Views on this move

[Ashthebash]

I know there's probably a thread for this type of thing but can't find it so if there is I imagine it'll end up there

Done a lobby, and made a move late in the race on a car ahead. It is from a long way back, but I'm on better tyres and have better brakes so I know it's a possibility. After he covers the inside down the straight I move out of the tow early to see if he opens the inside back up, which he does, and I switch back up the inside to make the move on the brakes



The contact from my perspective is him not seeing me or just not thinking I might have gone for it and he's turned in, because as the on board shows I'm making the apex quite comfortably and I'm alongside. I'm not suggesting there should have been penalties anywhere, just suggesting that maybe this move - while bold - wasn't dirty and didn't warrant a retaliatory ram into T4 (which ghosted) and plenty of post race abuse

Thoughts?

(It'll be interesting to see all the different viewpoints on this, I can imagine they'll be varied!!)

 

[NevilleNobody]

Miles too far back, black and white to me. You are so far back he moves from the inside defensive line to a middling line as he rightfully feels you are far enough back not to be impeded by him widening his approach.

Way, way too far back.

On this track, I would have positioned for the best possible exit and passed into the left at the end of the next straight which is far, far less likely to end in tears.

 

[Groundfish]

Wow what was that?
Lol pretty ugly on both sides there what with all the late swerving coming into turn one.
Poor driving by all, there.

 

[Ashthebash]

Miles too far back, black and white to me. You are so far back he moves from the inside defensive line to a middling line as he rightfully feels you are far enough back not to be impeded by him widening his approach.

Way, way too far back.

On this track, I would have positioned for the best possible exit and passed into the left at the end of the next straight which is far, far less likely to end in tears.

If I'm fully alongside at the apex and going slow enough to make the corner then by definition it wasn't from too far back because the move was done physically with no contact and I'd have made the corner easily. You have to remember that this move was in my mind as soon as he moved to defend the inside, I'm trying to tempt him to move back out specifically so that I can make the move up the inside. Basically trying to lull him into thinking I'm not going to try a move - which clearly worked

 

[Ashthebash]

Wow what was that?
Lol pretty ugly on both sides there what with all the late swerving coming into turn one.
Poor driving by all, there.

Swerving??? It was all planned. Did you read the post or just watch the video

 

[NevilleNobody]

If I'm fully alongside at the apex

That is a new one. Anyone can be fully alongside at the apex if you just chuck it in! Conventional racing rules suggest the driver behind needs to achieve some overlap BEFORE braking. At least to the C-Pillar.

As for "tempting him to take a wide line so you could make a move" ... that's kind of self defeating. If he is fooled by thinking you are too far back, he is not going to leave space on the inside, he is going to take the racing line. Your strategy leaves me perplexed.

 

[Groundfish]

Swerving??? It was all planned. Did you read the post or just watch the video

I mean that’s the kind of stuff you see at the bottom of the hill right turn at Seaside and it almost never ends well.
He went inside (ok defensive). You follow then move towards the racing line, you’re way back so he moves back towards the racing line,
you dive across behind, to get his inside very late. He was probably irritated and turns into you, or he simply never saw you.
It’s your job in real racing when passing to present yourself so the other driver knows you are there.
Imo a cleaner way to pass is controlling track position rather than trying to swerve and trick the car ahead.
He was compromised into turn 1, you easily could have returned to the normal racing line and passed him on the straight as @NevilleNobody mentioned.
Plus if you do it that way you overtake but you lose less time.
It’s been hundreds of times I’ve had cars ahead of me playing that turn1 game at Interlagos, they compromise both cars exits and get passed on the straight, or create bunches of cars angry behind them because they are compromising everyone’s race.
I mean bottom line it’s a lobby who cares just dive in etc.
In sport mode though bad move.
Jmo there’s nothing worse than multiple cars swerving across each other in braking zones, it’s ridiculous.
Ok lobby, unless it’s organized is a puntfest so it doesn’t matter.
Clean overtaking is about establishing and controlling track position, not swerving and diving.
Jmo
Edit real overtaking is getting more speed than the car ahead and controlling the track so there’s literally nothing they can do. Not trick swerves late into key corners.

Overlap-before normal turn in on racing line after turn in is an arcade dive.

Edit 2 If there’s a driver racing me and I know I can’t trust him because I’ve seen him dive and swerve like a lunatic he WILL get brakechecked into turns if I’m defensive.
There’s literally nothing else the car ahead can do against a lunatic divebomber. I’m not saying that’s you, I’m just saying there’s definitely a time that a little early extra brake is all one can do to counter this nonsense.

 

[Ashthebash]

That is a new one. Anyone can be fully alongside at the apex if you just chuck it in! Conventional racing rules suggest the driver behind needs to achieve some overlap BEFORE braking. At least to the C-Pillar.

But not everyone who just chucks it in as you allude to is going to make the corner easily and you can clearly see I'm not going to be running him off the track or anything. It was just a late move under braking - as I said I knew my car had better tyres and brakes, are you suggesting I can't use that advantage?

 

[Winnie847]

You guys are crazy, that was a clean move. You don’t have to be alongside before braking, but before turn-in. If that was the case, nobody could ever “outbrake” someone and call it clean. Dude should’ve protected the inside, or braked later and taken the wider line to contest the position. If you think this is the type of move you only see in low ranked lobbies, you’ve probably never raced in top split. Dude was incredibly unaware, probably wasn’t using radar and now he’s mad. LOLz.

 

[Kermit_2142]

Sold the dummy, nailed the apex, didn’t overshoot at all, defender turns in early onto you.
Probably surprised the **** out of them but good move imo .
Defender should have never given up the inside.

 

[Winnie847]

Imaging giving up the inside that soon and braking that early in the top couple splits and expecting to not get overtaken. You’ll be eaten alive.

 

[FPV MIC]

It's fine @Ashthebash.

To those who wrongly think there has to be overlap before the braking watch the video below. This was considered legal.

 

[Kermit_2142]

I mean that’s the kind of stuff you see at the bottom of the hill right turn at Seaside and it almost never ends well.
He went inside (ok defensive). You follow then move towards the racing line, you’re way back so he moves back towards the racing line,
you dive across behind, to get his inside very late. He was probably irritated and turns into you, or he simply never saw you.
It’s your job in real racing when passing to present yourself so the other driver knows you are there.
Imo a cleaner way to pass is controlling track position rather than trying to swerve and trick the car ahead.
He was compromised into turn 1, you easily could have returned to the normal racing line and passed him on the straight as @NevilleNobody mentioned.
Plus if you do it that way you overtake but you lose less time.
It’s been hundreds of times I’ve had cars ahead of me playing that turn1 game at Interlagos, they compromise both cars exits and get passed on the straight, or create bunches of cars angry behind them because they are compromising everyone’s race.
I mean bottom line it’s a lobby who cares just dive in etc.
In sport mode though bad move.
Jmo there’s nothing worse than multiple cars swerving across each other in braking zones, it’s ridiculous.
Ok lobby, unless it’s organized is a puntfest so it doesn’t matter.
Clean overtaking is about establishing and controlling track position, not swerving and diving.
Jmo
Edit real overtaking is getting more speed than the car ahead and controlling the track so there’s literally nothing they can do. Not trick swerves late into key corners.

Overlap-before normal turn in on racing line after turn in is an arcade dive.

Edit 2 If there’s a driver racing me and I know I can’t trust him because I’ve seen him dive and swerve like a lunatic he WILL get brakechecked into turns if I’m defensive.
There’s literally nothing else the car ahead can do against a lunatic divebomber. I’m not saying that’s you, I’m just saying there’s definitely a time that a little early extra brake is all one can do to counter this nonsense.

I kinda agree with your sentiment a safety/strategy/sensible stand point but from a racing stand point you would be foolish to show your hand to the driver ahead if your planning a surprise move (for example if you have a slower car than the driver ahead). It’s the defending drivers job to defend the inside until the apex if he wishes to keep it.
Also by braking early to deter dive bombs you may actually encourage them. If someone were to brake early on me I have no option but to send it up the inside or rear end them.
It’s an aggressive move for sure but it’s 100% the defenders error in coming back to right imo.

 

[Winnie847]

Especially in a race with high tire wear and all compounds being used. The differences in grip is potentially astronomical, so moves like this should be expected. It takes two to overtake and clearly this guy wasn’t participating based on his obvious lack of awareness. I mean, what kind of driver doesn’t see this move coming?

 

[Kermit_2142]

It's fine @Ashthebash.

To those who wrongly think there has to be overlap before the braking watch the video below. This was considered legal.

yep or even this

 

[OJBrit]

Yup traditional selling the dummy move. Obviously he wasn't expecting it as you don't really see it in a racing game. A lack of awareness on the Frenchman's part. Even though there is contact it's not dirty.

 

[Groundfish]

Nah. The proper way to overtake on the inside is to get your car right up next to them.
There’s no reason to go so far inside allowing a big gap between cars. If overtaking someone’s inside you should stay close, in this way if there is contact it will only be light.
I can never actively publicly promote late swerves to the inside resulting in heavy contact and time lost.
That’s what you see from drivers at low dr and sr.
If you win the inside properly, that would have never happened.

 

[NevilleNobody]

But not everyone who just chucks it in as you allude to is going to make the corner easily and you can clearly see I'm not going to be running him off the track or anything.

Even if you MAKE the corner, so stay at the apex, the other guy is gonna turn in because he is not expecting you to be there.

You guys are crazy, that was a clean move. You don’t have to be alongside before braking, but before turn-in.

Ofcourse you need overlap before turn in, by definition, because the other guy is going to turn in!

This all 100pc wrong.

 

[Winnie847]

Even if you MAKE the corner, so stay at the apex, the other guy is gonna turn in because he is not expecting you to be there.



Ofcourse you need overlap before turn in, by definition, because the other guy is going to turn in!

This all 100pc wrong.

ok, that’s what happened. He was there before turn-in and the outside guy just turned in as if nobody was there.

 

[Famine]

Looks like a classic switcheroo and an oblivious Porsche driver turning in without paying attention.

You weren't overly optimistic on the brakes and sliding through the corner, and you didn't need the side of his car to slow down either.

 

[Winnie847]

Nah. The proper way to overtake on the inside is to get your car right up next to them.
There’s no reason to go so far inside allowing a big gap between cars. If overtaking someone’s inside you should stay close, in this way if there is contact it will only be light.
I can never actively publicly promote late swerves to the inside resulting in heavy contact and time lost.
That’s what you see from drivers at low dr and sr.
If you win the inside properly, that would have never happened.

I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. You don’t have to be right next to someone to overtake them. That’s just a preference. The “late swerve” wasn’t a swerve, it was an outbraking move. The heavy contact you’re talking about was caused by the outside driver turning in when there was a whole entire car there. Based on your philosophy of winning the inside properly, nobody would ever be able to outbrake anyone else. And again, you don’t see moves like that in lower lobbies. In lower lobbies the attacking driver misses the apex and pushes the outside guy wide. Try giving up the inside that early in a top FIA lobby, I dare you.

 

[NevilleNobody]

ok, that’s what happened. He was there before turn-in and the outside guy just turned in as if nobody was there.

Because nobody WAS there, that's my point. You cannot suck and blow at the same time, you say it's selling a dummy so he "doesn't expect it" then you suddenly appear and expect him to take the wide line through the corner. That makes zero sense, why would he take the wide line if he thinks you are not going to be there? It takes a second for someone to make the decision on when to turn in and to physically make the move, by that point you're on the apex.

You guys make no sense. Like at all.

Moves like that do nothing but cause crashes.

 

[Winnie847]

Because nobody WAS there, that's my point. You cannot suck and blow at the same time, you say it's selling a dummy so he "doesn't expect it" then you suddenly appear and expect him to take the wide line through the corner. That makes zero sense, why would he take the wide line if he thinks you are not going to be there? It takes a second for someone to make the decision on when to turn in and to physically make the move, by that point you're on the apex.

You guys make no sense. Like at all.

Moves like that do nothing but cause crashes.

you're right, turning in when there is another car there does cause crashes. If there wasn't a car there on his inside, there would not have been contact right?

try explaining what rule or guideline has been broken here. I'll wait.

outbraking people is a thing that happens, and it's a thing that is allowed, and for good reason. This guy got done in, and was mad about it.

In a way, I used to think like you too, until I realized there are people in this game that are a lot better than me and can outbrake me even though it seems like I'm braking as late as possible. As long as I'm not already turning in, if somebody outbrakes me that's my bad for not having that skill. It could also just be a car and tire difference, since this is a race with drastic tire wear and different strategies/compounds.

 

[Kermit_2142]

Because nobody WAS there, that's my point. You cannot suck and blow at the same time, you say it's selling a dummy so he "doesn't expect it" then you suddenly appear and expect him to take the wide line through the corner. That makes zero sense, why would he take the wide line if he thinks you are not going to be there? It takes a second for someone to make the decision on when to turn in and to physically make the move, by that point you're on the apex.

You guys make no sense. Like at all.

Moves like that do nothing but cause crashes.

A risky move yes, but that doesn’t make it wrong.
It’s the responsibility of all drivers to have awareness at all times. Easier said than done in game with limited visibility and a radar off in the corner of the screen but it doesn’t change that he shouldn’t have come back to the right (giving up his defence) and then shouldn’t have turned in once the car was alongside.

 

[Pigems]

Looked fine to me. 👍 Had his car not been there you would have made the corner no problem, you didn’t use his car to make the corner or anything. Looks like you just surprised him by being there when he turned in, that’s on him for poor special awareness.

One thing I don’t think I saw posted above is that in these races you can theoretically have Driver A on old Hard tires, and Driver B on fresh soft tires. So the conventional have some overlap before braking/turning in can’t really always apply in these situations, because driver B can do things on Softs that driver A can only dream of doing on his Hard tires. So all parties need to be even more aware of their surroundings in these races.

 

[Groundfish]

I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. You don’t have to be right next to someone to overtake them. That’s just a preference. The “late swerve” wasn’t a swerve, it was an outbraking move. The heavy contact you’re talking about was caused by the outside driver turning in when there was a whole entire car there. B

I’m talking about this.

So, if you have the turn won, the best way is to be right next to the other car. In this case there’s a big gap to ASH’s right, on this screen it looks to me like he’s cutting the racing line big time.
In a textbook inside pass, you would be nose to nose BEFORE the normal racing line turn in point.
In a textbook move you would be right up next to the outside car, by being close even if contact happens it should be a minor run. If the outside car was unawares, since you are right up close there won’t be momentum developing.
To me going inside late like achieving your overlap after the normal turn is diving in and technically dirty.

As I said though, both cars here did poorly.
Like in my shoes I’ll stay inside in defense but lots of times you get that super aggressive idiot who won’t pull alongside on the outside and stays like tight like to track limit inside.
To me that’s a message saying “I am going to punt you”
Those players will get an early brake from me all day every day because it’s piss poor.
Swerving around in braking zones is piss poor.
If you win the inside win it. All you have to do is match the car on the outsides braking, there’s nothing they can do.
When you start swerving and cutting the racing line like you are racing to a finish line at the apex you will always cause mayhem and contact and penalties and anger

 

[Winnie847]

I’m talking about this.

View attachment 995097

So, if you have the turn won, the best way is to be right next to the other car. In this case there’s a big gap to ASH’s right, on this screen it looks to me like he’s cutting the racing line big time.
In a textbook inside pass, you would be nose to nose BEFORE the normal racing line turn in point.
In a textbook move you would be right up next to the outside car, by being close even if contact happens it should be a minor run. If the outside car was unawares, since you are right up close there won’t be momentum developing.
To me going inside late like achieving your overlap after the normal turn is diving in and technically dirty.

the "best" way is not necessarily the only way. Perhaps Ash was anticipating the driver might turn in on him, thus giving him space. Speculation, but it doesn't matter. There's no rule that says you have to be right up on the guy's door when overtaking.

You're clearly talking about how you would have done it, but that doesn't make it a dirty move.

A textbook pass is not always how things go down, and it's not the only legal way to make a move.

There's no way Ash would have made that apex if he was braking unacceptably late, yet he did make it.

The image you posted above shows clear overlap and plenty of time for the outside guy to realize there is someone there. Contact was caused by the guy turning in, because if he hadn't turned in the contact wouldn't have happened. Also, if there wasn't a car already there and he turned in, contact would not have happened.

Turns can be won in the braking zone, it happens all the time. It's happened to me, and I just have to eat it and accept that I didn't defend enough or properly. Lazy defending got a move pulled on him and anyone racing in the top lobbies knows better than to give up the inside that early. Slower drivers think they are getting mugged, fast drivers are just pulling moves they know are possible.

 

[Timm Sheehan]

(snip snip) And again, you don’t see moves like that in lower lobbies. In lower lobbies the attacking driver misses the apex and pushes the outside guy wide. (snip)

I can confirm that, the move shown involves too much prior thought and the cornering was too tight. Miss the apex, push outside racer wide . . . . now I have seen that move a few times.

 

[Winnie847]

But hey, all incidents are avoidable if nobody ever goes for moves, right???

 

[Groundfish]

Just because you can stop by apex doesn’t make it clean lol
A block pass would be a dirty move, .
Look I’m sounding high and mighty here but nobody’s perfect and I make mistakes online all the time.
But, putting up a move here for everyone and asking for input is an open question.
I’m answering in a way that I hope helps someone. Advanced drivers do many things others shouldn’t think about.

Further when advanced drivers start at the back and make late moves on inexperienced and lesser skilled drivers...It gives me mixed emotions big time.
The A plus will say and maybe be right that they got turned in on.
That’s objectively verifiable.
But, you gotta ask yourself what did you expect? Further an A plus passing a B is not a show of skill. It’s seal clubbing.
I race from the back. Just yesterday a lower ranked driver brakes way too much on a turn and I hit him not expecting that.
Was it his fault? Or was it mine for not qualifying?
In any event had I qualified he would not have been crashed out on that turn.
Anyways, I don’t think I see average drivers who know how to overtake clean.
Clean is NO DOUBT. You win inside, stay next to them close nose to nose, the line is yours.