Let's revisit counter-steering assist

  • Thread starter Wardez
  • 332 comments
  • 20,880 views
Wardez

Wardez

Not Hotdog
Staff Emeritus
9,744
United States
Las Vegas UTC-8
Wardez
Wardez
This seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region. Is this simply the accepted norm now?

Those that use it, how do you justify using it? Is it simply faster?

I'm kind of struggling to understand it. I guess I'm a purist then? I just hate the feeling of driving with it on, but if that's what everyone seems to be doing then I guess I'll have to fold eventually. Also, what are your thoughts on this being allowed for the upcoming official tournaments?
 
I think it should be removed from the game.

I tried driving the mach 1 around horse thief and I was 10 seconds off the leaderboard, never mind it's not a track I know.
I tried driving the mach 1 around bathurst and was 5 seconds off the leaderboard, I switched on CSA and got on the leaderboard.

It's a fake aid that ruins the game, BUT if you accept it is just a game, having it switched on is like so what.

Let people play how they want.

But it is like going to a battle field fight without aimbot when everyone else and the best players are using aimbot.
 
dzumaalcapone
You're faster with it? :eek:

I turned it off when I got the wheel and never touched it since. But it definitely helped with DS4 when I first got GTS.
Click to expand...

Well it definitely helps in RWD cars. I can be fast with it in most Gr.3 cars too. It helps me most when it comes to road cars that are RWD and/or oversteer prone.

JacksHerer
I think it should be removed from the game.

I tried driving the mach 1 around horse thief and I was 10 seconds off the leaderboard, never mind it's not a track I know.
I tried driving the mach 1 around bathurst and was 5 seconds off the leaderboard, I switched on CSA and got on the leaderboard.

It's a fake aid that ruins the game, BUT if you accept it is just a game, having it switched on is like so what.

Let people play how they want.

But it is like going to a battle field fight without aimbot when everyone else and the best players are using aimbot.
Click to expand...

I'm definitely for letting people play how they want but it forces the hand of competitive players... in order to stay competitive. That's what I'm getting at most. Wish it weren't a factor.
 
Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't... on Interlagos yesterday in the Citroen I found it too restrictive, likewise on Maggiore on Wednesday using the RC-F - it feels like it's spending too much time trying to point the car forward rather then let power be applied. But on Suzuka at the weekend, driving the Genesis I liked it.

It's there, use it if you won't.. don't use it if you don't want.
 
I play with a controller so it makes some cars more manageable, it's just something which helps me feel more comfortable to push in less stable cars (the R8 LMS was barely drivable in the beta), not enough to be able to be quicker than wheel users.
 
I don't see why people get mad if X aid makes them faster . Also no aid is going to get you 5 seconds faster . Wardez is the on my guy on my friends list who I can't outright beat in a few laps of TT and I use zero aids . I usually call it quits after 5-6 laps and always come within at least a quarter second to him . Oh and I use a controller and use automatic ! ( no clutch shifting is fake kids)
 
JacksHerer
I think it should be removed from the game.

It's a fake aid that ruins the game, BUT if you accept it is just a game, having it switched on is like so what.

Let people play how they want.

But it is like going to a battle field fight without aimbot when everyone else and the best players are using aimbot.
Click to expand...

This!! In my humble opinion it allows an average driver to be a fast, competitive, top 10 leaderboard driver, which is all well and good, but totally negates the need to improve their skill cos, hey... CSA will fix that right!! Hopefully it'll be forced off for the actual FIA season.

But like others have said, let people play the way they want, after all it is just a game.
 
Hi Wardez first of all i‘d Say I haven’t noticed that it’s a common behaviour using CSA. When I watch Top10 Leaderboard times I rarely see it, almost never. The fast guys i‘d say don’t use it in Qualify I guess,but, when it comes to longer races with heavy tire wear I noticed that it can help me being more consistent. It doesn’t make me faster on 1 Lap. But the consistency over longer races can help me being faster when tire wear kicks in.
For example I generally drive the 458 and I noticed that tire wear has a huge impact on that specific Car. So I put it on weak to stand a chance. I tried a few other Cars too and noticed that tire wear doesn’t impact on lap times that much like on the 458. The 458 is a very twitchy Car and i‘d say definitely harder to drive than some other Gr3 Cars.
I agree I don’t like the feeling of CSA, but it’s simply because i‘m used to drive without it and know how the 458 ”feels”. Setting it to weak doesn’t influence it too much and I still get a decent driving experience while maintaining pace in longer races. I tried it on strong too, but that’s just too much for me. I never used it on any other Cars especially not on N-Class Cars.
One more good example, a few days ago I was driving against a top class driver in a lobby. Usually as far as I know him and his driving behaviour, he always uses CSA on strong. He‘s a Porsche driver usually and I stand no chance against him. This time we were driving the 458 with CSA restricted and still he managed to pull away but much slower. Maybe he had the better setup idk, but anyway, what i‘m trying to say is that CSA definitely doesn‘t make me faster. More Consistent when tire wear kicks in,yes. I think it’s just a matter of getting used to drive with or without it. I definitely prefer not use it.
 
PirovacBoy
Hi Wardez first of all i‘d Say I haven’t noticed that it’s a common behaviour using CSA. When I watch Top10 Leaderboard times I rarely see it, almost never. The fast guys i‘d say don’t use it in Qualify I guess,but, when it comes to longer races with heavy tire wear I noticed that it can help me being more consistent. It doesn’t make me faster on 1 Lap. But the consistency over longer races can help me being faster when tire wear kicks in.
For example I generally drive the 458 and I noticed that tire wear has a huge impact on that specific Car. So I put it on weak to stand a chance. I tried a few other Cars too and noticed that tire wear doesn’t impact on lap times that much like on the 458. The 458 is a very twitchy Car and i‘d say definitely harder to drive than some other Gr3 Cars.
I agree I don’t like the feeling of CSA, but it’s simply because i‘m used to drive without it and know how the 458 ”feels”. Setting it to weak doesn’t influence it too much and I still get a decent driving experience while maintaining pace in longer races. I tried it on strong too, but that’s just too much for me. I never used it on any other Cars especially not on N-Class Cars.
One more good example, a few days ago I was driving against a top class driver in a lobby. Usually as far as I know him and his driving behaviour, he always uses CSA on strong. He‘s a Porsche driver usually and I stand no chance against him. This time we were driving the 458 with CSA restricted and still he managed to pull away but much slower. Maybe he had the better setup idk, but anyway, what i‘m trying to say is that CSA definitely doesn‘t make me faster. More Consistent when tire wear kicks in,yes. I think it’s just a matter of getting used to drive with or without it. I definitely prefer not use it.
Click to expand...


Good points. I definitely find it easy to see top times with CSA on. I just checked right now and it's up and down the board. FIA, Daily race leaderboards, everywhere.

It's one of those aids that people utilize in different ways. It can definitely help alleviate issues with problem cars. It can act as training wheels for more consistency over long runs, etc.

Strong vs weak setting on CSA is an interesting point you bring up. This is something I can't gleam from watching replays. I wonder what the go-to there is. Again, it's probably subjective.

I'm gonna start to experiment with it. We'll see what it leads to. I don't imagine I'll use it on anything but road cars, since I'm pretty used to the feeling of driving race cars with ABS only.

@Lebowski
Oh has it now? And it's just done and dusted then? I don't think so. I'm looking for feedback on what seems to be a rise in its use in the top competitive space. I've adjusted the title of the thread so it doesn't seem like I'm trying to break new ground or anything. There's plenty of good word to spread on the matter, don't worry about that.
 
Last edited:
Wardez
I'll use it on anything but road cars, since I'm pretty used to the feeling of driving race cars with ABS only.
Click to expand...
Just because of that reason, i‘d suggest you to specifically use it on these Cars, as you know them and will be able to find out much more how it impacts. Believe me ;)
 
Wardez
This seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region. Is this simply the accepted norm now?

Those that use it, how do you justify using it? Is it simply faster?

I'm kind of struggling to understand it. I guess I'm a purist then? I just hate the feeling of driving with it on, but if that's what everyone seems to be doing then I guess I'll have to fold eventually. Also, what are your thoughts on this being allowed for the upcoming official tournaments?
Click to expand...

There is something immensely satisfying about watching a replay and then finding out the guy that wasn't able to pass you used more aids than you and of course it also helps when the guy you could not pass used all aids known to man.. and explains why with his tires supposedly gone he didn't seem as much on edge as you...

There is also the depressing side of watching a guy just leaving you in the dust, and then seeing ABS as the only aid..

Each to his own :-)
 
Unless you're eating wild berries or mushrooms, what you don't know don't hurt you....

BUT, whenever I get involved in a collision and come worse off, I look at the replay to see what aids the other car was using, more to confirm my impressions than judgement.
 
I use CSA all the time but I never realised it dramatically helped lap times. I only really use it to help with counter steer in RWD cars since I tend to spin a lot when counter steering manually if I have it off.
 
When I owned a wheel (it’s been a while - GT5 days), I didn’t use assists other than ABS. I could, with a little work, reach the top 100. Using a DFGT. Now I don’t have the money/space for a wheel. The difference for me in lap time is huge.

I don’t usually like using assists like CSA, but I was having a bit of trouble with Nordschleife circuit experience full lap. I would’ve eventually got it without CSA, but because the track was being a nuisance I turned it on. First lap put me within 1 sec of gold, a gain of 5 secs on my PB. Third lap with it I got gold even with mistakes (second lap had a huge accident:lol:). I’m also pretty sure I had better laps without CSA. I’d say on that track it helped me gain in the range of 7 seconds.

This is all just for reference. I’m not a very quick driver, it just helps me stay competitive. If I had a decent wheel set up, I wouldn’t use it.
 
I don't drive the road cars too often, I tend to stick to Gr3/Gr4 only. As many are aware, I will only use Gr3/Gr4 Viper because the (limited) testing I've done with other cars always leads me to lose pace compared to the Viper. As a result of this, I am very used to the feel of the car and I always use the same assists TC on 2, and ABS on default.

I think I would make the perfect guinea pig to test how my speed differs with CSA on as I've still never tried it.

I will try it in a little bit at Interlagos in Gr3. I typically run 33s with a best time ever of a 32.7. I will run three stints, a normal one, CSA on low, and CSA on high. In each stint I will keep TC on 2 and ABS on default.
 
TheGeologist
I don't drive the road cars too often, I tend to stick to Gr3/Gr4 only. As many are aware, I will only use Gr3/Gr4 Viper because the (limited) testing I've done with other cars always leads me to lose pace compared to the Viper. As a result of this, I am very used to the feel of the car and I always use the same assists TC on 2, and ABS on default.

I think I would make the perfect guinea pig to test how my speed differs with CSA on as I've still never tried it.

I will try it in a little bit at Interlagos in Gr3. I typically run 33s with a best time ever of a 32.7. I will run three stints, a normal one, CSA on low, and CSA on high. In each stint I will keep TC on 2 and ABS on default.
Click to expand...
Nice one :)
 
I don't mind its use in races but it's getting a bit silly in qualifying. Monkey see monkey do has turned it into a requirement and that doesn't sit so well with me any more. It really needs limiting to a race option only.

Qualifying is about your ultimate car control along with all the risks of trying to scrape a tenth or two off. If you can't do it naturally and have to resort to CSA, those tenths become ill gotten gains.
 
I see both sides of the issue and both have their merits. I'm for CSA, if it helps even the field, keeps races competitive,and makes the game fun. I'm against it because it does lower the bar a bit. I have a bigger issue with totally unrealistic off-track or on-wall physics where a player will be all.over the place bouncing off walls, going off track...and somehow is faster!?
 
kilesa4568
I don't mind its use in races but it's getting a bit silly in qualifying. Monkey see monkey do has turned it into a requirement and that doesn't sit so well with me any more. It really needs limiting to a race option only.

Qualifying is about your ultimate car control along with all the risks of trying to scrape a tenth or two off. If you can't do it naturally and have to resort to CSA, those tenths become ill gotten gains.
Click to expand...
I would say it's the opposite... qualifying can be done over 7 laps or 77 laps, there is no risk of going off track or anything else.
Where as racing is all about your ultimate car control, where you may not get to run the racing line you have practiced, you need to adjust braking points for other road users, need to make adjustments on the fly etc etc

I'll never defend CSA in race nor qualifying, it is what it is though (the driving version of aimbot)
 
TheGeologist
I don't drive the road cars too often, I tend to stick to Gr3/Gr4 only. As many are aware, I will only use Gr3/Gr4 Viper because the (limited) testing I've done with other cars always leads me to lose pace compared to the Viper. As a result of this, I am very used to the feel of the car and I always use the same assists TC on 2, and ABS on default.

I think I would make the perfect guinea pig to test how my speed differs with CSA on as I've still never tried it.

I will try it in a little bit at Interlagos in Gr3. I typically run 33s with a best time ever of a 32.7. I will run three stints, a normal one, CSA on low, and CSA on high. In each stint I will keep TC on 2 and ABS on default.
Click to expand...

Okay guys, here are my results.

--
Room settings (Same for all events)
Track - Autodromo de Interlagos
Time - 13:45 (Fine Weather)
Category/car - Gr3 Dodge Viper
BoP - on
Tires - Racing hards
Tire wear/fuel consumption/damage - off
Grip reduction on Wet Track/Track edge - Real
Short cut penalty - Invalidate Time

Other information
Dr A, Sr S
Controller - T150 (Force Feedback max torque - 3; Force Feedback sensitivity - 5)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 1 - The control test (My normal settings)
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - off
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:33.455
Lap 2 - 1:45.157 (Spin)
Lap 3 - 1:33.495
Lap 4 - 1:32.632
Lap 5 - 1:33.642

Notes: I received cutting for two consecutive laps between laps 4 and 5. Between the spin and the penalties I was disappointed with my lack of consistency, so I reran the control in session 4.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 2 - The weak test
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - weak
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:32.499
Lap 2 - 1:33.120
Lap 3 - 1:32.968
Lap 4 - 1:32.734
Lap 5 - 1:33.247

Notes - Right away I noticed my wheel felt heavier, but it seemed smoother. When on kerbs, I experienced basically zero grip reduction.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 3 - The strong test
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - strong
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:32.890
Lap 2 - 1:32.358
Lap 3 - 1:32.643
Lap 4 - 1:32.508
Lap 5 - 1:32.635

Notes - I was not a fan of the feeling of the car. It was fast, but there was a good amount of understeer. I felt a lot of "push/loose" where the car would not turn and finally it would bite, but then the rear tires would slip...There was also a noticeable amount of general retardation of game physics. I felt like I could have been t-boned by a dump truck going 200mph, and I probably would not have spun out.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 4 - The control test (Again)
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - off
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:32.519
Lap 2 - 1:33.384
Lap 3 - 1:33.007
Lap 4 - 1:33.256
Lap 5 - 1:33.082

Notes - Much more consistency this time around.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Best lap results -
Session 1 (Control one) 1:32.632 (4th)
Session 2 (CSA weak) 1:32.499 (2nd)
Session 3 (CSA strong) 1:32.358 (1st)
Session 4 (Control two) 1:32.519 (3rd)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Discussion and important notes about the testing - This test was all about top speed so no mean lap times were calculated, and this is why fuel consumption and tire wear were left off. The results show CSA seems to increase my lap times by a few tenths. One thing I would like to note is today's test was the first ever time I had run laps in a lobby. I tried my best to mimic sport mode settings, and saved those settings to assure the settings were the same for each session. I reset the room after each session to reset cones which were occasionally knocked over. However, I am slightly suspicious of my times because my best ever time I can remember at Interlagos was a 1:32.7xx, and in each session I beat that time relatively easily. Regardless, the test still has merit because the settings and car were the same for each test.

I think CSA would help a user retain speed as tires wear, and be much less likely to spin in the event of a mistake.

How would these results differ with sports tires and/or Nx00 cars? I guess we would need someone else to test that with more experience on them than me. I would not be fit to test it because I cannot assure consistency as well as I can with this test as it is my best car/track.

I can't help but feel like I am cheating when I am using CSA. Even on weak, it feels like I've modded the cars grip. I am not sure if I will use it in sport mode...
 
Last edited:
Some of the better drivers in the world are using this because at the end of the day it makes them more consistent. Unfortunately as more people use it, more people will start using it.
Especially with TC off, you can power down much more aggressively out of corners are CSA assist will save your car with little to no reduction in speed.

I will admit it's a little frustrating when I watch a replay and a driver who I had a good battle with or who maybe passed me is using CSA - the guys who are already significantly faster would beat me with it turned off anyways. That being said, when I beat other drivers who are using CSA it makes me feel even better.

I will continue to not use it, I don't really care that other people do - but I would like if it was removed for FIA races.
 

Latest Posts

Back