Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum

Results are only viewable after voting.
drummingcat
"dont waste this time" says Tusk.

Meanwhile numerous British politicians are seen leaving parliament with suitcases, off on their holibobs!
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Presumably they have to take advantage of unrestricted entry into the EuroZone while they still can.
 
Tired Tyres
Never ending time extension time. Limbo, limbo limbo. How is anyone meant to make investment under these circumstances?
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Short answer, they're not. I'm now very seriously considering emigrating to the US since the job market and economy are much more stable there, despite all of the other political turmoil they're going through. Why should I invest my time and pay my taxes towards an economy bent on self destruction?
 
Well this chap - apparently known by the name "Sargon of Akkad" (edit: this seems to be some kind of edgy "Youtuber" name) - is faintly awful:



More awful is the applause. It's almost like dehumanising people you don't agree with leads to entrenched, tribal behaviour...

Edit: I also discovered when looking this guy up that there were four direct-to-DVD and Netflix sequels to The Scorpion King. Four. And three different actors played the lead role. This may be worse...
 
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Famine
Well this chap - apparently known by the name "Sargon of Akkad" (edit: this seems to be some kind of edgy "Youtuber" name) - is faintly awful:
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If these tweets about his being a huge fan of Jim Crow are accurate I'd find that more than faintly awful.

 
UKMikey
If these tweets about his being a huge fan of Jim Crow are accurate I'd find that more than faintly awful.

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I think you need to appreciate the context of @Famine ’s condemnation, after all he wasn’t holding a rude sign and racism is only as worse as impoliteness...
 
baldgye
I think you need to appreciate the context of @Famine ’s condemnation, after all he wasn’t holding a rude sign and racism is only as worse as impoliteness...
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It's kind of sad that you keep banging this drum without realising that attitudes like yours lead to people like him.
 
UKMikey
If these tweets about his being a huge fan of Jim Crow are accurate I'd find that more than faintly awful.

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Sounds like a load of crap to me, unless there is proof of any of it.

Which I highly doubt, the only time he used the N word was when it was aimed at White nationalists, it doesn't really make sense though.
The Pedophile thing is total BS but I wouldn't expect proof from Twitter Smear mechants.
 
Famine
It's kind of sad that you keep banging this drum without realising that attitudes like yours lead to people like him.
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That’s because they don’t.

The worst of the pro-EU side of this debate has amounted to some rude signs at a rally (and a legal leaflet campaign showing the factual issues of leaving the EU I guess).
Yet the worst of the pro-leave side has resulted in the rise of extreme nationalists, the vindication of white supremacists and the murder of an MP.


And of course, we’re all here because of a vote that was illegally campaigned on, under the guise of making this country stronger and better. Neither of which are true.
 
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mustafur
Well I'm not going to fight that, proof is all I asked.
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That's why I posted a thread in which the "smear mechant" backed up all his "BS" allegations. You just have to click on the original Twitter post.
 
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baldgye
That’s because they don’t.
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They do - and very directly. They also lead to Trump, and to Brexit, and to the rise of what you'd term "far-right" activity.

You're willing to excuse insulting behaviour from people you agree with because you agree with them, or because you disagree with the people they are insulting. You think it's okay, because however rude the people you agree with are, at least they didn't break the law or lie to people. You're not alone - remember when Anna Soubry called for protestors calling her a Nazi in the street outside parliament to be arrested? Last week David Lammy called the ERG Nazis live on BBC One's Andrew Marr Show, and even though Marr called him out on it (he doubled-down) nothing really happened... but that's okay because the ERG actually are Nazis, right*?

You don't seem to appreciate that you can't change someone's mind away from the lie by insulting them, and you don't seem to see that this only entrenches their position. The more you insult people, the more you alienate them, and the more alienated they feel the more they will align with the lunatic fringes - 'yeah, they may say that they wouldn't even rape a female Labour MP, but that's just shock value and they're saying things that the establishment don't want them to say'.

And then confirmation bias happens. It's an incredibly strong bias, which essentially means that people ignore anything that doesn't fit their mindset but seize upon anything that does**. The Soubry/Lammy thing above? To them that's "the establishment" calling for censorship on them but promoting another saying the same thing.

In extreme cases, the entrenched views, the alignment with nutjobs and confirmation bias might even generate actual racism in people who weren't actually racist. This really happens - people who'd not given much thought to race and racism become racist because the people they're aligned with are called racist almost perpetually, and the people doing it are black. See also "gammon", an insult referring to the pinky skin colour of pretty much every over-40 white male in the UK (not me; I'm more like the colour of plastic people make photocopiers out of). It's apparently fine to use an insult to refer to their skin colour, but not fine to do it back again - to these people that's "the establishment" censoring them but promoting another saying the same thing.


I have already explained this to you, but you seem to prefer to continue sniping rather than address it.
Famine
Which is rather the point. Each side now doesn't see the other as humans to converse with, they see them as opponents to be vilified. It's like a local derby football match, but played out across the whole country (and in other countries too).

It doesn't matter who is rudest. Both are rude to each other, because there's no longer such a thing as civil discourse. There's only jeering, insults and threats.
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Famine
This shouldn't be a revolutionary concept, or even objectionable. Insulting other people instead of engaging with them with civility is unbecoming of adults.

It's surely not contentious? Do you disagree? Do you think that calling other people rude names is appropriate behaviour? Are there points on offer for being rude but not as rude as the horrible, violent, racist other lot?
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Trump used this tactic to great effect in 2016, exploiting the naivety of everyone - first the GOP and then the Democrats - in dealing with it. I wouldn't necessarily say it was smart, but it was definitely Trumpian - make a loud, false, offensive statement and, by the time your opponent has fact-checked it and responded with outrage (on the media outlets he'd told everyone were lying to them), he'd moved onto the next loud, false, offensive statement.

Trump's win even over the Republican candidates changed the landscape. UKIP went from riding a very small swell to a giant wave as a result, and Brexit ended up being campaigned on the same tactics.

It's literally trolling. You know the old saying "Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"? That's exactly what the Trump and Leave campaigns did, and everyone fell into the trap and got beaten with experience. That's why we end up with people who spend their lives trolling becoming candidates for political power - and it's a pretty straight line from calling each other names to that point. And I doubt Trump is even the nadir of it all.

You don't beat trolls by responding in kind. You also don't beat them by getting all offended (they'll just call you snowflakes), or by patiently explaining all the facts behind why the lie is a lie - because by the time you have done, they've moved on to their next trolling. You can't beat them by deplatforming them either, because that feeds into the anti-establishment narrative, and we're actually at the point now where they will pretend they have been deplatformed in order to increase their kudos ("Twitter shadowbanned me for telling the truth they don't want you to hear!"). You beat trolls by not paying any attention to them, and teaching your children how to think rather than what to think, and not to be abusive, rude and boorish.


Or just keep feeding them, keep insulting each other, and turn every issue into "us vs. them".

And even if you disagree with all of that, you can't possibly think that two grown adults throwing insults at each other, rather than having a civil conversation, is a good look for either of them. Especially not as a GTPlanet Premium member, who accepts and has bought into the fact that we have unusual rules about behaviour because it "creates a more pleasant and attractive place for everyone".


*Quick spoiler, they aren't. They do absolutely seem to have a few points of view in common, but so do quite a few other, more 'normal' organisations, and, as mentioned above, it's really not helpful to level that as an accusation or insult.
**It doesn't just affect the Leavers either; Andrea Leadsom got a mailed death threat from "the real 48%" and when she posted it on Twitter, there were a lot of reactions suggesting it was a Brexiteer ruse/false flag/hoax... Who knows, it could have been, but the willingness to ignore the possibility that a Remainer could have sent it is pure confirmation bias.
 
I don’t see much value in quoting your whole essay, but I think the crux of it is flawed. You can’t simply logic a racist into a non-racist and no one is trying to.

Famine
You think it's okay, because however rude the people you agree with are, at least they didn't break the law or lie to people.
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Do I?
When you kicked off about the signs and banners in the Second Vote march.

Yet when the ‘other side’ of the debate is found to be racist, Xenophobic, help push white supremecist values, be responsible for murder etc it’s just a bit unfortunate...

You have no balance and time and time again you seem happy to give literal racists and criminals a pass but come down on people who are just frustrated.

I do not agree with your concept of being against deplatforming. Deplatforming is a very effective move against all kinds of dumb **** from extremism to anti-vaxers.

And I’ve never suggested that it’s acceptable for two adults to stand around arguing at each other. In fact in the Scotland Independents vote thread (which was on another site) I couldn’t in-fact understand why both England and Scotland couldn’t just get along as we ask our children to.
 
PzR Slim
Interested turn of phrase, 'level of racism'. Does that mean a level of racism is acceptable?
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At UKIP? Yes, it's 'enough to be right for us, but not so much that we can't deny it all'.
baldgye
I don’t see much value in quoting your whole essay, but I think the crux of it is flawed. You can’t simply logic a racist into a non-racist and no one is trying to.
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That's not the crux of it. In fact I don't mention people moving in that direction at all.
baldgye
Yet when the ‘other side’ of the debate is found to be racist, Xenophobic, help push white supremecist values, be responsible for murder etc it’s just a bit unfortunate...
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You'll have no trouble finding those quotes then.
baldgye
You have no balance and time and time again you seem happy to give literal racists and criminals a pass but come down on people who are just frustrated
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You'll have no trouble finding those quotes then.

As for no balance, saying that the extremists on both sides are awful seems pretty balanced to me...
baldgye
I do not agree with your concept of being against deplatforming. Deplatforming is a very effective move against all kinds of dumb **** from extremism to anti-vaxers.
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And yet they aren't going anywhere. They - and flat earthers, and other anti -intellectual views - are only getting more entrenched, like it's a badge of honour to be such a threat to the establishment that you get blocked.
baldgye
And I’ve never suggested that it’s acceptable for two adults to stand around arguing at each other. In fact in the Scotland Independents vote thread (which was on another site) I couldn’t in-fact understand why both England and Scotland couldn’t just get along as we ask our children to.
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And yet all you want to do in this thread recently is snipe at me for saying rude placards and calling politicians ****s is not acceptable behaviour, by bringing up occasions when people on the other side of the coin are behaving worse.

That's giving a free ride to the rude remainers because they aren't as bad as the worst leavers...
 
baldgye
Yet when the ‘other side’ of the debate is found to be racist, Xenophobic, help push white supremecist values, be responsible for murder etc it’s just a bit unfortunate...
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It's almost like you're dehumanizing people you don't agree with.
 
I’ll dig out your outrage to Mogg reposting the AFD....

Famine
As for no balance, saying that the extremists on both sides are awful seems pretty balanced to me...
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Now people peacefully protesting are extremists?

***iOS Safari is terrible and I can no longer select text to quote, so I’ll paraphrase***

“They aren’t going anywhere”

Yes, they are. When twitter kicked off a whole bunch of racists they formed their own private little community. Which keeps their vile hate out of the general public chatter. Facebook just banned Britain First, who managed to get so viral on that platform, people where reposting their content without realising what they where. They’ve gone.
Removing these people/groups from the general conversation makes that conversation better, for everyone. Unless you think racists and xenophobic’s opinions on immigration are of any value.

“All I do is snipe at you”
Being rude to politicians is something of a tradition, though usually with a bit more wit. Yes Minister, (the one with the horrible masks which names escaped me), The Thick of It... etc... however comparing those signs to even the pro-Brexit protest at Westminster is moronic.

I’m not giving anyone a free pass. I’m showing that yeah, sometimes rude signs are not nice. But pointing those people out as ‘the problem’ is idiotic compared to the appalling racist behaviour of the Brexiters, one of which literally retweeted the AfD?!
 
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baldgye
But pointing those people out as ‘the problem’ is idiotic compared to the appalling racist behaviour of the Brexiters, one of which literally retweeted the AfD?!
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I liked that AfD speech. She had some good things to say. I don't care what else she says, what she was saying then was interesting. Quite a few people liked that. This is not evidence of horrible behavior.

I think this AfD speech is actually a microcosm of the whole issue here, which is that you really don't want to address the point but would rather character smear. You'd rather insinuate that an intelligence speech is meaningless because you think that person is a racist than actually address the points made in the speech. You'd rather insinuate that the person re-tweeting it is racist than address the points in the speech.

This is Trumpism at its finest. I don't have to listen to coherent, intelligent, points because I don't like you.
 

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