COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

[Outspacer]

98% of the people in the netherlands that tested positive for covid have no symptoms or very mild symptoms. This includes people above 60 and people that are overweight. I'm willing to bet it goes to 99.5% when you exclude those 2. But just look online or on the news and you get the feeling that everybody is either sick or dying. Thats how you get the very insane stance where every person needs to get vaccinated and they meme'd "get vaxxed to protect others" into reallity.

Those stats sound about right - for a vaccinated population.

Before vaccination, about 15% to 20% of identified cases in NL were hospitalised, and 1% were dying.
(edited out dumb mistake, see later post for explanation and source of the revised numbers that follow)

Pre-vaccine: admissions 28th Dec, 302, cases Dec 23rd, about 10,000, gives 3%.
Post-vaccine: admissions Jul 27th, 83, cases Jul 19th, about 9,000, gives 0.9%.

Vaccines clearly work. Vaccines protect individuals and those they share space with. At the moment.

Even with very low rates of death from COVID currently, those deaths outnumber deaths from vaccination a thousandfold or more in absolute terms, and perhaps a million times once the sheer number of vaccinations given is taken into account (over 3 billion doses globally).

Information about new variants, long covid, etc, isn't part of some sinister manufactured narrative.

If a harmful variant comes along that evades the vaccines then we're back to more people dying and more lockdowns - nobody wants that.

Sorry if you feel it's all too much trouble to keep up with, I think we all feel that at times.

I for one am not prepared to enter into debate on mandatory vaccination with anyone who's starting point is making out that COVID is not as serious as it is. And you've been doing that for far longer than the vaccine has made it, at least for now, a relatively low threat.

 

[Nielsen]

That... is quite a statement. Nobody knows why? Really?

Really. Since 2006 I’ve lost one third of my close relatives to different types of cancer, and the causes were never pinpointed

And then?

Then cancer is what you need to worry about. To a large degree you can prevent contracting corona disease even without the vaccine. The latter is not even a guarantee you won’t, and statistically the average person is more likely to survive corona disease than nearly every type of cancer.

This is also quite the statement. What policies are authoritarian, and how are they a by-product of vaccines?

See the articles I linked to just above. If a mayor can pull out cards like this without issue, then democratic values must have left the building.

 

[Danoff]

And I do take precautions, but excuse me for not loving the authoritarian policies being a by-product of the vaccines.

It's far easier to say that mask mandates and vaccination drives are the by-product of people who absolutely refuse to be personally responsible and take precautions to protect themselves and the public. The entire way it has been the same group that cries freedom who has demonstrated that they're fundamentally irresponsible. Direct your ire at those people.


Edit:

Also, just FYI, at least in the US, it was apparently the leading cause of death during the pandemic.

COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

Our numbers are starting to look great. Little over 600 people in hospital, little over 200 on the IC. Creeping towards a thousand confirmed cases a day. I won't say that the numbers are plummeting but especially the IC numbers are dropping fast. More than 12 million out of 17 have had at least...

www.gtplanet.net

 

[NLxAROSA]

98% of the people in the netherlands that tested positive for covid have no symptoms or very mild symptoms. This includes people above 60 and people that are overweight. I'm willing to bet it goes to 99.5% when you exclude those 2. But just look online or on the news and you get the feeling that everybody is either sick or dying. Thats how you get the very insane stance where every person needs to get vaccinated and they meme'd "get vaxxed to protect others" into reallity.

I always wonder how far they can push people? They've now sold people on the idea of vaccinating ages 12 to 18 and I'm sure the vaccine pimps will sell the idea of vaccinating kids under 12 the moment the next variant hits. Maybe after that comes monthly injections to "stop the spread"? Seems far fetched but nothing suprises me anymore. The narative changes every few months and people just go along with it. "2 weeks 2 flatten the curve", "people are dying!", "hospitals are running at full capacity!", "postive case numbers are going up!!!", "this variant is more dangerous than the previous variant!!" etc..

As for the long-term complications.. I would really like to see some actual studies with supported data that shows how big of a problem this really is. From what I've seen so far, all we have are surveys and some people in talk shows sharing their expierience.

Also, the people saying "you're not being forced to take it" are being extremely dishonest because they know exactly what is ment when people talk about the vaccine being forced on people.

Did they change the definition of healthy?

Fellow Dutchmen here. A couple of things.

1. The term 'vaccine pimp' is a term introduced in NL by antivaxx populist activist looney groups. If you're using that term then I will assume you are acting in bad faith. If you want to be taken seriously, drop the looney conspiracy nut lingo. But hey, if you bought into that ********, then I guess you've made up your mind already, haven't you?
2. Narrative changes because we were hit with an unknown virus of which we learnt more and more over time and the virus also changed over time, as did treatments and approaches. If you think that's strange, that's on you, because it's not. It's literally how science works.
3. My wife works in a hospital (heart ward). Both my neighbor and a close friend work at the lung ward. Hospitals WERE at full capacity (limited by staff, not actual beds) up to the point where my wife was sent home because they closed the heart ward to make room for COVID patients. They're currently looking at a 6-month backlog for non-COVID related (heart) surgeries/treatments. They were firmly in 'code red' (triage) at the time and almost went into 'code black' (which means triage is no longer sufficient). During that time, if you did not had COVID, but let's say cancer and your life expectancy was a tiny bit longer than that of a COVID patient, your treatment was put on hold/postponed. If they would have gone into code black, you would have not gotten treatment and all. And this was for cancer treatments! What do you think was the case for less life-threatening issues?

Maybe you don't believe any of it because you rather believe idiots like Viruswaarheid or other looney fringe groups. You don't want to hear the facts or play devils advocate all the time, then fine, go ahead. Just don't expect a willing ear from most of the population in NL; it looks like around 85% of eligible folks had their first or both shots. If you choose to ignore science and rather follow the looney groups, then go ahead, but don't complain that you will be treated like an outcast.

BTW, I'm all up for opening up the country because of the high vaccination grade. If you're not vaccinated and end up on ICU, it's your own choice.

 

[Famine]

Really. Since 2006 I’ve lost one third of my close relatives to different types of cancer, and the causes were never pinpointed

That's absolutely irrelevant. We know what the processes that cause cancer are; the claim that "nobody knows" is so far out there it's incredible you'd even contemplate posting it.

Furthermore, the point was that you cannot spread cancer (and usually unknowingly at that), but you very much can spread a deadly communicable disease like COVID-19.

Then cancer is what you need to worry about.

Sounds like fear to me, especially as you think nobody knows what causes it: fear of the unknown.

See the articles I linked to just above. If a mayor can pull out cards like this without issue, then democratic values must have left the building.

That's not what authoritarianism is. Authoritarianism would be mandating you wear a mask at all times, including in your own home, not "if you choose to do [leisure activity], you must use [this protection]". Authoritarian policies are implemented on your existence, not on your choices.

I'd very much like to see it left up to individual businesses of course, but the fact is there's a sufficiently large population who would choose to go to a business that openly flouts all sense because they think COVID is a conspiracy, or isn't real, or vaccines cause autism, or 5G, or CHAIYNA, or any one of the thousands of absolutely sausage-brained ideas floating around at the moment, and they will become spreaders, infecting those who don't frequent those businesses.

They literally become WMDs through their own stupidity, and not even the most liberal or libertarian among us think privately owned WMDs are a wonderful idea, much less walking through the streets with them.

That's why these policies become a necessary evil: people acting like the most deadly, most transmissible disease* is nothing. They've also been around for about 18 months now, so they're hardly a "by-product of vaccines"; vaccines are slowly providing articifically acquired herd-immunity, which is another aspect of protection from it (though the same morons who think facemasks are "slave muzzles" are dodging it, providing reservoirs for infection and mutation), and are a by-product of not wanting mask mandates, lockdowns, self-isolation, alcohol gel, supermarket queues, and so on, to not be the norm for the rest of time.


*It's neither the most deadly nor the most transmissible, but it's the deadliest that's as transmissible and the most transmissible that's as deadly; and deaths are a fraction of the impact it has.

 

[Danoff]

"Mask up to keep it up."

"Mask up to keep it up": Preliminary evidence of the association between erectile dysfunction and COVID-19 - PubMed

On top of well-described pathophysiological mechanisms, there is preliminary evidence in a real-life population of ED as a risk factor of developing COVID-19 and possibly occurring as a consequence of COVID-19. Universal vaccination against the COVID-19 and the personal protective equipment...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Maybe this will convince some of the holdouts.

 

[ImaRobot]

I dread to think where it will end if people just blindly accept stuff like this. Media and politicians have manipulated the majority to be scared of a disease. Wake up and direct your fears at cancer instead.

Ironically, it's people with this mindset that we're in a predicament like this in the first place.

 

[UKMikey]

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/axios-ipsos-coronavirus-index

 

[TB]

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/axios-ipsos-coronavirus-index

View attachment 1072167

If 10% of the unvaccinated blame... themselves, sounds like they should get vaccinated to help fix the problem.

 

[UKMikey]

If 10% of the unvaccinated blame... themselves, sounds like they should get vaccinated to help fix the problem.

I'm guessing there's a minority of unvaccinated who are still waiting for a scheduled shot which makes up some of those numbers. I agree that 10% sounds suspiciously high though.

 

[Danoff]

If 10% of the unvaccinated blame... themselves, sounds like they should get vaccinated to help fix the problem.

I'm guessing there's a minority of unvaccinated who are still waiting for a scheduled shot which makes up some of those numbers. I agree that 10% sounds suspiciously high though.

I think some of the unvaccinated have had covid. So a portion of that group blame themselves but think there's nothing to be done. Another portion would not blame themselves because they think there's nothing to be done, but still blame the unvaccinated.

Then there's my Dad. Who is unvaccinated, had covid, and blames illegal immigration and biden for delta.

 

[TB]

Then there's my Dad. Who is unvaccinated, had covid

I don't know him personally but there's someone that does work for the campus that is on his second bout of Covid and also has pneumonia.

 

[Danoff]

I don't know him personally but there's someone that does work for the campus that is on his second bout of Covid and also has pneumonia.

He's old and obese. It hit him pretty hard the first go-around. He's also an anti-masker and lives in Texas (big spike there right now). I expect to hear that he has delta any day now. Not to worry though, when that does happen, he's told me he will fire every doctor that refuses to give him hydrochloroquin until he can find one or obtain it illegally online. So he'll be good.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Those stats sound about right - for a vaccinated population.

Before vaccination, about 15% to 20% of identified cases in NL were hospitalised, and 1% were dying.

Can I get a source for that? According to your numbers, 280.000 people in who tested positive for corona were hospitalised going by 15%. That number is nowhere close to the 72.128 reported here. This of course means that I was of by about 2%, but I went by the statistics provided by the RIVM in june 2020. This was before vaccination started.. So by your logic, we are doing worse now with vaccinations than before..

Fellow Dutchmen here. A couple of things.

1. The term 'vaccine pimp' is a term introduced in NL by antivaxx populist activist looney groups. If you're using that term then I will assume you are acting in bad faith. If you want to be taken seriously, drop the looney conspiracy nut lingo. But hey, if you bought into that ********, then I guess you've made up your mind already, haven't you?

Vaccine pimp (prikpooier) accurately describes a person ignorant to sollutions other then vaccince for this ugh pandemic. Sietske Bergsma did an excellent job with coining that phrase.

2. Narrative changes because we were hit with an unknown virus of which we learnt more and more over time and the virus also changed over time, as did treatments and approaches. If you think that's strange, that's on you, because it's not. It's literally how science works.

Narrative changes because previous narrative got debunked. Restrictions were tied to hospitalisations but when hospitalisations dropped the switch was made to cases. (one example).

3. My wife works in a hospital (heart ward). Both my neighbor and a close friend work at the lung ward. Hospitals WERE at full capacity (limited by staff, not actual beds) up to the point where my wife was sent home because they closed the heart ward to make room for COVID patients. They're currently looking at a 6-month backlog for non-COVID related (heart) surgeries/treatments. They were firmly in 'code red' (triage) at the time and almost went into 'code black' (which means triage is no longer sufficient). During that time, if you did not had COVID, but let's say cancer and your life expectancy was a tiny bit longer than that of a COVID patient, your treatment was put on hold/postponed. If they would have gone into code black, you would have not gotten treatment and all. And this was for cancer treatments! What do you think was the case for less life-threatening issues?

Where did I deny hospitals were running at full capacity? This is what happens when you run health care like an exclusive restaurant. We had capacity issues in past flu seasons and that was before Slotervaart closed. The population is growing (yet aging) but capacity in hospitals went down. This is not a COVID issue. This is a mismanagement issue.

Maybe you don't believe any of it because you rather believe idiots like Viruswaarheid or other looney fringe groups. You don't want to hear the facts or play devils advocate all the time, then fine, go ahead. Just don't expect a willing ear from most of the population in NL; it looks like around 85% of eligible folks had their first or both shots.

Do you really want to talk about the facts? Or do you only want to talk about your facts? I'd really like to have a normal discussion about health care and people general health. Why can't we have a normal discussion about the people occupying ICU beds from COVID? Who are they? And why makes asking a question like that someone looney?

If you choose to ignore science and rather follow the looney groups, then go ahead, but don't complain that you will be treated like an outcast.

Trust the science intensifies.. People saying this have no problem ignoring the science when it doesn't fit their angst narrative. I'm sure there must be more to beating COVID then just vaccination? Where is the science explaining kids under 12 need to get vaccinated to beat COVID. Most healthy people under 60 (and alot of people older then 60) can fight of COVID just fine. The data shows this to be true. 1.87 mil. people in the Netherlands were infected with covid. About 72 thousand of them had to go to a hospital and about 18 thousand have died (majority 80+ followed 70+).

Source

BTW, I'm all up for opening up the country because of the high vaccination grade. If you're not vaccinated and end up on ICU, it's your own choice.

Now you're acting like COVID is Ebola. The data shows that a huge majority of the people infected have minor symptoms or no symptoms at all. Please show me the data where young healthy people are getting sick by crazy numbers and crowding hospitals. Data, not some anti-vaxx influencer that landed in the hospital after licking a public toilet bowl and getting COVID from it. Actual data that justify the fear. Not anecdotal stories of you knowing a person that got really sick or died. Actual data justifying the fear and the restrictions that come with it.

 

[Outspacer]

Can I get a source for that? According to your numbers, 280.000 people in who tested positive for corona were hospitalised going by 15%. That number is nowhere close to the 72.128 reported here. This of course means that I was of by about 2%, but I went by the statistics provided by the RIVM in june 2020. This was before vaccination started.. So by your logic, we are doing worse now with vaccinations than before..

Sorry, my bad, I'll correct my post. (I somehow used the number in hospital and not the daily admissions. The remainder of the post will still stand).

The comparison I'll make, since it's like-for-like, is to compare a peak in confirmed cases to the corresponding peak in hospitalisations, using the 7-day averages from the dashboard.

Pre-vaccine: admissions 28th Dec, 302, cases Dec 23rd, about 10,000, gives 3%.
Post-vaccine: admissions Jul 27th, 83, cases Jul 19th, about 9,000, gives 0.9%.

So that in itself is a clear difference, but it's not the whole story. Even if vaccines only gave the 3x protection from hospitalisation that one might naively assume from those %, we'd expect to see 3x more unvaccinated than vaccinated going into hospital. From various reports, we know it's far higher than that, but I'll leave that point to one side. Instead, we can take the naive route and say that of those 83 statistically at most about 21 (a quarter) were vaccinated. Therefore remaining unvaccinated 62 could likewise be reduced to about 15, if they were vaccinated, thus more than halving the overall number being admitted - which makes that 0.9% actually 0.4%. But as said, reports from various countries suggest it's far better than that, with the vast majority of admissions being unvaccinated.

The number of deaths appears to have been reduced by an even greater amount, so much that it may be virtually impossible to identify the peak from the latest wave (currently averaging 4 per day). However, it's too early to say. In Jan, it was about 100 a day, roughly 1% of confirmed cases, and plain to see.

The other elephant in the room, which I'm sure you'd note if I didn't, is that 'confirmed cases' isn't accurate; it's way below the real number, and that affects the % calculated above. There are limits on how far out it can be though, given the cross-checking we have with antibody surveys and randomised testing. Every time I've checked on this with the UK data (since adequate testing was in place) it's been less than double. Comparing the RIVM June 2020 figure from antibody testing of 1.5% to the 3% I got above is about double, which is plausible if testing in NL is less extensive than in the UK. (Of course, since it's a survey, the estimate of how many had had COVID has its own limits on accuracy).

The RIVM study was most useful back when there wasn't sufficient testing. Now testing is in place and giving consistent results, and we have two peaks of cases of similar size that can be compared with the only major difference being the vaccine, that's our best data. The amount of daily testing varies a bit over time (far more in NL than UK), but is actually at about the same level during the peaks I used (if anything it's less now than in Dec/Jan, meaning more cases are missed, and current admissions are an even smaller %).

 

[NLxAROSA]

Vaccine pimp (prikpooier) accurately describes a person ignorant to sollutions other then vaccince for this ugh pandemic. Sietske Bergsma did an excellent job with coining that phrase.

Ah there it is. Bergsma: a well-known alt-right nut job, fake news poster and populist. For the non-NL folks: this is like listing Alex Jones as a source.

Where did I deny hospitals were running at full capacity?

You mentioned it as part of a, according to your own words 'debunked narrative'. It's not debunked at all, it was dealt with (barely) and the situation changed afterwards. Vaccines really turned the table on the pandemic.

Now you're acting like COVID is Ebola. The data shows that a huge majority of the people infected have minor symptoms or no symptoms at all. Please show me the data where young healthy people are getting sick by crazy numbers and crowding hospitals. Data, not some anti-vaxx influencer that landed in the hospital after licking a public toilet bowl and getting COVID from it. Actual data that justify the fear. Not anecdotal stories of you knowing a person that got really sick or died. Actual data justifying the fear and the restrictions that come with it.

What are you arguing with? I said they should lift all restrictions as vaccination grade is high enough. I don't wish anyone harm, but I honestly don't give a **** about what happens to antivaxxers.

 

[McLaren]

Did they change the definition of healthy?

"They are younger — many are in their 20s and 30s, some even in their teens — and they appear to be much sicker than those who flooded hospitals in the early months of the pandemic".

The narative changes every few months and people just go along with it. "2 weeks 2 flatten the curve", "people are dying!", "hospitals are running at full capacity!", "postive case numbers are going up!!!", "this variant is more dangerous than the previous variant!!" etc..

This is the stupidest ****ing argument, right on par with normal anti-vaxx talking points. The narrative isn't "changing" if those last 4 statements are happening simultaneously. The last one is a result of people like you deciding to become a virologist over night from YouTube, so you know better & the disease mutates further.

At this point, you're basically going full Darwinism, and I completely agree with NLxAROSA's last comment.

This was last week:

De Blasio mandates Covid-19 vaccinations or weekly testing for entire NYC municipal work force, including teachers and police | CNN

New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio said Monday that he's expanding the city's Covid-19 mandate to require the entire municipal workforce to get vaccinated or start weekly testing by September 13.

edition.cnn.com

This was yesterday:

N.Y.C. will require workers and customers show proof of at least one dose for indoor dining and other activities. (Published 2021)

“If you want to participate in our society fully, you’ve got to get vaccinated,” Mayor Bill de Blasio said. “It’s time.”

www.nytimes.com

Nothing provides information better than linking me a paywall NYT article.

Edit* Now that I've had time to read the story through other means, it is surprising to see a city going that route. The article does bring out an important point that black and latino communities will suffer a bit as vaccines in those areas are lower. However, this is an interesting point shared:

An even bigger push toward mandates could happen by the end of the month. The Food and Drug Administration has sped up its timetable for approving Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine, possibly by September. The three vaccines currently in use in the United States have been administered under an emergency authorization.

"They're not FDA-approved!" is a huge argument made against getting vaccinated. The article states the enforcement doesn't start til' mid-September. I'll be interested in seeing what excuses come up then after the FDA approves Pfizer.

I dread to think where it will end if people just blindly accept stuff like this. Media and politicians have manipulated the majority to be scared of a disease. Wake up and direct your fears at cancer instead.

1. More of that big brain mindset. Stop being afraid of diseases ya'll.
2. Cancer isn't contagious. That's also whataboutism.

 

[Outspacer]

Ebola
Status: prior epidemic
Seriously affected countries: 4
Cases: < 100,000
Deaths: < 20,000

COVID
Status: global pandemic
Seriously affected countries: > 190
Cases: > 200,000,000
Deaths: > 4,250,000

COVID may only kill an estimated 1% of unvaccinated people, but boy does it more than make up for that by getting around!

... I honestly don't give a **** about what happens to antivaxxers.

Likewise, but sadly they'll take those they instilled fear of vaccines into and people with dodgy immune systems down with them.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Sorry, my bad, I'll correct my post. (I somehow used the number in hospital and not the daily admissions. The remainder of the post will still stand).

The comparison I'll make, since it's like-for-like, is to compare a peak in confirmed cases to the corresponding peak in hospitalisations, using the 7-day averages from the dashboard.

Pre-vaccine: admissions 28th Dec, 302, cases Dec 23rd, about 10,000, gives 3%.
Post-vaccine: admissions Jul 27th, 83, cases Jul 19th, about 9,000, gives 0.9%.

So that in itself is a clear difference, but it's not the whole story. Even if vaccines only gave the 3x protection from hospitalisation that one might naively assume from those %, we'd expect to see 3x more unvaccinated than vaccinated going into hospital. From various reports, we know it's far higher than that, but I'll leave that point to one side. Instead, we can take the naive route and say that of those 83 statistically at most about 21 (a quarter) were vaccinated. Therefore remaining unvaccinated 62 could likewise be reduced to about 15, if they were vaccinated, thus more than halving the overall number being admitted - which makes that 0.9% actually 0.4%. But as said, reports from various countries suggest it's far better than that, with the vast majority of admissions being unvaccinated.

The number of deaths appears to have been reduced by an even greater amount, so much that it may be virtually impossible to identify the peak from the latest wave (currently averaging 4 per day). However, it's too early to say. In Jan, it was about 100 a day, roughly 1% of confirmed cases, and plain to see.

The other elephant in the room, which I'm sure you'd note if I didn't, is that 'confirmed cases' isn't accurate; it's way below the real number, and that affects the % calculated above. There are limits on how far out it can be though, given the cross-checking we have with antibody surveys and randomised testing. Every time I've checked on this with the UK data (since adequate testing was in place) it's been less than double. Comparing the RIVM June 2020 figure from antibody testing of 1.5% to the 3% I got above is about double, which is plausible if testing in NL is less extensive than in the UK. (Of course, since it's a survey, the estimate of how many had had COVID has its own limits on accuracy).

The RIVM study was most useful back when there wasn't sufficient testing. Now testing is in place and giving consistent results, and we have two peaks of cases of similar size that can be compared with the only major difference being the vaccine, that's our best data. The amount of daily testing varies a bit over time (far more in NL than UK), but is actually at about the same level during the peaks I used (if anything it's less now than in Dec/Jan, meaning more cases are missed, and current admissions are an even smaller %).

Sorry for not responding to everyting in your reply to me (I've red it all) but I have to keep it short. I can agree vaccination can have a positive effect on hospital admissions. I mostly believe vaccination is a good thing but they need to be usefull to the person getting it. I just don't understand this push for 100% vaccination of the population while a great number of people are able to fight of COVID on their own. You must agree that the data supports this right?

I think I've said it before in this thread, but the only good data we have is death by age. I would really like to have more data on hospitalisations by age groups, weight and underlying conditions. I think it's very important to know these things with the restrictions we have been seeing.

Not disagreeing on the data, just have a different conclusion.

Ah there it is. Bergsma: a well-known alt-right nut job, fake news poster and populist. For the non-NL folks: this is like listing Alex Jones as a source.

I'll bite. What makes Bergsma an alt-righter? How does she compare to Alex Jones? And by the way: I did not list her as a source. Her discription of Hugo de Jonge as a vaccine pimp is accurate because that is what he does. He sells vaccine's as the only solution to COVID.

You mentioned it as part of a, according to your own words 'debunked narrative'. It's not debunked at all, it was dealt with (barely) and the situation changed afterwards. Vaccines really turned the table on the pandemic.

The narrative that got debunked was COVID being the sole reason that hospitals were running at full capacity while ignoring the impacts politics have had on our health care system.

What are you arguing with? I said they should lift all restrictions as vaccination grade is high enough. I don't wish anyone harm, but I honestly don't give a **** about what happens to antivaxxers.

Very nice of you.

"They are younger — many are in their 20s and 30s, some even in their teens — and they appear to be much sicker than those who flooded hospitals in the early months of the pandemic".

This is the stupidest ****ing response I have ever seen, right on par with other baseless claims without supported data..

This is the stupidest ****ing argument, right on par with normal anti-vaxx talking points. The narrative isn't "changing" if those last 4 statements are happening simultaneously. The last one is a result of people like you deciding to become a virologist over night from YouTube, so you know better & the disease mutates further.

oh..

At this point, you're basically going full Darwinism, and I completely agree with NLxAROSA's last comment.

Good points man Great effort, you have me a 100% convinced and I will change my ways. My new motto is "Get vaxxed or die".

Ebola
Status: prior epidemic
Seriously affected countries: 4
Cases: < 100,000
Deaths: < 20,000

COVID
Status: global pandemic
Seriously affected countries: > 190
Cases: > 200,000,000
Deaths: > 4,250,000

COVID may only kill an estimated 1% of unvaccinated people, but boy does it more than make up for that by getting around!

Is this really a fair comparison? Maybe you have the data, but I have a feeling that Ebola hits harder through the age range than COVID.

 

[Jezza819]

What a meathead.

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/i...-covid-positive-regret-not-getting-vaccinated

DeChambeau added: "Now as time goes on, if it [the vaccine] is mainstream, really, really mainstream, then yeah."

Really, really mainstream?!?! How much more mainstream does he want it to be?

 

[McLaren]

This is the stupidest ****ing response I have ever seen, right on par with other baseless claims without supported data..

You can literally be given all the data & articles that disprove your statements, and you'll just scroll by/ignore it because you've already done so repeatedly in this thread despite others providing the data time-and-time again.

Good points man Great effort, you have me a 100% convinced and I will change my ways. My new motto is "Get vaxxed or die".

At this point, I literally don't care if you don't. Hope you don't end up another casualty of the leopard, but I'm not shedding any sympathy either.

 

[VolkswagenX]

You can literally be given all the data & articles that disprove your statements, and you'll just scroll by/ignore it because you've already done so repeatedly in this thread despite others providing the data time-and-time again.

Ah, more baseless claims and lies. Maybe you should try sticking to the point instead of making baseless accusations or show proof!

At this point, I literally don't care if you don't. Hope you don't end up another casualty of the leopard, but I'm not shedding any sympathy either.

No, at this point you can't back up your points with actual data to disprove what I've said. The chance of me becoming a casualty of anything COVID related is near zero. You can't disprove my claim with any data so you have to go for childish insults.

 

[McLaren]

Ah, more baseless claims and lies. Maybe you should try sticking to the point instead of making baseless accusations or show proof!

No, at this point you can't back up your points with actual data to disprove what I've said. The chance of me becoming a casualty of anything COVID related is near zero. You can't disprove my claim with any data so you have to go for childish insults.

I literally posted articles on the last page that disprove your claim about "the narrative is changing". People from their teens to their 30s are generally some of the most healthy folks around, and completely shows the virus has mutated from affecting only the elderly and at risk. I literally posted an article of a Rep. who thought that & he caught it.

"The chance of me becoming a casualty". Hey Neilsen, here's what I was referencing earlier. "It won't happen to me" is exactly what tons of people thought, pure Darwinism.

This entire thread is nearly 350 pages of cited information and you repeatedly come in here ignoring all of it. There is zero point in wasting any time posting more proof because you literally ignore it.

 

[VolkswagenX]

I literally posted articles on the last page that disprove your claim about "the narrative is changing". People from their teens to their 30s are generally some of the most healthy folks around, and completely shows the virus has mutated from affecting only the elderly and at risk. I literally posted an article of a Rep. who thought that & he caught it.

I could have missed it or maybe your posts are just not that important to me? Next time you should ad those links in a response to me..

This entire thread is nearly 350 pages of cited information and you repeatedly come in here ignoring all of it. There is zero point in wasting any time posting more proof because you literally ignore it.

You are a waste of time.

Same point as before.. What am I exactly ignoring? Link it or stop wasting your time responding to me. I've adressed my points multiple times and nobody as far as I know refuted any of it. Think I'm wrong? Show me. What you're doing know is making a claim and when someone calls you out you just tell m to google it.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Likewise, but sadly they'll take those they instilled fear of vaccines into and people with dodgy immune systems down with them.

We can only educate them as best as we can. But it's hard with all the detractors, and in the end it's their own choice. I don't have the illusion that I'll convert any of the hardcore antivaxxers, nor do I have the intention/willingness. As Scott Seis mentioned "You want me to argue with you? I'm not on the debate team. This isn't mock trial".

 

[Danoff]

maybe your posts are just not that important to me?

Not an awesome way to convince someone that you're ready to take them seriously and have an earnest conersation.

 

[McLaren]

I could have missed it or maybe your posts are just not that important to me? Next time you should ad those links in a response to me..

What am I exactly ignoring?

Explanation given. Done.

Next time you should ad those links in a response to me..

Edit*

You want to cry about lying, and you're sitting here proving that you ignore information from a post you literally quoted and responded to, but cut out everything.

 

[sirjim73]

Putting the ill in Illinois...

And the annoy-ed in the rest of us.

At present we don't know of any mechanism by which you can either catch cancer or give cancer to your friends and relatives.

Taking precautions not to spread or contract a contact-spread disease - the deadliest* disease that is this easily spread, and the most easily spread disease that is this deadly* - is not "fear" or being "scared" any more than wearing a johnny is, and that cuts out well over 90% of transmission when properly used too.


*And again, death is only about 30% of the picture here

To be fair, I have the same issues with masks as I do with Johnny's. I just can never find one that's big enough.

 

[Outspacer]

Sorry for not responding to everyting in your reply to me (I've red it all) but I have to keep it short. I can agree vaccination can have a positive effect on hospital admissions. I mostly believe vaccination is a good thing but they need to be usefull to the person getting it. I just don't understand this push for 100% vaccination of the population while a great number of people are able to fight of COVID on their own. You must agree that the data supports this right?

I think I've said it before in this thread, but the only good data we have is death by age. I would really like to have more data on hospitalisations by age groups, weight and underlying conditions. I think it's very important to know these things with the restrictions we have been seeing.

Not disagreeing on the data, just have a different conclusion.

Vaccination is a statistical thing, not a selfish personal choice. If everybody thought it was someone else's job to take it, we'd be even more ****ed than we have been.

As my post showed, we could easily still halve the burden on hospitals from COVID if more people were vaccinated. Hospitals really need a break from it, and then they're still faced with catching up on a huge backlog of non-emergency care. Quite simply, the more people are vaccinated, the better it gets in hospitals.

In England, the death rate for people aged 20-24 has so far been 3.9 per 100,000 people. However, we don't have a reasonable data source for age-specific number of cases to compare that against. We could guess that about 25% of that group have had COVID (it's probably not quite that many, but it'll do), in which case multiply those numbers by 4, so 15.6/100k. So even taking one of the youngest groups, we get to a risk of death from COVID of about 1 in 6410. The risk, obviously, grows for each age band above that, almost doubling for each 5 year band. If you're, say, a cock-sure 33 year old, about 1 in 2080. Not great. (TBH, worse than I thought, so I hope I haven't made a mistake again!)

The data supports saying that Pfizer (being what you'll likely be offered) is far safer than catching COVID, and that's certainly true for all adult ages.

Is this really a fair comparison? Maybe you have the data, but I have a feeling that Ebola hits harder through the age range than COVID.

That's the data as best I could find it without spending too much time on it. Deliberately used high estimates for Ebola (particularly for the cases, which may well be around 50,000) and low for COVID.

Put succintly, your chances of catching and dying of Ebola in NL are 0.00%. COVID killed more in a fortnight in January in the UK than Ebola ever has. COVID has probably killed more 20 year olds than all Ebola deaths. That Ebola hits more equally with age is irrelevant - given your age, we could adjust your chance to... um... 0.00%.

But you know what? If you do find yourself near an Ebola outbreak, you might be lucky enough to be offered the vaccine against it.

 

[TB]

I just don't understand this push for 100% vaccination of the population while a great number of people are able to fight of COVID on their own.

A couple of points.

1) I don't know of any country that is shooting for 100% of the population to be vaccinated. Although it would be nice if we could just be done with all of this.

2) Sure, a "great number" might be able to fight off Covid naturally on their own. Until they can't.

2a) What about the people they infect while they're asymptomatic? Or worse, symptomatic? I would feel absolutely horrible if my mom tested positive and there was a chance she got it from me.