Dispelling the myths about GT4 Pro GT World Championship

Discussion in 'GT4 Race Reports' started by phattboy, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. phattboy

    phattboy

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    I thought about where to put this and ultimately decided on here in the write-ups section of GT4 mostly because it is not the normal thread you might find elsewhere. Besides, it really is more of a write-up/diary of sorts than anything else. For those of you who are looking for setups and actual times, I can tell you right up front you will likely be disappointed. This is more of a sharing of general information of what I now know to be true about this particular series in the GT4 game.

    I had read a thread and in the fabric of that thread I found a statement-more an observation by the person writing it that I found interesting. He/she said basically, "Don't you find it odd that often the prize car you win from a series wouldn't even be able to compete in the series you won it from?" The writer went on to point out the example of the Ford GT you win from the Pro GT World Championship. That is what got me thinking about this initially. I decided I would go back and test this postulation when I finished my first time through GT4.

    At multiple other junctures I have read on this forum where a lot of folks were asking the question to the effect of, "What is the best car to use for the Pro GT World Championship?" I read answers where some thought "this" car and others thought "that" car and still others thought "some" other car. I have repeatedly seen questions that included essentially, "Well I tried this car and couldn't beat it so now what car should I try?" I saw where folks had won a particular race and gotten beaten in the ensuing race at another track with the same setup... etc. These lines of thought got me thinking even more and I decided to add proving to myself what cars I could use to win the Pro GT World Championship to the above question of could you beat this series in the car you win from the series.

    I say prove it to myself because I don't really think you can or need to prove it to anyone else. I share what I have done here only to let folks know what I discovered. I am what I would consider an average driver. That is to say, I read times submitted all over this forum that I don't honestly think I could get around some tracks. I believe them and their times, I just don't think I could do it. I also read times that I would literally have to stop and wait several seconds to be that slow. We all seem to be enjoying ourselves at all different speeds here at the planet and I am somewhere in the middle of that fray.

    My first time through the game, I had the Minolta when I came to this series so I modded it up with the turbo and tires and took on the series. I won 10x10 my first time through. Couple of little challenges that were strictly driver error along the way but, overall, not much of a serious challenge.

    When I finished the game, I came back to this championship to answer my questions. When I came back, I came armed with the Ford GT II I had won here the first time to answer my first question. That being, "Could I win the series with what I won from the series?" Needless for some to have me say but I will say it anyway; I got a dinner plate full of phattboy butt handed back to me.

    Was my question answered? Not yet. Not definitively albeit, I certainly had a better idea of what I was not capable of just yet. I needed some practice and then maybe I could.

    Knowing practice includes knowledge of the tracks as well as of how to best setup and drive a particular car, I decided I could garner the needed knowledge of the tracks by answering my second question. "What cars can I win this with?"

    I went back to the Minolta and took it back to how I won it. No turbo, just tires, tuning and timing. I raced the series three times in the Minolta, once with R2/R1 and in which I did not win 10X10 but in which I won the series. I raced once with R3/R2 and taking pit stops and also in which I did not win 10X10 although I won the series. Finally for that go round, I won the series 10X10 running a combo strategy on tires and pit stops. Then I went back and ran the series starting from the back of the pack and won 10X10 with the combo strategy again. I won the last time with absolute ease.

    Turns out that apparently practice really was what I needed. I went and got the Ford GT II again. Again, I dined on humble pie. Two races in, I knew the end result and since I was growing weary of the taste of phattboy butt, I quit with the GT II again.

    I returned with the Bad Boy Nissan R92CP (Red/White/Blue). I brought a trailer of tires and no turbos. Another handy win starting from the back using combo tire strategy and no turbo. I returned with the Black version for a couple of races to determine if there would be any difference in the result. A couple races in and I knew the difference would be minor so I ended the process on that one.

    Curious now, I came back with a R89 on the trailer and discovered a very interesting thing. Under the same racing conditions as before of no turbos, just combo strategy, sometimes pitting in the race, and sometimes not, I found the win even easier with that car.

    Practice making perfect? I returned with the Ford again and still got kicked. I guess the R89 and I just get along really well. I find it stable and predictable in nearly every situation for my style of driving.

    I returned with the Jag. Had to work it but I won 10X10.

    I returned with the 787B and like the R89, me and the 787B get along famously and I don't care what color it is cause I can't see it from where I'm sitting.

    I returned with the GT-One... no real problem.

    Tried the Ford GT again... nope... not yet

    Then came the Bentley, the BMW (not the McJokehype F1), both Pesky's and the R8. All, no turbos... no real problem and no, I did not run every race completely through. Only far enough to know I had the win baring mistakes. The point is to answer, "could I win".

    Ford GT? Nope! Not up to the task yet but I must say, fairing better than previously.

    When I came back with the R390 Nissan, I found a hitch in the getalong. I couldn't win 10X10 with no turbo. In fact, I soon reached a point in the series when I decided I wouldn't win the series... period. I quit, came back with a stage 3 turbo and "poof", I'm back in the running although I still had to work a couple of races pretty hard.

    At this point, I'm really thinking I am starting to accomplish something and then I ran across this thread:

    Old Geezer's thread on the GT World Championship with a Nissan Motul Pitworks

    My hat is off to this accomplishment :cheers: I am impressed and I'm thinking my efforts with the R390 kinda pale in comparison. But I noticed Old Geezer was only getting 54 points per race and some of mine were showing up with much more points... In fact, as much as twice in some test races, so I finished the series out in the R390 anyway.

    As a side note: I went and tried Old Geezer's Motul because I was confused about the points thing. Although I didn't race the entire series but rather raced enough as individual spot races to determine this: I found it much harder to win in the Motul than the R390. So, here I sit, still confused about the point thing I mentioned earlier.

    Just for grins, my most recent try was with the Ford GT II and it was still to no avail.

    I intend to at some point to see about the BMW McJokehype F1 but for now I am a little bored with this series and have gone on to answering some questions in the Ice Arena.

    Here are some random things I gleaned in this process.

    1- I found that nearly all the cars that are C-Class (ie: does not include the LMP or LMR or whatever they are called), my setup seems to always revert back to about the same. I start with this as a base:

    Change the ride height to about 15 or 20 over the lowest setting.

    Set the dampers to 5/7 or 6/8

    Add -1 to the rear toe.

    Change the brakes to around 6/6 or 6/7

    Set the tranny a couple of clicks up from stock on the autoset.

    Make sure of full downforce. (PD pulls a quickie there ;) )

    set the ASM/TCS to 0/0/x (depending on car)

    Leave the rest alone and race.

    Soften the springs up, raise the ride and set the tranny autoset a couple clicks down in the bumpy cities like the Kong or the Opera.

    2- The R390 is a patience barge in most races. Just hang in there with no pits whenever possible. In fact, drive a little slower to assure no pits if that is what it takes.

    3- The Bentley is a bugger in the city

    4- The Pesky's are almost too easy to setup and drive and win

    5- The Audi R8 and the BMW are temperamental to set up but once you get it, you own the competition with almost no effort.

    6- The Minolta, the R92CP, the 787B and, at least for me, the R89C shouldn't even be used if you are looking for any kind of competition in this series.

    7- After reading this, you should have some idea what choice to make.

    8- Hong Kong is still my favorite track with Opera running a close second along with Suzuka and El Capitan.

    9- Seol and NY are filler and a waste of time.

    10- You need a chassis refresh long before you get to le Sarthe if you run the race as a series and I think it is even worse in the Black Cars. Learn the toe thing for help.

    11- I am getting good enough with the Ford GT II that I believe this series just might be winnable in it... just not by me... yet.

    If I think of more, I will edit this.

    phattboy
     
  2. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Whoah....interesting study there, phattboy.:tup: In your conclusion, you stated that this series is not winnable by you....yet. D'you entertain the notion of throwing this idea towards Famine? He is legendary for beating seemingly impossible challenges with ease. I know you want to say, "I did it, no help." But maybe Famine could help you out a bit with settings and the like... And the popular consenous here is, if Famine can't do it, noone can. Just a thought.
     
  3. Zardoz

    Zardoz

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    2,208

    Very true, and well put.

    Some players are really struggling with this series, but others breeze through it on their first try. All GT4 forums are full of threads about it. I wish GT4 had about ten series like it.

    Coincidentally, I'm also doing a Le Mans car comparison, but of a very different type. I'm using B-Spec Bob to try to get a definitive idea of the performance rankings of these cars on Sarth II. I'll post it in a week or so.




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  4. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    Glad you found it interesting. :tup:

    Famine is "legendary". If he reads this and decides he is challenged to win this series with a Ford GT II then I would definitely want to know how he went about it just for the information.

    On the other hand, I know from race series I have participated in, that the more you go at a track with a particular car, the more you find amazing amounts of time hidden in there that you were missing before. I have seen seconds upon seconds come off times with practice in that way. Thus my comment of "...just not by me...yet". I think that if I were motivated enough, I am beginning to believe I might be able to accomplish this series in this car. My problem is, I got bored with trying before I did that.:lol:

    phattboy
     
  5. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    I will look forward to that as I am very interested in this sort of thing as well as b-spec. :tup:

    phattboy
     
  6. Jetboy.

    Jetboy.

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    Well, all I can say is, "Good luck", and "Keep crackin'." Take a look at my comparo, the Ultimate Street Car Challenge. You might find it interesting as well...
     
  7. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    Will do :tup:

    phattboy
     
  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer

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    Jeeeze! And I thought I enjoyed that series! :eek: VERY Interesting observations there "Partner!" I'd never thought of going back after a Series with the Prize Car. :)

    Speaking of which...does any one else find most of the "Prize Cars" rather "Pathetic" in GT4? :indiff: I mean we're all used to "Buy a Vitz - Win ANOTHER Vitz" races but what about the Suzuka 1000km where the "Prize" is the LISTER Storm V12 Race Car '99? Or worse yet the European Hot Hatch Car Championship where you win a VOLVO 240 GLT Estate '88! (Look Ma, it's a BRICK with Wheels!) Whopee, I'll sure be running that one over & over! Plus the "Patent Mobiles" et all should have been in a "Museum" where you pay a fee if you actually CARE about driving them...NOT awarded for a Major Accomplishment! :irked: Must be Japanese Logic that I just can't wrap my mind around. Anyhow, I digress.

    FANTASTIC EFFORT phattboy! :tup: Looking forward to future installments! ...O.G. :D
     
  9. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    Please... go ahead and digress. And by the way, I couldn't agree more. I kinda think the logic was not nearly so sophisticated as one might think it should have been. I believe they got near the end of the thing, had a bunch of races and a bunch of cars left over and they blindfolded someone and did a "pin the tail on the donkey" thing. :lol:

    phattboy
     
  10. Zardoz

    Zardoz

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    2,208

    Actually, its Polyphony Digital logic we're all having trouble with.

    Someday, somebody is going to post a thread listing all the bugs, mistakes, inaccuracies, biases, errors, oddities, anomalies, weirdnesses, blunders, inconsistencies, and eccentricities of GT4. It will take hours just to read the initial post.




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  11. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer

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    Well...as long as we're on the subject...(I may have already posted this elsewhere but gettin' OLD does NOT help the memory any! :lol: )...WHY is there an "ALTEZZA" one make race in the TOYOTA Manufacturer's area of JAPAN??? when you have to go to the USA to buy a LEXUS so you can enter it? :confused: ...O.G. :D
     
  12. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    I wondered that for the longest time too. :confused: But hey, who am I to question the logic. Maybe just one more dis on the US to let us know they make the stupid things. :dopey:

    A bigger question is why even have the Altezza race in the first place??? It was lameness extrodinaire at best.

    And while we are still on the subject... What is up with buying all these cars? About every third one sounds the same and drives like the one before it? Whatever happened to earning prize cars from one to win another and keeping the purchases at a minimum and the challenges at a maximum?

    phattboy
     
  13. ktaylor57

    ktaylor57

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    I didn't understand that one either. I suppose since the Lexus IS200 = Altezza they just forgot to rename it (like the Alcyone and Roadster events in GT2)? Or decided not to? Hey, at least you weren't like me and didn't go around looking for an Altezza in the used car lot instead of looking at what cars are allowed in the race first...

    Yeah, I agree with you on the prize cars being kind of lame. A '63 Alfa Romeo (or whatever it is) for 1000 miles? The aforementioned Volvo (oh wow it's a Volvo wagon you can buy used only with 0 miles) and 1886 cars or the Model T for ALL GOLD in the Super License? Let's not forget the duplicate Nike One for the Saleen S7 race. Seriously, you'd think a few of these could have been replaced with something more rewarding.
     
  14. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    Then of course there is that one Subaru race (360?) and the Midget (whatever lawn truck) race... How dumb are those on a scale of 1 to -10???

    phattboy
     
  15. Studentdriver

    Studentdriver

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    Reading this has gotten me to think how many of these championships can be won with the prize car. Might make a collective write-up with brief difficulty assessments and car mods. Red Emblem Race anyone? Won't happen for a while though. Summer at the earliest.
     
  16. Indyxc

    Indyxc

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    Phattboy, since you have good experience with all the LMP cars, which would you say is the best overall package?

    I myself like the Gt-one, driven the Nissan R92CP, Minolta, 88' Jag Rac car, havent' driven the bentley, audi, perscarlos, etc..
     
  17. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    Just for clarification, to me the LMP cars are the open top cars and the C class are the rest of them (that could be wrong but that is how I look at them right now until someone straightens me out).

    That being said, there is no doubt in my mind the best package of the C Class cars is the Minolta- You can throw that thing around on any track, get your wheels off track, hit rumble strips, and whatever and not lose it if set up right. Plus there is almost nothing special to do to set the thing up.

    With the above drivability of the Minolta as criteria for best package, I would have to give the nod to the Pesky's as the closest match for setup and drivability in the LMP class and of the two I prefer the higher HP one (name slips my mind). I found the BMW and the R8 kindof "testy" to get set up and it seemed there was some fiddling around at each race venue. Not so with the Pesky's, they are pretty near good for me right out of the box. FYI, I personally don't really like any of the LMP class with a turbo. They just seem to get goofy.

    phattboy
     
  18. SkylineObsession

    SkylineObsession Premium

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    After my B-Spec driver kept getting fourth or fifth in this series i took over the controls from race five (or four) onwards. I ended up coming third in the championship, winning all but one (i think - or i might have won all of them) out of the six or so remaining races.

    With a completely stock (incl. stock settings and tyres) [R]Mercedes-Benz CLK GTR.

    Why do i never hear anyone say good things about this car? It goes really awesome as far as i'm concerned. I'm going to re-do the series shortly all by myself (B-Spec can sit and watch) to win it in the Benz.
     
  19. Sjenk

    Sjenk

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    380
    I like the car very much, I'm busy with a write-up right now. I drove this thing (stock!, did buy hard and super hard tyres) in this championship and I just don't understand why people are saying that winning is impossible in the CLK-GTR.
     
  20. phattboy

    phattboy

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    715
    Although I didn't mention it above, I did try this car out as well. I did not run the entire series but, did run it far enough into each race to know the series can be won in this car without turbo (ie: stock except tires). That being said, I know for a fact I personally couldn't win the entire series with it 10 X 10 in that configuration let alone with the "stock" settings. If you do/did, I take my hat off to you.

    For example, I have no idea in the world how I would be able to win at the Super Speedway with the stock settings. As it was, no amount of tuning (I am only a fair tuner BTW) I employed was able to get the stupid thing to quit understeering to the point of even being able to be competitive. The same thing was hurting me at Tokyo and one other track that I don't recall at the moment. I would be interested in trying the settings out of anyone who is able to get the understeer out of thing.

    I think the car is, by far, one of the coolest looking in the entire game, particularly fun to drive on some tracks and actually pretty fast. However, it cannot be denied this thing is a barge when it comes to fine handling and I think that is why so many don't have good things to say about it. In general, it is a disappointment compared to what it looks like and likely was in real life.

    It's best attribute in the game in my humble opinion is to look pretty and be a cash cow. :)

    phattboy
     
  21. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Tried it with the Nissan Z350 "whatever" Racing car... not a very good idea.
    Tried it with the CLK GTR Racing car... Hard... and couldn't B-spec any of it...
    Tried it with Peugeot 905 Racing car... Looking very good, until I decided to B-Spec some of it to save time. Now I have to restart it in order to get all golds. This is ruinning my win ratio ! :grumpy:

    I have the impression that the B-Spec driver is really lame :dunce: with fast racing cars... It actually manages to crash the 905 on the Motegi oval track, and to be 4 seconds slower than me on DeepForest on "5-Push Hard"...

    Cheers,

    Burn
    GT4@ 52%
     
  22. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer

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    I don't understand the "Bad Press" the MERCEDES-BENZ AMG CLK-GTR Race Car '98 seems to get either! :confused: Although some member (who no longer seems to frequent the Forum) claimed it was "A Piece of Junk" & "Nobody" could use it to win Gran Turismo All Stars in EXTREME HALL I found it to be lots of fun to drive & an easy Winner there. Unlike GT3 ALL the Race Cars can NOT have the same Downforce as the Formula GT Cars & we'll have to learn to deal with that. :irked: The BMW MacLaren F1 GTR Race Car '97 has similar stats to the Big Merc so I'll most likely give it a shot there next...O.G. :D
     
  23. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    I agree. It's not an "easy ride" or "easy winner", but it's a very good car, with very good predictable handling. But too heavy and too long for slow corners and short tracks...ts That's why I did not use it...
     
  24. phattboy

    phattboy

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    This comment doesn't surprise me one bit :lol: It is coming from a guy who set up races in GT3 with such stellar rides as the Calibra and the Lister in GT3. I actually think you enjoyed driving those cars as well:lol:

    Your ability is you can adjust to the unadjustable where some of us (pick me) are not so able. So little nuances of cars matter to me (like turning) whereas you don't even seem to notice. :lol:

    phattboy
     
  25. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer

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    THANX "PARTNER!" Yep, that would be ME!
    "Tuning??? We don't need no Stinking Tuning!" :tup: I know I "Tune" less than most everyone else...basicly because I know so much LESS about it! I do tend to just "Jump in & Drive" & most often it works out "OK." ...O.G. :D
     
  26. Zardoz

    Zardoz

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    2,208
    **** BREAKING NEWS! ****

    This just in:

    Gran Turismo 4 player "Zardoz", known for his wordy, bombastic posts on numerous GT4 forums, has announced that he has performed his first 2,160-degree spinout on a GT4 track.

    The milestone was achieved on the Sarth II track as he was testing a BMW McLaren F1 GTR. It occurred just before the high-speed right turn that leads into the famous Indianapolis corner as Zardoz lost control of the touchy machine after letting it drift slightly off the pavement.

    The car began a slow spin to the right as Zardoz tried to steer into it, but the car instantly snapped around to the left and began the series of spectacular gyrations, ending up back on the pavement facing the correct way on the course. The replay confirmed that no contact was made with the barrier walls.

    "That's the first-ever for me", said the grizzled Gran Turismo veteran. "I'm sure that's the first sixer I've ever pulled off. No surprise that I did it in that POS. It gives you no slack at all. One little screw-up and it just takes your head clean off."

    Zardoz vowed that the frightening incident would not sour him on the car.

    "Hey, they can't all be like the Pescarolos, you know. We've got to have some cars like the McLaren to keep us from getting lazy."


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  27. phattboy

    phattboy

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    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Makes ya almost dizzy doesn't it? The grizzled vet is right: BMW McJokehype F1= POS

    phattboy (gonna laugh all afternoon!)
     
  28. Indyxc

    Indyxc

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    Phattboy-

    I bought the Pescarlo C60 Judd (whater the proper name is) per your suggestion, and I must say at first I was disappointed, because it was under steering like crazy. Then I noticed the stock ride height was the front all the way down, and the back 20 mm higher.

    Set the car up right without a turbo upgrade, and that helped cured the oversteer. What is really impressive about this car is the tire wear. This thing can go FOREVER relative to the minolta, gt-one, rc92r. With those cars, I need a hard tire in the back for Nuburgring. With the C60 I can go two laps on medium tires, and the rear is still ok. Plus the tire wear is very even.

    Likewise, since the HP is only "800" without turbo upgrade, most of the races with cars in the same class are around 50 since it's lower in hp.

    Overall great car, looks cool.
     
  29. slowpoke

    slowpoke

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    Great write up Phattboy! Lotsa great info on a series that is calling me to re-run in something less than an R-8 ;) When the racing mood comes back, the Ford might come out of the shack :tup:

    and that Partner of yours is one twisted, warped individual!! Who'd ever think of running a Lister in a series?!? :crazy: :lol:

    Keep up the good work, both of you! :D
     
  30. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer

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    Hey "pokie" how ya been? I heard you wanna run the Lister at Grand Valley "Again"...but this time for 60 Laps! :eek: ...O.G. :D