America - The Official Thread

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twitcher
All of this is true, which is why I find it frustrating when people make statements like “Trump started this.” Depending how you want to define “started this,” he kind of didn’t.

I don’t say that to excuse US action in the Middle East, but more to point out that playing a game of “who started it” doesn’t serve much purpose. Hell, if we really want to go there, yes, the CIA and MI6 helped install the Shaw, this was done to appease British Petroleum, who wanted to maintain control of the oil fields. So actually, BP started this. We can go further. If the British had managed to stop or prevent the American Revolution, there would be no USA, and none of this would have happened....this is a stupid game.

However, when you say ”...if the Iranian government of the 50's had simply been allowed to develop on it's own.”, I think you’re painting a very over simplified version of world history when you say that. You cannot forget the roles that the Soviet Union and the Cold War played in American foreign policy through the second half of the 20th century. If the US would have “left the Middle East alone”, it’s impossible to actually say where the world would be at today, as that completely negates the role the Soviets would then have played in Middle Eastern politics. If the Soviets had been able to gain uncontested access to middle eastern oil, and gained control of the Suez Canal (edit, just to clarify, I know the Suez Canal is not in Iran lol. I’m talking about the ME as a whole here), we would live in a very different looking world.
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But Trump did Start this Aggression, he pulled out of a Deal with Iran that they where following, increased sanctions on them(which has destroyed their economy) and killed their military general, if that isn't being the Aggressor, What is?

Sure the history of How Iran getting to where they are wasn't Trumps fault, but the Aggression that happened Recently, that's all on Trump.
 
twitcher
I don’t say that to excuse US action in the Middle East, but more to point out that playing a game of “who started it” doesn’t serve much purpose. Hell, if we really want to go there, yes, the CIA and MI6 helped install the Shaw, this was done to appease British Petroleum, who wanted to maintain control of the oil fields. So actually, BP started this. We can go further. If the British had managed to stop or prevent the American Revolution, there would be no USA, and none of this would have happened....this is a stupid game.
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Look, playing the what-if game with history is always a bit suspect. But at the same time, as humans we're expected to at least make some effort to review our own past actions and correct them in the future if they seem to be bad. We don't bother to do this with things that are beyond our control, because that's just dumb.

In the context of the conversation, we were talking about Iran and the US. Obviously there are other parties that had influence also, but those two are pretty key at the moment. And the US has unquestionably had significant influence in the Iranian government ending up as it has today. Yes, we can debate about what it would have looked like if things had been different and yes, that's possibly not terribly productive. But the US has pretty unarguably made it's own bed with Iran.

What's kind of worse, is that the way the US has treated Iran flies strongly in the face of the founding principles of the United States themselves. The American Revolution was at least in name about having the at-the-time dominant global power recognise the sovereign status of the states. This mindset continues to the present day, Americans are very keen on freedom and local representation, and rightly so. These things are important to building a sensible and functional government.

Yet when it comes to other countries this goes out the window. Not only is the US not interested in helping more countries through the process of finding their own independence like they did themselves, they'll do the exact opposite and attempt to install their own chosen leaders who are sympathetic to America. British Colonialism V2.0. And Iran is a perfect example of this not being a one-off error in judgement or one wacky administration, but a concerted attempt to undermine another sovereign nation's ability to self-rule.

It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another to repeat the exact same mistake that caused your country to revolt and fight a war for freedom, and then complain when other countries push back. It's the bullied kid growing up to be a bully themselves, and it's gross.
 
The House has passed a non-binding resolution to reign in the war powers of a sitting President. The Senate will debate and possibly vote on a similar resolution. These mild actions are far from the reforms needed to return to Constitutional governance in terms of war powers. As a constitutionalist and libertarian I think these reforms are urgent and overdue. But today, the reality is the executive branch has been assassinating, warring and regime-changing freely since Truman. Our Congressional branch has become cowardly and corrupt and are held in low public esteem. Our national policy towards Iran is regime change. Today, crowds in Tehran are calling for the death of the Ayatollah and his regime due to the giant issue of the Ukrainian airliner shootdown. The regime finds itself in terrible peril with things going badly wrong on all fronts. US policy in Iran is closer to fruition than it has been for years. What is lacking is any carrot to tempt the whiplashed regime into the offramp of diplomatic discussions. The US and the remaining members of the busted JCPOA - United Kingdom, Russia, France, China, Germany and the European Union - need to act together to make the regime a deal it can't refuse.
 
UKMikey
I can't get in without sitting through minutes of ads and registering an account on the AJC website. Folks who'd rather not do that may want to try what I think is the original article at Reuters instead.

https://reuters.com/article/uk-iraq...r-wounded-military-sources-idUKKBN1ZB0I2?il=0
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I was trying not to post something from Fox lol. I can't win to lose when it comes to links here lol.
I didn't know that, I'm not a member of the site or subscriber of the paper. I don't see ads(I use ad blocker). Sorry bout that man.
 
Swagger897
I don’t know, what’s with shooting a passenger airline out of the sky?
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Shooting the plane was an error -similar to the error the US made in shooting down Iranian flight 655. On the other hand, publicly stating you're going to attack 52 Iranian targets, referencing the 1979 hostage crisis, is not an error ... it is an example of exactly what you referred to:

Swagger897
Christ, how far back in history do you have to go to attempt in justifying actions from recent..
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ryzno
I was trying not to post something from Fox lol. I can't win to lose when it comes to links here lol.
I didn't know that, I'm not a member of the site or subscriber of the paper. I don't see ads(I use ad blocker). Sorry bout that man.
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No harm done @ryzno, it's not your fault.
 
The Iran topic is wide and meandering, so I can't quite tell from peoples' posts. Is anyone in here claiming that it is the US's fault that Iran shot down a passenger jet? Because it's not. The US is not doing a fantastic interacting with Iran (and that has been the case for a long time), but we did not shoot down the plane.
 
I'm curious why Iran has taken responsibility, at least to the degree that they have. I get why they're trying to pass the buck--placing some of the blame for the current situation on the United States--in an effort to mitigate their own blame in actually shooting the jet down. But why even do that when you've already denied responsibility? Was it looking inevitable that the cause of the jet's downing would be determined?
 
For the third straight day, protests against the regime are increasing. It is a crime punishable by death to criticize the Ayatollah, yet they are doing it, trying to overthrow the regime. Yesterday it was reported that a protest was dispersed by fire with live ammunition. I guess Trump is in there fanning the flames with his tweets in Farsi.

Is there an existing thread on Iran? Would this topic of protest and potential change in Iran deserve its own thread?
 
Dotini
True, but the Persians are not Arabs. And it remains to be seen how far the current unrest can go before it's brutally suppressed. Probably not very far.
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From what I understand, the level of protest directed explicitly against the Ayatollah is unprecedented. Not even the Green revolution was as specific.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
From what I understand, the level of protest directed explicitly against the Ayatollah is unprecedented. Not even the Green revolution was as specific.
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Are they blaming the Ayatollah directly for all of this, including the near economic collapse? I know that they don't like Trump either.
 
Blitz24
Are they blaming the Ayatollah directly for all of this, including the near economic collapse? I know that they don't like Trump either.
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Driven by the idea that Trump might send in the troops and turn Iran into Iraq mark 2? I think I'd be protesting as well if I was them!
 
Tired Tyres
Driven by the idea that Trump might send in the troops and turn Iran into Iraq mark 2? I think I'd be protesting as well if I was them!
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Given that last Nov some 1500 protesters were shot dead, and there are rumors that live ammunition is now being used to curtail these latest protests (Iran staunchly denies this, but given their denial of shooting down the plane and their past willingness to open fire on their people.... grain of salt there for sure), I cant imagine the stones you need to be hanging to go out and protest in a country like that.
 
Blitz24
Are they blaming the Ayatollah directly for all of this, including the near economic collapse? I know that they don't like Trump either.
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I have insight into only middle class Iran...but not many of them are blaming outside foes for the government's ineptitude.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
I have insight into only middle class Iran...but not many of them are blaming outside foes for the government's ineptitude.
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Shooting down a civilian airplane leaving the country's capital could be one mistake too many.
 
Donald Trump isn't an outsider, he has Billionaires funding him, the MIC loves him just because a small percentage of the GoP don't like him doesn't make Trump an outsider, don't make me laugh.
 
mustafur
Donald Trump isn't an outsider, he has Billionaires funding him, the MIC loves him just because a small percentage of the GoP don't like him doesn't make Trump an outsider, don't make me laugh.
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It sounds like they want to round up the unbelievers and "Never-Trumpers". Rather than celebrating outsider status this sounds like they're trying to eliminate it.

tenor (1).gif
 
America's most listened to radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh announced today that he has advanced lung cancer.

If you think Rush is a racist misogynist homophobe, then you have never listened to his show. Those are lies.

I think this is his last speech, it is just a short introduction to President Trump at the Turning Point USA 2019 Student Summit. It is less than 6 minutes. I hope you are brave enough to watch.

 
Chrunch Houston
America's most listened to radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh announced today that he has advanced lung cancer.

If you think Rush is a racist misogynist homophobe, then you have never listened to his show. Those are lies.

I think this is his last speech, it is just a short introduction to President Trump at the Turning Point USA 2019 Student Summit. It is less than 6 minutes. I hope you are brave enough to watch.

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I'm not sure about a racist(but I wouldn't doubt there being something) but he is an idiot and anyone who has a functional brain would say the same thing.

He called Hurricane Irma a Liberal Hoax for Christ sakes, he is a deranged idiot.
 
mustafur
I'm not sure about a racist(but I wouldn't doubt there being something) but he is an idiot and anyone who has a functional brain would say the same thing.

He called Hurricane Irma a Liberal Hoax for Christ sakes, he is a deranged idiot.
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Ok.

Watch the speech I posted.
 

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