Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum


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Similarly, the human garbage who wrote this language-mangled pontification about using the right language, should not - but will, because we don't have free speech in the UK - face any police prosecution for this action.
It depends on the circumstances. If someone feels threatened by it and notifies the Police then there should be investigation. The results of which should determine whether there's any need to prosecute.
Don't confuse "free speech" with "total absence of consequence from speaking".
I agree with you but I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that I had confused them.
And we don't have it in the UK in any case.
It's not constitutionally protected but everyone in the UK is free to express any view without fear of prosecution or persecution by government, unless it can be proven they have broken a law.
 
It depends on the circumstances.
But shouldn't. No-one should be prosecuted for expressing themselves - nor be free of any consequences for doing so.
It's not constitutionally protected but everyone in the UK is free to express any view without fear of prosecution or persecution by government, unless it can be proven they have broken a law.
Which means no-one is free to express any view without fear of prosecution or persecution by government. All government has to do is create a law that makes certain types of expression a crime, and call it a "hate crime", then they can prosecute away. We already have, and we used it to lock up a guy who videoed his dog doing Nazi salutes. Dude's a tosspot, but now he's also a criminal for saying "sieg heil" while his dog held its paw up.
I agree with you but I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that I had confused them.
I didn't say that you had.
 
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Thankfully, Brexit and a general shift towards right wing politics, has pushed them into the mainstream.
Perhaps, but I find the notion that we are all just gonna roll over and let the Hugo Boss overcoats come back into fashion and start booting people out of the country just because we left the EU, frankly laughable.

And I mean that opinion coming from both sides; those right wingers emboldened by a perceived victory, and those left wingers crying the end is nigh and insisting that this was the work of some unknown third Reich remnant within the conservative party.

We didn't win two world wars and a referendudum to become Nazi Germany.
 
I hope the originator of the poster isn't planning on forcing people to speak their English with a Norwich accent. That'd be hard going for me.
 
But shouldn't. No-one should be prosecuted for expressing themselves - nor be free of any consequences for doing so.
It should. For example, if a person expressing their view in a way that is threatening or intimidating to an individual or individuals, then they should face prosecution if necessary. If someone repeatedly posts notes like the one in question outside the residence of an immigrant, they should be prosecuted.
Which means no-one is free to express any view without fear of prosecution or persecution by government. All government has to do is create a law that makes certain types of expression a crime, and call it a "hate crime",
If there is a specific victim then their right to feel safe is more important than an individual's freedom to express their opinion.
We already have, and we used it to lock up a guy who videoed his dog doing Nazi salutes. Dude's a tosspot, but now he's also a criminal for saying "sieg heil" while his dog held its paw up.
I'm all for people expressing themselves however they please on the internet or in public without fear of prosecution, if there is no specific individual targeted. If, however, that guy had sent a link to his Jewish neighbour, then the law should get involved.

My point is that there are circumstances where people should be prosecuted for expressing a view, not that every bigoted opinion expressed should be subject to a police investigation.
 
It should.
No. No-one should ever face prison for speech.
For example, if a person expressing their view in a way that is threatening or intimidating to an individual or individuals, then they should face prosecution if necessary. If someone repeatedly posts notes like the one in question outside the residence of an immigrant, they should be prosecuted.
Why?
If there is a specific victim then their right to feel safe is more important than an individual's freedom to express their opinion.
There is no "right to feel safe" and there is no situation where rights - real rights, not laws - have to be weighed against one another to decide which is more important.
I'm all for people expressing themselves however they please on the internet or in public without fear of prosecution, if there is no specific individual targeted. If, however, that guy had sent a link to his Jewish neighbour, then the law should get involved.
Why? What about an eight pound dog holding its paw up is going to cause a Jew to fear for their lives?

The guy posted it on his Youtube channel. Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, gypsies, Slavs, and all kinds of other people that the Nazis declared "untermensch" and had rounded up and worked to death or executed were able to see it, as were people descended from Nazis and those descended from the people who fought them.

Why is he now a criminal for doing that?

My point is that there are circumstances where people should be prosecuted for expressing a view, not that every bigoted opinion expressed should be subject to a police investigation.
There are zero circumstances where someone should be prosecuted for expressing a view - because once you start saying certain views are criminal to hold there is literally no end point for what views are criminal. This is, however, how the UK now works with hate speech laws.

There are however myriad situations where someone should face consequences in civil courts, or disciplinary action at their work, or in this case a possible eviction for breaching tenancy agreements.
 
No-one should ever face prison for speech.
Except if that speech is judged to be harassment, intimidation, or threatening. Admittedly one incident shouldn't result in prison time, but that doesn't mean someone should be free to express themselves any way they choose without risk of being prosecuted.
Because some laws exist to prevent intimidation, harassment and threats.
There is no "right to feel safe" and there is no situation where rights - real rights, not laws - have to be weighed against one another to decide which is more important.
Many laws are designed to satisfy an individual's (and society's) right to feel safe. The term itself is somewhat vague.
Why? What about an eight pound dog holding its paw up is going to cause a Jew to fear for their lives?
I don't know. In this hypothetical situation if the Jew in question reported it to the police it should be investigated. The results of that investigation would determine whether there should be criminal charges. The very act of making that video and sending the link to a Jewish neighbour is enough to begin an investigation, if reported.
The guy posted it on his Youtube channel. Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, gypsies, Slavs, and all kinds of other people that the Nazis declared "untermensch" and had rounded up and worked to death
or executed were able to see it, as were people descended from Nazis and those descended from the people who fought them.

Why is he now a criminal for doing that?
I don't think he should be. There's no way to determine that any specific individual was targeted by that video. That is not a situation where someone should be prosecuted imo.
There are zero circumstances where someone should be prosecuted for expressing a view
There are some.
once you start saying certain views are criminal to hold there is literally no end point for what views are criminal.
I didn't say certain views should be criminal to hold. It's only a criminal act if expressing those views violates another law. Take, for example, this note posted on the door. If it were put on a railing in central London then we can be fairly sure that there is no individual being specifically targeted. People might be offended, but it's unlikely that someone will feel personally threatened. However, in a block of flats, the potential number of people that see it is greatly reduced. Therefore, if a potential victim reports it, it should be investigated to see if a spcific individual or group are the intended target of the note.
 
@MatskiMonk hahaha, well I went in Weatherspoons (of course the Brexiteer's place of choice - for the record i'm a Remainer) on Friday, and a guy there in a Conservative Party shirt with blue Union flags etched on, and one of those silly little place Union flag hats that could double as a sick bowl... pub down road from mine ran a "Brexit Party" which had everyone with english flags otherwise and customers coming out and abusing Asian guys across road... wonderful...
 
@MatskiMonk hahaha, well I went in Weatherspoons (of course the Brexiteer's place of choice - for the record i'm a Remainer) on Friday, and a guy there in a Conservative Party shirt with blue Union flags etched on, and one of those silly little place Union flag hats that could double as a sick bowl... pub down road from mine ran a "Brexit Party" which had everyone with english flags otherwise and customers coming out and abusing Asian guys across road... wonderful...
Brining back the spirit of VE Day
 
Labour get the prize for Freudian Slip of the Day when they responded to Dominic Raab's statement on the UK's 'trade deal vision', suggesting that the UK commits to a 'level praying field'. Perhaps he's right...

Also, a quick note to say Happy 4th Birthday to this thread... :cheers:
 
Also, a quick note to say Happy 4th Birthday to this thread... :cheers:

I'd like to have wished this thread and Brexit in general 'many happy returns'. But please god no. Make it stop.

I was meant to have been out on a works do on Friday night, but an impromptu vet visit put paid to that. Instead i had a night in in front of the telly. Wall to wall bloody Brexit programs. On every. Damn. Channel. FFS.
 
Also, a quick note to say Happy 4th Birthday to this thread... :cheers:
Now that Brexit is an accomplished fact, is there the prospect this thread could be subsumed into the Britain - The Official Thread? In other words, will the Brexit thread go on in perpetuity or until the UK rejoins the EU?
 
Now that Brexit is an accomplished fact, is there the prospect this thread could be subsumed into the Britain - The Official Thread? In other words, will the Brexit thread go on in perpetuity or until the UK rejoins the EU?

214 pages on this topic should be merged with the 315 page Britain thread?

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Brexit will continue to be an interesting topic on its own for decades.
 
The UK is about to shoot itself in both feet
Britain’s demands for its negotiations with the EU are unrealistic
https://www.ft.com/content/de2a1e52-4677-11ea-aee2-9ddbdc86190d

Boris Johnson has an autonomy fetish. The UK prime minister’s fetish is the belief that his country not only has the sovereign right to shoot itself in both feet, but also has a duty to do so if the alternative is to allow EU institutions any role in its affairs. Brexit, he insists, means autonomy. If he persists with this demand, it is likely that, early next year, the UK will suffer the complete rupture of trading relationships it has built up over 47 years. Yesterday, the British government presented its demands for these negotiations. Unfortunately, they are unrealistic in three respects: the first is the hope that any agreement will be between “sovereign equals”; the second is the belief that the EU would agree a Canada-style agreement; and the third is that an Australian relationship with the EU, governed by World Trade Organization rules, is a reasonable alternative. As a matter of international law, the UK is sovereign. But sovereignty is not the same thing as power. The EU has 446m people, against the UK’s 66m. Its economy is almost six times as big as the UK’s. The EU is also much less dependent on trade with the UK than is true the other way round. Let us be clear: this is not a relationship between equals. The difficulty for the UK in its relationship with the EU is rather that it is too small to be an equal and too big not to matter. It is almost as important a trading partner of the EU as the US. That is because distance is crucial in determining bilateral trade flows. Since the UK is a far more important trading partner of the EU than Canada, the bloc is also more wary of Britain’s capacity to disrupt its economy. At the same time, for Australia, trade with the EU is negligible. But the EU is the UK’s most important trading partner. The UK must not accept the same trade relationship with the EU as Australia’s. The EU’s characteristically thorough mandate for the talks makes clear how it sees the negotiations. First, Brussels sees the “new partnership” as a “single package”. This is to cover “general arrangements” including the provisions on governance; “economic arrangements including trade and level playing field guarantees” (my emphasis); and security arrangements including law enforcement and judicial co-operation, foreign policy, security and defence. Second, the issues are many and complex. These include data protection, participation in EU and Euratom nuclear programmes, trade in goods and services, intellectual property, public procurement, mobility of people, aviation, road transport, energy, fisheries, judicial co-operation, foreign policy co-operation and cyber security. It beggars belief that all this can be agreed and ratified within a year. The idea that the UK should walk away if all this cannot be agreed in that brief time seems insane. Finally, the EU states that “given the . . . UK’s geographic proximity and economic interdependence, the envisaged partnership must ensure open and fair competition . . . To that end, the envisaged agreement should uphold the common high standards in the areas of state aid, competition, state-owned enterprises, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change, and relevant tax matters.” What the EU is saying here is that your autonomy stops where it inconveniences us. If the UK insists upon it, then the deal it seeks may not be agreed. To the reasonable conclusion that no deal is likely, three replies are possible. The first is that the EU will give in. That is quite unlikely. For the EU to back down on the issue of the “level playing field”, to take one example, would require it to trust the UK not to compete by undermining the EU’s standards. But what else — the EU will ask — is all this freedom for? What else have Brexiters been saying it is for? You are asking us to trust you, Mr Johnson. Why should we? A second response is that it does not matter to the UK if no deal is reached. But it does. Even if the failure were “only” on the trade aspects of the negotiations, with other parts agreed, which is unlikely, the costs for the UK of a sudden disruption might be huge. In 2018, the government’s own analysis concluded that the UK economy might end up between 6 and 9 per cent smaller, in the long run, under a “no-deal” scenario. This is significantly worse than the already bad outcome of a free trade agreement in goods. Moreover, a sudden shift from current arrangements would impose a shock. The UK would not, as Mr Johnson claims, “prosper mightily”. Responsible governments do not inflict such shocks on their economies. A last response is that, in the end, Mr Johnson will retreat from his red lines. That is what he did last October over the Irish border issue, when he accepted the economic dismemberment of his own country, something his predecessor had refused outright, all the while denying he had done any such thing. The ability to surrender while successfully insisting that one has not is a form of genius. Maybe, the prime minister can find a description for humiliating surrenders that dress them up as great victories. I would certainly not put it past him. Recommended Attend a live recording of the FT UK Politics podcast This, however, is hope against hope. As things stand, there is a fundamental conflict over the scope of the envisaged agreements, over governance of the new deal and, probably most vexing, over data, fish and the “level playing field”. There is in brief much disagreement over the nature of the prospective relationship and very little time in which to agree. A likely result is no deal. If so, the greater the ensuing disruption, the more the Johnson government is likely to try to blame it on the EU. It might even seek revenge, possibly by trying to ally itself with the US against the EU. Above all, remember this: a limited free trade agreement would be better than no deal; but it will still hurt.

To clarify, this is an opinion, but from a very respected source, not least because it is one published in the FT.
Martin Wolf is chief economics commentator at the Financial Times, London. He was awarded the CBE (Commander of the British Empire) in 2000 “for services to financial journalism”.
 
I do not know if the UK wants to do a free trade deal with US. Maybe this is not the right way for you to go.

However, in the event such a deal is desired, it stands to be scuppered by a UK deal with Huawei on 5G. Huawei is under investigation and prosecution in re US national security.

US law enforcement needs access to your communications just like it does ours. AG Barr has remarked the US may take an interest in partnering with Nokia and/or Ericsson.
 
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I just know that they only do this so that Europe keeps using American hardware, with all those sweet US-only backdoors.
You know when I heard of this 5G problem I googled who fits Japan's 5G network. Answer? Samsung. How hard could it be.....
 
I just know that they only do this so that Europe keeps using American hardware, with all those sweet US-only backdoors.

I actually think this is the key to the issue, but the other way around. Imagine the NSA or GCHQ having to give Huawei details of how their own back-door protocols need to operate. Not going to happen.
 
Ok guys, real talk... Brexit positives!

Post-Brexit ‘free ports’ will let companies and super-rich avoid tax, Labour warns
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-free-ports-tax-trade-brexit-labour-john-mcdonnell-a9325971.html

Brexiters, this is what you voted for! To help make the rich, richer... finally getting the result you all wanted! :D
Interesting to note that we could have done that without leaving the EU, as nothing in EU law stops you setting up freeports.

The UK did have freeports until 2012, when they were closed by a change in UK law!

https://fullfact.org/europe/free-ports/
 
Interesting to note that we could have done that without leaving the EU, as nothing in EU law stops you setting up freeports.

The UK did have freeports until 2012, when they were closed by a change in UK law!

https://fullfact.org/europe/free-ports/

I imagine that, without EU restrictions they'll be more open than EU freeports...

EU state aid rules generally prohibit EU governments from providing support to certain companies over their competitors.

Favours to friends etc...
 

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