Antifa/jews vs White nationalists/Nazis

Discussion in 'Opinions & Current Events' started by Novalee, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

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    One website is an indicate that the right trolls more than the left? Gonna need more sources than that.
    Neither link says who trolls more than the other. That's a claim that is incredibly difficult to monitor across the web.
    4chan is not a right-wing site to troll the left, it's a site that trolls everybody esp. by creating itself as this massive, unstoppable community during important, controversial events (like net neutrality). The site only really shows just how powerful it is when they feel the need to right a wrong by doxxing trouble makers online (like a monster throwing an animal into a river in a bag). It's a site that basically sits on the edge of the normal web and the deep web where everything is free game to be ridiculed and no one cares about your political stance. You can post about Trump or Obama and someone will insult you.

    Reddit is viewed more Left because a neutral-sounding sub such as r/politics is really just a place to call conservatives scum as the Top comment, and Controversial comments are the opposite from right-wingers. The only subs you can't troll are the ones clearly defined on their stance. Thankfully, most subs will ban you for political debate if it has nothing to do with their subreddits.
     
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  2. PocketZeven

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    Let me rephrase. Since I could not find a credible research into this. The right are more organised then the left when it comes to trolling.

    This also comes from an experiment I did trying to go exclusively rightwing media for my news, for a week. My own observation were that the right are more agressive in their comments. Words like libtards, shoot, kill, die were much more prevelant. It would be more interesting if there was real research in this.

    I found that both left and right use "nazi" interestingly. Both used inappropiately though. Both left and rightwing trolls dont seem to know what Nazi's are.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  3. McLaren

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    This requires a citation just the same.
    Here's some comments from an exclusively leftwing media site. Note these people's names are in full display b/c they are linked to their Facebooks, however, I will not share them. Most of these are from the last 2 days as the site actively posts articles. There's 10 today alone.
    The reply to it.
    These comments below were in response to an article about Graham and another person he took a picture with. Thought we actively pushed against using homosexuality as insults towards others?
    Indecency is on both sides.
     
  4. Wolfe

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    The useful distinction is that each side's indecency is motivated and self-excused by certain morals or values. Pro-life disgust of "legalized murder"; pro-choice disgust of "misogyny". Anti-immigration fear of violent criminals or incompatible values; cosmopolitan fear of violent racism, xenophobia, or white supremacy. And so on.

    With the exception of ordinary internet trolls, people on both sides think they're advocating for justice. Both sides virtue signal. That's why they think nothing of signing their social-media-verified name & identity off on vile statements or threats, as @McLaren pointed out -- even thought leaders or celebrities, etc. They're simply standing up for what's "right", against one or another flavor of "evil". Paranoia, intolerance of dissent, and violent clashes are logical extensions of the rhetoric. It all needs to be de-escalated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  5. Novalee

    Novalee

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  6. PocketZeven

    PocketZeven

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    This is all anecdotal, just like my own experiences. I can bring up many examples even more extreme from rightwing media sites.

    If you do want to translate into the real world one could compare actual violent deaths out of political motivations. This is where rightwing extremists are more prevelant.
     
  7. McLaren

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    You claimed the right trolls more than the left and use examples of speech used.

    I show you examples that the left does the same, that there’s no way to prove who trolls more and you write off the argument as anecdotal with your own examples. Why even bring it up?

    Irrelevant argument.

    You brought up who trolls the other more, wrote it off when it couldn’t be proven and moved on to physical evidence when it was never argued otherwise.
     
  8. PocketZeven

    PocketZeven

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    I clearly explained this was within my experience. I also said that the left does much of the same. I did not say the far left does not. My point was that the far right is more organised then the far left. I also did not right off your argument, I just added that my experiences and your views are both anecdotal. To really measure the concequences of left/right trolling is violence in society and that is were far right statistically are more violent in numbers of casualties. The relevance is that trolling does translate to that few crazy people acting upon their trolling or the of support of the movement.

    That said both far right/left that are violent and should be condemned. But answer me this, would far right exist without far left and visa versa? To me a an extremist group like antifa are a reaction to the extreme right (which they call fascists). It isnt untill recently that the extremists on the left have been much more active and I think that is in reaction to the wave of empowered rightwing extremists that " feel" empowered by the current POTUS.
     
  9. McLaren

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    Of which you've been asked to prove.
    Only after I displayed similar remarks made by left-leaning folks?

    You're once again making the claim the right trolls more than the left and are now using physical attacks to back up that claim. I presume you have actual evidence showing right-wing attackers spent their time trolling others beforehand?

    By the way, your description of trolling seems misinformed. Trolling is the deliberate sharing of controversial opinions only to provoke a reaction/antagonize others. They're typically not serious-held views, just random statements meant to bait people into a state of mind and argue. If you're attempting to link the far right being more active in physically attacking others linked to "trolling", that would imply the left actually trolls more and provokes them into doing so. But, a person does not go repeatedly trolling the left with, "Liberals like to kill babies", "gays can't handle military weapons", etc. and then actively carry out an attack because of those beliefs. That's not trolling to provoke an argument for the "lulz", that's a person honestly sharing an outlandish opinion and will more than likely either dive deep into debate over it or insult anyone who challenges it. Trolls don't invest much time into their comments.
     
  10. PocketZeven

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    You seem very protective of right wing idelogies. But I already stated I could not find research on the topic and admitted my experiences are anecdotal. I am not claiming it as fact, but from personal experience. Once again the claim is from personal experience and without any research on the subject I cannot back it up as factual. Hence the discussion.

    I do now what trolling means but to elaborate, I was not only referring to political comments, but also misogynistic and racist comments. But then again you might be right and I wrong as long as I can’t find factual evidence.
     
  11. McLaren

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    That's under the presumption once again, that trolling is a right wing characteristic.

    But hey, when you can't provide evidence, just throw a conviction at the person you're debating of condoning that which you're debating. How far left/right of you.
    So what I'm seeing is you can make a claim, admit to finding no research to back it up, yet continue to support that claim under your own research because you "rephrased" it. But I can't counter it using your same basis of research because then it's anecdotal yet you add you have more evidence none the less to 1up me.

    Oh, and of course, change goal posts by introducing physical attacks into the discussion to support your view.
     
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  12. TenEightyOne

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    I get what you're saying, but you're arguing a point that is self-evidently wrong because (by your own admission) your own experience doesn't contradict that.

    Here's an experiment: go and look up some female politicians on Twitter. Pick some from the Tories and some from Labour. It's fair to say that the strongest critics of each will come largely from opposing ideologies. Read through the kinds of responses that they get and see if you can really only find bile and tossertude on one side of the ideological divide. Dick heads are dick heads, their ideology is irrelevant to that.
     
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  13. SestoScudo

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    How is Antifa fascist when its mainly formed by socialists, communists and anarchists.

    They use violence is used as argument well violence is not only exclusive to fascists.
     
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  14. PocketZeven

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    I agree to that wholeheartedly. I guess untill someone does the research we wont know. All extreme groups should be condemned, their ideology is irrelevant. However the far left/right media like to fuel the fire too much. I cringe everytime i read nazi, facsist, snowflake or libtard. The worst offenders are these opinionated websites and youtube channels that disguise themselves as "news".
     
  15. Novalee

    Novalee

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  16. Northstar

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  17. Dennisch

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    A link will be provided shortly.
     
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  18. Novalee

    Novalee

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    it is self explaining of how memes are used by nazis and white supremists.
     
  19. Northstar

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    ...Pretty sure the "Hitler did nothing wrong" meme was just 4chan doing 4chan stuff.
     
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  20. TenEightyOne

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    And only by them?

    Which (as intended) always turns everything on its head. The problem with 4Chan is you can't tell who's trolling the chan and who's actually buying into the cesspool.
     
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  21. Novalee

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    were did i say only by them ? again lets debate what i i d say and not what pops up in your head that you wish i said .

    i like to think i am talking to a real person and not someone who hears imaginary voices .
     
  22. TenEightyOne

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    So how do you think memes are used specifically by nazis and white supremacists in a way that differs from how other extreme groups use them? You presumably chose to name those groups specifically for a reason?
     
  23. Novalee

    Novalee

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    i did yes . i was raised nazis bad . im sorry if that offends you . But im a leopard and i cant change my spots . i am stuck in my ways now .
     
  24. TenEightyOne

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    So how do you think memes are used specifically by nazis and white supremacists in a way that differs from how other extreme groups use them?
     
  25. Novalee

    Novalee

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    there is no difference in using memes. it is the ideology behind them that matters to me .
     
  26. PocketZeven

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    Recently “nazi demonrats” is a popular way I see to troll during the democratic debates. Their reasoning? Nazis where socialists:banghead:
     
  27. Northstar

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    So what exactly is the ideology behind the particular meme in question? Because going by the graph in the link you provided it's just another generic 4chan meme/troll aimed at getting people riled up over nothing. If there really was something truly sinister behind it, the "Hitler" pronoun wouldn't be far overshadowed by the adverb like it is.

    hitler.PNG

    Granted I'm sure there are white supremacists who take the meme's seriously, but that in itself doesn't mean the meme was created by or for them.
     
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  28. Novalee

    Novalee

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    well you have your views and i have mine. i accept that and you should also . im iming to watch the climate strike and participate when its is my towns turn. have a good day / night .
     
  29. McLaren

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    This is like the exact intended outcome of a 4Chan troll, someone actually thinking a KnowYourMeme page explaining how memes are used by Nazis. :lol:

    Read your own link, it was a joke name used way, way back because Mountain Dew had a naming contest. As we've seen through countless times on the web, when you give the Internet power to name a popular item, it will be met with gags to see how serious the brand is. In this case, "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong" & "Gushing Granny" were the top choices by pure comedy intent.
    https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/dub-the-dew

    Your own link even shows its origin back in 2012 for the contest.
    What they claim to be, and what they end up doing can be different. Same reason they claim to use violence in self-defense, yet I don't see how destroying businesses and street items as somehow, life-threatening objects....

    They end up more like fascists because they behave like fascists did. They threaten those who say things they don't like (not even necessarily Nazism/White supremacy-related) with violence in order to subdue others' opinions they deem unacceptable.
    https://wagingnonviolence.org/2018/04/antifa-effective-broad-anti-fascist-movement/

    That's a big issue because Antifa tries govern hate speech as they define, not what society or law may see it as. Therefore, if big enough, one may be afraid to voice an opinion else Antifa may feel the need to threaten or dox (as they have done) that person only because Antifa does not see that opinion as fit to be shared. And Antifa's entire justification for this behavior is believing they need to stop fascism (again, as they define it) before it can ever begin.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  30. Northstar

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    So, do you have an answer to my question?

    You came into this thread and posted a link saying the meme had a certain ideology behind it. So, what is that ideology? :confused:

    Now, I fully accept that you have different views and respect that fact. But this is a discussion forum so don't be shocked when people decide to take you up on a discussion you obviously wanted to have.
     
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