Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum

Results are only viewable after voting.
PzR Slim
I agree, however, what political parties need to understand is that being very appealing to party members is all a bit of a waste of time. You've got their vote no matter what. It's people like me you have to appeal to. I don't have any affinity with any particular party. I've voted for all major political parties at points in my voting life. I vote for which party and which manifesto I think is best for the country at any given time. And that changes depending on the situation the world and country is in. Corbyn does absolutely nothing for me and I'm sure plenty of other floating voters like me feel exactly the same. And it's the floating voters that make the difference and it's those voters that political parties need to go after.

I want to see an effective opposition as that's the only way to hold the government to account. With Corbyn at the helm I don't see Labour being effective and think the Tories will walk the next GE. And if Johnson is at the helm and the Tories walk the next GE I worry very much what that will mean for our country.
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I just don't like the idea of a party changing just for the reason of pleasing the general public or to exist to be strong opposition. What is the point? We may as well not have any parties in the UK, no politics. Just a computer we tell what we want and it does it for us if there is a majority.
If we have a party who has a certain method the membership supports, but with the general public perhaps ambivalent, what should happen is the public don't vote for that party, they vote for another party or an independent. It annoys me when a party gives in to the public and abandons it's own ideals.
It's lazy and weak of both the party and the public. Membership and leader should form what the party is all about, the public should have no say whatsoever. It should be either vote or don't vote.
This way I think we would get more choice, more variety of parties in the UK. It's doesn't matter if there is not a majority government in parliament, I think that is an outdated ambition.
 
haitch40
Opinions?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/politics-brexit-unlawful-eu-uk?CMP=fb_gu
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It's all such a mess. I don't think anyone seriously believe that we would vote leave and hence not enough thought was put into a leave result. And we end up with the current turmoil. This whole matter has a hell of a long way to run yet and I think any eventuality you can think of is still possible.

Fgame
I just don't like the idea of a party changing just for the reason of pleasing the general public or to exist to be strong opposition. What is the point? We may as well not have any parties in the UK, no politics. Just a computer we tell what we want and it does it for us if there is a majority.
If we have a party who has a certain method the membership supports, but with the general public perhaps ambivalent, what should happen is the public don't vote for that party, they vote for another party or an independent. It annoys me when a party gives in to the public and abandons it's own ideals.
It's lazy and weak of both the party and the public. Membership and leader should form what the party is all about, the public should have no say whatsoever. It should be either vote or don't vote.
This way I think we would get more choice, more variety of parties in the UK. It's doesn't matter if there is not a majority government in parliament, I think that is an outdated ambition.
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I'm not suggesting parties should change their core beliefs based on what the public wants. I'm saying that political parties need to choose their leaders and candidates based on their ability to sell their parties beliefs to the general public.

The only way to get any power is to get elected and the only way to get any real power is to get enough candidates elected to form a government. To do that you have to appeal to a much broader group that just your core supporters. That was my point.
 
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PzR Slim
It's all such a mess. I don't think anyone seriously believe that we would vote leave and hence not enough thought was put into a leave result. And we end up with the current turmoil. This whole matter has a hell of a long way to run yet and I think any eventuality you can think of is still possible.
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It would certainly seem that the rest of the EU was far, far better prepared for 'Leave' winning the referendum than the 'Leave' campaign itself or the current government was. It puts the country at a massive disadvantage in any negotiations if one side (the remainder of the EU) agrees its stance before the UK can even get around to deciding who will submit Article 50!


PzR Slim
I'm not suggesting parties should change their core beliefs based on what the public wants. I'm saying that political parties need to choose their leaders and candidates based on their ability to sell their parties beliefs to the general public.

The only way to get any power is to get elected and the only way to get any real power is to get enough candidates elected to form a government. To do that you have to appeal to a much broader group that just your core supporters. That was my point.
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While I agree with what you are saying in principle, I would disagree that as a party they are not selling the beliefs to the general public (with the caveat that no party will ever appeal to everyone), now while increases in membership numbers and supporter numbers is not a direct link to a wider appeal it could indicate that as a party they are doing something right in that regard (certainly in comparison to recent past with New Labour).

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...w-jeremy-corbyn-has-reshaped-the-labour-party
 
Scaff
It would certainly seem that the rest of the EU was far, far better prepared for 'Leave' winning the referendum than the 'Leave' campaign itself or the current government was. It puts the country at a massive disadvantage in any negotiations if one side (the remainder of the EU) agrees its stance before the UK can even get around to deciding who will submit Article 50!
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Fully agree.

Scaff
While I agree with what you are saying in principle, I would disagree that as a party they are not selling the beliefs to the general public (with the caveat that no party will ever appeal to everyone), now while increases in membership numbers and supporter numbers is not a direct link to a wider appeal it could indicate that as a party they are doing something right in that regard (certainly in comparison to recent past with New Labour).

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...w-jeremy-corbyn-has-reshaped-the-labour-party
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Good points. However, it's difficult to know how many of those new people joining always have and always will vote Labour. Is it that the new direction Corbyn has taken just instilled a greater sense of belonging to current Labour voters meaning they go out and join the party or are they none labour voters who have been swayed by his leadership? Impossible to answer and although the figures do look big, in the grand scheme of things they are not huge. A bit like the 10,000 new members the Lib Dems have acquired in the 5 days since the referendum, looks like a big headline figure but in reality it's not a big deal.

Rightly or wrongly it's the undecided amongst us who make the difference come GE day. And my point was that political parties need to appeal to these people to get elected.
 
Scaff
It would certainly seem that the rest of the EU was far, far better prepared for 'Leave' winning the referendum than the 'Leave' campaign itself or the current government was. It puts the country at a massive disadvantage in any negotiations if one side (the remainder of the EU) agrees its stance before the UK can even get around to deciding who will submit Article 50!
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I don,t know about them/EU at being better prepared. Don,t think any of Europe or the world were truly ready.
I think it comes down to one thing: "EU says" "Hey UK accept the four rules of movement or sod off to a single market trading thingy we have. :)" lol tried to make it a little jokingly as not to upset any leave/remain voters. :)

Thats how it appears its just a question of see what can be struck from when the article 50 is put forward and negations start on the leave procedure?
Also has not a team been put in place to help the new PM while all the debacle of the leadership of both parties go,s on.
 
christara321
I don,t know about them/EU at being better prepared. Don,t think any of Europe or the world were truly ready.
I think it comes down to one thing: "EU says" "Hey UK accept the four rules of movement or sod off to a single market trading thingy we have. :)" lol tried to make it a little jokingly as not to upset any leave/remain voters. :)

Thats how it appears its just a question of see what can be struck from when the article 50 is put forward and negations start on the leave procedure?
Also has not a team been put in place to help the new PM while all the debacle of the leadership of both parties go,s on.
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The other 27 nations of the EU are already in agreement over the core negotiating position, that's a difficult thing to get done, as such it almost certainly is the result of planning.

PzR Slim
Good points. However, it's difficult to know how many of those new people joining always have and always will vote Labour. Is it that the new direction Corbyn has taken just instilled a greater sense of belonging to current Labour voters meaning they go out and join the party or are they none labour voters who have been swayed by his leadership? Impossible to answer and although the figures do look big, in the grand scheme of things they are not huge. A bit like the 10,000 new members the Lib Dems have acquired in the 5 days since the referendum, looks like a big headline figure but in reality it's not a big deal.

Rightly or wrongly it's the undecided amongst us who make the difference come GE day. And my point was that political parties need to appeal to these people to get elected.
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I quite agree that its impossible to know, but I would say its a better position to be in when compared to the hemorrhage of support following Blair and Brown.
 
Touring Mars
Boris Johnson will not stand for PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120

Perhaps that guy who said Cameron had checkmated Boris Johnson by passing the buck on triggering Article 50 was right...
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Wow, we went through ALL this and he drops out :lol:

He probably doesn't feel like he can handle the country in it's current state leading more credibility to the angle that he hoped that we voted to stay but fatally wounded Cameron so he could move in and be PM in an easier situation.

Basically he want's someone else to handle the storm, pretty insulting really seeing as he in essence made all this happen.
 
Scaff
The other 27 nations of the EU are already in agreement over the core negotiating position, that's a difficult thing to get done, as such it almost certainly is the result of planning.
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Yes they may have some sort of planning but all media leads you to belief has a Joe public that its the EU says accept this or sod Brits to the single market trading?
Trying to keep it simple, :D
 
Robin.
He probably doesn't feel like he can handle the country in it's current state leading more credibility to the angle that he hoped that we voted to stay but fatally wounded Cameron so he could move in and be PM in an easier situation.
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It's beginning to look a lot like it.

Either way, BJ's political career has taken a massive blow.
 
Robin.
Wow, we went through ALL this and he drops out :lol:

He probably doesn't feel like he can handle the country in it's current state leading more credibility to the angle that he hoped that we voted to stay but fatally wounded Cameron so he could move in and be PM in an easier situation.

Basically he want's someone else to handle the storm, pretty insulting really seeing as he in essence made all this happen.
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I think its more Gove standing and saying that BOJO couldn,t handle it that he stood down, But hey I could be wrong. lol You know the media and such like?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36671336
 
Touring Mars
It's beginning to look a lot like it.

Either way, BJ's political career has taken a massive blow.
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He might be playing the long game, get a place in the cabinet, maybe work up to deputy PM and eventually take the top job years down the line when everything with the country has been sorted. I think Theresa May has very likely got this in the bag.

christara321
I think its more Gove standing and saying that BOJO couldn,t handle it that he stood down, But hey I could be wrong. lol You know the media and such like?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36671336
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Boris is not that easily deterred with anything, if he really had the political ambition he wouldn't let one person questioning his competence stop him from running. People have been critical of him for years including in being mayor and he still ran twice.
 
PzR Slim
Good points. However, it's difficult to know how many of those new people joining always have and always will vote Labour.

Rightly or wrongly it's the undecided amongst us who make the difference come GE day. And my point was that political parties need to appeal to these people to get elected.
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I think you're right to say it's hard to gauge in specific numbers the impact of Corbyn, it's not much to go on, but from experience of family, neighbours, people in local community etc (I'm in Surrey); Corbyn is seen as reinstalling some Labour values back into Labour and subsequetly some 'confidence' into the Labour party actually representing what it originally stood for.

I think he also did a god job of getting the 'attention' of people who are disillusioned with with the elitist, arrogant and ambiguous way of speaking that is so rife in politics.

I think he was a ray of light for Labour and many floating voters, what happening to him now is just crazy, they're (Labour Party) are shooting themselves in the foot big time.

Touring Mars
It's beginning to look a lot like it.

Either way, BJ's political career has taken a massive blow.
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LOL - he should move to Labour, at least they can't berate him for not having passion about his campaign!

:D
 
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Tired Tyres
Sad. Epic entertainment possibilities gone, just like that. :ouch:
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Yeah I was looking forward to seeing his antics including on foreign trips where there would have been comedy moments aplenty! :lol:

Mayor-of-London-Boris-Johnson.jpg

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Mayor-of-London-Boris-Joh-009.jpg

Boris-Johnson.jpg
 
Robin.
Wow, we went through ALL this and he drops out :lol:

He probably doesn't feel like he can handle the country in it's current state leading more credibility to the angle that he hoped that we voted to stay but fatally wounded Cameron so he could move in and be PM in an easier situation.

Basically he want's someone else to handle the storm, pretty insulting really seeing as he in essence made all this happen.
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He's pulled out because he knew he couldn't win the leadership race once Gove threw his hat into the ring.
 
Robin.
Boris is not that easily deterred with anything, if he really had the political ambition he wouldn't let one person questioning his competence stop him from running. People have been critical of him for years including in being mayor and he still ran twice.
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I have said it before in thread, I have no admiration for any PMs :)

Has for BOJO he may have some gumption behind him I don,t know, But for all we know he may take some back seat with Gove?
Plus who ever gets the yardstick to sort all this out is taking on a crappy position and unless they get some really good outcome is not going to do much for there careers.
 
PzR Slim
He's pulled out because he knew he couldn't win the leadership race once Gove threw his hat into the ring.
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I think the Conservatives will keep him 'for another day', they'll offer a lamb to the slaughter or at least someone who's expendable, and save their big guns for later.
 
Highlandor
I think the Conservatives will keep him 'for another day', they'll offer a lamb to the slaughter or at least someone who's expendable, and save their big guns for later.
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I really don't read it like that. Up until Gove launched his own bid Johnson was still in the running, still the favorite. Murdoch throwing his hat in with Gove yesterday was a huge turning point. Which says an awful lot about politics in this country.
 
Wow, this is quite the development.

It's as though none of them truly wanted the UK to vote Leave, they just wanted to rock the boat a little. Well guess what? Thanks to your mutiny the boat isn't just rocking, it's capsizing.
 
Liquid
Wow, this is quite the development.

It's as though none of them truly wanted the UK to vote Leave, they just wanted to rock the boat a little. Well guess what? Thanks to your mutiny the boat isn't just rocking, it's capsizing.
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And perhaps the whole EU is capsizing. Pity, just as it was assembling an army for war.
 
I'm curious why anyone thinks Boris would even want to be PM. Why would he want the stress of that job and being lead puppet rather than the freedom to muck about in the background and pull a few strings? He's never been in a government cabinet - and in fact has only been an MP in the governing party since May last - and his highest ranking parliamentary positions were shadow arts minister and shadow higher education minister...

Would a man many credit with Machiavellian deviousness harbour such naked ambition?
 
PzR Slim
I really don't read it like that. Up until Gove launched his own bid Johnson was still in the running, still the favorite. Murdoch throwing his hat in with Gove yesterday was a huge turning point. Which says an awful lot about politics in this country.
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I think the Conservatives understand that Boris is a 'dark horse' and provides a real alternative to the stereotypical candidate they'd offer, what some see as a baffoon or clown, others see as character. I think they'll want to keep as many eggs in their basket as they can until they finally out Corbyn.

I do agree with you 100% re what this says about UK politics though, you hit the nail on the head with that.

Liquid
It's as though none of them truly wanted the UK to vote Leave, they just wanted to rock the boat a little.
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Good point, but it's not their boat that's capsizing, it's Labour's, and if Cobyn goes, that's it, the whole party will sink.
 
Touring Mars
Either way, BJ's political career has taken a massive blow.
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He seems to have been out-politicked at every turn since leaving the mayorship. If it wasn't for the feeling that Britain's going to hell in a handcart this would be one of the most fascinating political periods in living memory.
 

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