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America - The Official Thread
- Thread starter ///M-Spec
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Dotini
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- CR80_Shifty
The AP reports he is under internal investigation by the FBI. The Justice Department inspector general report sharply criticized Strzok and lawyer Lisa Page for creating an appearance of impropriety. One of their texts from August, 2016 said "We'll stop it," in reference to Trumps' election win.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
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- Johnnypenso
Is it easier than missing replies?
BobK
Premium
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So the INS has a definition of "orphan" at odds with the rest of the world, then.
According to Mirriam Webster, for instance:
Merriam Webster
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
That isn't the sole definition although it is the "common usage" of the word. The further definitions are the salient ones here, particularly the legal definition (and the US legal definition at that). I see the point that you're making but for the love of Pete don't start suggesting execution to solve US immigration on the internet where Trump can see it
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- mikethehockeyfan
You guys are having all this back and forth without touching on why the Trump-era detention is so criticized:
Obama was one of if not the most hardline modern president on illegal immigration before Trump. The issue is separating the kids while the parents go through a judicial process with DOJ, and the kids get punted to HHS with no guarantee of being reunited with their families.
At least when the US interned Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII, a practice that was abhorrent, the families were kept together.
- Obama-era policy kept families detained together
- Trump's more hardline policy advisors, such as Ayn Rand-devotee Stephen Miller pushed for family separations
- So we get Trump-era policy to separate kids from their parents
Obama was one of if not the most hardline modern president on illegal immigration before Trump. The issue is separating the kids while the parents go through a judicial process with DOJ, and the kids get punted to HHS with no guarantee of being reunited with their families.
At least when the US interned Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WWII, a practice that was abhorrent, the families were kept together.
- Whenever you guys are looking for chaff to throw up in the air to dilute the argument, you simply go to the "But Obama" or "look at this dumb celebrity post on Twitter" well
Dotini
(Banned)
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Correct.
This would appear to follow "Transactional leadership style", a traditional method useful in getting results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_leadership
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- mikethehockeyfan
That's true, and its with that same transactional leadership in practice that Trump-led companies have declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy 4 times if you ask him, or 6 times if you use other fact-checking sources.
I noticed you decided to cherry-pick part of my post without addressing the gaping maw of absence of personal morality or leadership that leads someone to use putting kids alone in a concentration camp as a budget negotiating tool.
Dotini
(Banned)
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- CR80_Shifty
True again!
Transactional leadership, rather standard since the time of Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, etc, often dispenses with moral qualms, as they can get in the way of results. The leader who is cabined, cribbed, and confined, bound in to saucy doubts and fears* may find himself paralyzed to inaction.
I make no moral judgement upon Trump's actions - although I certainly could. Korea comes to mind. Right now, my task is to describe reality as it passes in front of us.
*William Shakespeare, Macbeth
Curious...
Well there is a big diffrence between why and how they are seperated between the system. Under obama for being deported under trump for entering the country.
Also why do you assume I was ok with seperation back then? I wasn't I do take a harder stance on this issue as the way it's done now is unjustifiable in any way.
Then you go off in this thread but pictures about cages is obama era... yeah don't care it was wrong in obama's era it's more wrong when kids get locked up there after being forcefully seperated from their parents by the government.
But I'm starting to see this pattern, the moment you critisise a trump policy someone has to come.in the thread and go 'but obama...' or 'but hillary...' we're not talking about obama and hillary we're talking about a trump policy. AND stop assuming that because someone dislikes a trump policy they're autimaticly a hypocrite and supported similar policies when the president had the right color. This is not football we can call out both good and bad things and don't have to follow a team like it's a religion.
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- Chrunch_Houston
So the press has been going crazy and claiming "Americans" feel the same way about these kids being taken away. Oh the horror!
Well, kids of citizens get taken away every day too. If a single parent gets arrested, their kids are sent to relatives or put into the foster care system. They don't get to go to prison with their parent.
This is such a media manufactured "crisis".
So it seems Trump's solution is an executive order to keep the families together. Yes let's just throw them all in prison.
Well, kids of citizens get taken away every day too. If a single parent gets arrested, their kids are sent to relatives or put into the foster care system. They don't get to go to prison with their parent.
This is such a media manufactured "crisis".
So it seems Trump's solution is an executive order to keep the families together. Yes let's just throw them all in prison.
Not to mention the crisis actors!
So the press has been going crazy and claiming "Americans" feel the same way about these kids being taken away. Oh the horror!
Well, kids of citizens get taken away every day too. If a single parent gets arrested, their kids are sent to relatives or put into the foster care system. They don't get to go to prison with their parent.
This is such a media manufactured "crisis".
So it seems Trump's solution is an executive order to keep the families together. Yes let's just throw them all in prison.
So you're equating parents not being able to stay with their kids due to a 'serious' felony that puts them in jail for a preset amount of time after which they often easily go back to their children with 'ow you crossed the border give me your kid, when you do get asylum you have thd right to look for yoyr kid again but we're kot going to keep track.'.
How is that remotly the same?
And kids being takin' away from their parents for no good reason is 'media manufactured'...
Scaff
Moderator
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So the press has been going crazy and claiming "Americans" feel the same way about these kids being taken away. Oh the horror!
Well, kids of citizens get taken away every day too. If a single parent gets arrested, their kids are sent to relatives or put into the foster care system. They don't get to go to prison with their parent.
This is such a media manufactured "crisis".
So it seems Trump's solution is an executive order to keep the families together. Yes let's just throw them all in prison.
Many of them are claiming asylum, which is not a criminal or civil offense in the US, and those that are not are committing (for the vast majority) a misdemeanor offence. Is it routine to arrest someone and put the kids into care for a speeding ticket in the US, how odd?
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document...s-opposition-defendants-motion-dismiss-doc-56 - Page 18 to 19
Even if you have false papers is six months max, if you don't have false papers and are simply trying to enter undocumented its a civil matter and results in a fine.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325
And yes if you do have to isolate them while the asylum claim or while they await deportation it is significantly better to hold them together, its actually more disturbing that this point even needs to be made!
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- Chrunch_Houston
All I am saying is, if a parent gets arrested, no matter what the offence, shoplifting, or crossing the border illegally, the kids don't get to go to jail with the parent. The kids are taken away.
But the kids, here in America, no matter the crime of the parent, aren't thrown out into the streets, the government takes care of them.
Crossing the border anywhere other than a legal point of entry is a crime.
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Scaff
Moderator
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A civil misdemeanor punishable by a fine, as I asked before, does the US make a habit of doing the same for speeding offences?
That is of course ignoring that this is also happening to people presenting themselves as asylum seekers at point of entry.
It's also ignoring that US policy for decades has been to house those awaiting deportation as a family unit, because it's quite frankly the right thing to do.
I'm also going to hazard a guess that his English is significantly better than your Dutch/French/German, but don't let that get in the way of a rather petty point.
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Like been posed before do you get arrested for speeding? It's illegal after all.
And do you have the possibility to find your kids in a rather easy way after they've been seperated from you, because that system is not in place for the migrants. They don't get reunited unless the parents are able to find where their kids went.
I don't think equating the 2 is legitimate. Certainly not since there was a system in place they could detain the families (as a whole) for 20 days. They could prossecute the families. So why do they need to be seperated at that point? To cause harm? That's not fair of me to say but it's the only one I can come up with it.
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- eran0004
To stay with the other parent, or to stay with a grandparent, or to stay with another relative, or to stay with a friend of the family, or to stay in foster care - in which most children stay in foster homes and only a small group (typically those who are too traumatized already to be able to stay in foster home) are institutionalized. I'm sure it's a traumatizing experience for them as well, but it's not easy to find a good solution in those cases.
In this case there is no need for separation. The parents doesn't have to go to jail just because they're crossing the border. There are better and more humane options to intern them until they can get a trial and/or be deported. It's cruel to cause more suffering than what is strictly needed.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Not in many countries. Perhaps if that's the default way in the US then that goes to show a quite different way of thinking there? And, as @Scaff pointed out, claiming asylum isn't even a crime.
McLaren
Premium
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Which goes back to a point I made earlier; people are upset over photos from Obama’s era, but they’re actually justified so... Trump did no wrong either way regarding them, but people see “kids in cages” and assign them to him. He doesn’t need falsely associated photos to be shown wrong.
Are you lots of people? No. Then it wasn’t directed at you, but the topic you brought up.
No, I shared the link bc I was told there were no kids in cages during Obama’s era.
I didn’t blame Obama did I? I blamed the media for creating the same headlines, yet nowhere near the same attention.
This policy has routes back to Clinton. Trump decided to take a zero tolerance stance and faced the backlash for doing so.
Why don’t you stop being one of the most over exaggerated people in this thread. I don’t think I’ve seen you post 1 positive thing about the current President either, hell, you come across as the next likely person to make some ugly comment about his actual life.
