P1ButtPlug
(Banned)
- 964
- Some where
Assetto Corsa PC Mods General DiscussionPC
- Thread starter Paiky
- 130,984 comments
- 34,011,044 views
- 651
- Australia
Could you describe the differences please. I'm sure neither one is 'better' than the other. Of course we will tend to prefer one or the other, but if you could describe what you feel about each.I dont know if many will agree with this but I'm comparing ACL prototypes with their counterparts by Legion and I prefer the ACL version. They are just so great. Of course Legion's are very good.
That Chaparral at Imola 72...
In fact I haven't driven Bazza's version, maybe I should.
- 1,150
- Spain
Well I just said "I prefer", no "are better". No one can tell wich one is closer to reality. It's just the feeling of the cars, the handling, I like them a little more. I have the feeling I control them better, they are more coherent with my driver inputs, react a little more pleasant to my taste.
Is difficult to put it in words and, at the top of that, I'm not native english speaker
By the way I learn a lot of english with Masscot posts hehe; his vocabulary is rich.
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
I know it's an old problem with the SCCA/GTO Camaro, but I can' t find the solution anymore. Can someone help again?
WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO FIX THAT?!?! THAT'S AWESOME!!!
- 341
- Russian Federation
WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO FIX THAT?!?! THAT'S AWESOME!!!
Background song "I believe I can fly..." : )
Well I just said "I prefer", no "are better". No one can tell wich one is closer to reality. It's just the feeling of the cars, the handling, I like them a little more. I have the feeling I control them better, they are more coherent with my driver inputs, react a little more pleasant to my taste.
Is difficult to put it in words and, at the top of that, I'm not native english speaker
By the way I learn a lot of english with Masscot posts hehe; his vocabulary is rich.
To each his own, I guess. I really enjoy the ACL versions, but overall I tend to like the Legion versions better. It's hard to put my finger on why, but I suspect it's the fact that Legion's cars tend to have a bit more grip, and I'm a lousy driver..
And of course, his Mark 3 Lola T70 is the only "real" Lola T70 Mk3 out there for AC, the original ACL Lola model is a "Frankenlola" - it's the love child of a Lola and a Chevron visually. Of course I've noticed ACL have scooped his 3d model and added it to the package recently, but I still prefer Legion's version better.But that's the joy of it, we all get to choose which one we want to play with!
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
- 78
- Finland
Ah, yes, him. He was right and wrong at the same time. On the point: but not understanding what's actually going on. KS themselves didn't (publicly) take the abstract advice properly.
Test drivers often tell you way off the mark, bizarre things which you need to interpret. But if it doesn't feel right, there's some reason to it. It could be as simple as "FFB is too low" or something deeper, like the incorrect tire load curves in Fredrik's case. However if you take it literally, you end up with a mess.
Don't get the wrong idea, everyone on page 521 reading Gloomy: you can't make an *accurate* car just winging it using no data. The simulations are good: you need some basic things to be in place. You *can* make a car that feels and drives mostly right however. Generally only feels right. It could have literally 20% too much grip, or be sprung or damped twice as strong, and a test driver could still tell you it feels "just like the real thing". If you're lucky, it might even produce similar laptime.
Here's where it gets a bit strange IMO, because the sim and an actual car kinesthetically feel so different that it's difficult to say with a straight face that anything feels "just like the real thing". It can feel like your *idea* of what the real thing feels like, if its close enough in the areas that you pay attention to, and you fill in the blanks. A well made car in AC will *generally* feel actually quite good through the steering for example because the forces are quite well represented in the geometry: but add in power steering or the fact that sims heavily boost steering information, and you run into a discrepancy just inherent to the sim.
Chances are if it feels right to a sensitive test subject, it'll drive mostly right. However in my experience, after the 85% or so mark, you can reach a "it feels just right" state in so many ways and have the car be way off in the details, that you need some hard, concrete things to work off. Data like dynos for engine and dampers, wind tunnel tests, CFD, tire tests, specific spring measurements especially in the case of cars where the change from the assumed original value can be very high ie: some touring cars. Hell, video + telemetry overlayed with the sim can tell you a lot if you know what to look for. But that too has the driver "in charge" so you can easily distort result if you're not careful.
Then there's a case of inputs: even the very best made sim cars simply aren't running on the same hardware the real one is. That being, the seat, steering wheel and systems, pedals, the frame that everything attaches to etc. Even if you get the right seat, the right wheel and the right pedal faces in the right positions, they *still* don't vibrate from forces; while the frame also vibrates from forces, your pedal still isn't pushing into actual fluid with pressure, your wheel still isn't pushing into a power steering system with actual fluid etc. So the car could indeed be *very* correct, and still feel somewhat wrong because of incorrect controller setup or peripherals. Generally test drivers accept this and kind of "work around it".
- 513
- United States
To each his own, I guess. I really enjoy the ACL versions, but overall I tend to like the Legion versions better. It's hard to put my finger on why, but I suspect it's the fact that Legion's cars tend to have a bit more grip, and I'm a lousy driver..
But that's the joy of it, we all get to choose which one we want to play with!
I was just hot lapping the ACL's at Spa 66 yesterday. I didn't finish all of them but I kind of liked the 'Frankenlola'
I'm preparing to take out the real one now 👍
Yes Sir, the Frankenlola is a great car to drive - I really enjoy it. But my OCD tendencies drive me crazy knowing it's "a little off" visually... Yup. I'm really, really weird that way!I was just hot lapping the ACL's at Spa 66 yesterday. I didn't finish all of them but I kind of liked the 'Frankenlola'
I'm preparing to take out the real one now 👍
View attachment 850033
- 360
- Slovenia
sure, though what we truly need imo is some quality gt500 mod work to go with the urd's great gtr 500VRC, I know your plate is full right now. And you know that I know that you are here.
The 2020 GT500's were just uncovered. Beat URD to the punch and be the kings oh the GT's
I mean, look at this thing of pure brute awesomeness.
- 295
- Italy
and that's why some of us also build themselves a motion rig and wear vr hmds... a (little) step closer to the real thing
- 287
- California
- ish1tyounot
- 1,502
- Germany
finally someone telling it like it is
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
Speaking of real vs. sim, the gang at RD got to properly lap the Nords recently.
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/real-vs-sim-a-legendary-experience-at-the-green-hell.172954/
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/real-vs-sim-a-legendary-experience-at-the-green-hell.172954/
- 40
- Nds
- 513
- United States
...downloaded the IMSA version, - but here too... suspension:
A way to fix the suspension file?...
🤬
- 78
- Finland
They did, but their input isn't super useful. You need a bit of experience in both, preferably at a track where you can actually push it, for things to start to make sense. The staff is so overwhelmed that they'll say whatever. After 10 more sessions, it'd become more clear.
- 168
- Portugal
Crazy stuff...
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
Yes, for anyone's first time on track, especially that track, the whole experience will overwhelm the senses and make you forget what you know. I kinda raised an eyebrow when he was saying that nothing from sim racing carries over. Of course some of it does, not the visceral/scary stuff but I guarantee they got around the track a lot better than someone who has never done any home simulation driving because they already knew the vehicle mechanics and had some similar muscle memory. I've had both a motorcycle instructor and a performance driving instructor ask me how I knew to accelerate off the apex....I told them I learned it on the computer games.
- 381
- Turkey
I have a few novice questions.
- Is clutch required when downshifting with paddles? I never do with my wheel. But if I use my gamepad (mod testing purposes) game disengages clutch automatically when downshifting.
- I see most drivers (sim and real life) constantly rocking wheel left-right with very small movements. Like a vibration. Is it a technique or road feedback?
- Do you suggest any videos for teaching sim-racing techniques?
- Is clutch required when downshifting with paddles? I never do with my wheel. But if I use my gamepad (mod testing purposes) game disengages clutch automatically when downshifting.
- I see most drivers (sim and real life) constantly rocking wheel left-right with very small movements. Like a vibration. Is it a technique or road feedback?
- Do you suggest any videos for teaching sim-racing techniques?
- 3,835
- Leiria
1st: The clutch, in an pneumatic or hydraulic gearbox, is only needed when going from neutral to 1st gear. Otherwise is not needed. Although there are a few exception to the rule, if memory serves me right the Mercedes CLK GTR could work without clutch, but the gearbox would only last 5000km or so, so it was advised the us of the clutch. But again that is real life vs. sim life. But, if you are using a manual car with paddles, you might have to engage auto-clutch in the game settings.
2nd: mostly road feedback if on a straight line. In the corners could be small line adjustments to better balance the car or create rotations. But I've heard (and someone with more experience) that you should limit those movements and that they are unnecessary.
3rd: practise, drive lots of hours, because everyone has different technique. I would say, if you must watch videos, tutorials on how to heel-and-toe and watch tons of in car footage to learn the lines of the tracks. Most of it comes from practise. Even drifting and whatnot.
- 78
- Finland
A: Shouldn't be. AC doesn't have support for sequential gearboxes, only semi-auto.
B: On the straight, road feedback. In the corners, you go a little over the limit, a little under, a little over, feeling the self aligning torque to keep the fronts on the limit and testing for yaw response. Some drivers also intentionally turn-in too much when trailbraking, lifting off slightly, going over curbs etc. to control oversteer in some cars. The front slip will slide the fronts a bit more than the rears and keep the car stable. I saw some guys doing it as a specific technique in modern GT cars.
C: Basically all of the sim racing videos are rubbish. Stay especially away from Mr Deap and Viperconcept. I suggest Going Faster
and Ross Bentley's Ultimate Speed secrets. Watch Best Motoring and Hot Version videos for some nice onboards to get an idea of good technique and relatively fast driving by pro drivers (Pedal cam often included). The rest is sim-specific and you'll generally learn it over time. Good sims will transfer over much, some stuff like iRacing requires a lot of hacky techniques and methods.
Here's some good videos. Not simracing or even racing specific but I'm assuming you're a complete newbie, or looking for info for a complete newbie, so it's decent for overall driving. Drifting included for pedal cam and concepts. Everyone should be able to drift competently as well, unless you're not planning on driving the limit. The biggest newbie fundamentals IMO is SEATING and STEERING POSITION, how you hold the wheel, proper vision and looking ahead and proper tempo in braking, steering, accelerating etc. Speed Secrets and the Honda video covers some of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKbJXlxEL5E
I think they have subs too.
EDIT:
I agree on the practice, but high level driving technique is almost completely identical. The differences are just in the method of feeling the car and on a per-car and per-setup basis. Which is why those small movements when done unconsciously and with a purpose are *not* unnecessary and limiting them will not make you go any faster or slower.
Theoretically you'd need to do A LOT of those very fast but ALSO smooth so as to not upset the car, to always keep the fronts on the very limit but that's not how it works. Cars run on springs and springy tires so if you steer like an absolute madman, you'll probably upset the car.
It depends on the car setup too. In some cars, it won't do you any good. In some cars it's almost a requirement just to keep it balanced. Many drivers use some movement to feel slip and IRL to feel/see the yaw. Largely you're feeling the wheel in sims IMO as sims boost the steering feedback to account for lack of proper G forces and inner ear functions.
If you wanna go fast at a pro e-sports level, it honestly just comes down to doing the right thing, then grinding. Endless grinding for thousands of laps.
Last edited:
- 513
- United States
- 381
- Turkey
@AlvaroF
@ArchKyuubeey
Thanks so much for your time and help.
About the 2nd, I have zero feedback on straights, even on very high speeds. I use G29. Should I change my feedback settings?
@ArchKyuubeey great info and videos. Pedal box videos are especially helpful.
I'm viewing my replays to evaluate myself. I see some small lockups but I can't feel them during driving. I may have problem with feedback settings.
Edit: FB settings are currently set as below:
@ArchKyuubeey
Thanks so much for your time and help.
About the 2nd, I have zero feedback on straights, even on very high speeds. I use G29. Should I change my feedback settings?
@ArchKyuubeey great info and videos. Pedal box videos are especially helpful.
I'm viewing my replays to evaluate myself. I see some small lockups but I can't feel them during driving. I may have problem with feedback settings.
Edit: FB settings are currently set as below:
Last edited:
- 78
- Finland
You don't have feedback dead center because the G25, G27, G29 and such use opposing gear setups to transmit forces. If you would get forces in center, the gears would fight each other and oscillate. Go for quite low FFB in these G-series wheels, like 50% gain in options. A true direct drive wheel will transmit forces basically dead center, SUPPOSEDLY without a real deadzone but I don't know personally.
Locking up with steering straight won't be felt via the wheel in a G-series setup, unless perhaps if you enable vibration from locking up. I don't think I have it enabled, nor do I know what it really does. I suspect it vibrates the vibration motor when you lock up. Would be cool if it was in the brake pedal.
Similar threads
