Ancient History, Ancient Mystery

[Dotini]

I created this thread to discuss ancient history, and associated questions and mysteries. I'll start with the ancient "handbag" mystery.

From all over the ancient world there are depictions of "handbags". These are are found in the region of Iraq and Iran dating to roughly 5000 years ago, and in North, Central and South America dating variably but surely to 2000 years ago. Remarkably, they are also seen at Gobekli Tepe (Turkey) dating to 12,000 years ago. There seems little unanimity amongst experts and amateurs alike as to what they really are and represent. I have firm opinions of my own, but perhaps you would like to review this video and chime in with your own ideas? Please feel free to submit your own images and questions.

 

[Famine]

It's a bucket.

 

[Dotini]

It's a bucket.

Could be. Some other people think so, too. Perhaps a bucket to carry water? Perhaps symbolizing the importance of water to life? One potential flaw in that idea is that the depictions generally seem to represent the object as fairly flat and small, not bulging, rounded or voluminous as it might if intended to carry liquids in useful quantity. I've not noticed an obvious spout, and the shape and proportion with close fitting handle seem ill-designed to drink from. But that said, there can be no doubting the importance of water, hydrology and water works to ancient civilization. Today all we see of the object is in stone reliefs, petroglyphs and stylized, solid objects of stone or precious mineral found in museum displays. Looking at the images of the original objects, it seems that the material might be soft and impermeable, like seal skin. Or could it be permeable, such as a woven basket?

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's a bucket.

Mostly, for sure, although a couple of those look like hand mills.

@Dotini's immersed himself in the Gobekli Tepi symbology recently so I (perhaps unkindly) expect a regurgitation of Scranton's Cod Theory of Conflated Everything. I prefer the Sweatman and Tsikritsis theory myself, well researched and sensibly self-contained.

 

[Dotini]

Mostly, for sure, although a couple of those look like hand mills.

@Dotini's immersed himself in the Gobekli Tepi symbology recently so I (perhaps unkindly) expect a regurgitation of Scranton's Cod Theory of Conflated Everything. I prefer the Sweatman and Tsikritsis theory myself, well researched and sensibly self-contained.

Sorry, never heard of Scranton, and I greatly resent your very unkind implication of me having a "cod theory of everything". However, I've read the Sweatman and Tsikritis paper. They refer to the objects repeatedly as "handbags", and say they are a zodiacal symbol, in keeping with their cosmic catastrophe theory of Gobekli Tepe. I'm not dismissing their overall theory of Gobekli Tepe, but I fail to see how the handbags as zodiacal signs fit with any - much less all - of the later representations of the handbags in other times and places. I know of no others - expert or amateur - who have claimed astronomical significance for the handbags. Are you saying that you hold the handbags, in all their representations, to be astronomical symbols? Or are you saying they are mostly buckets and "hand mills" but are zodiacal signs at Gobekli Tepe?


Hand mill.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Sorry, never heard of Scranton, and I greatly resent your very unkind implication me having a "cod theory of everything".

That was Scranton, an author who is generally want to write long garbled connections on anything in which he perceives superficial similarity.

However, I've read the Sweatman and Tsikritis paper. They refer to the objects repeatedly as "handbags", and say they are a zodiacal symbol, in keeping with their cosmic catastrophe theory of Gobekli Tepe.

They put handbags in quotes to facilitate interpretation of their photographs. They give a much more thorough, well researched explanation later on.

I'm not dismissing their overall theory of Gobekli Tepe, but I fail to see how the handbags as zodiacal signs fit with any - much less all - of the later representations of the handbags in other times and places.

Very well.

I know of no others - expert or amateur - who have claimed astronomical significance for the handbags.

Petzinger, Collins, Schmidt, there are many academics who have done exactly that. I see some of their work is cited in the paper, that would be a good starting point.

Are you saying that you hold the handbags, in all their representations, to be astronomical symbols?

Nope, and nor do I think anybody else is. Things that are superficially similar aren't necessarily linked in meaning. Nor should we conflate pictograms with 3D carving.

Or are you saying they are mostly buckets and "hand mills" but are zodiacal signs at Gobekli Tepe?

The paper gives a good view of the interpretation and the astronomical process by which that interpretation was arrived at.

I was referring to the images in the YouTube coverscreen. These items are likely buckets - we know of folklore where various characters carry different "enchanted" items or properties from place to place.

This second set look more like ritual hand mills of some kind. Revolving mills are quite lossy and not as much use in crushing things like valuable ceremonial stone (ochres, for example). That's why my first thought is that these items are reminiscent of that kind of artefact. I certainly stopped short of calling them grain mills.

 

[Dotini]

Petzinger, Collins, Schmidt, there are many academics who have done exactly that. I see some of their work is cited in the paper, that would be a good starting point.

I've ordered the work by Petzinger - looks interesting. We will see what she has to say about the handbags.

But Andrew Collins? He is no academic. Surely you cannot take this guy seriously. His inclusion in the Sweatman and Tsikritis paper's references heavily tarnishes their work as a whole. It's starting to look more like junk science now. Has it passed any kind of peer review?

Schmidt has focused virtually his whole career on Gobekli Tepe. Has he addressed himself to the "handbags" on the Vulture Stone? Has he globally researched the handbag question? Can you quote him? I doubt it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Schmidt has focused virtually his whole career on Gobekli Tepe. Has he addressed himself to the "handbags" on the Vulture Stone? Has he globally researched the handbag question? Can you quote him? I doubt it.

there is an overwhelming probability that the T-shape is the first know monumental depiction of gods.

There's a lot (obviously) of Schmidt's work linked here, well worth a read. https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com/publications/.

 

[PeterJB]

Like most people what catches my attention the most from ancient art and drawings is what to modern eyes look like alien spacecraft...

 

[PzR Slim]

Guys, guys, the need for women to go everywhere with a handbag was just as true 12,000 years ago as it is today!

 

[mcpon14]

Maybe it is a religious object, lol. I mean, there have been religious symbols that have been found in many religions like the "evil eye" and talismans, lol.

 

[Dotini]

To wrap up on the worldwide phenomenon of ancient "handbag" images, I'll state my own opinion that they were literally seed bags. Pouches full of seeds for planting crops. They symbolized the coming of agriculture into the world, a monumentally important and revolutionary development. The images from the Fertile Crescent and the "New World" generally come from times and places that are perfectly consistent with the coming of agriculture. Gobekli Tepe is sometimes said to have been built by hunter-gatherers since agriculture is not well known to have been around at that time, 12000 years ago. However, Gobekli Tepe was series of megalithic temples built over a period several of several thousand years by a sedentary culture whose builders had to have been supported in terms of foodstuffs while they were building and later burying the temples. That they had access to agricultural technology seems to me a reasonable hypothesis to work with. Somebody, somewhere had to have been first. There appear to have been many early attempts at agriculture in neolithic Europe and Egypt, as well as in the fertile crescent.

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Our next mystery is that of megalithic granite blocks found at ancient Egyptian sites including the Great Pyramid which appear to have been fashioned with tools harder than wood, bone and copper. Tool marks suggestive of high speed saws and drills have been documented in many books, articles and videos. Here I present just one of dozens available.

 

[TheCracker]

Seems to me, without watching the video, that again the simplest answer is the most likely. These 'handbags' are heavy stone (or bronze?) objects that are either moved around frequently or are carried or held during some religious ceremony so a handle has been incorporated into the design to make it easier or so as not to obscure whatever important symbol is represented on it by the hands that hold it. Or they just symbolise the bag, or bucket, that holds an important element, grains or liquids, in the ceremony.

 

[Liquid]

The idea of a convenience perceived as being "modern" despite having its roots far further back in history than is popularly believed isn't new and shouldn't be surprising. Hardly an authoritative source but OlderThanTheyThink on TVTropes gives some food for thought.

I don't see the need to jump through a leap of faith in some mystic or supernatural explanation. In our arrogance at current knowledge, our ancestors might actually have been cleverer and more practical than we thought.

 

[TheCracker]

I don't see the need to jump through a leap of faith in some mystic or supernatural explanation. In our arrogance at current knowledge, our ancestors might actually have been cleverer and more practical than we thought.

Given 30 years and a hundred thousand slaves at your disposal, i can easily comprehend large stones being carved and sculpted into perfectly symmetrical blocks using, by our modern standards, only rudimentary tools.

 

[Dotini]

Given 30 years and a hundred thousand slaves at your disposal, i can easily comprehend large stones being carved and sculpted into perfectly symmetrical blocks using, by our modern standards, only rudimentary tools.

I believe modern archeologists have ruled out that the Great Pyramid or Gobekli Tepe were built by slaves.

 

[TheCracker]

I believe modern archeologists have ruled out that the Great Pyramid or Gobekli Tepe were built by slaves.

*shrugs* Replace 'a hundred thousand slaves' with 'a hundred thousand dedicated professional builders' and it makes no difference.

 

[Dotini]

*shrugs* Replace 'a hundred thousand slaves' with 'a hundred thousand dedicated professional builders' and it makes no difference.

I suppose they could have been instructed to laboriously leave the tool marks of high speed saws and drills as well. *shrugs*

 

[Dennisch]

I suppose they could have been instructed to laboriously leave the tool marks of high speed saws and drills as well.

Giorgio, is that you?

 

[Dotini]

Giorgio, is that you?

If you have the time and interest to view the videos showing said tool marks (obviously most of us don't have the time or interest in even minimal scholarship for an internet post. Oh well, that's the risk I take for attempting this) I could post some of them. None of them are from "Giorgio", whoever he is. FWIW, none - repeat none - of the posts I make in this thread are to do with aliens. And none of the videos. (If you can ignore the parenthesized teaser title in post #12)

I hold that the pyramids, and agriculture, are strictly human developments.

 

[Dennisch]

Giorgio

 

[Dotini]

Works of art from quartz diorite and porphyry.


Core drilling, sawing, high precision, requiring diamond cutting bits, 5 meter diameter circular saw




Saw cuts, tool marks


There are dozens of these sorts of video proofs of saw and drilling tool marks.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Core drilling, sawing, high precision, requiring diamond cutting bits, 5 meter diameter circular saw

Tool marks, saw marks, drilling marks, a yes to those. I think in this age of being able to transmit incredible amounts of torque through powered machine heads these video makers have underestimated what you could do with a virtually infinite enslaved/indentured workforce.

 

[Dennisch]

a virtually infinite enslaved/indentured workforce.

And time. Lots and lots of time.

Edit.

Too often it seems that people think that humans of the bronze/iron age were retarded hairless monkeys or something. They pretty much had the same thinking power as we did, could be a bit less, but still.

 

[Dotini]

Now that my point that advanced tools and technology were available to the ancient builders of pre-dynastic and first dynasty Egyptians is well accepted, we may move on. In no way do I assert that copious human power was not employed. I, and certainly modern archeologists, would however deny the use of slavery and indentured servitude in the building of the Great Pyramid. They allude to small communities or guilds of highly skilled and motivated craftspeople, well-fed, well-housed and well-rewarded. Their tidy and well-appointed dwellings next to the pyramid have been excavated. In addition to human power, it is a near certainty that water-power, hydrology, was a principle source of power for that project.

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Next, if you've actually been following things, we come to looking at the rise and fall of these advanced builders. Catastrophe clearly played a role in the civilization that built Gobekli Tepe, and so it did with the builders of the Sphinx and Great Pyramid.

The well-known catastrophe that befell the builders of Gobekli Tepe was the sudden end of the ice age, the sudden cooling event that reversed it, and the final sudden warming. Gobekli Tepe was carefully buried about 8000 BCE, likely employing as much effort in the burying as it took in the building.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Now that my point that advanced tools and technology were available to the ancient builders of pre-dynastic and first dynasty Egyptians is well accepted, we may move on.

Define "advanced tools and technology"?

 

[Dotini]

Define "advanced tools and technology"?

Simply the tools and technology that made the holes and cuts you already acknowledged in the videos; drills and saws using materials superior to wood, bone and copper. In other words, materials and technology not heretofore widely understood or known to have been employed prior to the Bronze and Iron Ages. I'm talking about a civilization fairly more advanced than what has been previously accepted. Too radical a notion for you? I so, we can stop here and go no further. If you're not with me, I'm not going. *shrugs*

 

[TenEightyOne]

Simply the tools and technology that made the holes and cuts you already acknowledged in the videos; drills and saws using materials superior to wood, bone and copper. In other words, materials and technology not heretofore widely understood or known to have been employed prior to the Bronze and Iron Ages. I'm talking about a civilization fairly more advanced than what has been previously accepted. Too radical a notion for you? I so, we can stop here and go no further. If you're not with me, I'm not going. *shrugs*

When you say "far more advanced than what has previously been accepted" then no, I'm not with you. There's been plenty of research into how Egyptians could have worked stone the way they did. With the terms "bronze and iron ages" I infer that you're talking about European/Baltic civilisations - we know that around the same era their stoneworking was nowhere near as complex even if their goldworking was (in parts).

There are some links between various civilisations at that time in terms of trade but it seems from the spread of development that trade-valuable technologies were kept as secret then as they are now. "Advanced" stoneworking was present in certain Mediterranean regions (like Egypt in antiquity) in forms that we have no contemporaneous evidence for in Celtic Europe.

 

[Dotini]

When you say "far more advanced than what has previously been accepted" then no, I'm not with you. There's been plenty of research into how Egyptians could have worked stone the way they did. With the terms "bronze and iron ages" I infer that you're talking about European/Baltic civilisations - we know that around the same era their stoneworking was nowhere near as complex even if their goldworking was (in parts).

There are some links between various civilisations at that time in terms of trade but it seems from the spread of development that trade-valuable technologies were kept as secret then as they are now. "Advanced" stoneworking was present in certain Mediterranean regions (like Egypt in antiquity) in forms that we have no contemporaneous evidence for in Celtic Europe.

I didn't say "far", I said "fairly", But anyway, okay, fine. I'm done!
Someone else should take a whirl.

 

[Dotini]

History/Mystery trivia question: What famous British castle withstood a 7 year siege? Please include a photo in your answer.
Hint: The idealized castle below isn't it, but looked similar.