks; if you were unfortunate, met a stick user online and you only made do with a DS3, you were pummeled. It was... I think, Street Fighter 4. Yeah I think it was that. Or was it something else?? Hmm...
- 669
- Italy, Sardinia
Realism = wheel
It's just a fact, there isn't a real way to make it equal.
Yeah you can find aliens on ds3 too, but you just have to look at any time trial to see the truth.
People talking about REAL advantages in using a controller are funny...no offence, eh.
Personally, gt6 is probably the last semi-sim racing game i play.
I can't use a wheel because of an....health problem, i know that i would have way more fun with it, and (obviously) game have a more online-competitive attitude as years go by.
I'm not that slow actually, i had good fights against people with a wheel, but lately i got a bit frustrated.
You know, you always find that good player with a wheel that easily give you seconds of gap in a few laps, an even when you're the ''fight even for the last place'' type of player (like me) after a while you're like ''yeah, ok..''.
What i want to say with all this stuff?
This is 2015. Everything is online competition, and racing games are obviously the easiest opportunity for a realistic approach. You can find a decent wheel for a cheap price.
Mainstream games will always think about the controller players too because...money. But good physics are meant for wheels.
Controller vs wheel will never really work, there's nobody to blame.
Of course i am talking about real competition. You can still have fun and everything. But mainly for hotlapping if we talk about single player, since nobody cares about making a decent AI...Because you con go online against real people. That's the main point in modern gaming.
It's just a fact, there isn't a real way to make it equal.
Yeah you can find aliens on ds3 too, but you just have to look at any time trial to see the truth.
People talking about REAL advantages in using a controller are funny...no offence, eh.
Personally, gt6 is probably the last semi-sim racing game i play.
I can't use a wheel because of an....health problem, i know that i would have way more fun with it, and (obviously) game have a more online-competitive attitude as years go by.
I'm not that slow actually, i had good fights against people with a wheel, but lately i got a bit frustrated.
You know, you always find that good player with a wheel that easily give you seconds of gap in a few laps, an even when you're the ''fight even for the last place'' type of player (like me) after a while you're like ''yeah, ok..''.
What i want to say with all this stuff?
This is 2015. Everything is online competition, and racing games are obviously the easiest opportunity for a realistic approach. You can find a decent wheel for a cheap price.
Mainstream games will always think about the controller players too because...money. But good physics are meant for wheels.
Controller vs wheel will never really work, there's nobody to blame.
Of course i am talking about real competition. You can still have fun and everything. But mainly for hotlapping if we talk about single player, since nobody cares about making a decent AI...Because you con go online against real people. That's the main point in modern gaming.
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- 3,050
- England
- kilesa4568
I swapped from a wheel to the DS3 myself and other than a couple of corners I struggle to turn in on (Eau Rouge especially), the only real difference for me is that the inputs need to be a more precise, ie, it's a lot harder to be consistent with my line. All the little corrections stack the time on.
I'm not a bad worker who blames his tools though. I know it's possible to be quicker with the controller but it's above my pay grade. I get to a certain lap time and bounce a tenth or so either way of it but it's a long way off the more talented drivers.
Sadly, all drivers aren't created equal.
I'm not a bad worker who blames his tools though. I know it's possible to be quicker with the controller but it's above my pay grade. I get to a certain lap time and bounce a tenth or so either way of it but it's a long way off the more talented drivers.
Sadly, all drivers aren't created equal.
- 10,904
- Sweden
- eran0004
A wheel will always be better, because it allows you to be more precise. With an analog stick you don't have the same level of control, which means that the game needs to be designed to guess your intentions. Full left at low speeds is not the same as full left at high speeds. Full left when in a drift is not the same as full left when not in a drift.
- 16,417
- United Kingdom
DS3 inputs are smoothed by the game and are speed sensitive, this has to be the case, other wise most people would find it impossible to apply a few degrees of lock smoothly, and the consequences of not being able to do that would be massive ploughing, worse at high speed.
It can manifest itself when high speed direction changes are needed, and the road layouts allow it, i.e. it shows up at Eau Rouge because the the suspension loads up a lot more than on a level corner, meaning it can be taken faster than the game is allowing for when it's applying the lock your thumb has requested.
The upside of this situation is that the players response time is far quicker (try going lock to lock on a T500RS with high torque settings as fast as you can move the analog stick all the way across!), so at twistier tracks, or in slower cars, where the game is giving the controller enough lock, quickly enough, and your response time is less than a wheel users, it should make no difference, of perhaps even be better.
I've found the pedal aspect of a wheel set-up to be the most useful aspect, and the fact that MT gear changes are second nature, which is something I could never get the hang of properly with a controller.
... also wheels are 20 times the fun!
It can manifest itself when high speed direction changes are needed, and the road layouts allow it, i.e. it shows up at Eau Rouge because the the suspension loads up a lot more than on a level corner, meaning it can be taken faster than the game is allowing for when it's applying the lock your thumb has requested.
The upside of this situation is that the players response time is far quicker (try going lock to lock on a T500RS with high torque settings as fast as you can move the analog stick all the way across!), so at twistier tracks, or in slower cars, where the game is giving the controller enough lock, quickly enough, and your response time is less than a wheel users, it should make no difference, of perhaps even be better.
I've found the pedal aspect of a wheel set-up to be the most useful aspect, and the fact that MT gear changes are second nature, which is something I could never get the hang of properly with a controller.
... also wheels are 20 times the fun!
- 2,935
- Geneva
- Kimky
- Kimky
I dont agree at all with the OP. Wheel dont make you faster. Either you're fast or you're not. The input method you're using doesnt matter. If wheel were really as fast as you say then top of leaderboard will be only them but it's not the case.
I'm playing sim since a lot of time and I can tell you that any race game I've played where pad and wheel were mix up always had mixed up controller/wheel on top of leaderboard. Some people are just incredibly fast on pad and some are really fast on wheel. It's not because you get a wheel that suddently you'll get on top of leaderboard.
- 232
- Rio de Janeiro
- BloodyCharity
... 
!Why real cars have steering wheels intead joysticks? Why they try to re-create eletronic wheels as realistic as possible for video-games? Why people spend $500 in an wheel instead of 50$ in an joystick?
Dont matter how good an joystick can be,it will never give you the feel and control that you have with nowdays realistic eletronic wheels,so you cant try to equal their "performance level",as you said. Give to a joystick the same feeling you have with an wheel obviously is impossible.
- 3,383
- Some where near the Pub
- GTP_hasslemoff
You controller drivers are to fast and need to be handicapped to slow down, it's making us wheel users look bad as we should be seconds ahead of you
.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Those tendencies programmed into the controller function can be learned though. Driving with a wheel has to be learned too because it's not the same as driving a real car either. The steering wheel on my truck doesn't tug left or right when I kick the back end out like it does with a FFB wheel. Both require training, dedication and patience to be quick. There are several D1 Gold WRS drivers who use the controller and that would be impossible IMO if the controller had too much of a disadvantage. I think there ultimately is a gap at the extreme end, but it's much, much, much smaller than most people think it is.
- 1,804
- Pennsylvania
- dayofwar2009
- PSN#2 Roob_OG
This has been covered so many times. Due to the lack of range in your throttle and brake inputs along with lack of pecision (and sometimes being able to overturn the front wheels) it's is harder to match the best times set by a wheel user. I would say the DS3 is a couple tenths slower on average when you compare the best of both input methods.
Someone in here mentioned the ds3 having a disadvantage especially when it comes to time trials involving stock cars. Depending on the car, this is entirely true.
Just listen to Lewis Hamilton and Johnny penso. They are always spot on with the info they share. Especially Lewis.
Good day.
Someone in here mentioned the ds3 having a disadvantage especially when it comes to time trials involving stock cars. Depending on the car, this is entirely true.
Just listen to Lewis Hamilton and Johnny penso. They are always spot on with the info they share. Especially Lewis.
Good day.
