- 2,647
In violent protest incidents, a theme emerges: Videos contradict police accounts
There seems to be very little consequence to lying to the public.
There seems to be very little consequence to lying to the public.
Defund the Police?
- Thread starter GranTurNismo
- 182 comments
- 8,271 views
- 3,655
- Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA
Too bad that article is blocked by a paywall.
- 3,734
- St.Pete, FL
- NotThePrez
- NotThePrez
I'm kinda mixed on this one.
I believe that de-funding the police is a step, but I don't think it should be one of the first steps. A blanket reduction in funding could potentially cause further issues. I feel like it's safe to say that many US departments have issues with how officers are trained, and I'd be willing to bet that if budgets are cut, the first thing(s) departments would do in response is cut officer's pay, cut funding for training, and cut benefits to officers. That would make it to where significantly fewer quality individuals would willingly sign up for the position, especially since occasionally putting one's life on the line also comes with the territory. We'd be left with basically bottom-rung officers with sub-par training who lack the know-how and confidence to properly deal with high-intensity situations. Basically, we'd have even worse police (both size- and quality-wise) and more frequent incidents. Also, while I do think the barrier of entry is unnecessarily low on average, this is also a job that's very stressful, both physically and mentally, requires the employee to regularly go into highly-dangerous areas, and does come with the risk of them getting seriously injured or even dying for basically no reason at all, likely through no real fault of their own. With those in factors in mind, I do think a higher-than-average pay is reasonable (maybe not $100G's a year, though LA also has a notoriously high cost-of-living, so that's likely a factor as well).
As @Danoff said, the problem seems to be that police are trained to cover their butts, rather than to fully protect and serve. While I do think that police officers should be well trained in self-defense, subjecting officers to constant training videos of officers losing their lives because of "a lack of vigilance" just makes police also more reactionary, because it truly occurs to them how easy it is for something to go wrong, and they're more worried about the situation going hot rather than keeping it from getting there. I think that in lieu of (or even alongside) a budget de-funding, the public should demand the police (as well as their officials and representatives) to re-purpose their excessive funds to better, tougher, more comprehensive training and screening processes, as well as giving police officers access to much higher-quality resources when it comes to work-related stress. The public should also regularly remind the police that it's their duty to protect and serve their fellow citizens, and that citizens, suspects and prisoners do have rights and need to be shown a certain amount of respect, because mutual respect both makes the public trust the police more, while also making cops' lives easier.
Trevor Noah touches on that point a bit here (NSFW Language), which I think also highlights some of the disdain people have towards police.
This may sound controversial, but I also think that veterans, especially ones who have seen/taken part in combat, shouldn't be allowed to become police unless they go through mandatory, comprehensive mental health checks from a reputable physician (possibly one of the cities/counties choosing) to make sure that they're mentally fit for the task. They might be more disciplined, but I don't know how I'd feel if I found out that the cop responding to my emergency has a history of PTSD, but the department just went "well, he said he was good, and it looked like we could trust them." I think that if a person applies to be a police officer, and something in their screening makes the department go "yeah, you seem good, but we're not super confident" than that route should also be extended to such applicants (At the departments discretion, obviously). Just the act of the department saying "hey, you need to go and do this thing, otherwise no dice" will weed out a healthy number of applicants who aren't fully committed to the idea and risks of being a cop, and those that do go are likely to be better officers. Granted, I'm only a civilian. I'm not a solider or cop, I've (thankfully) never been shot at or in a truly life-threatening situation, so I could be completely off-base with this one.
As far as weapons and equipment and all, I personally find that a bit harder to talk about, since I feel like those decisions are based on the needs of the department, but I also think the populace should have somewhat of a say in that as well. For instance, my city's SWAT team has (to my knowledge) a single Bearcat, which I think is reasonable for St. Pete. If I popped on the news and saw that the SPPD acquired something like a de-commissioned Bradley, or a CRASH-style mobile battering ram, then I'd be pretty concerned, and would start asking questions.
IMO, We basically need to get police to a point where their quality of training is higher and more comprehensive, and that the police have more reliable, more trustworthy, and have more readily available options other than whip out their service pistol in a panic. The idea is that police should be of such a high quality that the use of force can reliably be justified, and that cops are put under significantly higher scrutiny when they screw up.
I believe that de-funding the police is a step, but I don't think it should be one of the first steps. A blanket reduction in funding could potentially cause further issues. I feel like it's safe to say that many US departments have issues with how officers are trained, and I'd be willing to bet that if budgets are cut, the first thing(s) departments would do in response is cut officer's pay, cut funding for training, and cut benefits to officers. That would make it to where significantly fewer quality individuals would willingly sign up for the position, especially since occasionally putting one's life on the line also comes with the territory. We'd be left with basically bottom-rung officers with sub-par training who lack the know-how and confidence to properly deal with high-intensity situations. Basically, we'd have even worse police (both size- and quality-wise) and more frequent incidents. Also, while I do think the barrier of entry is unnecessarily low on average, this is also a job that's very stressful, both physically and mentally, requires the employee to regularly go into highly-dangerous areas, and does come with the risk of them getting seriously injured or even dying for basically no reason at all, likely through no real fault of their own. With those in factors in mind, I do think a higher-than-average pay is reasonable (maybe not $100G's a year, though LA also has a notoriously high cost-of-living, so that's likely a factor as well).
As @Danoff said, the problem seems to be that police are trained to cover their butts, rather than to fully protect and serve. While I do think that police officers should be well trained in self-defense, subjecting officers to constant training videos of officers losing their lives because of "a lack of vigilance" just makes police also more reactionary, because it truly occurs to them how easy it is for something to go wrong, and they're more worried about the situation going hot rather than keeping it from getting there. I think that in lieu of (or even alongside) a budget de-funding, the public should demand the police (as well as their officials and representatives) to re-purpose their excessive funds to better, tougher, more comprehensive training and screening processes, as well as giving police officers access to much higher-quality resources when it comes to work-related stress. The public should also regularly remind the police that it's their duty to protect and serve their fellow citizens, and that citizens, suspects and prisoners do have rights and need to be shown a certain amount of respect, because mutual respect both makes the public trust the police more, while also making cops' lives easier.
Trevor Noah touches on that point a bit here (NSFW Language), which I think also highlights some of the disdain people have towards police.
This may sound controversial, but I also think that veterans, especially ones who have seen/taken part in combat, shouldn't be allowed to become police unless they go through mandatory, comprehensive mental health checks from a reputable physician (possibly one of the cities/counties choosing) to make sure that they're mentally fit for the task. They might be more disciplined, but I don't know how I'd feel if I found out that the cop responding to my emergency has a history of PTSD, but the department just went "well, he said he was good, and it looked like we could trust them." I think that if a person applies to be a police officer, and something in their screening makes the department go "yeah, you seem good, but we're not super confident" than that route should also be extended to such applicants (At the departments discretion, obviously). Just the act of the department saying "hey, you need to go and do this thing, otherwise no dice" will weed out a healthy number of applicants who aren't fully committed to the idea and risks of being a cop, and those that do go are likely to be better officers. Granted, I'm only a civilian. I'm not a solider or cop, I've (thankfully) never been shot at or in a truly life-threatening situation, so I could be completely off-base with this one.
As far as weapons and equipment and all, I personally find that a bit harder to talk about, since I feel like those decisions are based on the needs of the department, but I also think the populace should have somewhat of a say in that as well. For instance, my city's SWAT team has (to my knowledge) a single Bearcat, which I think is reasonable for St. Pete. If I popped on the news and saw that the SPPD acquired something like a de-commissioned Bradley, or a CRASH-style mobile battering ram, then I'd be pretty concerned, and would start asking questions.
IMO, We basically need to get police to a point where their quality of training is higher and more comprehensive, and that the police have more reliable, more trustworthy, and have more readily available options other than whip out their service pistol in a panic. The idea is that police should be of such a high quality that the use of force can reliably be justified, and that cops are put under significantly higher scrutiny when they screw up.
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
Well damn, I need to move and switch jobs! Also explains why so many APD move to different cities after their training and a few years experience under their belt. They average $35-50K a year.
- 2,647
Studies show that militarizing the police makes them more violent
"even controlling for other possible factors in police violence (such as household income, overall and black population, violent-crime levels and drug use), more-militarized law enforcement agencies were associated with more civilians killed each year by police."
"even controlling for other possible factors in police violence (such as household income, overall and black population, violent-crime levels and drug use), more-militarized law enforcement agencies were associated with more civilians killed each year by police."
- 3,655
- Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA
It's really that simple. Police officers should not carry military-grade weapons. Police are civilians, not military. It boggles my mind how much large police forces spend buying weapons directly from the military.
Veinz
Premium
- 4,836
- Ontario
Just another poorly thought out lefty idea. Defunding won’t do ****, you will still have plenty power tripping cops that hide behind their badge. What they should do is be more strict on the officers when they get complaints about them. The guy who murdered George Floyd had plenty of those apparently.
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DesertPenguin
(Banned)
- 10,691
- Long Island, New York
- DesertPenguin_
Here's some good data that can actually make a difference. Take the time to read all of this. There are eight major talking points.
Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
- Antarctica
Just for context, may I ask what specifically you mean by "military-grade weapons"?
DesertPenguin
(Banned)
- 10,691
- Long Island, New York
- DesertPenguin_
- 3,655
- Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA
Armored vehicles and helicopters, grenade launchers, M16/M4s, ballistic shields, etc. It isn't just firearms that urban police forces get from the military. Under Trump, who has eased restrictions on police forces obtaining supplies from the military, the amount of money police forces spend on military-grade supplies has increased, at over $200,000,000 a year now.
Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
- Antarctica
Are we including civilian AR-15 variants in this?
Apologies if it seems like I'm badgering, I just want to know what specifically we're talking about since "military-grade" tends to be a blanket term that doesn't exactly say a lot.
I think this is the part where our opinions will diverge a bit. I would definitely question the use of force and weapons of the police but I do think armor seems like one of those things that's kinda hard to argue against. One of those "better to have it and not need it" kind of things.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
I think this is much more to the point than cutting police budgets/forces in half. Another point is that many new recruits in the recent decade have come from veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan who may have lingering emotional/psychological trauma issues to work out.
Rather than reducing police forces, I believe we need a return to the old fashioned beat cops (foot patrol) who knew every merchant, every family and every miscreant in the neighborhood. People knew him by name and face, not just badge number. I have known psychopathic bullies who were attracted to police work and managed to rise through the ranks and become admired and emulated. This is a sickness.
The essential tool of police work begin with knowledge of the law and human nature, including empathy. When the tools on the belt need to the used, it means the other tools have failed.
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Joey D
Premium
- 46,686
- Boyne Falls, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
I think helicopters make sense for a police force, they are far better at locating a suspect on the run then police at ground level. They are also way more useful in police chases and if choppers were used more effectively high speed chases wouldn't really need to happen. The helicopter could just follow the suspect's car and direct ground units to head them off. It'd prevent some of the more serious collisions and property damage.
DesertPenguin
(Banned)
- 10,691
- Long Island, New York
- DesertPenguin_
Technically they are AR-15s, not M4s or M16s. The M4 is a military designation for the platform. An M4 is an AR-15 but not all AR-15s are M4s.
- 3,655
- Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA
Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
- Antarctica
In what way exactly?
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Back in the day, the standard police weapons were the baton, the .38 special large frame revolver, and the 12 gauge pump shotgun locked up in the patrol car. Police were trained in the use of the available 30-06 Springfield, but of course no female officer could handle one these things for more than a round or two. The AR-15 can be handled by females and slender framed men quite successfully. The resort for city police to using a rifle should be "never", SWAT teams excepted. I have no objection to body armor.
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DesertPenguin
(Banned)
- 10,691
- Long Island, New York
- DesertPenguin_
Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
- Antarctica
I understand what you're saying here, but I'm not sure that was the best way of saying it...
That would be the part I was alluding too.
- 3,655
- Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA
Here's ultimately what I'm getting at. Why does the US need a militarized police force, when a more militarized police force is linked to a greater amount of deaths/police brutality and shows no real decrease in crime?
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
You know, this bit of info here was 2019.
Prior to all these events we’ve had recently with every nut job coming out of the woodwork doing crime and bashing the police.
https://www.policeforum.org/assets/WorkforceCrisis.pdf
This crisis is not just limited to the police.
It’s other areas of the economy also outside gaming and you tube streaming.
Imo people react more with emotion when seeing horrifying events like we have had of late with uninformed knee jerk reactions.
First, look to the facts
Edit this quote is from this article about why the liberal city of Berkeleys police departments experienced professional officers jumped ship. This is a quote:
Recker and others who left said, in the end, they couldn’t put their lives on the line for a city that didn’t seem to care about their safety — particularly now that compensation isn’t as good, comparatively speaking, as it once was
The article
https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/1...-berkeley-police-officers-who-left-reveal-why
Again look to facts before talking out your well, you know
Prior to all these events we’ve had recently with every nut job coming out of the woodwork doing crime and bashing the police.
https://www.policeforum.org/assets/WorkforceCrisis.pdf
This crisis is not just limited to the police.
It’s other areas of the economy also outside gaming and you tube streaming.
Imo people react more with emotion when seeing horrifying events like we have had of late with uninformed knee jerk reactions.
First, look to the facts
Edit this quote is from this article about why the liberal city of Berkeleys police departments experienced professional officers jumped ship. This is a quote:
Recker and others who left said, in the end, they couldn’t put their lives on the line for a city that didn’t seem to care about their safety — particularly now that compensation isn’t as good, comparatively speaking, as it once was
The article
https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/1...-berkeley-police-officers-who-left-reveal-why
Again look to facts before talking out your well, you know
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Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
- Antarctica
I would imagine it would be from the expectation that the police need to equipped and prepared to deal with any conceivable situation that can happen, and react as quickly/effectively as possible. On paper, it doesn't sound that unreasonable.
That said, in a country where accountability for one's actions seems to mean jack for police officers, there ends up being plenty of situations where said equipment can, and has been misused/abused.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Look here.
https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/03/19/violent-crime-berkeley
Facts...
Poor management by city
Experienced police leaving
Violent crime rising
IMO some folks maybe need to not worship you tubers broadcasting from their parents basements and look at reality instead.
https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/03/19/violent-crime-berkeley
Facts...
Poor management by city
Experienced police leaving
Violent crime rising
IMO some folks maybe need to not worship you tubers broadcasting from their parents basements and look at reality instead.
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Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
- Antarctica
Oof.
That's some unfortunate phrasing there. I would hope you don't mean this literally.
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- 3,655
- Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA
Well, I guess there really isn't a positive way to phrase that defunding the police will result in less cops. I'm aware that my optics generally aren't too good when it comes to a political discussion.
It's worth noting that less cops won't necessarily result in an unemployment crisis. Two members of my family (my uncle, who's max level of education is high school, and my cousin who's max level of education is an G.E.D.) were formerly police officers up until a few years ago. My uncle quit the police force after 15 years, in protest (not long after the Michael Brown incident) and my cousin quit after almost ten years because the job was too strenuous. My uncle now works as a manager of a construction site and my cousin is a private investigator for an auto insurance company, both jobs which pay better than being a cop. Although you may not have a college degree, police experience is apparently helps you get good jobs.
And the lack of police officers, as well as judges and prison workers as a result of a downsizing of the police force will be counteracted by an increase in social workers, mental health professionals, and drug rehab counselors.
DesertPenguin
(Banned)
- 10,691
- Long Island, New York
- DesertPenguin_
They were talking about the female part with the guns.
Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
- Antarctica
I don't think laying people off is a great way to handle that.
Scrutinizing the police force and firing people for misconduct? Go ahead.
Admittedly, I skimped through this thread the first time through and only went back to read through the whole thing now.
Scrutinizing the police force and firing people for misconduct? Go ahead.
That particular post replying to OP.
Admittedly, I skimped through this thread the first time through and only went back to read through the whole thing now.
