COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

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What sort of country needs armed guards outside all shops to enforce the wearing of masks?

We have compulsory use of masks inside shops here in Spain. The tiny percentage of people who enter without one are politely reminded by the (unarmed) shop staff that they need one. They either have one, and put it on, or they leave quietly. They don’t pull out a gun and shoot the staff member in the head.

WTF has America become?

oh, and...
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Does your God also have you covered for cancer, or getting run over by a bus? ****wits.
God's what?.....
 
What sort of country needs armed guards outside all shops to enforce the wearing of masks?

We have compulsory use of masks inside shops here in Spain. The tiny percentage of people who enter without one are politely reminded by the (unarmed) shop staff that they need one. They either have one, and put it on, or they leave quietly. They don’t pull out a gun and shoot the staff member in the head.

WTF has America become?

So far it hasn't happened much in America either, it's not like people are going around shooting one another. We have our fair share of asshats but you're going to see that everywhere. I'm sure in Spain there are self entitled people that don't think they need to wear a mask.

My thing with armed guards was that if you wanted to stop or reduce violent interactions, you'd need someone to enforce it. That means either armed guards or posting police outside every business.

I think my original point has gotten lost. Essentially mask law are useless because they can't be adequately enforced. The onus ultimately falls to the business in every case. Instead of forcing a law, it should be up to the business to enact a policy. Not every business would require a mask and people who are anti-mask would have a place to go.
 
Essentially mask law are useless because they can't be adequately enforced. The onus ultimately falls to the business in every case. Instead of forcing a law, it should be up to the business to enact a policy. Not every business would require a mask and people who are anti-mask would have a place to go.

We have a mask law. I maybe see one security guard in the big supermarket... everywhere else, nothing. There are no confrontations... people understand why the law is there and abide by it.

I guess I shouldn’t be a surprise that people don’t in a country where some politicians are still proposing that this is all a big hoax to ruin Trump’s re-election chances... and Trump himself continuously tweets conspiracy theories on various topics.
 
We have a mask law. I maybe see one security guard in the big supermarket... everywhere else, nothing. There are no confrontations... people understand why the law is there and abide by it.

I guess I shouldn’t be a surprise that people don’t in a country where some politicians are still proposing that this is all a big hoax to ruin Trump’s re-election chances... and Trump himself continuously tweets conspiracy theories on various topics.

I have a really hard time believing there are zero confrontations in Spain, especially since two days ago there were massive protests where pictures show people ignoring the mask law: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52783936

People being reckless and going against the government is not solely an American thing, it happens everywhere.
 
People being reckless and going against the government is not solely an American thing, it happens everywhere.

The problem with people in America is not that they’re going AGAINST our reckless (and feckless) government, it’s that they’re going WITH it. Imagine an America, or any country, where the leader consistently, and in a timely manner, supported the advice of the qualified and experienced scientists instead of trying to undermine them.

Actually, we don’t have to imagine such countries, there are many of them

USA = 300 deaths per million population
.........
Australia = 4 deaths per million
New Zealand = 4 deaths per million
South Korea = 5 deaths per million
Japan = 6 deaths per million
 
I have a really hard time believing there are zero confrontations in Spain, especially since two days ago there were massive protests where pictures show people ignoring the mask law: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52783936

People being reckless and going against the government is not solely an American thing, it happens everywhere.

They were protesting, outside, in one city, incited by a far right party. This was a single event, not widespread across Spain, and as I said, I’ve not seen anyone entering a shop without a mask here in the south.

Meanwhile in America...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52795447

Doesn’t help when Trump’s medical people say one thing in the press conferences, then Trump incites people to ignore the guidance for political gain.

America is a mess.
 
The problem with people in America is not that they’re going AGAINST our reckless (and feckless) government, it’s that they’re going WITH it. Imagine an America, or any country, where the leader consistently, and in a timely manner, supported the advice of the qualified and experienced scientists instead of trying to undermine them.

Actually, we don’t have to imagine such countries, there are many of them

USA = 300 deaths per million population
.........
Australia = 4 deaths per million
New Zealand = 4 deaths per million
South Korea = 5 deaths per million
Japan = 6 deaths per million

I don't disagree, the leadership in America is bad.

They were protesting, outside, in one city, incited by a far right party. This was a single event, not widespread across Spain, and as I said, I’ve not seen anyone entering a shop without a mask here in the south.

Meanwhile in America...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52795447

Doesn’t help when Trump’s medical people say one thing in the press conferences, then Trump incites people to ignore the guidance for political gain.

America is a mess.

I don't disagree, America is a mess. That still doesn't mean it's the only country that's a mess though. There are protests going on all over the place, it's not exclusive to America like you seem to be suggesting.

And just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening. I don't see anyone being violent with store employees here, but it doesn't mean it's not happening.
 
That still doesn't mean it's the only country that's a mess though.

True. America is not alone in being a mess. I’m not alone in expecting a better performance than “mess”. What happened to “American Exceptionalism”? This performance doesn’t even approach the adjective “mediocre”.

America is in the WORST 6% of the countries of the world when measured by Deaths/Million.

The only “countries” which have a higher Active Cases per Million than the USA are Qatar (pop<3M), tiny San Marino and even tinier Vatican City.


Joey D, is this “good enough” for you? Really?

Today’s America is a pale shadow of the America I emigrated to (from Australia) 22 years ago. I was passionate about America back then. Had America descended into this kleptocratic, incompetent mess in the 90s, the thought of even visiting such a country would not have crossed my mind.
 
What's the latest word on whether the virus loses its potency in hot weather? Temps are (finally) rising in Canada & the north east US. Is this going to have an appreciable impact of the spread of Covid-19? Conversely, is the cooling of southern hemisphere countries going to lead to an escalation of cases there?
 
True. America is not alone in being a mess. I’m not alone in expecting a better performance than “mess”. What happened to “American Exceptionalism”? This performance doesn’t even approach the adjective “mediocre”.

America is in the WORST 6% of the countries of the world when measured by Deaths/Million.

The only “countries” which have a higher Active Cases per Million than the USA are Qatar (pop<3M), tiny San Marino and even tinier Vatican City.


Joey D, is this “good enough” for you? Really?

Today’s America is a pale shadow of the America I emigrated to (from Australia) 22 years ago. I was passionate about America back then. Had America descended into this kleptocratic, incompetent mess in the 90s, the thought of even visiting such a country would not have crossed my mind.

I don't think I understand, where did I say it's good enough? I don't think what's going on in the US is good enough at all. I fully agree the US is doing poorly at managing the pandemic and it comes from ineffective leadership at the federal level. States are doing a better job, but not every state is run by someone who competent. All I'm saying is that while the US is doing poorly, it's not the only country doing poorly by any measure. There are several countries that are failing.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting your data from, but in terms of cases per million, there are other countries ahead of the US. This shows the US has 4,964 cases per million. Singapore has 5,404 per million, Spain has 5,042, Iceland has 5,286, and Qatar has a whopping 15,172 per million. In terms of mortality, this shows several countries ahead of the US, with Belgium being the worst at 812 compared to the US's 298 per million.

Active cases are really hard to judge though since not every country counts active cases the same way. Here in the US, it even varies state by state. Utah's health department says a person is no longer active after 21 days and there's no death certificate.

What's the latest word on whether the virus loses its potency in hot weather? Temps are (finally) rising in Canada & the north east US. Is this going to have an appreciable impact of the spread of Covid-19? Conversely, is the cooling of southern hemisphere countries going to lead to an escalation of cases there?

Given how the virus is playing havoc with several countries in the deserted part of the middle east, I'm not sure the virus really dies down in hot weather. It's currently averaging well over 100 degrees in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and they're still seeing cases.
 
My data source is https://srv1.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I use "Active Cases" rather than "Cases" because some countries peaked long ago. In such countries, Active Cases have dropped to less than 10% of total Cases. To include all those cases which have been resolved long ago is no longer relevant. Of course in the USA we are still seeing Active Cases rising, which means the infection continues to rage, and risk continues to grow. More than ⅔ of our Cases are still Active.

For example, according to worldometers, Austria has had 16,486 Cases, of which 95% (15,676) have been resolved via recovery or death. They only have 810 cases today. This is better measure of current risk within the population.

As far as Deaths per Million are concerned, worldometers has us at 12th place in the world. 12th out of 213. There are only 11 countries with a higher per capita death toll than us!

Speaking of "per capitas", I love this explanation...

 
Given how the virus is playing havoc with several countries in the deserted part of the middle east, I'm not sure the virus really dies down in hot weather. It's currently averaging well over 100 degrees in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and they're still seeing cases.

What occurred to me is that people in Riyadh & other wealthy ME locations maybe spending a lot of time in air conditioned interiors, so the virus may have ample opportunity to flourish in an artificially dry, moderate climate?
 
My data source is https://srv1.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I use "Active Cases" rather than "Cases" because some countries peaked long ago. In such countries, Active Cases have dropped to less than 10% of total Cases. To include all those cases which have been resolved long ago is no longer relevant. Of course in the USA we are still seeing Active Cases rising, which means the infection continues to rage, and risk continues to grow. More than ⅔ of our Cases are still Active.

For example, according to worldometers, Austria has had 16,486 Cases, of which 95% (15,676) have been resolved via recovery or death. They only have 810 cases today. This is better measure of current risk within the population.

As far as Deaths per Million are concerned, worldometers has us at 12th place in the world. 12th out of 213. There are only 11 countries with a higher per capita death toll than us!

Still, active cases aren't counted the same everywhere so it's a skewed data point. Yes, we are continuing to get active cases in the US, but according to John Hopkins we are seeing fewer new cases per day in the US, which is a good thing. On May 1st, we reported 34k new cases, whereas yesterday we 20,600 new cases. Is it ideal? No, not by a long shot, but I'll take a downward trend over an upward or leveled trend.

I'm still also a bit confused about why you think I'm implying this is all good enough?

What occurred to me is that people in Riyadh & other wealthy ME locations maybe spending a lot of time in air conditioned interiors, so the virus may have ample opportunity to flourish in an artificially dry, moderate climate?

That's definitely a possibility. Looking at other countries and/or states along the equator, it does look like there are similar areas of a spike in cases. Ecuador is currently seeing a fair amount of cases, as is Columbia and the Brazillian states of Amazonas and Ceará. I'm not really sure how much of an effect the weather actually has on the virus, but the rising number in areas of the world with average higher temps, makes me think the weather won't play into stopping the virus all that much.

I do wonder about overly sunny places though. I have to imagine if someone coughs on their hand and touches say a handrail, then the virus could very well be on that railing. But if it's really sunny with a high UV index, I'm guessing that virus will have a harder time living on that surface. Maybe someone with some science background like @Touring Mars or @Famine could chime in on whether or not that's a possibility.

Don't forget it flourishes quite well in a moist 37°C environment.

People in Florida:
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Still, active cases aren't counted the same everywhere so it's a skewed data point.

That could be said about all data points. "Cases" depends on testing (which is why Trump is against . Even deaths.

according to John Hopkins we are seeing fewer new cases per day in the US, which is a good thing.

However, while the number of new cases per day is trending smaller, it hasn't fallen off a cliff as it has in well-managed countries

I'm still also a bit confused about why you think I'm implying this is all good enough?

Because it seems to me that you're being slightly defensive about America's performance? This may be because I'm over-sensitive. If so, I apologize.
 
That could be said about all data points. "Cases" depends on testing (which is why Trump is against . Even deaths.

Yes, cases are dependent on test. However, for the most part, total cases are counted the same way. So if Country A has 3,000 confirmed cases and Country B has 30,000 confirmed cases, chances are that data is showing a running tally of confirmed tests. There's room for error sure, but for the most part the data will be collected in a similar manner across the board.

With active cases, it's all over the place. One city might consider active cases to be all cases, a state might say after so many weeks those cases are no longer active, and a country might just reset every month. It's really hard to tell and really skews the model. Also, there's very little follow up done right now with people who've contracted the disease. Health systems don't have the resources to call every person who's been diagnosed with the virus and see if they're better or not. Even then, just because you feel better doesn't mean you're cured by any stretch.

The only surefire way to determine active cases is to continuously monitor those who've tested positive and continue testing them until the test comes back negative. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury since it would overrun labs in less than 24 hours.

I sit in on meetings three times a week about COVID-19 (or rather on the phone). It's a multidisciplinary team comprised of some of the most intelligent people I think I've ever heard talk and schmos like me who just do predictive analytics. We, by in large, look at things like mortality rate and hospital utilization to get a picture of what's going on it Utah. We rarely bring up active cases because it's hard to really gauge that. However, the Utah Department of Health has now said after 21 days a person is no longer considered "active", even though there are instances of people needing to spending longer than 21 days in the ICU due to the virus. It's not ideal, but it probably captures 90% of recoveries.

However, while the number of new cases per day is trending smaller, it hasn't fallen off a cliff as it has in well-managed countries

While it hasn't fallen off a cliff, the US is doing better than some other countries. India, Brazil, Mexico, Peru, and Russia are all seeing an upward trend for the most part. Those countries haven't hit their peak yet, while the US probably has hit its peak for this wave. We could very well find ourselves in a second wave, which would cause some serious issues since it would require another lockdown/stay and home and that'd nuke an already fragile economy.

Because it seems to me that you're being slightly defensive about America's performance? This may be because I'm over-sensitive. If so, I apologize.

To a degree I am. America is doing better than many people seem to think. While our federal government is nothing short of an absolute train wreck and Trump is a bumbling buffoon, many state and local governments are doing pretty good at managing things. The numbers in America are a bit strange too, it's heavily weighted towards the eastern seaboard. Nearly 50% of all US deaths are in New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. Those four states also account for about 40% of our total cases as well. Add in another hot spot region, the Great Lakes region, and those states (MI, IL, OH, IN, WI) account for 14% of cases and 14% of deaths.

By comparison, the western seaboard (CA, OR, WA) only accounts for 6% of cases and 5% of deaths. Those three states also have 51.3 million people in them compared to the 40 million in the NY-NJ-MA megatropolis region and 46.9 million in the Great Lakes region. So despite having more people, the western seaboard is doing way better than the eastern and Great Lakes regions.

I fully agree, the US could be doing more and we certainly dropped the ball big time on getting things contained right away. Trump did no one any favors when he claimed the virus was a left-wing hoax and spewing anti-science/medical rhetoric. Thankfully, some areas chose not to listen to him and focuses in on doing the right thing by enacting lockdowns, ramping up testing, and zeroing in on their problem areas. I'm most familiar with Utah, but we never had an official lockdown, one of the few states that didn't, and we've managed just fine. This is largely in part to our leaders ignoring the federal government and doing what was best for our state. We also have two big healthcare systems that didn't drag their feet.

So while things here are a mess, they're not as big of a mess as our media is making it out to be. Also, while the US is stumbling along, it's not the only country to do so. There are several other places that are botching their handling of the virus as well and we will see over the coming weeks and months just how bad those places get. I suspect when it's all said and done, the US won't be at the top of the mortality or total cases list.
 
As far as Deaths per Million are concerned, worldometers has us at 12th place in the world. 12th out of 213. There are only 11 countries with a higher per capita death toll than us!

Speaking of "per capitas", I love this explanation...

You mean like below Italy, France, Belgium, Spain, UK, and Netherlands? First of all, you need a population that survives to old age to have large covid-19 deaths. So that rules out quite a few countries of the world as being leaders in deaths. Secondly, you have to actually report things, like with credibility. That rules out some more. The US hasn't done as good a job as it might have, but deaths per million is not the end-all metric, and the picture isn't as bleak as you paint.

The countries with higher death tolls are not places without healthcare. They're places with healthcare who have old people because of it.

Edit:

Ah who am I kidding. Obviously higher deaths per million is worse. Feel free to move to the far superior Mexican healthcare system. Or Pakistan. Or Afghanistan.
 
You keep speaking about the letter of the law, but surely you couldn't honestly say the outcome would have been the same if you replaced a politician driving to an estate house with Vicky Pollard driving a 2002 Focus to a council estate? That is where the one rule for them, one rule for us comes into effect. Been seeing it in Canada too with travel to holiday houses - a leader will come out on Friday and strongly discourage people from driving to their holiday houses (which they own and pay tax etc on), and then get spotted at their own cottage 24hrs later.
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This is all deaths, COVID-19 related or not. Sure, everything looks normal, was all overblown :rolleyes:
https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F0ea943d0-99d1-11ea-8714-b55675e4ab12-standard.png


From HSJ https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/s...true-cause-of-outbreak-deaths/7027491.article

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There should be detailed investigations to establish the different causes of deaths during the covid-19 pandemic, possibly in the autumn, pathologists have said.

The Royal College of Pathologists’ comments come amid concern over the uncertainty about the cause of the large numbers of deaths taking place. There is uncertainty about whether they are being correctly attributed to virus, and whether some have died as a knock-on effect of the response to covid-19.
There should be detailed investigations to establish the different causes of deaths during the covid-19 pandemic, possibly in the autumn, pathologists have said.

The Royal College of Pathologists’ comments come amid concern over the uncertainty about the cause of the large numbers of deaths taking place. There is uncertainty about whether they are being correctly attributed to virus, and whether some have died as a knock-on effect of the response to covid-19.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you cannot put all the excess deaths down to Covid-19, some are down to Lockdown-20. For example sending Covid-19 sufferers back to the old folks homes (The Siege of Caffa springs to mind!)
 
Colorado Governor gives the green light to restaurants re-opening for dine-in at 50% capacity.

Uh... that's aggressive. Maybe it's justified (doesn't seem like it). Let's start out by telling me that my kids are going to be in school. That much still hasn't been said.


Urgh no to kids going to school back so soon...
I personally dont want my kids back to school yet at this point.... Let them reopen for non essential stuff first and see how it goes for the next month or so... then we can reconsider for the kids....
 
Lockdown skeptics have been saying the numbers reported are falsely skewed upwards. Now the numbers are falsely skewed downward?

Guess I'll just continue to take the current numbers at value then.
I suspect it has slowly dawned on those that need to pay their bills that their time of loafing in quarantine is dragging on a bit too long. In my state, politics is more important than epidemiology in governing our management of the pandemic. I suspect the same is true in the other states.
 
With active cases, it's all over the place. One city might consider active cases to be all cases, a state might say after so many weeks those cases are no longer active, and a country might just reset every month.
That explains why some of the graphs show strange anomalies.

schmos like me who just do predictive analytics.
Do you have results you can share? I'd be very interested, especially in the light of...

while the US probably has hit its peak for this wave.
I'm hoping we are there, but not seeing the evidence yet. Maybe I'm not looking at the right data?

Nearly 50% of all US deaths are in New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts.
My assumption has been that it's due to the population density? Your thoughts?

So while things here are a mess, they're not as big of a mess as our media is making it out to be.
Media reports from other countries can provide checks and balances. British BBC, Australian ABC etc

I suspect when it's all said and done, the US won't be at the top of the mortality or total cases list.
Avoiding "being at the top" seems like a low bar. How do you see the "per capita" numbers finishing up? I doubt that they'll be much to crow about.
 
Urgh no to kids going to school back so soon...
I personally dont want my kids back to school yet at this point.... Let them reopen for non essential stuff first and see how it goes for the next month or so... then we can reconsider for the kids....

As best I can tell, the lastest info is that there are still not confirmed cases (worldwide) of any children under 10 transmitting the virus to adults. Even if there have been at this point, it would have been very few according to a few seconds of googling.

I'm sure young kids are capable of spreading the virus, but it seems that they don't do it often. Schools should re-open well before restaurants.
 
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