COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

  • Thread starter baldgye
  • 13,234 comments
  • 552,111 views
No people allowed at the opening ceremony of the Olympics in Tokyo.

Except for members of the IOC, sponsors and other bobo's.

The Japanese medical world is urging to not have spectators at all, not even the Japanese themselves but as usual, the IOC probably has more to say than them.
 
Herd immunity per se is a really good idea - but it's how that is achieved is the issue.

Herd immunity via a thorough and effective vaccination programme is by far the safest approach. But the UK Government's current plan is to basically let the virus pick up the slack and achieve herd immunity through a hybrid of 'natural immunity' (i.e. people getting infected with the virus) and induced immunity (via vaccination/inoculation).

It's also a question of rates of infection. The UK Government seem resigned to the fact that they can't change the total number of people who end up getting the virus (even though many other countries seem to have managed to keep numbers much, much lower than we have...) and hence they only seek to avoid the worst-case scenario of infection rates becoming too high, as opposed to total infections. (Of course, it's really the number of hospitalisations that the Government is trying to keep from becoming too high, and hence they are now gambling that they can let infection rates soar without that hospitalisation rate becoming too much for the NHS to cope with.)

But very high infection numbers has a couple of major problems, not least the potential for new variants being generated in below herd-immunity population. Long COVID is also a massive problem that the Government don't even really seem to acknowledge exists yet, and the possible long-term health effects of infections that thus far have not presented any noticable symptoms (i.e. potential damage to tissues and organs that may manifest in serious problems further down the line) are also being largely dismissed.
Right now, the UK is in the same position as a general member of the public who has stopped taking their antibiotics before the end of the course because they feel better.

If you really wanted to run a large experiment to see how viruses mutate and adapt to vaccines, this is exactly how you would do it.
 
Editorial piece in today's Guardian sums up my thoughts well too:


At least Scotland is planning to keep the mask mandate in place, but it will still be (much) harder to enforce (i.e. by supermarket staff, people who work in public transport etc.) when England drop their mandate.

It seems so needless - a large gain for very little cost being scrapped in favour of a very costly setback which will only make a return to harsher restrictions more likely... seems utterly self-defeating and pointless - and as such, it bears the hallmarks of a policy designed by (and for) lockdown skeptics.
 
Last edited:
Of course I share concerns about variants and long covid, I just don't think yesterday's announcement makes the situation much worse than it already is. On the list of bad decisions (assuming they don't backtrack before next week) it ranks quite low - way behind failing to stop travel to/from India soon enough allowing 42k to travel in April, way behind removing masks in schools on 17th May, way behind going ahead with steps 2 and 3 on schedule - by dates not data. The real chance to prevent this wave was back in April, but even only delaying step 3 from May would've made a big difference to the R and hence the scale of the problem.

Delta Plus already exists and would be worse, but hasn't become dominant - presumably at least in part because it can't outcompete Delta. It's perhaps more likely that the next worrying variant arises in 40 to 65 year olds (almost all had AstraZeneca), and/or in young people who have only had one dose (of Pfizer), since neither group is well protected against Delta. Considering it still might not be able to outcompete Delta, I'd hazard a guess that the likely time for one to appear would be when Delta cases have fallen - exactly when we don't want it, in Autumn/Winter.

Related to that, we desperately need a variant-tweaked vaccine. I think the booster that will be given this Autumn will be something of a waste of time and money (and also deprives somewhere else from benefitting from those doses), except that there may be some use in giving a dose of Pfizer to those who've had AstraZeneca (if we haven't already got a Pfizer evading variant by then).

Long covid is already a real problem for about a million people according to the ONS data. There's some debate on whether all of those should really be counted as long covid, and it is a maximum figure since it's self-reported, but even half would still be a significant number. This wave, even if it remains mostly in young people, will likely add at least 100k more (much higher estimates are valid, but looking at worst-case).

---

On a different tack - but still another case of "things that could've been done but weren't" - there's a paper out studying the mechanism for AstraZeneca causing blood clots when accidentally injected into a blood vessel rather than muscle. Avoiding that happening is as simple as drawing back a little through the needle to check for blood before injecting ('aspirating') - a preventative measure that could've easily been recommended as soon as the blood clot cases first appeared. So there's a fair chance that not only could lives have been saved, but also that we needn't have stopped using AstraZeneca in younger people - something that has slowed our vaccine rollout by a month or two ('our' here meaning both UK and EU).

Looking back, I posted John Campbell's video on aspirating way back in March. (The Danes recommended aspirating, but then stopped using AZ - so we didn't get any data out of it). Here's his video in response to the recent paper (rather long, clicking through to youtube and reading the bullet points in the description is enough for a quick overview):

 
Last edited:
I know, crazy isn't it? As a result of this crazy policy, Australia has had fewer positive test results in grand total than the UK will have every day by the middle of this week (again!), and yet we get a GP and they don't! Indeed, Australia is a rubbish 124th in the COVID league table, while we're 7th. The UK could practically fill Albert Park with our COVID dead for both qualifying and the race, while Australia's COVID dead could fit into Wimbledon's Centre Court 16 times over... so yeh, Australia are really making a mess of things!!
More than 6,000 COVID tests were done in the paddock over the weekend and one came back positive, and since mixing between people inside and outside the paddock on Grand Prix weekends is supposed to be strictly controlled it really is hard to see them as a threat.
 
a large gain for very little cost
We've dropped our mask mandate and lifted most of the other restrictions and whadoyouknow?? Cases doubled in a week. 4208 v 8541 this week.

4aaW5ZT.gif


a2Zb4y9_460s.jpg


Shocked Futurama GIF


Shocked Oh My God GIF
Oh My God Wow GIF
Omg GIF
 
Last edited:
Wonder why covid cases are flat in the US, so far. Most states lifted mandates about a month or more ago. Does it mean people were just not respecting the rules for a while now? Wouldn't be surprised. At least large gatherings were happening here for a while now.
 
We've dropped our mask mandate and lifted most of the other restrictions and whadoyouknow?? Cases doubled in a week. 4208 v 8541 this week.
Netherlands? Can't seem to find those figures... but the ones I found on the dashboard are far worse rise: 535 to 2253 (29th June to 6th July).

Hide Reaction GIF by flor


Clearly not good timing, what with Delta starting to take over from Alpha there.
 
The Delta Variant is in full force now and I suspect within a week, it'll really be hitting hard with all the Fourth of July parties that went on.

Three states (South Carolina, Nebraska, and Arkansas) all have over a 100% increase in cases. Arkansas also has the third-worst vaccination rate at just 30% of its population. Florida is experiencing the most cases per day with an average of about 2,200 (63% increase) and it's also leading with the highest number of hospitalizations and deaths as well. [Source]

This is going to get much, much worse before it even thinks about getting better. Fortunately, the three vaccines in the US do provide a decent amount of protection against the Delta Variant so those of us who are vaccinated should be OK and if we do get sick, the risk of hospitalization and death is very low.
 
We've dropped our mask mandate and lifted most of the other restrictions and whadoyouknow?? Cases doubled in a week. 4208 v 8541 this week.

4aaW5ZT.gif


a2Zb4y9_460s.jpg


Shocked Futurama GIF


Shocked Oh My God GIF
Oh My God Wow GIF
Omg GIF
I agree with beeing "shocked" but for different reasons. More young healthy (free of symptoms) people went out to get a test so they could go to a party. Imagine feeling pretty ok only to find out you have a virus that shares the same status as Ebola and now you can't go to a party:(

Covid parties.jpg
 
Last edited:
I agree with beeing "shocked" but for different reasons. More young healthy (free of symptoms) people went out to get a test so they could go to a party. Imagine feeling pretty ok only to find out you have a virus that shares the same status as Ebola and now you can't go to a party:(
Better to know than to go to the party.
 
I agree with beeing "shocked" but for different reasons. More young healthy (free of symptoms) people went out to get a test so they could go to a party. Imagine feeling pretty ok only to find out you have a virus that shares the same status as Ebola and now you can't go to a party:(
No, it's not simply because of increased testing finding asymptomatics.

Testing increased by maybe 25% over the last week but cases by massively more, and the % of tests that return positive is also massively up. To be able to do that with only 25% extra testing would mean some ridiculous proportion of the extra tests came back positive. Which they clearly didn't, as many people still got their access granted to party or whatever.

Also, NL has been doing testing for access for some time now; it's not entirely new.
 
Last edited:
Sitrep:

I accompanied my parents to the vaccination site this morning, as advised by the nurse on duty yesterday. Arrived just past seven, and what do you know, the three waiting rooms were already full, with a queue already forming outside.

Still, we were early enough to get the allocation of Pfizer shots.

Then we waited.

Waited...

Waited some more...

And then, more waiting...

By the time we got back home, it was past eleven. The site itself was about ten, fifteen minutes' drive away, so we spent over three and a half hours there.

😖

Their next appointment is in the middle of August, about six weeks away. Still, their first jabs done, so that's at least one less worry in my mind...

Oh, and no side effects for my parents yet. Hope it stays that way.
 
No, it's not simply because of increased testing finding asymptomatics.

Testing increased by maybe 25% over the last week but cases by massively more, and the % of tests that return positive is also massively up. To be able to do that with only 25% extra testing would mean some ridiculous proportion of the extra tests came back positive. Which they clearly didn't, as many people still got their access granted to party or whatever.

Also, NL has been doing testing for access for some time now; it's not entirely new.
Are you saying that it's not possible for a 25% increase in testing to cause a more than 25% rise in cases? But it's not even that important. How many of thos 8000+ people are actually really sick? According to the very misleading piramide the RIVM released a while ago, 98% of the people who test positive have mild symptoms or no sympthoms at all.
RIVM.jpg

(original here)

Yes, we have a huge increase in cases, but the hosipitalisations dropped from 94 to 47 (From 17 to 7 in ICU) and deaths dropped from 15 to 13. (source)

Also, testing for acces at the scale it is at now only started a week ago and we just had our second weekend of testing at this scale.

I'm not worried about covid. I'm worried about my government that destroyed our health care in the last 15 years and is no blaming the population for them failing to handle the situation.
 
Last edited:
How many of thos 8000+ people are actually really sick? According to the very misleading piramide the released a while ago, 98% of the people who test positive have mild symptoms or no sympthoms at all.
All of them are sick. If you have COVID, then you have COVID, whether the symptoms are mild or severe.

While, yes, most people who contract COVID have relatively mild to moderate symptoms, the issue is if they go galavanting around without a mask on they're going to spread it to others who might not have a mild case. This is why places ditching the mask mandates is stupid. It's such an easy thing to do to greatly reduce the likelihood of infecting others. It also allows places to function somewhat normally.

The other thing to consider is the long-term effects of COVID. While you might have mild symptoms, we still don't know what will happen in the long term. There could be major issues down the line or there could be nothing at all. We're also not sure what the contributing factor is when it comes to people with long COVID either. Seemingly healthy people are struggling with symptoms for a year or more at this point and a sizeable portion of those who've had COVID also report long-term neurological and psychological effects.

At this point, everyone should be getting the vaccine, wearing a mask, or staying home if they want countries to lift lockdown measures. But due to misinformation surrounding vaccines, manipulation by the media to cause a panic, and sheer ignorance of people this isn't happening. The Delta Variant and whatever spawns from that is going to unleash hell on these people too, which I guess is a morbid version of Darwinism.
 
More than 6,000 COVID tests were done in the paddock over the weekend and one came back positive, and since mixing between people inside and outside the paddock on Grand Prix weekends is supposed to be strictly controlled it really is hard to see them as a threat.
It's a fair point, but I guess the question is whether it's really worth staging the race in front of zero fans and the additional risk of making an exception for the F1 entourage that would then raise pressure on the government to grant other exceptions.

Frankly, for the sake of a few more months of restrictions and a few major sporting events being cancelled, Australia are definitely well advised to be cautious in the extreme given their slow vaccination rollout. I have many friends in Australia and they seem to be doing just great, with nothing like the level of lockdown that we've already endured twice (almost 9 months so far of zero contact with anybody, and several more months of restricted access, even to our own families...).

Don't get me wrong, it's all relative and I know many, many people in Australia are making sacrifices too, but Australia's super-tough approach to COVID is keeping their daily lives FAR more open than here in the UK, with FAR fewer casualties too. 128,000 dead compared to 910... 910!! A million people with long term and possibly permanent injury... 9 months of total isolation, 640,000 children off school in England last week alone (!!)... I didn't even get to spend Xmas day, New Year or even my birthday with my family and ended up not seeing any of them in person for 10 months...

... but yeh, great that Silverstone is going ahead, I'm really looking forward to it.


(edit: moved from the F1 calendar thread to avoid derailing that thread)
 
Last edited:
Are you saying that it's not possible for a 25% increase in testing to cause a more than 25% rise in cases? But it's not even that important.
You thought it important enough to post! No, look at the numbers - I'm saying that it's impossible that about 4,000 extra tests found about 2,000 extra cases, for multiple days. That's roughly what you were claiming.
How many of thos 8000+ people are actually really sick? According to the very misleading piramide the RIVM released a while ago, 98% of the people who test positive have mild symptoms or no sympthoms at all.
Well you'll see I've made a few posts recently looking at this on the Scotland and UK data (Scotland because it's seems to be a little ahead), and not necessarily seeing it all as certain doom and gloom. I'd say the wave the UK is suffering with Delta is going to be repeated in NL, more or less.

So yeah, under 2% admissions is fine for now, not much problem. But it will increase when Delta fully takes over because it evades the vaccines to some extent - we're seeing more like 4% to 4.5% of detected cases needing hospital. Granted, some of that difference is down to who gets tested, but certainly not all (and UK does a LOT of testing).

If cases keep rising (which they will), what then? At some point the 2% of 2,500 a day becomes 2% of 80,000 a day - quite soon, around 50 days. We've seen in the UK that it can happily sustain an increase of >50%/week even with mask requirements etc in place. At that point there may well be a similar number going into hospital as the peak around Christmas/New Year when there were 'only' 13,000 cases a day.

At what point, if any, would you say restrictions of any kind are justified?
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Talking of percentages...
Of those .8% of vaccinated people who are dying from COVID, there's a strong possibility that most of them only had one dose instead of the two doses. I'm yet to see any indication at where I work of someone being hospitalized who had both doses.
 
Right now, the UK is in the same position as a general member of the public who has stopped taking their antibiotics before the end of the course because they feel better.

If you really wanted to run a large experiment to see how viruses mutate and adapt to vaccines, this is exactly how you would do it.
With regards to viruses adapting to vaccines - it's a complex area but a somewhat oversimplified truth would be to say that viruses don't typically adapt to vaccines. There is a common misconception that they do - probably based around the well understood concept of bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics. However, regardless of that, the more people the vaccine infects and replicates within, the more chance there is of a mutation.

The UK is about to become a trial case to see how well the three main vaccines hold up against a tide of infections. Cases are rising rapidly in the UK as the delta variant spreads. Thankfully so far it is not resulting in significant increases in serious illness or deaths.
 

FFS, NSW had an outbreak recently that leaked into pretty much every other state in the country (with the Delta variant), went into a half-arsed lockdown, and now they've just... given up??

I have family and friends who had to go through several months of lockdown in regional Victoria last year despite there being virtually no cases in my hometown, but it all paid off and Victoria dealt with their second wave. Now NSW goes through the same situation and gives up after two weeks???

The UK strat isn't going to work in Australia, absolutely 🤬-all people have been vaccinated so far. Well done NSW.
 

FFS, NSW had an outbreak recently that leaked into pretty much every other state in the country (with the Delta variant), went into a half-arsed lockdown, and now they've just... given up??

I have family and friends who had to go through several months of lockdown in regional Victoria last year despite there being virtually no cases in my hometown, but it all paid off and Victoria dealt with their second wave. Now NSW goes through the same situation and gives up after two weeks???

The UK strat isn't going to work in Australia, absolutely 🤬-all people have been vaccinated so far. Well done NSW.
To be fair, it was the question that referenced "give up" and the answer was warning people to comply with the lockdown. Not that I'd trust any politician to resist snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Vaccination in Aus is truly woeful, with more not due until October??!! That means no significant protection for most until next year :(
 
If that isn't enough to convince folks to take a second look at getting vaccinated, nothing will.
I think we both know that it won't be.

Vaccination in Aus is truly woeful, with more not due until October??!! That means no significant protection for most until next year
Hopefully it ends up being like it was for me - no real date in sight, only the possibility of sometime in July. Then all of a sudden I became eligible, then it opened up for my oldest son, then opened up for my youngest.

In the span of 2 or 3 months, we went from no idea when to all of us vaccinated.
 

FFS, NSW had an outbreak recently that leaked into pretty much every other state in the country (with the Delta variant), went into a half-arsed lockdown, and now they've just... given up??

I have family and friends who had to go through several months of lockdown in regional Victoria last year despite there being virtually no cases in my hometown, but it all paid off and Victoria dealt with their second wave. Now NSW goes through the same situation and gives up after two weeks???

The UK strat isn't going to work in Australia, absolutely 🤬-all people have been vaccinated so far. Well done NSW.
I think I've said this before, but I really can't understand why countries like Australia and NZ, who have done outstandingly well in controlling the pandemic thus far, haven't taken the window of opportunity they've created for themselves (at some considerable effort by the public) to vaccinate people much more quickly. I know it's not quite as simple as that, but the consequences are pretty obvious...

... most people I know (including professional virologists) are deeply skeptical of the UK's strategy, but even they concede that we're in a much better place because of our vaccine roll-out and hence can at least consider re-opening at this juncture, even though most (if not all) of my colleagues and friends think it is still several weeks too soon.

But re-opening like the UK (or even adopting the same laissez-faire 'personal responsibility' approach) while not having a large chunk of the population fully vaccinated is a very bad idea and it will almost certainly result in the same thing that's happened in the UK twice already - unacceptably high deaths rates and hospitals becoming overwhelmed rapidly, followed by a total national lockdown. In Australia's case, that would pretty much mean the entire last year and a half of off-and-on restrictions had literally been for nothing.
If that isn't enough to convince folks to take a second look at getting vaccinated, nothing will.
Ironically, the more people that get fully vaccinated, the more we can expect to see the % of people dying after both shots increasing, but I wouldn't be alarmed if this stat changes direction i.e. if, theoretically, 100% of the population were fully vaccinated, there will still be a few deaths but now 100% of deaths would be of fully vaccinated people.
 
Last edited:
... but yeh, great that Silverstone is going ahead, I'm really looking forward to it.
Whilst I personally couldn't give two ****'s about the place, and am angered that motorsport events that are more naturally distanced are still severely limited whilst Silverstone fills its grandstands, I was told last year by someone that works there, that they could only stand it last year thanks to (then) recent funding, and two years would wipe them out. I have no doubt (and to be fair, also no proof) that behind the scenes they were leveraging this fact hard with the government. Apparently MSV are fairly well funded, but we can only be thankful the likes of Thruxton, Knockhill and Croft are managing despite loosing out on their biggest ticket revenues last year.
 
TB
Hopefully it ends up being like it was for me - no real date in sight, only the possibility of sometime in July. Then all of a sudden I became eligible, then it opened up for my oldest son, then opened up for my youngest.

In the span of 2 or 3 months, we went from no idea when to all of us vaccinated.
Hopefully, but the US is locally manufacturing huge amounts of vaccine, while Aus isn't at all.
 
Back