Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[Danoff]

When I answered your post you hadn't edited in the reference to "just the bus". The implication on the bus was clear in the context of the rest of the campaign; £350m could be diverted to the NHS per week. This is courtesy of @Scaff 's link;

Yea, that's a bit more incriminating. I don't understand UK politics well enough to know whether the people doing the campaigning were actually in a position (or would have elected into a position) to try to get that done. For example, if Joe Nobody here in the US ran a campaign to end Farming Subsidies and said something like "Let's give Social Security the money we give to farmers every week", I wouldn't think the SS portion was a campaign promise, because Joe Nobody was not remotely in a position to do it. He's just stumping for a referendum on one issue - ending the farming subsidies, and is giving an example of what it could be spent on. I should probably stop posting in this thread because at every turn I'm met with not knowing enough about the politics to keep going and I'm probably just annoying everyone. I am learning though. It's tough to get answers to these questions by just reading uninformative news snippets.

 

[PzR Slim]

I agree with quite a bit of this.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...r-brexit?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

 

[tarnheld]

Interesting commentary in the german newspaper FAZ (in german): He contrasts the Scottish independence referendum with the Brexit referendum, particularly he praised the very detailed information put forward by the Scottish government regarding the independence -- i guess that's the 670 page white paper Scotland's Future (executive summary on Wikipedia) that contains detailed issues, changes and opportunities following the independence. If you look for a similar document by the Leave campaign there is not much besides Daily Mail and Telegraph articles.
Irregardless of a judgement of Brexit he goes on condemning this aimless and disorganized no-confidence vote against status quo without investing any thought about the future -- he calls it a new low-point of politics. He stresses one point: if you call on the whole electorate to vote yes or no you are held to outline the costs and ways you have in mind. Everything else is not politics (lawmaking) but adventurism. There are a lot of adventurers making a lot of promises but everybody should question the actual problem solving abilities of people talking at length what they are against but don't offer any insight of their ways of action; question if they are even willing to accept the state of law and what independent courts have to say; if they even know the laws they don't want to change but abolish right away. Be suspicious of the loudmouths.

 

[mister dog]

Not exactly Brexit but it seems the Dutch gov. hastily signed a EU treaty which basically hands over the 1200 billion of Dutch pension funds to Europe.

100 page document was only released to them on Tuesday at 7PM, and they already approved it the next day. Now that it is approved they want a debate to study what the document is about as they didnt have time to read it

Proper food for a nexit IMO. Linkies in Dutch:

http://www.ad.nl/dossier-nieuws/oppositie-woest-over-procedure-rond-pensioenen~ac7e2bc8/
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/07/totaal_idioot_dit.html#comments

 

[tarnheld]

Not exactly Brexit but it seems the Dutch gov. hastily signed a EU treaty which basically hands over the 1200 billion of Dutch pension funds to Europe.

Is this about IORP-II, a revision published in 2014 of a regulation (from 2003) for pension funds operating in the EU? Taken from their FAQs it tries to

"Ensure the soundness of occupational pensions and better protect pension scheme members and beneficiaries."

I'm no financial expert; what's exactly wrong about that?

100 page document was only released to them on Tuesday at 7PM, and they already approved it the next day. Now that it is approved they want a debate to study what the document is about as they didnt have time to read it

Isn't it the opposition that hasn't read it? The revision was published a year ago.

 

[mister dog]

Is this about IORP-II, a revision published in 2014 of a regulation (from 2003) for pension funds operating in the EU? Taken from their FAQs it tries to

"Ensure the soundness of occupational pensions and better protect pension scheme members and beneficiaries."

I'm no financial expert; what's exactly wrong about that?

Yes it is, as far as i understand the matter, the problem is that the pension funds can now be relocated to another country which might have worse or more 'liberal' laws of what can be done with the money. Problem is also that many Dutch people that saved up for that won't like to see that happening.

Isn't it the opposition that hasn't read it? The revision was published a year ago.

No article mentions that the revised draft which they had to vote on was only made available for them on Tuesday evening, and many probably didn't even read the previous versions neither, but the vote was already the next day. So in effect it was agreed upon with most of the parliament probably not even knowing what the document exactly contained. Hence them doing a debate about it now after the fact.

 

[Omnis]

House of Cards happening to the Torys lol.

 

[tarnheld]

Yes it is, as far as i understand the matter, the problem is that the pension funds can now be relocated to another country which might have worse or more 'liberal' laws of what can be done with the money. Problem is also that many Dutch people that saved up for that won't like to see that happening.

From the revised proposal:

Unless national social and labour law on the organisation of pension systems provides otherwise, the transfer and its conditions shall be made subject to prior approval by the members and beneficiaries concerned or, where applicable, their representatives. In any event, information on the conditions of the transfer shall be made available to the members and beneficiaries concerned or, where applicable, their representatives at least four months before the application referred to in paragraph 2 is submitted...

You have to be informed of a transfer and can disapprove of it.

Upon receiving the communication referred to in paragraph 6, or if no communication is received from the competent authority of the home Member State of the receiving institution on expiry of the period laid down in paragraph 6, the receiving institution may start to operate the pension scheme in accordance with the requirements of social and labour law relevant to the field of occupational pensions of the host Member State.

The remote pension fund has to operate in accordance to the laws of the member state the pension schemes were transferred from, so in your case Belgian law.

I'm not a lawyer, but the proposal is pretty clear about this.

 

[mister dog]

Apparently the fuss is about this part:

All of this is over my head though, and seeing there's a 100 pages total it's probably over all our heads. Anyhow people are angry that the Dutch gov. approved an EU resolution less than a day after they received the document, opening the door to moving people's pension funds around. It's not a very popular measure and it will help to enforce a growing anti EU sentiment there.

 

[Robin]

So Michael Gove was an actor... once

He played a Vicar in a 1980's low budget film called 'A Feast At Midnight'.

I knew his face looked like one which would be perfect for film, or comedy

 

[ExigeEvan]

Www.gove2016.co.uk


Brilliant

 

[chromatic9]

Yea, that's a bit more incriminating. I don't understand UK politics well enough to know whether the people doing the campaigning were actually in a position (or would have elected into a position) to try to get that done. For example, if Joe Nobody here in the US ran a campaign to end Farming Subsidies and said something like "Let's give Social Security the money we give to farmers every week", I wouldn't think the SS portion was a campaign promise, because Joe Nobody was not remotely in a position to do it. He's just stumping for a referendum on one issue - ending the farming subsidies, and is giving an example of what it could be spent on. I should probably stop posting in this thread because at every turn I'm met with not knowing enough about the politics to keep going and I'm probably just annoying everyone. I am learning though. It's tough to get answers to these questions by just reading uninformative news snippets.

What's interesting is behind all the catchy headlines of £350 million per week...

The leave campaign did issue a statement in early June saying the actual figure is around 160 million net (which is a figure I've heard from all sides even though Scaff and Famine are saying 120/130) and a 100 million will be spent on the NHS.

No one is going to read that though and if you did you'll realize 100 million a week isn't much when the NHS cost 116 billion, a few billion more is a tiny bonus.

A counter point is the rebate will need to be re-negotiated in 2020 and France have in past I believe have said no more rebate for UK. I can only see our net contribution going up after voting remain.

When you see such lies of 350 million mostly not tackled, very poorly conducted debates, the statements from MPs after the vote, it seems as if this leave vote is quietly wanted by politicians.

 

[axletramp]

Obvious legal challenge is going to be made, not to stop it as such, but to make sure the legal process is adhered to in a full Parliamentary debate and vote. I'm guessing the belief here is it will be automatically out-voted and therefore Article 50 won't be submitted. If so, I'm not sure where that leaves public referendums in the future. It would certainly add to tensions in those predominantly Brexit regions and leading to another set of marches and protests.

 

[Dennisch]

Nigel getting ready to resign?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Nigel getting ready to resign?

It seems so... although he's resigned before and it seemed to make little difference. BBC have it as a stub at the moment, they'll probably flesh this link out as the day goes on.

 

[Dennisch]

So, he wanted to sink the ship so badly that he personally poked holes in the bottom and now he leaves.

I'm guessing that dealing with an actual political disaster was too much for him to handle.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So, he wanted to sink the ship so badly that he personally poked holes in the bottom and now he leaves.

I'm guessing that dealing with an actual political disaster was too much for him to handle.

He and Boris both, sitting together on a branch and sawing away at the wrong end.

 

[Dennisch]

Rats. Both of them. Take your responsibility and lead that ****.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So, he wanted to sink the ship so badly that he personally poked holes in the bottom and now he leaves.

I'm guessing that dealing with an actual political disaster was too much for him to handle.

He says that he wants to poke holes in other ships around Europe (though maybe not in those exact words).

 

[Famine]

As UKIP was founded on a goal of the UK achieving independence from Europe and that's now happening, the party is superfluous and should disband regardless.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

Can't see UKIP lasting much longer. Though I found Farage and pretty much all of UKIP's policies to be morally awful, he certainly had a charisma which helped him find favour with millions of voters. I doubt anyone else in UKIP will achieve anywhere near as much.

And anyway, a party whose sole policy was to extract the UK from Europe seems a little redundant now that has been achieved..

EDIT: tree'd by @Famine by a matter of seconds

 

[Hun200kmh]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...emotional-need-to-gossip-particularly-when-d/


Just read this and I am amazed by the low self-respect the political class shows in the UK. Even if this Gove character is a weasel, we don't need to know he is a drunken weasel, what's the point?

If they - the entire UK political class - go down this path much further one day the people will stop believing in the system in place, then they'll be ready for a "saviour", such person will show up - they always do - and a political earthquake will follow. Probably through democratic vote.

Maybe this one?

 

[tarnheld]

Farage:
"The victory for the 'Leave' side in the referendum means that my political ambition has been achieved."
"What I'm saying today is - I want my life back."

Spoiler: Infinite Facepalm

 

[TenEightyOne]

Just read this and I am amazed by the low self-respect the political class shows in the UK. Even if this Gove character is a weasel, we don't need to know he is a drunken weasel, what's the point?

You don't think it's important to know that effective command of the armed forces and our nukes might be given to a PM who tattles after drinkies? This is the same character who was caught in a rather juicy tabloid sex-romp sting some years ago, as I recall.

On the other hand you should bear in mind that this is written by a member of the campaign that was recently shafted by Gove - there's no love lost there. Be cautious of what you read in newspapers, they're not always proper "news"

 

[Fgame]

So, he wanted to sink the ship so badly that he personally poked holes in the bottom and now he leaves.

I'm guessing that dealing with an actual political disaster was too much for him to handle.

That's just your view though. I voted leave, and so did the majority of the UK. I am happy with how it is going now, this "disaster" in politics is actually a good thing. I am optimistic for the future.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Why is anyone surprised that Farage is resigning? The only reason he became a politician was to get the UK out of the EU, now that's been done why would he stay?

 

[Fgame]

Why is anyone surprised that Farage is resigning? The only reason he became a politician was to get the UK out of the EU, now that's been done why would he stay?

It's not over yet though, article 50 needs to be invoked.

 

[Robin]

Nigel Farage - "I want my life back"

Now where have I heard that before....

 

[Spurgy 777]

It's not over yet though, article 50 needs to be invoked.

True, but it's unlikely that it won't be invoked, so it's pretty much over.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Why is anyone surprised that Farage is resigning? The only reason he became a politician was to get the UK out of the EU, now that's been done why would he stay?

I agree, people should have realised that as a spineless self-serving liar he'd have no intention of sticking around to help clean up the fecal-whirlpool he was instrumental in creating.