Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum


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So, I order quite a few watches from Ali Express. Some are very well made homages of very expensive Swiss watches at a very reasonable price.

Some of the Ali Express stores have distribution warehouses in Europe which cuts down delivery time from 20-40 days to usually a week. Just gone to order a watch in a flash sale from the Spanish distribution centre of one store and I'm met by the message that they no longer deliver from this location to my country. Tried a couple of other stores selling the same watch, same result. Brexit Britain everyone. This is my first taste of the changes Brexit will introduce. Not keen.


Big part of the problem is, external companies selling into the UK are now required to register for and collect VAT for any goods sold to a UK resident. This is a bit of a problem, especially for small companies such as my wife's who really isn't going to be able to justify registering with HMRC for the few sales into the UK she gets. I like our solution in Canada much better, which basically makes the inbound freight companies responsible for collecting duties and taxes. Obviously this does add to the cost of shipping, but it works.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ods-into-northern-ireland-from-outside-the-eu
 
Big part of the problem is, external companies selling into the UK are now required to register for and collect VAT for any goods sold to a UK resident. This is a bit of a problem, especially for small companies such as my wife's who really isn't going to be able to justify registering with HMRC for the few sales into the UK she gets. I like our solution in Canada much better, which basically makes the inbound freight companies responsible for collecting duties and taxes. Obviously this does add to the cost of shipping, but it works.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ods-into-northern-ireland-from-outside-the-eu

As a UK customer, I have have mixed feelings about it from a practical PoV. On the one hand, I assume it means no more 'handling fees' charged by couriers - those basically made any purchase much less than £100 hugely uneconomical, considering we're already paying quite a bit for shipping (especially from US and Canada) - so that's good. On the other, there's maybe no way to get away with not paying VAT on things, which many have taken advantage of in the past with low marked values (esp. from China).

As a UK taxpayer, I suppose I ought to be glad that a loophole is being plugged. But I can't really agree that it's a just way to do it - the onus has always been on the importer of record in the past, be it business or consumer, and that seemed fair.

Overall I guess this is the way we should've seen things going as the next step beyond e.g. Amazon and ebay offering pre-paid taxes when shipping to us. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me if the EU has a similar change coming soon.

Considering the sellers Pov, it's not particularly onerous to be VAT registered and pay the tax due, not sure how many sales it would take for it to be worthwhile but I imagine not a lot. I'd guess the main problem is actually that e-commerce providers will have to update website stuff to handle charging it at correct rates.
 
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As a UK customer, I have have mixed feelings about it from a practical PoV. On the one hand, I assume it means no more 'handling fees' charged by couriers - those basically made any purchase much less than £100 hugely uneconomical, considering we're already paying quite a bit for shipping (especially from US and Canada) - so that's good. On the other, there's maybe no way to get away with not paying VAT on things, which many have taken advantage of in the past with low marked values (esp. from China).

As a UK taxpayer, I suppose I ought to be glad that a loophole is being plugged. But I can't really agree that it's a just way to do it - the onus has always been on the importer of record in the past, be it business or consumer, and that seemed fair.

Overall I guess this is the way we should've seen things going as the next step beyond e.g. Amazon and ebay offering pre-paid taxes when shipping to us. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me if the EU has a similar change coming soon.

Considering the sellers Pov, it's not particularly onerous to be VAT registered and pay the tax due, not sure how many sales it would take for it to be worthwhile but I imagine not a lot. I'd guess the main problem is actually that e-commerce providers will have to update website stuff to handle charging it at correct rates.

I'll not comment on other parts of the post but let's be honest. The importer of record (business or consumer) only paid extra duty on "undervalued" imports if they got "caught" (i.e. HMRC checked it at the border and charged the correct duty to release the item). How many posts have you seen on forums where people express surprise at having to pay extra duty? How many times does that not happen in comparison?

The problems with relying on the end user to effectively "check" the duty paid, is it simply does not work and duty is massively underpaid and always has been.

a) businesses won't pay extra unless they have to (keeps their costs down). I've personally dealt with businesses that bought in bulk from China and had a pretty good idea that the duty was probably underpaid due to goods being undervalued. Their only concern was making sure the paperwork tied up (if it doesnt, HMRC investigate further).

b) most individuals wouldnt likely know where to start - in theory all 67m people in the UK should check the duty on every single item they have purchased directly from outside the EU (for the last 48 years...), unless that's been dealt with through an import agent. And even then, you're relying on the import agent to check the duty amount is correct (which they are unlikely to spend time on, mostly they just deal with the paperwork).

I, personally, have no issues with the concept of paying more for goods in the context of paying the correct duty.

However, HMRC has very little chance of getting a company in, say, China, to pay extra duty, unless they just blanket hold all their goods at the border until it's been paid?

Last point, i agree with your comment that if the UK does raise more duty this way, bearing in mind every government is desperate to fill the giant hole in the public finances caused by "you know what" , it wouldnt be a surprise if the EU and others did the same at a later date.

As said at the start, this comment is only referencing the specific point on duty.
 
However, HMRC has very little chance of getting a company in, say, China, to pay extra duty, unless they just blanket hold all their goods at the border until it's been paid?

Is that not the whole point of the sovereignty argument? That they now can?
 
I'll not comment on other parts of the post but let's be honest. The importer of record (business or consumer) only paid extra duty on "undervalued" imports if they got "caught" (i.e. HMRC checked it at the border and charged the correct duty to release the item). How many posts have you seen on forums where people express surprise at having to pay extra duty? How many times does that not happen in comparison?

The problems with relying on the end user to effectively "check" the duty paid, is it simply does not work and duty is massively underpaid and always has been.

a) businesses won't pay extra unless they have to (keeps their costs down). I've personally dealt with businesses that bought in bulk from China and had a pretty good idea that the duty was probably underpaid due to goods being undervalued. Their only concern was making sure the paperwork tied up (if it doesnt, HMRC investigate further).

b) most individuals wouldnt likely know where to start - in theory all 67m people in the UK should check the duty on every single item they have purchased directly from outside the EU (for the last 48 years...), unless that's been dealt with through an import agent. And even then, you're relying on the import agent to check the duty amount is correct (which they are unlikely to spend time on, mostly they just deal with the paperwork).

I, personally, have no issues with the concept of paying more for goods in the context of paying the correct duty.

However, HMRC has very little chance of getting a company in, say, China, to pay extra duty, unless they just blanket hold all their goods at the border until it's been paid?

Last point, i agree with your comment that if the UK does raise more duty this way, bearing in mind every government is desperate to fill the giant hole in the public finances caused by "you know what" , it wouldnt be a surprise if the EU and others did the same at a later date.

As said at the start, this comment is only referencing the specific point on duty.

Indeed, good points. I didn't intend my post to be passing verdict on the change, rather noting the different considerations, and I didn't mean to sound quite as begrudging as "I suppose I ought to be glad that a loophole is being plugged" comes across after reading it again!

I haven't checked the rules for consignments over £135 value yet, where duty applies. Under that, it's just VAT we're talking about. So +20% from VAT, but at least -6% (£8 on £135) from not paying the "customs handling fee". (Above that, VAT is usually a much larger amount than duty for most goods).

Re b), yes, the situation where the consumer was the importer and responsible for the correctness of customs paperwork they had no part in completing was obviously not fit for today's world.

Rightly the money is owed, and payment has been commonly evaded. However, since that was the status quo it does represent a tax grab, and there's no quid pro quo here - with the removal of the LVCR (low value consignment relief, for <£15), quite the opposite! From a selfish consumer PoV I'd have liked to see that raised - for example I think USA and Aus both have thresholds around $200.

I can appreciate a secondary goal of keeping people's spending inside the UK. But there is a concern that UK retailers might try to take advantage by raising prices (which would be self-defeating, since this change will probably make it easier for us to order from abroad in the end, more predictable at least, once sellers have updated their systems).

Personally, most things I've 'imported' have been either things I couldn't find in the UK or things where the markup here was so crazy that paying the VAT etc would have still been worth it! From the USA generally things have had correct values marked and I've paid the due amounts (admittedly, did a lot more of that when we got two bucks for each quid!). From China, well... ahem, but still, it has to be a lot cheaper to make the weeks of waiting and lack of consumer protection worth it, or of relatively low value anyway.


Is that not the whole point of the sovereignty argument? That they now can?

For direct shipments UK always did have that option, AFAIK. What may have prevented it before now is the intermediate methods used, either shipping from EU warehouses (if they actually exist!) or bulk consignments shipped into the EU then split to individual shipments for UK consumers. No doubt plenty of evasion of taxes on that route; prices generally weren't much more than buying direct from China.
 
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I shan't clutter the Big Covid Thread with this nonsense... but as I first loaded the BBC News site I thought the NHS had finally had enough.

boris.PNG
 
I suspect the pictures editor thought the same thing at first glance and that that was his/her intent. :lol:
 
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I know very little about the fishing industry except that hot, battered cod will warm you through even in Bridlington in November. My assumption was that the foreign-held fishing quotas (sold off in the 90s during another of the industry's many crises) would automatically return to the UK.

They won't. The more I look at what UK fishing fleets wanted from Brexit compared to what they got the greater my impression that they're now in a much worse position. If everybody just liked to eat the stuff that swam within their maritime borders it would be great, but we don't. Would I be right in thinking that a lot of us don't really know where it comes from at any given time of year, perhaps with the exception of cod?
 
I know very little about the fishing industry except that hot, battered cod will warm you through even in Bridlington in November. My assumption was that the foreign-held fishing quotas (sold off in the 90s during another of the industry's many crises) would automatically return to the UK.

They won't. The more I look at what UK fishing fleets wanted from Brexit compared to what they got the greater my impression that they're now in a much worse position. If everybody just liked to eat the stuff that swam within their maritime borders it would be great, but we don't. Would I be right in thinking that a lot of us don't really know where it comes from at any given time of year, perhaps with the exception of cod?
Cod. Yes. Some chippies will even tell the name and registration of the boat that caught it. The only other fish I eat is Tuna. I'm guessing that's not caught off the coast of Brid.
 
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Y' can tek ar' ham butties, but ye'll never tek ar' freedumb!

In other news, did HMRC all go home? Why have they spent every day of every week e-mailing me telling me to be ready for Brexit, when they themselves seem to be incapable of dealing with enquiries and issues in a timely fashion?
 
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LOL, this is like a call back to the seventies/early eighties, I was young then but I do remember my family stopping the car for a snack before crossing the border into Spain, or back into Portugal. Pesky police(s) didn't allow any food or beverage across the border and we all suspected they feasted on whatever they got from the unknowing/naive travellers that tried to get some wine, cheese and bread accross the borders!
 
Interesting comments from fishing minister... she was too busy organising a nativity trail to read the, the, er, the what was it?

Unsurprisingly she is heartily backed by the same Prime Minister who oversees £60 fines for walking near one's home while equally heartily backing a SPAD who drives his family to Barnard Castle, with Covid symptoms, to "test his eyesight".

Muh control.
 
I think that, whatever your political leanings, this only further demonstrates that Irish unity is in the best interest of Northern Ireland. Ignorning political whatever, it just seems logical that as a basic principle, a continuous market with the entirety of your geographical island makes more principal sense than it does with the island next door. And that's before you consider any practical considerations of having the same postcodes, the same currency, the same telephone area codes, same legal system and so on.

I genuinely think that even if the United Kingdom went full federal, that still would not be as economically beneficial to Northern Ireland as a unified Irish market, if not a unified Irish state.

For me, the lack of "frictionless" trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is a bit of a non-issue. At most, it's political deflection.
 
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For me, the lack of "frictionless" trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is a bit of a non-issue. At most, it's political deflection.

The difficulty is that it's at the core of Unionist doctrine, so much hay will be being made by the DUP. For Sinn Fein it's proof of what they've always said. Or shouted. Frictiony borders anywhere around Northern Ireland are political trouble from one side or the other.

I genuinely think that even if the United Kingdom went full federal, that still would not be as economically beneficial to Northern Ireland as a unified Irish market, if not a unified Irish state.

Scotland has entered the chat. I could really see a joint breakaway by the Remain countries. Poor Wales.
 
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