Contenintal Tire Challenge Series interest

[SuperShouden]

Would anyone be interested in this? We could even run both classes. Wouldn't be too hard. I mean the GS cars would be the Mustang GT, BMW M3, Subaru Legacy, maybe one of the Audis, and a couple others. The ST class would feature cars like the Mazda Miata and Mazda 3, VW Golf GTI, Honda Civic and some others to be determined. This could be a fun series. No pole to vote on, but just seeing if anyone would be interested.

Cars: Based on the 2010 rule book

GS:
BMW M3
Ford Mustang GT
Nissan 350Z
Pontiac GTO
Chevrolette Camaro SS
Audi S4 (2003 model)

ST:
BMW 330i
Audi TT 3.2
Honda Civic Type-R
Mazda MX-5
Volkswagen Golf GTi
Mini Cooper S

And I'm sure we could figure out some other cars to run in both categories. These are just the cars that have run, or are currently running.

According to the rules GS cars are limited to vehicles with 8, 6 and 4-cylinder engines, while ST are limited to cars with 6 and 4-cylinder engines. Also, these cars are pretty much stock. Grand-Am rules basically state that drivers can remove weight, add a role cage and do some minor adjustments to the car's engine, but it's basically a "showroom stock" format.

 

[fogbound]

Sounds like fun but I am pretty booked up with three classes in the LMP series.

 

[apemax]

this could be fun. count me in.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'm curious, problem is I haven't played GT5P enough to get to the online parts yet. But I'll be watching this thread, and hopefully over the next few weeks see about getting online.

 

[SuperShouden]

well, this will be on GT4 until GT5 comes out, I think. I think if I get a few more interested racers, I'll start working on setting this up.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

well, this will be on GT4 until GT5 comes out, I think. I think if I get a few more interested racers, I'll start working on setting this up.

OH well if it's GT4 I'm definitely in. 👍 I'll try running a 'Stang, although it'll be a trial run at first because PD screwed up the '05 Mustang GT in GT4.

What sort of tires would we be able to use? How would weight reductions work, too? Just curious how all this stuff would get worked out and it seems you've done this before.

We could add Audi and Subaru Imprezas to GS class, though I'd have check which model Audi is running.

 

[SuperShouden]

We could add Imprezas, but it's the Audi S5 that's in GS, at the moment. the RS4 or something would be the closest in GT4. and the little Hot hatch Impreza is the one that's running there. (It sucks, too, 'cause it looks a lot like the Mazda 3s in ST.) But I guess we could simply use the newest Impreza model.

And, I think they made the Mustang better in GT4. I mean, doesn't it have 4 wheel independent suspension in the game? whereas, in real life, it has a bar for the rear suspension.

Also, I don't know about the weight restrictions and tires, I'd have to do some testing.

 

[GTsail]

I'd be interested in running a car in the GS division

What's tough is equalizing the cars through ballast and/or power before the start of the Series, or one car will dominate.

You might want to limit the possible ST class cars or it will take forever to test them.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[SuperShouden]

yeah. I know the BMWs have a weight penalties on 'em to keep them from blowing away the Mustangs.

This year is unique in that about 98% of the cars are brand new. And the remaining 2% will be switching to newer models by the end of the ear...even the Minis are 2010 models, I believe. But, yeah, I can definitely limit the cars in ST class. Probably to cars that were run last year and this year. Which would narrow the field down to a few. (Mini, BMW 330, VW GTi, Honda Civic, Mazda Miata) And the first season is always the hardest.

 

[SuperShouden]

Alright. Looked at the 2010 Rules, and decided to base everything off that. The SRT4 has been omitted, and replaced with the Audi TT. The 2003 Audi S4 has been added to the GS line-up as the 2010 S4 is in the RL series.

I'm doing the testing to figure out weight penalties and things now.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

We could add Imprezas, but it's the Audi S5 that's in GS, at the moment. the RS4 or something would be the closest in GT4. and the little Hot hatch Impreza is the one that's running there. (It sucks, too, 'cause it looks a lot like the Mazda 3s in ST.) But I guess we could simply use the newest Impreza model.

And, I think they made the Mustang better in GT4. I mean, doesn't it have 4 wheel independent suspension in the game? whereas, in real life, it has a bar for the rear suspension.

Take a Mustang to the Test Course tests (0-400M and 0-1,000M). They're pretty slow. Here's some of my results.

0-60 mph: 6.966 seconds
0-100 mph: 14.500 seconds
0-150 mph: 48.533 seconds


1/4 Mile: 15.302 @ 102 mph
1 Kilom: 26.529 @ 132 mph


Granted, I do my tests dropping the clutch at idle in 1st gear with S2 tires, but these figures are pathetic when compared to a slew of other cars (real-life and in the game). The real-life Mustang GT is definately not this slow.

The reason is due to the car's tires. They smoke up and lose traction much too easily, which (my opinion) PD didn't get right because they perhaps didn't have a real-life version to compare to yet. Remember that GT4 came out in spring 2004. The new Mustang didn't come out until the fall of 2004 if I remember correct.

This may or may not affect the car's lap times when rolling around a track, though, I'm not sure yet. Like I said, I wanna do some messing around with the 'Stang before I officially enter one.

One thing the Mustang has in GT4 is great brakes. It doesn't accelerate from a dead stop well, but its brakes are phenomenol.

I also wanna do an ST class car, too, if it's okay with you.

Alright. Looked at the 2010 Rules, and decided to base everything off that. The SRT4 has been omitted, and replaced with the Audi TT. The 2003 Audi S4 has been added to the GS line-up as the 2010 S4 is in the RL series.

I'm doing the testing to figure out weight penalties and things now.

Where can we review the real-life rules? I'd like to take a look at them. 💡

 

[Austin343]

The reason is due to the car's tires. They smoke up and lose traction much too easily...

One thing the Mustang has in GT4 is great brakes.

Well, the issue that you mention is not unique to the Mustang. In general, a persistent flaw with the tire modeling in GT games is too much grip under braking and not enough under acceleration, as compared to real life. The stopping distance of just about any car on any tires, if you stop to think about it or compare with any footage of real driving, is ludicrously short, while some suspiciously poor 0-60 times result largely from the lack of grip when accelerating.

 

[SuperShouden]

Yeah, I've done my testing and the Mustang is REALLY slow whereas the BMWs are REALLY fast. I think I have a target time area for each class for the track (I'm running on Twin Ring Motegi East), but I might also run tests on another track to get more data points because the ST class was close besides the BMW, with the Audi only a second faster than the the rest which were in the 1'43.xx second range.

as for the rules, you can google "Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge Rules" or click this link

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I've compared many cars in GT4 (as well as other Gran Turismos) to their real-live counterparts, and PD usually gets acceleration in the ballpark. It's not always exact (although sometimes it is!), but the '05 Mustang GT is way way off. Zero to sixty should be in the mid to upper-fives, for instance, not close to seven seconds!

Thanks SuperShoulden for the link. Will check it out!

 

[SuperShouden]

you're welcome.

I did some testing on Opera Paris and that made things much clearer. The Mustang can actually run with the others...until it gets to the straights. For a V8 Muscle Car with Ford's lovely Coyote 4 Engine, this car sure is slow.

I'm trying to avoid touching the HP, as it appears the real CTC rules leave the HP stock save a change to the ECU, which is regulated by Grand-Am. (I have reduced the BMW 330i's HP as it was lowered in the 2009 rules. It's now at 224.) Some minor adjustments to the weight and things should be pretty even.

Thanks to everyone for the help, btw.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

How did you reduce power for the 330i? Curious.

I actually just printed out the pdf from that link you posted! Such a dork I am! Some things I'm noticing...

>Rule #3-3.6: ABS and Traction control, if used, may only be OEM for the car unless specified by Section 8. These systems, if used, must be used in conjunction with the as-delivered OEM management systems. Aftermarket systems may not be used....bla bla bla...

I'm taking this to mean we can use TCS if the real-life car has it as stock. Not saying I will use it for this race-series, I'm just saying it's possible for us to use. Just making a note of it...



>>Rule #4-2.1: All balast must be carried in a box constructed of metal with a minimum thickness of .100 and utilize the passenger seat mounts for anchoring. The box must fully enclose the ballast...bla bla bla...

I'm taking this to mean we won't be able to push ballast fore or aft. Therefore, we can add ballast, but not move the slider which places it in the trunk or towards the front.

>>>
Rule 4-2.2: It is prohibited to add or remove weight during the race.

Self-explanatory. We all agree on what each car should race, and we can't change this afterwards.


>>>>Rule 6-1 All cars must be equipped with a roll cage...bla bla bla...[/b]

I'm actually not liking this one, as it's not necessary in a video game, but I'll go by this rule if everybody else agrees.

>>>>>>Rules 6-3: I summarized this one. Hubcaps, wheel trim, spare wheel, jack, any tools, airbags, steering wheel locks, and catalytic converters must be removed. This factors weight to a small degree; so let's see what else they want removed.


I'm assuming for now the Mustang's power won't need to be touched (which is probably for the best because it gets better traction when power is near-stock). Otherwise, I'm assuming a full-custom suspension (3.5 inch minimum ride height)

 

[SuperShouden]

Umm...you can change the HP in Arcade Mode, which is where this series is going to be run...and, since I can't remove that stuff, I'm simply starting with stock weight and adding or removing weight to get the lap times to where I want them.

The Mustang is actually going to loose some weight. It's Acceleration is awful, but it can handle corners pretty well.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Oh, see I don't run Arcade mode at all. I forgot you can manipulate power lower than stock. Can settings be changed, though? I've never been able to use my own parts & settings in Arcade (which is why I've never gone there). Changing parts and settings would affect the following:

Rule 7-2.1: GRAND-AM may allow a brake upgrade for specific models. If allowed, only one two-piece (split in two halves) caliper of alumninum alloy with a maximum of four pistons and two wheel pads per wheel permitted.

Rule 7-2.5: Brake pads, brake lines, and hoses are free provided standard I.D. and routing are maintained....bla bla bla

Rule 7-2.6: Replacement brake rotors may be used provided the replacement is of the same material and is within 5% of the OEM rotor dimension. bla bla bla...

That's somewhat confusing, but I'm taking it to mean Racing Brake kits could be used for certain models. Since the Mustang GT and BMW 330i have great braking action, they'd go stock here...but some models would need better parts if their braking sucks?


Rule 7-2.2 talks about ABS being deactivated and/or removed. Since all cars in GT4 have ABS installed as standard, it's impossible to mess with it at all. My question would be for those drivers who have wheels (instead of dual-shock controllers)> I know it's possible to turn ABS off in GT5P if the driver has a wheel. What about in GT4?

>>Rule 7-2.8: Cars are allowed cockpit brake fluid bias adjustment.

So brake balancers are okay.


>>>Rule 7-3 Shocks, Springs, Suspension

To summarize all this, it's looking as if camber can be modified (not more than 3 degrees), "springs may be replaced", front and rear sway bars may be replaced or added. In addition, Rule 7-11 states minimum ride height is 3.5 inches. All of this means it's sounding like Racing Suspension parts could be used.

>>>Rule 7-13.4: GRAND-AM will specify any alternate gear ratios for cars on the vehicle eligiblity chart.

Racing full-custom transmission possible for some cars...



There's other stuff listed about the differential, clutch, flywheel...

...I'm basically just trying to find out if we're allowed to tune or not. I've never been able to get one of "my" cars tuned in Arcade mode. I know you said this in the opening post:

Also, these cars are pretty much stock. Grand-Am rules basically state that drivers can remove weight, add a role cage and do some minor adjustments to the car's engine, but it's basically a "showroom stock" format.

However, the actual Continental Challenge rulebook contradicts this.

 

[SuperShouden]

brakes and things can't be changed in Arcade Mode, but using Arcade mode prevents people from having an unfair advantage by toying with gears and shocks and all that.

And as for the Rule book contradicting the showroom stock thing...not really. I mean, some cars are allowed some minor modifications, but I take it that these would be like the Street Muffler or a new ECU, some brake changes per rules, weight reduction and tire modifications. But, if you notice, ALL aftermarket parts have to OEM parts. They regulate everything pretty much how I'm going to: adding and subtracting weight and power to make the cars as even as possible.

And, some cars are better at different tracks.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Right, they're all OEM parts, but I'm seeing ride height can be changed, camber can be changed, brake balance can be changed, among other things. In some cases, parts can be replaced from the aftermarket, which means they could be improvements over what's available from the dealer. That would mean the real-life series is not being run with a bunch of stock cars...anything but stock, really.

But it's cool. I'd rather tune to the actual CTC guidelines, but if this series isn't being run this way (in this thread), I'm still interested. What sort of tires would we be able to use in GS or ST? Would front-drives be able to run softer tires or no?

Sorry I'm asking all these questions and stuff, but I just wanna get it right the first time, know what I mean?

 

[SuperShouden]

I'd probably run it like the LMS series with a qualifying round run on soft tires and let people choose between SH, SM and SS tires for the actual race.

But as for the the modifications. I hear what you're saying, but, the thing is, from what it sounds like, if you stuck street tires on the CTC cars, they'd be street legal. They have about the same modifications to them as rally cars, which are perfectly street legal, and are often driven to the different stages.

And "Showroom Stock" just means a car you might see in a showroom or autoshow. Some dealers might actually show a slightly modified car on their showroom and I've seen full race cars in showrooms, as well. (the Freightliner HQ in Portland has their Pikes Peak truck sitting in the lobby.) You're thinking of Street Stock or completely stock, which is made up of cars that are pretty much driven off the car lot and onto the track. A good example of this is the Volkwagen TDi Cup. The Jettas in the TDi Cup don't have a lot of mods. In fact, the only mods they have are a rolecage, racing seats and racing slick tires. Other than that, they're completely stock with all the seats, and everything.

"Showroom Stock" races are run by the SCCA all the time as well as the Street Stock races and Fully modified races.

NASCAR first started as completely stock vehicles with a rule being that it had to be stock with no modifications. Now, though, that rule has changed to be "The car has to be a production car."

So, yeah, there are four levels of Stock cars

1. Street Stock - little to no modifications. Example: Jetta TDi Cup

2. Showroom Stock - minor modifications including some HP upgrades, tires, weight reduction and brakes, but still street legal. Example: Rally Racing, Drifting, some SCCA races and Continental Tire Challenge Series.

3. Super Stock - Not Street legal, a lot more HP and modifications done, a lot of the bodies on these cars are changed to be lighter. Example: Grand-Am GT class (bodies are plastic molds from the real cars, LeMans GT class and ALMS GTS class.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'd probably run it like the LMS series with a qualifying round run on soft tires and let people choose between SH, SM and SS tires for the actual race.

Cool. I got a bunch of questions now...sorry. I'm not really familiar with how the LMS series is run, and GTP is a big place, so maybe you could link me up again. Sorry again ..... I literally got interested in this thread because of its title, but haven't run any virtual races here at GTP so....



1. Would there be a time limit? In other words, would we have a certain time limit (a day, a week, a month) to get this done? Or would it be a 'free for all'?

2. Would we need to get our best lap in, or is this gonna be done with a series of laps? Or is it gonna be done over the course of about 2 hours (like the real CTC)?

3. Does it have to be videod? I haven't got a digital camera, but I'm pretty sure my nephew or neice has one. If not, I'll frickin' buy one! I have no problem video-ing my part. There will be growin pains (figuring out how to get stuff on YouTube, etc) but I'll do it.

4. Any idea where the first event will be held?

But as for the the modifications. I hear what you're saying, but, the thing is, from what it sounds like, if you stuck street tires on the CTC cars, they'd be street legal. They have about the same modifications to them as rally cars, which are perfectly street legal, and are often driven to the different stages.

And "Showroom Stock" just means a car you might see in a showroom or autoshow. Some dealers might actually show a slightly modified car on their showroom and I've seen full race cars in showrooms, as well. (the Freightliner HQ in Portland has their Pikes Peak truck sitting in the lobby.) You're thinking of Street Stock or completely stock, which is made up of cars that are pretty much driven off the car lot and onto the track.

Yes I am, you got that right.I used to live in Portland, by the way. Miss it sometimes.

A good example of this is the Volkwagen TDi Cup. The Jettas in the TDi Cup don't have a lot of mods. In fact, the only mods they have are a rolecage, racing seats and racing slick tires. Other than that, they're completely stock with all the seats, and everything.

"Showroom Stock" races are run by the SCCA all the time as well as the Street Stock races and Fully modified races.

NASCAR first started as completely stock vehicles with a rule being that it had to be stock with no modifications. Now, though, that rule has changed to be "The car has to be a production car."

So, yeah, there are four levels of Stock cars

1. Street Stock - little to no modifications. Example: Jetta TDi Cup

2. Showroom Stock - minor modifications including some HP upgrades, tires, weight reduction and brakes, but still street legal. Example: Rally Racing, Drifting, some SCCA races and Continental Tire Challenge Series.

3. Super Stock - Not Street legal, a lot more HP and modifications done, a lot of the bodies on these cars are changed to be lighter. Example: Grand-Am GT class (bodies are plastic molds from the real cars, LeMans GT class and ALMS GTS class.

Yea I see what you're saying. I'd prefer more tuning than just weight and power, but I'll go by whatever you've got in mind for this thread.

I guess the bottom line is: I'm using a Mustang GT for the GS class, and not sure what I'm using for ST, but I'll come up with something. You may already have an idea of how the 'STang should be set-up. If so, you can go ahead and let me know? Or is that not supposed to happen yet?

 

[SuperShouden]

1. Would there be a time limit? In other words, would we have a certain time limit (a day, a week, a month) to get this done? Or would it be a 'free for all'?

2. Would we need to get our best lap in, or is this gonna be done with a series of laps? Or is it gonna be done over the course of about 2 hours (like the real CTC)?

3. Does it have to be videod? I haven't got a digital camera, but I'm pretty sure my nephew or neice has one. If not, I'll frickin' buy one! I have no problem video-ing my part. There will be growin pains (figuring out how to get stuff on YouTube, etc) but I'll do it.

4. Any idea where the first event will be held?

1. I don't know about the time limit. I've been thinking about that, as it would be more in line with what the actual CTC is, but I don't know.

2. If I did do a time limit, I'd want the number of laps completed, and what the lap time was. If I'm doing just laps, then it's total race time and best lap time.

3. No.

4. Nope. No Idea, but it'll probably be a real world track.

You can look in the long race series forum for the LMS races.

And I don't know exactly what I'm going to do with the Mustang, but you'll have to wait until I post the final HP/Weight restrictions for each car. That'll also be when I post the tracks we'll run.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

1. I don't know about the time limit. I've been thinking about that, as it would be more in line with what the actual CTC is, but I don't know.

2. If I did do a time limit, I'd want the number of laps completed, and what the lap time was. If I'm doing just laps, then it's total race time and best lap time.

3. No.

4. Nope. No Idea, but it'll probably be a real world track.

Oooh! I'm hoping Sears Point...I mean Infineon

You can look in the long race series forum for the LMS races.

And I don't know exactly what I'm going to do with the Mustang, but you'll have to wait until I post the final HP/Weight restrictions for each car. That'll also be when I post the tracks we'll run.

Okay, that's fine. You can tell I'm eager to get started, lol.


EDIT: tried searching for LMS, but it said no matches. What does LMS stand for? Maybe that'll help.

 

[SuperShouden]

Le Mans Series

Yeah, Infineon is probably one of the courses we'll visit. Along with Twin Ring Motegi, Laguna Seca, Suzuka,Tsukaba, and Fuji. I'll probably also toss in some Original circuits, as well, like Opera Paris and Grand Valley.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Le Mans Series

Oh...duh...

Yeah, Infineon is probably one of the courses we'll visit. Along with Twin Ring Motegi, Laguna Seca, Suzuka,Tsukaba, and Fuji. I'll probably also toss in some Original circuits, as well, like Opera Paris and Grand Valley.

Autumn Ring!

 

[SuperShouden]

maybe. It's a fun course that's a lot shorter than it looks.