Track Limits

[Jimlaad43]

We really need a thread properly dedicated to the issue of drivers staying within the white lines of the race track. It has become a highly contested topic recently in F1, with times deleted at certain corners, but not at others. Some people are calling for them to be abolished altogether, while others, and most fans want them acted on all the time.

What is your opinion?

 

[Jimlaad43]

F1 needs to stop talking about "gaining an advantage". If a driver runs wide onto tarmac runoff slightly, they are going to gain an advantage. Take Silverstone, Hamilton got one lap disqualified for running wide at Copse, but his pole lap included him running wide at Luffield. Where do you draw the line?
The answer is, with some white paint. Give drivers full use of the kerbs, they're there to be used, but one wheel over the kerbs (as used by the MSA) should be reported. It works in the UK, it works elsewhere, and once again the FIA and F1 are sleepwalking past an easy fix.

 

[twitcher]

There's a wide array of issues in regards to track limit, in my opinion. From the issues that we see on a weekly basis in F1 or other series, to specific issues like what @Jimlaad43 just mentioned, to subtleties such as the idea that they very fact there is a paved runoff there changes the approach a driver takes when approaching the corner, to changing the approach one must take when learning a new track (the idea that in practice, you can push past the limit with zero consequence, and then dial things back a bit to stay within the limits - as opposed to having to cautiously approach the limit from the safe side. Basically it's much easier to find the limit in practice when you have zero consequences for going past them).

Another major aspect for me is using paved runoff to fight for postion, such as T2 at Sochi or what Hamilton did defending against Ricciardo in Monaco this year.

It's a very complex issue, and there is no easy solution. That said, for me, the foundation of any discusion regarding track limits has got to be consistency, across the board. Not just consistency in F1 from race to race (a complete joke), but consistency from one series to the next, up and down the progression ladder. If we think this generation of drivers are bad at respecting track limits, if the FIA doesn't get their stuff together, watch how the next generation of kids approach track limits - kids who grew up watching the likes of Vettel and Co.,

 

[Samus]

If they are not going to get rid of the paved run-offs and kerbs wider than cars, and it seems they're not, enforcing the track limits across every corner of every track is the only simple solution. Do it in qualifying and your time is gone, simple as that. Do it in the race twice and you get a warning, every subsequent one is a penalty, starting from 5sec and increasing each time you do it.

Drivers will soon get the message and just like on corners without runoffs or in wet conditions they will stay between the while lines. As they're supposed to.

It won't happen though because this is the FIA. They'll continue faffing around for a few months before coming out with an OTT rule that gets squashed later.

 

[Tired Tyres]

No. Do it once in a race and get parked. If the run off wasn't there, their race would be done. Will never happen of course.

 

[Pete05]

First of all, let me say I absolutely detest the tarmac car parks added to the outside of corners in the name of safety. While I don't want to see anyone injured or pay the ultimate price, I look back at the days when a driver TRULY feared getting it wrong on some corners. Eau Rouge at Spa is a perfect example. I'll bet my feet a driver will take that famed corner flat out sooner than they once would.

The very best solution I've come across is:

• White line
• Rumble strip/kerb
• One or two metres of grass lining the outside of the rumble strip/kerb
• Existing car park, er, tarmac runoff area

If anyone wants to gamble on using the grassed area, roll the dice & good luck. You'll need it.

 

[Samus]

No. Do it once in a race and get parked. If the run off wasn't there, their race would be done. Will never happen of course.

The reason I'd give them leeway is because in a quali lap a 3 tenth gain while leaving the track is a huge advantage, over the course of a 300km race it isn't such a huge deal (Unless of course it's also used to complete/prevent an overtake).

 

[catamount39]

The only real solution is how most American tracks are setup, I.E. road then grass. The paved runoffs, while a safety/useful thing so cars that spin off track can recover quickly, just allow for abuse of the track.

 

[fortbo]

Here's my stance on this issue; it is very easy for someone who has never driven a car at the limit to say that we need to bring the "fear of death" back into motorsports. Tarmac runoffs are one of the best things that has been established in motorsports recently. All we need is proper regulations for track limits. What we do not need is to go back to having grass track edges. Me as a driver would feel much more comfortable doing a track day or race with tarmac runoffs than one with grass runoffs.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I still don't understand the stance in Germany. Hungary installed electronic markers and they were pretty much universally praised.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I've always thought that 2-4 metres of Grass followed by 2-4 metres of gravel - then all the run off tarmac you want is the solution.
As it is now, I watch less and less Motorsport each year, as run off increases my interest decreases.

It's not the danger I'm missing, it's the cheating I can't put up with.

 

[fortbo]

I've always thought that 2-4 metres of Grass followed by 2-4 metres of gravel - then all the run off tarmac you want is the solution.
As it is now, I watch less and less Motorsport each year, as run off increases my interest decreases.

It's not the danger I'm missing, it's the cheating I can't put up with.

I understand that, they really need to crack down on track limits regs. I still enjoy motorsports though, to me if everyone is doing it, then it is not as big of a deal for me watching the race. Yes, it would be nice if they didn't cheat, but the racing is still exciting to watch. I'm talking about the WEC with this though, F1 has gotten very bland lately and I really don't watch it anymore.

 

[legatoblues]

The only real solution is how most American tracks are setup, I.E. road then grass. The paved runoffs, while a safety/useful thing so cars that spin off track can recover quickly, just allow for abuse of the track.

Not all are like that!

And as was said before, the risk vs reward is so heavily in favour of ignoring track limits that it's not even funny. Think of how much you have to gain in some cases - especially F1 - and what is the penalty? Usually nothing. Sanctioning bodies must lift their game and clampdown on poor on track behaviour. Saying it's too hard or not the right idea is just weak...

 

[fortbo]

Not all are like that!

And as was said before, the risk vs reward is so heavily in favour of ignoring track limits that it's not even funny. Think of how much you have to gain in some cases - especially F1 - and what is the penalty? Usually nothing. Sanctioning bodies must lift their game and clampdown on poor on track behaviour. Saying it's too hard or not the right idea is just weak...

I was at that race and it looked even more pathetic in person.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I still don't understand the stance in Germany. Hungary installed electronic markers and they were pretty much universally praised.

I suspect that the FIA are experimenting with various solutions. They tried baguette kerbs in Austria, sensors with a tolerance in Hungary, and initially tried sensors without tolerance or prosecution in Germany (but recanted when there were nearly a hundred violations at Turn 1 in the first practice session). I think they're looking for a way to consistently enforce track limits from 2017, but in order to do it, they need data on what works. However, if they're enforcing track limits in a different way at each round, that's a whole new set of rules that the drivers have to learn. It's easier to passively monitor track limits to gather data and put something in place for 2017.

 

[queleuleu]

Not all are like that!

And as was said before, the risk vs reward is so heavily in favour of ignoring track limits that it's not even funny. Think of how much you have to gain in some cases - especially F1 - and what is the penalty? Usually nothing. Sanctioning bodies must lift their game and clampdown on poor on track behaviour. Saying it's too hard or not the right idea is just weak...

It's sad to see that modern tracks are seas of tarmac...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

James Allen on enforcing track limits:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016...etection-systems-end-f1s-track-limits-debate/

It's sad to see that modern tracks are seas of tarmac...

It's better than the alternative - cars digging in and flipping over when they hit gravel traps.

 

[Liquid]

It's better than the alternative - cars digging in and flipping over when they hit gravel traps.

I know it did happen this year quite significantly with Fernando Alonso but I would be interested to know the statistics for this; how often has an F1 car flipped over when going into the gravel trap? I can't think of too many occasions where it was the actual act of digging into the gravel which turned the car over rather than the car's intertia from an intial collision/sideswipe.

That's the nature of an open wheeler; it's always going to be a danger and given that the F1 circus shares tracks with other circuses which are closed wheel, and where gravel-flipping is less of a danger, it's hard to find that balance when it comes to track design.

I understand that asphalt next to the track is great and relatively safer for open wheelers but it makes the tracks look so bad. Seeing a few white lines amongst a sea of grey makes me want to not watch.

Surely grass then asphalt would both prevent drivers abusing track limits due to grass slowing you down and also allowing a spinning car room to slow down with the extra asphalt? Gravel close to the barriers as a last resort.

Gravel Asphalt Grass ||| Racetrack ||| Grass Asphalt Gravel

And then there are the drivers (I think Vettel is one of them) who complain that kerbs are destroying the suspension when you drive over them lap after lap... boy, that's a whole other burst blood vessel in itself.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

how often has an F1 car flipped over when going into the gravel trap?

I can't really find any statistics on it, either. But probably the most notable example I can think of is Michael Schumacher in practice for the 2004 Australian Grand Prix.

Seeing a few white lines amongst a sea of grey makes me want to not watch.

I don't get why they don't just paint the tarmac grass green. COTA use red, white and blue in places, so I don't see why green is so far-fetched.

And then there are the drivers (I think Vettel is one of them) who complain that kerbs are destroying the suspension when you drive over them lap after lap... boy, that's a whole other burst blood vessel in itself.

Ugh, tell me about it.

 

[Ryk]

The rules need to be tough. Get inside the white lines, or get out of the car and let a driver that can.

Cheating drivers and weak officials.

Tarmac runoff looks bad? CGI some fake grass - they can CGI Adverts track side easy enough. Asphalt runoff is there in case the worst happens - not for drivers to cheat. In effect going even faster in a corner and shortening the safety runoff. The run off at Bahrain is a nice colourful compromise.

 

[nascarfan1400]

I think track limits are stupid. As long as you aren't blatantly cutting corners theres no issue in my eyes. Running wide often costs you more time than not anyways, so people going crazy over that sort of thing are silly.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I think track limits are stupid. As long as you aren't blatantly cutting corners theres no issue in my eyes. Running wide often costs you more time than not anyways, so people going crazy over that sort of thing are silly.

Nope. The Lone Star Le Mans thing showed the issue massively. In the WEC, where the cars had to stay within the lines, the Porsche 911's were 1.4 seconds a lap slower than the Lone Star where they could pick their lines.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

MotoGP has the right idea - you go outside the lines in qualifying, your time gets deleted. Do it in the race and you get a warning; do it again and you have to give up a position.

 

[Pupik]

I liked the idea of the wide, paved runoffs for hairpin turns; if a driver muffs a braking point, it can give confidence to the driver in an overtaking maneuver. This way, they can rejoin without damaging the vehicle, keeping another car in the race. Or as an alternate path away from some other party's tangle, in which no timing gains would be made.

But it shouldn't be much wider than the regular track width, because it's not supposed to make the path around the curve faster, nor should they be placed randomly around the exit of a high-speed bend in which the driver would not typically miss the apexes. That's where it gets excessive.

 

[doblocruiser]

grass and gravel would do the job just fine. It forces the driver to be more aware on the track and take less risks. No need for all kinds of electronic systems to messure tracklimits.

 

[Samus]

I think track limits are stupid. As long as you aren't blatantly cutting corners theres no issue in my eyes. Running wide often costs you more time than not anyways, so people going crazy over that sort of thing are silly.

Running wide on the exit of a corner is making the angle of the corner lesser and as a result, faster, so long as it's got the tarmac run off. It only costs you time if there is something beyond the track to slow you down.

 

[jontikis]

grass and gravel would do the job just fine. It forces the driver to be more aware on the track and take less risks. No need for all kinds of electronic systems to messure tracklimits.

This.
Personally, if I had to give a solution for the track limits, it would easily be a return of the "grass-tarmac-grass" style for the circuits.

 

[nascarfan1400]

This.
Personally, if I had to give a solution for the track limits, it would easily be a return of the "grass-tarmac-grass" style for the circuits.

But then Grass causes big accidents, such as cars digging in and rolling, losses of traction, and other issues.

 

[Jimlaad43]

But then Grass causes big accidents, such as cars digging in and rolling, losses of traction, and other issues.

Plus grass just flicks a load of dirt onto the track when people run wide one it, making it a tiresome job for the marshals to clear up at the end of every session.

 

[nascarfan1400]

Plus grass just flicks a load of dirt onto the track when people run wide one it, making it a tiresome job for the marshals to clear up at the end of every session.

And in extreme cases, making the actual racetrack unraceable