Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum


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Liquid

Fission Mailed
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Once again.

easiest_deal_history.dll
no_downside_consid.txt
sunny_uplands.exe


The problem is that no matter what the genuine downsides to Brexit are or have been, Covid will be used in perpetuity to brush off, downplay or outright misblame all of it.
 
559
England
Best thing the UK has done is leave the EU. Sit down and have a good read of the Lisbon Treaty it is an eye opener for sure.
Did you know under EU law the EU has a right if it wants to order a members troops to take part in a war which that member country has no part in? So if France had a dingdong with say Iran the EU can order other members troopes to assist! It states a member state will make it's complete force and arsenal available to the EU in times of a member country becoming involved in conflict! How is that right? Also when member countries hold nuclear weapons does that mean they have to make nuclear weapons available? it is part of the arsenal, I never got to the bottom of that as we have to think about NATO and it all gets very confusing.

The EU had good points but for me far to many bad points hence I voted leave. Not just the EU the ECJ needed ridding of too.
I spent a long time reading up and doing research on the EU, My findings are best decscribed like this, If the UK hadn't of left the EU it would not being to many years away before the UK became like a branch of PC World and the EU is headoffice Boris is the branch manager but all the say so and rules and regulations come from above the EU, if Boris or you and I like them or not is beside the point we the public don't get a say on it, We can vote whom ever in to Downing street but if that person is under the rule of the EU whom you don't have the chance to vote in whom you want then it renders your vote in your country as next to nothing.
The EU was threatening the soverignty
I was alive when we voted to join the common market another lie fed to us as just trade no mention of political rulings taking place.
Then we had the tv and the newspapers feeding us it was all a trade deal only back in the mid 70s, people were believing what they were told and we had no social media or internet it was BBC ITV and the odd newspaper.
Ted Heath was paid (very well documented) to get the UK to stay in the UK hence we were all conned. He got a boat with his payment.
Thing is the EU is a good idea in theory but the political differences will never allow it to work.

The EU showed their true colours when Leave won the vote, they tried every dirty trick and more in the book to get the decision reversed or to get another vote! How can a democracy work if when you have a vote and you don't get the answer you like you just say Oh Ok we will have another vote and then maybe another until we get what we want.....ludicrous, It would have been the death of democracy in this country.

The EU is a board of money men, Who voted on who sits on the board of the EU? I was never asked were you? were the people of the countries who are members even considered on who they want in charge?

There is many silly laws which have been bought in to the UK by the EU which caused more harm for the UK again proving one rule doesn't suit all. One such daft rule was the forestry regulation which doesn't ban dredging of rivers but does if their is wildlife within a certain distance from the area, hence many rivers which were 15 feet deep are now 8 feet deep due to the undredged silt causing much water to leave at the rivers banks, this was not the course of flooding in many areas but it certainly didn't help. Yet the EU allows building work to be carried out on greenland regadless of what wildlife it effects apart from bats and a few newts maybe a few more, totally hypocritical theory.

1972 the UK Parliament passed the European Communities Act. It gave direct effect to EU law and meant that if there was a conflict between an act of the British Parliament and EU law, Parliament lost out and EU law prevailed. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) became a kind of Supreme Court of Europe, interpreting EU law with judgements that were binding on all member states.

Leaving the EU was always going to be a long awkward affair and anyone who thought it would be easy are very mistaken, Same as those who think leaving the EU is going to happen without certain problems arising and all will be good overnight are very mistaken, we have had 50 years of the EU and to divorce them and start afresh is a big step which will take time patients and sometimes hairpulling at the roots but in the end I am very confident it will remain a very correct decision.

Someone said above covid will be blamed for brexit mishaps, well it works both ways Yes there will be mishaps because of Brexit no one said there wouldn't be these things were well known before the divorce, Covid has had a huge economic effect on the country and is the problem we have shortages today in many departments.
Known fact many lorry drivers from abroad left the UK when covid and the talk of lockdowns happened, many thinking I could be stuck in the UK away from family for possibly a year or more and many didn't return, Yes after Brexit it is a bit more tricky to return but that isn't the reason they didn't come back.
Many got jobs in Germany and other EU countries as it is easier for them than the UK some part of Brexit that way yes it is but much is the fear of lockdowns in different countries and being stuck on an island which has been very hard hit by covid like the UK, Covid stopped in it's tracks the thousands of HGV tests from taking place and Covid stopped lessons in HGV driving hence we have a shortage of drivers, It is not a case of one or the other Brexit or Covid.
If the tests had taken place which didn't under lockdown we would still have a small shortage of drivers but nothing like the chaos Covid and lockdowns have left us with.
 

Liquid

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Of all the things to pick up on in that post, this one stands out:

Yes there will be mishaps because of Brexit no one said there wouldn't be, [these mishaps] were well known before
David Davis, Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, literally said:

"There is no considerable downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside."

Argue the semantics of 'considerable' downside all you want, what we have seen are downsides and prominent Leavers did say that they wouldn't happen.

Michael Gove said:

"The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards."

This quite simply is not true no matter how you look at it. There is no way this was said in good faith.

Liam Fox said:

"The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history."

The United Kingdom is renaging on its own deal and has made itself a laughing stock with a new-found reputation for breaking its own word on deals it agreed to.

And this without including how the 'newspapers' (agenda pushers) have slanted their media bias. You only need two clicks to find a multitude of How It Started / How It's Going posts featuring side-by-side calamaties.

Brexit has happened. I get it.
People either supported it or didn't, and won't change their minds. I get it.
It's happened.

I. Get. It.

But the gaslighting from leavers (politicians, press and public alike) is absolutely staggering and should be used as a stick to be beaten with. Changing the narrative to modify the unravelling of the obvious scam is really out of order. With the current tail-chasing story being no turkeys for Christmas, the narrative is going so far in some quarters to go from the already mentionted "there will only be a considerable upside" to suggesting that the negatives of Brexit that have subsequently happened (and clearly were going to) are somehow necessary, like a "the night is darkest before the dawn" fallacy.
 
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eran0004

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eran0004
Did you know under EU law the EU has a right if it wants to order a members troops to take part in a war which that member country has no part in?
That’s not correct. There is a mutual defence clause which states that EU members must come to the aid of other member countries if they are victims of an armed aggression on their territory. It’s pretty similar to the collective defence article of NATO, of which the UK is still a member, so leaving the EU didn’t really change anything on that front.
 

Scaff

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Best thing the UK has done is leave the EU. Sit down and have a good read of the Lisbon Treaty it is an eye opener for sure.
Did you know under EU law the EU has a right if it wants to order a members troops to take part in a war which that member country has no part in? So if France had a dingdong with say Iran the EU can order other members troopes to assist! It states a member state will make it's complete force and arsenal available to the EU in times of a member country becoming involved in conflict! How is that right? Also when member countries hold nuclear weapons does that mean they have to make nuclear weapons available? it is part of the arsenal, I never got to the bottom of that as we have to think about NATO and it all gets very confusing.

The EU had good points but for me far to many bad points hence I voted leave. Not just the EU the ECJ needed ridding of too.
I spent a long time reading up and doing research on the EU, My findings are best decscribed like this, If the UK hadn't of left the EU it would not being to many years away before the UK became like a branch of PC World and the EU is headoffice Boris is the branch manager but all the say so and rules and regulations come from above the EU, if Boris or you and I like them or not is beside the point we the public don't get a say on it, We can vote whom ever in to Downing street but if that person is under the rule of the EU whom you don't have the chance to vote in whom you want then it renders your vote in your country as next to nothing.
The EU was threatening the soverignty
I was alive when we voted to join the common market another lie fed to us as just trade no mention of political rulings taking place.
Then we had the tv and the newspapers feeding us it was all a trade deal only back in the mid 70s, people were believing what they were told and we had no social media or internet it was BBC ITV and the odd newspaper.
Ted Heath was paid (very well documented) to get the UK to stay in the UK hence we were all conned. He got a boat with his payment.
Thing is the EU is a good idea in theory but the political differences will never allow it to work.

The EU showed their true colours when Leave won the vote, they tried every dirty trick and more in the book to get the decision reversed or to get another vote! How can a democracy work if when you have a vote and you don't get the answer you like you just say Oh Ok we will have another vote and then maybe another until we get what we want.....ludicrous, It would have been the death of democracy in this country.

The EU is a board of money men, Who voted on who sits on the board of the EU? I was never asked were you? were the people of the countries who are members even considered on who they want in charge?

There is many silly laws which have been bought in to the UK by the EU which caused more harm for the UK again proving one rule doesn't suit all. One such daft rule was the forestry regulation which doesn't ban dredging of rivers but does if their is wildlife within a certain distance from the area, hence many rivers which were 15 feet deep are now 8 feet deep due to the undredged silt causing much water to leave at the rivers banks, this was not the course of flooding in many areas but it certainly didn't help. Yet the EU allows building work to be carried out on greenland regadless of what wildlife it effects apart from bats and a few newts maybe a few more, totally hypocritical theory.

1972 the UK Parliament passed the European Communities Act. It gave direct effect to EU law and meant that if there was a conflict between an act of the British Parliament and EU law, Parliament lost out and EU law prevailed. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) became a kind of Supreme Court of Europe, interpreting EU law with judgements that were binding on all member states.

Leaving the EU was always going to be a long awkward affair and anyone who thought it would be easy are very mistaken, Same as those who think leaving the EU is going to happen without certain problems arising and all will be good overnight are very mistaken, we have had 50 years of the EU and to divorce them and start afresh is a big step which will take time patients and sometimes hairpulling at the roots but in the end I am very confident it will remain a very correct decision.

Someone said above covid will be blamed for brexit mishaps, well it works both ways Yes there will be mishaps because of Brexit no one said there wouldn't be these things were well known before the divorce, Covid has had a huge economic effect on the country and is the problem we have shortages today in many departments.
Known fact many lorry drivers from abroad left the UK when covid and the talk of lockdowns happened, many thinking I could be stuck in the UK away from family for possibly a year or more and many didn't return, Yes after Brexit it is a bit more tricky to return but that isn't the reason they didn't come back.
Many got jobs in Germany and other EU countries as it is easier for them than the UK some part of Brexit that way yes it is but much is the fear of lockdowns in different countries and being stuck on an island which has been very hard hit by covid like the UK, Covid stopped in it's tracks the thousands of HGV tests from taking place and Covid stopped lessons in HGV driving hence we have a shortage of drivers, It is not a case of one or the other Brexit or Covid.
If the tests had taken place which didn't under lockdown we would still have a small shortage of drivers but nothing like the chaos Covid and lockdowns have left us with.
Well that just a wall of text full of utter and complete nonsense.

When you lie about the very first point you try and make it really doesn't do a lot for your credibility.

Odd that you actually mention NATO, but forget that the UK and France have a mutual defence agreement due to that (and not because of the EU).


I've actually read the Lisbon Treaty, you quite clearly haven't.

That’s not correct. There is a mutual defence clause which states that EU members must come to the aid of other member countries if they are victims of an armed aggression on their territory. It’s pretty similar to the collective defence article of NATO, of which the UK is still a member, so leaving the EU didn’t really change anything on that front.
And omits the important fact that it is still subject to a veto and NATO has an override on it, as per my linked article.
 
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MatskiMonk

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it renders your vote in your country as next to nothing

The first past the post system does that too.

if Boris or you and I like them or not is beside the point we the public don't get a say on it
The House of Lords does this too. Parliament consists of 1438 seats at the moment, 650 are elected by the people, the rest, we don't get to choose. Boris has significantly increased this number of unelected people.

whom you don't have the chance to vote in whom you want

Really, we can't do that either. You actually vote for your constituency's MP, not for the Prime minister (though the PM can then kick the MP you voted for out of his party).

Who voted on who sits on the board of the EU? I was never asked were you? were the people of the countries who are members even considered on who they want in charge
How many of the Lords Spiritual in Parliament did you have a vote on? And out of curiosity, how many times have you voted for an MEP? Do you remember the vote for our current commander-in-chief? Do you remember the vote for our current head of state (the head of state who are elected MP's swear allegiance to)?

How can a democracy work if when you have a vote and you don't get the answer you like you just say Oh Ok we will have another vote and then maybe another until we get what we want.....ludicrous, It would have been the death of democracy in this country.
I get the impression you don't quite understand how our democracy works, or really what the referendum was for. If you think you don't like the EU then that's fine but I think you should read up on how our system in the UK works, and apply the same standards you expect from the EU to it, and then see if you think we're really any better off.
 
559
England
Well that just a wall of text full of utter and complete nonsense.

When you lie about the very first point you try and make it really doesn't do a lot for your credibility.

Odd that you actually mention NATO, but forget that the UK and France have a mutual defence agreement due to that (and not because of the EU).


I've actually read the Lisbon Treaty, you quite clearly haven't.


And omits the important fact that it is still subject to a veto and NATO has an override on it, as per my linked article

I haven't forgot anything, I have read the Lisbon Treaty and it took a good while to absorb it all and to negotiate meaning.
So please don't insult me by claiming I haven't read it.
I believe what I do and I know what I know it is there in black and white for all to see if they can be bothered to look and not believe what they see on social media or what the pub bible says. Up to you.

I see no one wants to listen ok thats fine I am not worried. I decided on the EU a long time ago and so far 99.9% of what I thought and expected has been proven correct. My own view is the EU is basically a dictatorship.
Well we are out the EU so time will tell that we made the correct decision.
 

Scaff

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I haven't forgot anything, I have read the Lisbon Treaty and it took a good while to absorb it all and to negotiate meaning.
So please don't insult me by claiming I haven't read it.
Then I can only conclude you are deliberately lying then, as it doesn't contain a mutual aggression pact as you claimed.

I believe what I do and I know what I know it is there in black and white for all to see if they can be bothered to look and not believe what they see on social media or what the pub bible says. Up to you.
Belief and fact are quite different, you claimed a fact, so please cite exactly where in the treaty it details forced mutual aggression.

Which when you do will show that its about mutual defence (which you ignored), which it doesn't override country neutrality (which you ignored), doesn't override NATO commitments (which you ignored) and simply strengthened an existing UN article(which you ignored).

So, no it would not force all members to get involved if France got into a conflict with Iran. Well unless Iran invaded France and then NATOs mutual defence pact would still take precident. However given how unlikely Iran invading France following the break up of NATO us you are simply making an argument to the absurd.


I see no one wants to listen ok thats fine I am not worried. I decided on the EU a long time ago and so far 99.9% of what I thought and expected has been proven correct. My own view is the EU is basically a dictatorship.
Well we are out the EU so time will tell that we made the correct decision.
It's a long way from a dictatorship and is objectively more Democratic than the UKs system of government
 
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MatskiMonk

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My own view is the EU is basically a dictatorship.

I see you don't want to listen to, or answer comments I made. That's fine. You can believe the EU is a dictatorship and we are a democracy...

... though, that does worry me.... because it means our democracy is getting weaker through misunderstanding and misinformation. You seem like the kind of person that thinks democracy is served when you get what you want.
 

Touring Mars

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People who cite the supposed 'positives' of Brexit remind me of a work colleague of mine many years ago who was a problem gambler.

I saw him in the pub one night feeding a fruit machine and occasionally winning some cash. I went over and asked him how much he had won, and he said "I've won about £60 so far". Impressed, I said that the drinks were on him, and he grumpily replied "I don't think so, I'm down about £40".

Some people have an odd way of using facts, like the fact that this guy had won £60 (which he had), but upon further investigation it was evident that he had also spent £100. That's not lying or dishonesty, but it is being economical with the truth to the point of creating a distinctly false impression.

The Brexit Bus was exactly this. Yes, we do 'save' £350 million a week from not paying that to the EU any more. Yes, we did invest more in the NHS, etc. etc. etc. But what Brexiteers won't face up to is the losses that mean that even in spite of these "wins", we're now quite a lot worse off than we were before, and it is only going to get worse - probably a lot worse. And as for taking back control of our borders... :rolleyes:
 
559
England
The first past the post system does that too.


The House of Lords does this too. Parliament consists of 1438 seats at the moment, 650 are elected by the people, the rest, we don't get to choose. Boris has significantly increased this number of unelected people.



Really, we can't do that either. You actually vote for your constituency's MP, not for the Prime minister (though the PM can then kick the MP you voted for out of his party).


How many of the Lords Spiritual in Parliament did you have a vote on? And out of curiosity, how many times have you voted for an MEP? Do you remember the vote for our current commander-in-chief? Do you remember the vote for our current head of state (the head of state who are elected MP's swear allegiance to)?


I get the impression you don't quite understand how our democracy works, or really what the referendum was for. If you think you don't like the EU then that's fine but I think you should read up on how our system in the UK works, and apply the same standards you expect from the EU to it, and then see if you think we're really any better off.


I see I am amongst a base of remainers No worries I am not going to bang heads with everyone as it is pointless as the EU as I said has it's good points and bad points so by just pointing out but this but that is pointless it could go on forever.
End of day we are out not out as clean as I wanted it but hey ho you can't have everything you wish for.
I have my beliefs they have been tested since the whole Brexit saga began so far not much has changed for me so I am happy with how I voted and how it is progressing although covid has put a huge dent in everything we just now know it will take a little while longer, No worries.
 

Scaff

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I see I am amongst a base of remainers No worries I am not going to bang heads with everyone as it is pointless as the EU as I said has it's good points and bad points so by just pointing out but this but that is pointless it could go on forever.
End of day we are out not out as clean as I wanted it but hey ho you can't have everything you wish for.
I have my beliefs they have been tested since the whole Brexit saga began so far not much has changed for me so I am happy with how I voted and how it is progressing although covid has put a huge dent in everything we just now know it will take a little while longer, No worries.
Not much may have changed for you, that however is quite different for the country as a whole.

Brexit has across the board been a net negative for the country and the full effects have not even taken effect yet.

At some point its highly likely that some of those negatives will affect you, directly or indirectly.

None of which however gives you a free pass for the blatent miss information you have posted.
 

MatskiMonk

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I see I am amongst a base of remainers No worries I am not going to bang heads with everyone as it is pointless as the EU as I said has it's good points and bad points so by just pointing out but this but that is pointless it could go on forever.

I see you avoid answering questions about your understanding of the UK's democracy. If you can't explain why you're okay with the House of Lords, but not okay with the EC, then I'm sure you'll forgive us for thinking that's because you don't understand it all.*



* and that's actually a totally fine admission to make, because it is all somewhat complicated... though that would undermine your stance, so I don't expect you to do it.
 
559
England
wow forget I said anything, I am all for an open discussion but I feel like all I am getting is attacked.
Agree or disagree no worries, but calm down there is no need for the aggression.
I will leave it here goodbye.
 

MatskiMonk

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I am all for an open discussion but I feel like all I am getting is attacked.
Boo-****ing-hoo. You actively voted to make my personal life, and my work life worse. You also seem to excercise some interesting double standards in your opinions, which also touches on my passion for electoral reform. Since you believe in democracy I'm sure you'll embrace my right to have an opinion on the things you've said... I don't believe I've been aggressive, but I don't see any replies from you addressing the points I've made, so I'm calling your exit from this thread cowardice.
 

Dotini

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A life must be thoroughly miserable, dwelling in the past yet in perpetual hatred of those who made it so. It's sad to see a nation torn apart, bereft of all hope of reconciliation, and no way home.
 

MatskiMonk

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A life must be thoroughly miserable, dwelling in the past yet in perpetual hatred of those who made it so.
Life is thoroughly miserable for many reasons Dotini, can't lump 'em all on Brexiteers.. but don't be pretending it's dwelling on the past... it's an entirely demoralising present, and a future that is no better.
 

Dotini

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Life is thoroughly miserable for many reasons Dotini, can't lump 'em all on Brexiteers.. but don't be pretending it's dwelling on the past... it's an entirely demoralising present, and a future that is no better.
No doubt entirely demoralizing...from your perspective. Another life, lived with meaning and purpose, no matter the difficulties, can be uplifting and invigorating.
 

Scaff

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wow forget I said anything, I am all for an open discussion but I feel like all I am getting is attacked.
Agree or disagree no worries, but calm down there is no need for the aggression.
I will leave it here goodbye.
No one has been aggressive or attacked you, they have disagreed with you.

This is a discussion forum, not your personal blog, as such you should expect discussion.

Lets look at them in detail now:
1. Did you know under EU law the EU has a right if it wants to order a members troops to take part in a war which that member country has no part in? So if France had a dingdong with say Iran the EU can order other members troopes to assist! It states a member state will make it's complete force and arsenal available to the EU in times of a member country becoming involved in conflict! How is that right? Also when member countries hold nuclear weapons does that mean they have to make nuclear weapons available? it is part of the arsenal, I never got to the bottom of that as we have to think about NATO and it all gets very confusing.
No, it doesn't get 'very confusing at all', I've already linked to the article in question, and all it does is reinforce NATO and UN agreements already in place and is a mutual-defense agreement.

My findings are best decscribed like this, If the UK hadn't of left the EU it would not being to many years away before the UK became like a branch of PC World and the EU is headoffice Boris is the branch manager but all the say so and rules and regulations come from above the EU, if Boris or you and I like them or not is beside the point we the public don't get a say on it, We can vote whom ever in to Downing street but if that person is under the rule of the EU whom you don't have the chance to vote in whom you want then it renders your vote in your country as next to nothing.
Completely and utterly untrue, the UK had an opt-outs on four of the six main areas of EU policy and would not have lost its veto. You also have a full chance to participate in who represents you in the EU, which as a body has less non-elected officials than the UK does and they are voted in using forms of PR, which makes the process itself more democratic than the First Past the Post we use in the UK.



The EU was threatening the soverignty
Utterly untrue, the UK never enforced much of the sovereignty it had, that's not the EU's fault but the UK's.

Let's take for example the main point for many on the leave side, the claim of uncontrollable migration within the EU, turns out that it was actually controllable, but the UK simply never bothered to do so. It also forgets that the UK opted-Out of the Schengen area, meaning had we wanted to exercise those controls we would have had the border control sin place to allow us to do so, we, as a country, simply never bothered to do so.


I was alive when we voted to join the common market another lie fed to us as just trade no mention of political rulings taking place.
Simply untrue, the EEC was always an economic and political body and was well established as one before the UK joined.


Then we had the tv and the newspapers feeding us it was all a trade deal only back in the mid 70s,
Untrue
Screenshot 2021-10-12 083457.png


D8FRHM_XUAAePaz



The EU showed their true colours when Leave won the vote, they tried every dirty trick and more in the book to get the decision reversed or to get another vote! How can a democracy work if when you have a vote and you don't get the answer you like you just say Oh Ok we will have another vote and then maybe another until we get what we want.....ludicrous, It would have been the death of democracy in this country.
That's how democracies work and it's utterly hypocritical as Leave proponents had been doing so since the 70's, originally backed a second vote and said that a 52/48 split would be 'un-finished business'.

The EU is a board of money men, Who voted on who sits on the board of the EU? I was never asked were you? were the people of the countries who are members even considered on who they want in charge?
You and I did when we were members of the EU, well unless you failed to vote, which would put you at fault, not the system. This has already been explained to you. I do await you taking issue with Farage and his cronies use and abuse of EU funds while failing to represent the UK's interests in any effective manner?

There is many silly laws which have been bought in to the UK by the EU which caused more harm for the UK again proving one rule doesn't suit all. One such daft rule was the forestry regulation which doesn't ban dredging of rivers but does if their is wildlife within a certain distance from the area, hence many rivers which were 15 feet deep are now 8 feet deep due to the undredged silt causing much water to leave at the rivers banks, this was not the course of flooding in many areas but it certainly didn't help. Yet the EU allows building work to be carried out on greenland regadless of what wildlife it effects apart from bats and a few newts maybe a few more, totally hypocritical theory.
Not true (again), that's said dredging isn't a long-term or effective solution to flooding and simply moves the same problem further down the watercourse. Oh and the UK always retained control of planning and the EU directive directly encourage building away from greenfield locations (but final control is with the member state).

1972 the UK Parliament passed the European Communities Act. It gave direct effect to EU law and meant that if there was a conflict between an act of the British Parliament and EU law, Parliament lost out and EU law prevailed. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) became a kind of Supreme Court of Europe, interpreting EU law with judgements that were binding on all member states.
This utterly and completely ignores the history that followed 1972 and the numerous opt-outs the UK obtained (not to mention the veto rights every member holds), more than any other EU members state has ever had and ones we will not get back should we rejoin.

I spent a long time reading up and doing research on the EU,
Clearly, the only research you have done has been bias confirmation, something that is very transparent given the slew of un-sourced lies and misinformation you have managed to fit into a single post.
 
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MaxAttack

TPC's Resident Mad Bloke
Premium
1,924
United Kingdom
Isle of Wight, UK
A life must be thoroughly miserable, dwelling in the past yet in perpetual hatred of those who made it so. It's sad to see a nation torn apart, bereft of all hope of reconciliation, and no way home.
This is Britain, we have wallowed in abject existential misery since before your nation was a formless dream in the mind of a ludicrously right wing Christian.
 
559
England
No one has been aggressive or attacked you, they have disagreed with you.

This is a discussion forum not your personal blog, as such you should expect discussion.
Cowardice-YOU HAVEN'T READ THE LISBON tREATY BASICALLY CALLING ME A LIAR, Calling what I say lies. Enough is enough no worries it is a thread not th houses of parliment here, I won't lose any sleep if people disagree with me, There is a thing called curtesy and diplomacy in the way things are discussed.

As for whom ever above said me leaving is cowardice, lol many times. How can posting on a site and then realising I am banging my head in a brick wall with remainers who yes are entitled to their own opinions, So I think ok no one wants to go over old news lets leave it is cowardice? I feel sorry for anyone who has such built in aggresion.
 

Scaff

Moderator
26,232
United Kingdom
He/Him
ScaffUK
ScaffGTP
Cowardice-YOU HAVEN'T READ THE LISBON tREATY BASICALLY CALLING ME A LIAR, Calling what I say lies. Enough is enough no worries it is a thread not th houses of parliment here, I won't lose any sleep if people disagree with me, There is a thing called curtesy and diplomacy in the way things are discussed.

As for whom ever above said me leaving is cowardice, lol many times. How can posting on a site and then realising I am banging my head in a brick wall with remainers who yes are entitled to their own opinions, So I think ok no one wants to go over old news lets leave it is cowardice? I feel sorry for anyone who has such built in aggresion.
Now the only person who is acting aggressively is yourself (caps lock - seriously), something that appears to have been triggered by pointing out that you have quite clearly posted misinformation and lies and presented it as fact. That you have, to date, not supported a single one of your claims is a testament to that.

I've documented above in detail those lies and misinformation, and that is exactly what it is, so acting shocked when it is called out is odd. Letting missinformation and lies slide is what got us into the mess that is Brexit in the first place, and as such, I have no interest in letting such nonsense slide at any point.

I will be blunt the very first claim you made after saying you had read the treaty was untrue (and I have provided source and detail showing that to be the case), as such it seems two possibilities exist.
  1. You haven't actually read the Treaty, which would make your claim to have done so a lie
  2. You have read it and are being deliberately misleading about it, which would mean what you posted on defence was a lie
As such it seems to simply be a case of which one of the two you are willing to own?

p78
Fuel shortage perhaps?
Will most likely be hand-waved away as Covid related.

Brexiteers are the Anti-Vaxxers of UK politics
 
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eran0004

Premium
9,691
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
Cowardice-YOU HAVEN'T READ THE LISBON tREATY BASICALLY CALLING ME A LIAR, Calling what I say lies. Enough is enough no worries it is a thread not th houses of parliment here, I won't lose any sleep if people disagree with me, There is a thing called curtesy and diplomacy in the way things are discussed.

As for whom ever above said me leaving is cowardice, lol many times. How can posting on a site and then realising I am banging my head in a brick wall with remainers who yes are entitled to their own opinions, So I think ok no one wants to go over old news lets leave it is cowardice? I feel sorry for anyone who has such built in aggresion.
You're not "banging your head" at all here. If you had spent four or five replies trying to answer the questions that were directed at you I could understand that. But here you are dropping out without even attempting to respond to any of the criticism.
 

MatskiMonk

Inebriated member
Premium
13,525
United Kingdom
Not so Great Britain
As for whom ever above said me leaving is cowardice, lol many times. How can posting on a site and then realising I am banging my head in a brick wall with remainers who yes are entitled to their own opinions, So I think ok no one wants to go over old news lets leave it is cowardice? I feel sorry for anyone who has such built in aggresion.

That was me.

The questions I've asked you are not related to Brexit, they are related to UK democracy. They're also not matters of opinion, they're matters of fact, so hiding behind the ol' "Questioning my opinion is aggression!" isn't really necessary... you either voted for the Queen (y'know the unelected head of state and our armed forces), or you didn't (hint, you didn't). You either voted for the Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal in Parliament, or you didn't (hint, you didn't). You either voted directly for Boris Johnson, or you didn't (you may have done if you live in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency, or had a vote in the Tory party leadership election).

I'm curious as to whether you voted in European elections for the MEP's that represent us in the EU, and I'm curious as to whether you acknowledge there is a votes per seat discrepancy in the House of Commons, or if you're aware just how small a percentage of the population is actually represented in parliament by our current electoral system. I'm also curious as to what constituency you do live in - though I understand if you don't want to give that kind of information out.

These questions don't need opinions as answers, just the facts.

My motivation for asking is not out of aggression, just to try and gain an understanding as to why you think the EU is dictatorship, but the UK a democracy.
 
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UKMikey

On your left
Premium
9,118
United Kingdom
West Drayton
UKMikeyA
UKMikeyA
You either voted directly for Boris Johnson, or you didn't (you may have done if you live in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituency, or had a vote in the Tory party leadership election).
I used to but the government gerrymandered my ward out of the constituency and into the neighbouring Hayes one, presumably because the average income here isn't high enough to reliably vote Tory.

I didn't vote for them to do that, either. "Democracy" in action.
 
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