Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 22,605 comments
  • 771,133 views

Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 588 31.2%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 346 18.4%
  • No way!

    Votes: 952 50.5%

  • Total voters
    1,885

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
Who's ignoring what, now?

-

You make a lot of claims about what people who don't believe in god believe.

Just because some atheists are nihilists doesn't make all atheists nihilists.

I gave you a reason for living. And it's a simple one.

-

We are humans. We are born humans. We die humans.

-

As humans, our biological imperative is ensuring the continuation of our bloodline.

-

And the best way to assure the continuance of that bloodline is to work to provide a better world, a better future for our descendants.

That involves helping other people. And not being a jerk. Cooperation provides the best chances of survival for the young. "Do unto others", as Confucius said, long before Christ.

-

Sounds like a reason to choose existence, doesn't it? And it doesn't involve materialistic joy at all.
Why should I care? I will die anyway. It is indeed noble to care for other humans for some people, but I dnot choose this path. I choose the path of enjoying life to the fullest, these people I meet will die anyway, so why should I care about the others? Once I am dead, something which I can't avoud, these people can't do me anything anyway. Ultimate pleasure is better than caring for other human beings. Just because I am human doesn't mean that I have to take care of other hyman beings, it is I who is the most important, everyone else comes in second.
There is no need to make a better world for my descendants if I choose to not have descendants in the first place,nor should there be a reason for me to care about the world once I am dead. No reason at all. It's a waste of time in fact,I could spend my time enjoying my life instead.
 
1,263
Czech Republic
CZE
novcze
Science and knowledge is truly a tremendous power, but man has become arrogant in thinking of themselves of God(s).

Nobody knows better than scientist or educated people that humans are very far from having god-like power.


Why do we exist?

To satisfy our needs. As every other living organism on this planet do.


Why should I continue on living if I know that in the end, death is inevitable, in the end, all things that begin in this world will come to an end, that in the end, progress is not eternal and will come to an end, that there is an end to everything and that from a scientific position, there is no reason for our existence except to continue on living and breeding, ...

You are not interested in human progress? Maybe it's too slow and maybe it will lead nowhere, but we should take it as far as possible because someday this planet will be uninhabitable and scientific progress can maybe give us a chance.


Which leads to one conclusion: my death can not be avoided. Therefore, it should not matter if my death is today or tomorrow, if I end my life through my own hand or if I die through "natural" causes...

not that easy, society invested in you, now go to work and pay taxes as everyone else and contribute to human progress ... and hope that your government will invest your money wisely ;-)
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
That the existence of god can be neither proved nor disproved does not mean that both possibilities are equally likely.

--



There's very little to rebut - you essentially only made one claim:



This nonsense has been trotted out many times in this thread already. Nobody has ever been able to even begin to demonstrate that it's true. If you'd like to take a crack at it, go ahead.

Beyond that, you demonstrated nothing other than that you appear to be going through some sort of existential crisis.

As for some of your questions:



Who says there must be a reason for our existence?



I can only answer for myself, but my reason to "continue on living" is that I'm having a hell of a good time doing so.
So you agree with me; you say our existence has no reason (to this conclusuon you come through reason), that life is senseless, except through seeking joy, disregarding death.
Materialistic nihilist.
Also, please so don't say stuff like "you're going through some sort of existential crisis" xDdd, this is the response from one who simply ignores these questions, like most people do nowadays.
I will not talk about God for now. But what you said is false.
 

Stylel_Code

(Banned)
344
France
France
stylel-soheib
Who said you must have a reason anyway? If there is a reason, it is through the usual scientific methods that we will find it, not by assuming things based on nothing..
It does not mean we don't have an answer today, that we won't have anytime. But even if we never find the answer, we would have looked for it through science, which is the only thing on which you can base and apply the knowledge of the universe.
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
Nobody knows better than scientist or educated people that humans are very far from having god-like power.




To satisfy our needs. As every other living organism on this planet do.




You are not interested in human progress? Maybe it's too slow and maybe it will lead nowhere, but we should take it as far as possible because someday this planet will be uninhabitable and scientific progress can maybe give us a chance.




not that easy, society invested in you, now go to work and pay taxes as everyone else and contribute to human progress ... and hope that your government will invest your money wisely ;-)
I would say otherwise. There are many humans that think of themselves as God today.

We exist to satisfy our needs? This is the same as saying that our reason of life is to continue living. In the face of death. It's disregaeding the most basic fact of life,that death is unavoidable. People are mostly forgetting that we die some day, and that all progress and things will come to an end.

I wouldn't say that I am in uninterested in the progress of science, in fact, I would say that science is one of the most beautiful achievements of humanity. It's great to see what humans are capable of! Sadly, many people misuse it for their own nefarious deeds or become arrogant.

That the government and society invested into me because they want to use me is uninteresting to me. Contributing to something that will come to an end doesn't me either. Someone else can take my place.
I matter the most, after all.

EDIT:
Who said you must have a reason anyway? If there is a reason, it is through the usual scientific methods that we will find it, not by assuming things based on nothing..

It does not mean we don't have an answer today, that we won't have anytime. But even if we never find the answer, we would have looked for it through science, which is the only thing on which you can base and apply the knowledge of the universe.

But there is a reason, according to biology: we live to continue to live. A reason that doesn't make sense and disregards death.

And I wouldn't say that science is the only way to find answers to questions that are fundamentally non scientific, what I am asking is essentially going against the "nature" of living beings
 
Last edited:

niky

Karma Chameleon
Moderator
23,800
Philippines
Philippines
Buddhists believe in an afterlife, something which atheists do not. Similiarily, Buddhism does not equate with a non-theistic stance, Buddhists can and did believe in God(s).

Belief in an afterlife does not equal a belief in God. Buddhists can believe in Gods, but Buddhism is not God-centric.

I do not necessarily disbelieve in existence after death. I simply accept that there is no proof of continued existence or interaction with the physical Universe after death.


Taoism and Confucianism are, like humanism, a philsophical stance.
Now then, this doesn't explain the unreasonableness off life and existence.

You do realize, of course, that nihilism is also a philosophical stance.

You say that we exist because we exist, elaborate further on that, do I eat because I eat, rape because I rape, kill because I kill?

We exist because we exist. What we do with that existence, as I've said, is up to us.

You say that an individual can influence the world. I argue: are you certain of that? It is true that every single human individual does influence the world partly, but this influence has almost vanished entirely with the coming of the age of the industry: little does one Bangladeshi matter more or less to the average man, we have "too many humans" in this world anyway.

What one American does, a continent away, has little effect on one Bangladeshi. One Bangladeshi, however, can have a big effect on other Bangladeshis.

-

Am I certain that I can influence the world? Yes, yes I am. Right now I'm influencing you. I'm also influencing a few dozen people possibly curious enough to read this post. I'm also influencing dozens of people who might read what I write on Facebook, hundreds who read what I write for work at my office, thousands who read what I write for work at the magazine, and tens of thousands who read what I write for the web.

Beyond that, though, I exert influence on my neighbors. On the woman who I buy my diet sodas from in the morning. On the janitors, co-workers and students I greet every day.

Just because there are a lot of people in the world doesn't mean individuals are worthless. In our daily lives, we still interact on a local level, and that's important.


Additionally, influencing the world will matter little to one who dies too, what does he gain by that if he dies anyway?

Self-satisfaction and self-fulfillment. Sounds like very little, but in the end, that's what everything boils down to, whether you believe in God or not. And beyond that, satisfaction that you've furthered the cause of humanity.

Why should I help and take care of people if I don't want to, if these people do not take care of me, if at the end of the equation I die anyway? Why shouls I not take the path of crime, why should I not choose to steal from the rich, to rape when I want, to pursuit absolute joy in disregard of everything else?

Already answered. Because human life has value.

Why do other people matter?

Let's play a game.

Do the lives of other humans have value?

Answer: No: Bam. You're dead. If you don't value other people's lives, there's no reason for us to value yours. No need to talk to you any further.

Answer: Yes. Cool. Now don't kill/rape/oppress us, and we'll return the favor.

Simple philosophical reciprocity. Mutual respect.

To go further down that avenue, perhaps you should read @Danoff 's Human Rights thread:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/human-rights.77925/

As an example of creating an entire ethical system from just that single premise.


Yes, I believe that, because my life matters more than others. I am the most important person on this world, I seek all the pleasure in this world, because what matters for me is making life joyful,I will die anyway.

Have fun, then.

-

It's interesting to note that in educational/developmental terms, there is the transition all children must go through where control moves from the external to the internal. Where discipline, routine and ethical values are no longer enforced by a teacher or parent, but are instead internalized, requiring no punishment-reward system to ensure compliance.

Ergo, adults shouldn't need to be paddled to ensure good behaviour.

-

Which brings up the question, again:

Without God, would you say that you have no internal control over your actions?

That you would act nihilistically, and without thought as to the consequences of what you do?

-

This is where the Christian religion, arguably, moves forward from the fire-and-brimstone of the Hebraic (Old Testament) religion that preceded it. In that one, control was completely external. "Do this or be punished."

Christianity has a more simple, and a more abstract rule: "Do unto others..." one that does not prescribe a certain set of actions, but which asks its followers to think about which actions are appropriate.

-

Humanism simply goes further and says that we should not love each other because God says so. We should love each other because it is simply the right thing to do.

-

Also, your fascination with death is telling.

Just because a book ends, doesn't mean there's no reason to read it. (I'm assuming you read books for fun).
 
Last edited:

R1600Turbo

Premium
53,054
United States
CG, AZ, USA, Earth
R1600Turbo
I got to read that last post before it was deleted. This guy is something else. Surely based on his wide usage of the r-word makes one wonder what he does in his spare time.
 

Touring Mars

MARS-CoV-2
Moderator
24,692
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
GTP_Mars
OK, that is quite enough @enigma911

If you cannot post your opinion without resorting to blatant insults, then your comments are not welcome here and they will be deleted... another post like the one I just deleted and you will be permanently banned from GTPlanet.

This is a forum for mature and polite discussion and debate, and we have very clear and reasonable standards of behaviour that the vast majority of our members have no problem sticking to - review them here: https://www.gtplanet.net/aup/
 

huskeR32

Calvinball MVP
Premium
2,596
United States
Lincoln, NE
huskeR_32
So you agree with me;

Not even a little bit.

you say our existence has no reason (to this conclusuon you come through reason),

I didn't say that, I asked you why you felt there must be a reason.

that life is senseless

This I don't agree with at all. You should be more consistent with the words you use. "Without a reason" does not equal "senseless."

except through seeking joy,

Not quite what I said there either. I said that I want to keep living because "I'm having a hell of a good time," which I suppose could be paraphrased more or less as "seeking joy." But I wasn't suggesting that thought in itself gives life purpose. It was simply an answer to your fatalistic "Why should I continue on living?"

There might be some universal purpose for human existence, and there might not be. Frankly, I don't care either way. I just want to be happy for as long as possible.

disregarding death.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Materialistic nihilist.

What have I said that even remotely indicates a materialistic point of view?

Also, please so don't say stuff like "you're going through some sort of existential crisis"

Fair enough; I'll stop putting words in your mouth the minute you return the favor. Stop insisting that we're all a bunch of nihilists.

There's a huge range of atheistic philosophies out there, and you're insisting on shoving us all into a one-size-fits-all box so that you can dismiss us all at once, without considering any of the different ideas we might have.

this is the response from one who simply ignores these questions, like most people do nowadays.

I didn't ignore anything. None of your hand-wringing about death poses any significant challenges to atheism. I have asked myself many of those same questions before, and I'm sure most of the others in this thread have too. If you're looking for substantive conversation about it, I'd suggest that you stop shouting your pre-conceived notions at us, tone the angst down a little bit, and simply ask us.

I will not talk about God for now.

That's an odd restriction to place on yourself in a thread called "Do you believe in God?"

But what you said is false.

Which part? The only statement of fact that I made was that I'm happy to be alive.
 

Joey D

Swedespeed
Premium
44,029
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
Yes, I do. Any other position will end inevitably in nihilistic materialism- there is no sense in life without God. Science and knowledge is truly a tremendous power, but man has become arrogant in thinking of themselves of God(s).
I challenge you, enemies of God: Why do we exist? Why should I continue on living if I know that in the end, death is inevitable, in the end, all things that begin in this world will come to an end, that in the end, progress is not eternal and will come to an end, that there is an end to everything and that from a scientific position, there is no reason for our existence except to continue on living and breeding, knowing that death is unavoidable and there is an end to everything; and that therefore there is no reason to continue on living, because the end of life is inevitable and the struggle to continue living is futile at the very end.
Which leads to one conclusion: my death can not be avoided. Therefore, it should not matter if my death is today or tomorrow, if I end my life through my own hand or if I die through "natural" causes; at the end of the equation, nature, God's eternal law, has destined death for all living beings.
Life is unreasonable, our existence has no reason, nihilism.
This is the stance of the irreligious people, truly those who do not recognise their fallacy.

Out of curiosity, which god do you believe in? And how do you know it's the right one?

I believe in a supernatural power, but I don't believe in religion since I think they don't get it right however I do think there is a higher power. I also don't think my life is necessarily anymore or less complete than someone who doesn't believe in a higher power because I know several individuals who don't believe and are living perfectly happy and fulfilling lives.

As for why do we exist? Well it started as a primordial ooze that made the right mix and over millions of years we eventually reached the point of humans.
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
Not even a little bit.



I didn't say that, I asked you why you felt there must be a reason.



This I don't agree with at all. You should be more consistent with the words you use. "Without a reason" does not equal "senseless."



Not quite what I said there either. I said that I want to keep living because "I'm having a hell of a good time," which I suppose could be paraphrased more or less as "seeking joy." But I wasn't suggesting that thought in itself gives life purpose. It was simply an answer to your fatalistic "Why should I continue on living?"

There might be some universal purpose for human existence, and there might not be. Frankly, I don't care either way. I just want to be happy for as long as possible.



I'm not sure what you mean by this.



What have I said that even remotely indicates a materialistic point of view?



Fair enough; I'll stop putting words in your mouth the minute you return the favor. Stop insisting that we're all a bunch of nihilists.

There's a huge range of atheistic philosophies out there, and you're insisting on shoving us all into a one-size-fits-all box so that you can dismiss us all at once, without considering any of the different ideas we might have.



I didn't ignore anything. None of your hand-wringing about death poses any significant challenges to atheism. I have asked myself many of those same questions before, and I'm sure most of the others in this thread have too. If you're looking for substantive conversation about it, I'd suggest that you stop shouting your pre-conceived notions at us, tone the angst down a little bit, and simply ask us.



That's an odd restriction to place on yourself in a thread called "Do you believe in God?"



Which part? The only statement of fact that I made was that I'm happy to be alive.

I am confused by what your actual position is.

But let me answer anyway:
Why must there be a reason? Because there is a reason to everything. If you do not agree, then maybe you shouldn't use reason to explain everything.

Of course. If life is without a reason, if life truly is reasonless, then all life would automatically become irrational, just like our own existence.

So you say that I should continue on living because of materialistic joy? Would that mean if I were to live in Afghanistan, or any other poor,war ravaged country, I should end my life, because only misery awaits me?

Should I end it when I know that I reached the highest joy possible? This is a very materialistic point of view, you know.
Come on, tell me of those so-called atheistic philosophies that do not end up in some sort of materialistic nihilism.

I want to postpone that discussion, but I will give you a bit: there is a cross cultural belief in ages that there are/is a/multiple supreme beings, since the beginning of humanity.
But what if you die?



Belief in an afterlife does not equal a belief in God. Buddhists can believe in Gods, but Buddhism is not God-centric.


I do not necessarily disbelieve in existence after death. I simply accept that there is no proof of continued existence or interaction with the physical Universe after death.




You do realize, of course, that nihilism is also a philosophical stance.




We exist because we exist. What we do with that existence, as I've said, is up to us.




What one American does, a continent away, has little effect on one Bangladeshi. One Bangladeshi, however, can have a big effect on other Bangladeshis.


-


Am I certain that I can influence the world? Yes, yes I am. Right now I'm influencing you. I'm also influencing a few dozen people possibly curious enough to read this post. I'm also influencing dozens of people who might read what I write on Facebook, hundreds who read what I write for work at my office, thousands who read what I write for work at the magazine, and tens of thousands who read what I write for the web.


Beyond that, though, I exert influence on my neighbors. On the woman who I buy my diet sodas from in the morning. On the janitors, co-workers and students I greet every day.


Just because there are a lot of people in the world doesn't mean individuals are worthless. In our daily lives, we still interact on a local level, and that's important.




Self-satisfaction and self-fulfillment. Sounds like very little, but in the end, that's what everything boils down to, whether you believe in God or not. And beyond that, satisfaction that you've furthered the cause of humanity.




Already answered. Because human life has value.




Let's play a game.


Do the lives of other humans have value?


Answer: No: Bam. You're dead. If you don't value other people's lives, there's no reason for us to value yours. No need to talk to you any further.


Answer: Yes. Cool. Now don't kill/rape/oppress us, and we'll return the favor.


Simple philosophical reciprocity. Mutual respect.


To go further down that avenue, perhaps you should read @Danoff 's Human Rights thread:


https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/human-rights.77925/


As an example of creating an entire ethical system from just that single premise.




Have fun, then.


-


It's interesting to note that in educational/developmental terms, there is the transition all children must go through where control moves from the external to the internal. Where discipline, routine and ethical values are no longer enforced by a teacher or parent, but are instead internalized, requiring no punishment-reward system to ensure compliance.


Ergo, adults shouldn't need to be paddled to ensure good behaviour.


-


Which brings up the question, again:


Without God, would you say that you have no internal control over your actions?


That you would act nihilistically, and without thought as to the consequences of what you do?


-


This is where the Christian religion, arguably, moves forward from the fire-and-brimstone of the Hebraic (Old Testament) religion that preceded it. In that one, control was completely external. "Do this or be punished."


Christianity has a more simple, and a more abstract rule: "Do unto others..." one that does not prescribe a certain set of actions, but which asks its followers to think about which actions are appropriate.


-


Humanism simply goes further and says that we should not love each other because God says so. We should love each other because it is simply the right thing to do.


-


Also, your fascination with death is telling.


Just because a book ends, doesn't mean there's no reason to read it. (I'm assuming you read books for fun).


You deny the existence of God but do not necessarily deny the existence of an afterlife?


I rape because I seek to fulfill my pleasure. I eat because I need to satisfy my hunger.

One doesn't exist because he exists. This argument makes no sense, you must explain yourself.


Surely, one does influence his surroundings and the world, by a tiny degree that is. I am saying that this influence suffered a huge blow; the influence of the average individual today is almost incomparable to one thousands of years ago. Surely, if I were to kill someone random in the bus, some people may grieve his or her demise. But in the end, that person would probably be too insignifcant for 99% of the people on this world. The average person does not matter, simply put.



You are making a fundamental error here. I have to value humans because they will otherwise punish me?

So if I can somehow avoid punishment, it's not that bad, right? If I pretend to care about human laws but rape and murder for pleasure without anyone noticing, it shouldn't matter to me, because nobody will find out about my crimes in the end.

Therefore, rape is not bad, but the consequences awaiting me. I can not exhort how bad this stance might be.


Now, I use extremes as a sort of rhetorical device. If somebody got offended by that before, I apologise and will refrain from it after this post.


There is no cause of humanity. Death is unavoidable. Humanity has no goal, you can pretend so, but biologically it has none except slowly coming to an end.


I am not Christian, although my religion shares similarities with the Christian religion. But let us ignore that for now.


I read books to seek knowledge, and I acquire knowledge by reading books. And when I finish it, I will have this knowledge. So- reading books does have a reason. In the grand picture, from a nihilistic point of view, it truly wouldn't matter in the end

Humanism has a simple problem: Not everyone cares about others. Very few actually, I noticed....
 
Last edited:

huskeR32

Calvinball MVP
Premium
2,596
United States
Lincoln, NE
huskeR_32
I am confused by what your actual position is.

That might be because I haven't told you what my position is. I've mostly been trying to see how well you understand your own.

But let me answer anyway:
Why must there be a reason? Because there is a reason to everything.

Why? Says who?

If you do not agree, then maybe you shouldn't use reason to explain everything.

That's two very different uses of the word "reason" that you're smashing together there.

Of course. If life is without a reason, if life truly is reasonless, then all life would automatically irrational, just like our own existence.

Again, why? Says who?

So you say that I should continue on living because of materialistic joy?

No. Just no.

Again, when have I said anything at all about materialism? Please point it out, or stop trying to force me into your one-size-fits-all box. It's stuffy in there, and I'd rather not be in there.

Also, I was very clear to point out that pursuing happiness was my answer to your question of why a person should choose to continue living if life didn't have some grand purpose. I'm not suggesting that you should have the same answer.

Would that mean if I were to live in Afghanistan, or any other poor,war ravaged country, I should end my life, because only misery awaits me?

This only follows from what I said if we presume that it's impossible for people in Afghanistan to be happy. That's not a presumption I'm inclined to make.

Should I end it when I know that I reached the highest joy possible?

Where are you getting this stuff from?

This is a very materialistic point of view, you know.

I'm not going to continue with this line of thinking until you define materialism. I suspect we're working from different definitions here.

Come on, tell me of those so-called atheistic philosophies that do not end up in some sort of materialistic nihilism.

Niky already tried to enlighten you about one, why don't you revisit that?

I want to postpone that discussion, but I will give you a bit: there is a cross cultural belief in ages that there are/is a/multiple supreme beings, since the beginning of humanity.

So?

But what if you die?

Then I'll no longer be alive.

What are you getting at?
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
That might be because I haven't told you what my position is. I've mostly been trying to see how well you understand your own.



Why? Says who?



That's two very different uses of the word "reason" that you're smashing together there.



Again, why? Says who?



No. Just no.

Again, when have I said anything at all about materialism? Please point it out, or stop trying to force me into your one-size-fits-all box. It's stuffy in there, and I'd rather not be in there.

Also, I was very clear to point out that pursuing happiness was my answer to your question of why a person should choose to continue living if life didn't have some grand purpose. I'm not suggesting that you should have the same answer.



This only follows from what I said if we presume that it's impossible for people in Afghanistan to be happy. That's not a presumption I'm inclined to make.



Where are you getting this stuff from?



I'm not going to continue with this line of thinking until you define materialism. I suspect we're working from different definitions here.



Niky already tried to enlighten you about one, why don't you revisit that?



So?



Then I'll no longer be alive.

What are you getting at?
I want to hear your position, because I am currently not defining my own position. I am simply arguing for the sake of disproving.

Are you saying there is not a reason to everything? You're very confusing here. Says who? Well, let's say "nature" :^)


If life is without reason, it wouldn't be irrational? So life is rational, is that what you are saying?
Let us be direct here: If you think life is either rational or has a reason, then I want to hear your answer.

Now then, pursuing happiness has to be achieved through various ways. What is the best way in pursuing happiness?
Similiarly,is happiness really a reason to continue on living? I would say otherwise. Happiness is only a moment- not everyone can and will be happy, it is only a small moment of joy. Materialistic persons pursuit happiness by acquiring wealth and pleasing themselves, the kind you see the most and the kind that the state wants to see the most,it is in the state's interest to see a consuming society.

Afghans who remain in Afghanistan are condemned a much more harsher life with more suffering and oppression, caused by humans who invade their country to ensure the continued consumption or "happiness" of their own people; but this is politics, which is something I can discuss with you- but do you really want that?

So? If God (s) would have been invented, belief in him would not have spread into every corner (:^)) of this world.

What I am getting it? Living life for the sake of happiness is not an answer to me, because I can choose to pursuit happiness by robbing and acquiring wealth through illicit means.
And living in the first place is inevitably meaningless, if I know that all life will come to an end, and when I know that there is no reason to live, and when I know that all of this has already been destined- by "nature" ;^)
 

ryzno

Slowest of the Fastest!!
Premium
5,547
United States
Dahlonega, GA
ryzno
@enigma911

I'm not even going to bother to quote your posts as some have been deleted, but as a non-believer of any religion, I disagree with almost everything you said.

I do not believe in any God or afterlife.
I do not hate God/s.
I don't run around wanting to 🤬 women. Though there have been a number of women, I wouldn't mind giving a nice slap on the butt to. But that's illegal. And it seems like you have a problem with authority.
I know I'm going to die and I don't really care when. Cause as you say and as one of the few animals on earth, we understand/expect death.

As far as a useful purpose in life. Mine use to be cooking for people. Now its making sure people get their newspaper before a rooster crows, keep someones car on the road for another month, or any random labor job I can do.
As far as science. Man wants to understand any/everything. I take in whatever knowledge I can.

Why should one live? Thats a damn good question. You know what I live for? My Father, my wife and my son. I can literally give a rats 🤬 what the "world" thinks about me. Or if I'm serving "a purpose".

I think your beliefs of nonbelievers are a fallacy.

A reason we exist, is to reproduce and provide for our family. No one says you have to help everyone. Or do anything for anyone.
But don't hinder another man cause you ain't happy.
As far as why you should live... Why die prematurely? It's gonna happen anyways.:sly:

Look around, an individual, can, influence the world.

If you want to rob and rape people. I would not recommend it cause it's illegal almost everywhere. And, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.:dopey:

May I ask why you do not want to make sure your children have a better life then you? Or have children? Pre-mid-life crisis maybe?

A person who thinks he's a God is a fool.

*I had a question regarding a word in your latest post, but that got deleted and I can understand why.*

I see that another of your posts got deleted/modified. And how few you have here.

I'm interested in reading your response.:cheers:

I'll sum it up on the 2nd to last new sentence, cause I'm tired of keeping up with deletes and new posts... It's illegal. Even though you disagree or feel it's okay to disregard the law. Let me tell you from personal experience, the concrete and steel, don't care about your "beliefs", you are stuck there till they let you out.
 
Last edited:

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
73,297
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
If life is without reason, it wouldn't be irrational?
No:
People do not reason the same way as one another, that's for sure - and what may seem reasonable to someone may seem unreasonable to someone else. But their reasoning can be both rational and irrational.

Beliefs are an example of something irrational. It's not rational to hold a position on something in spite of facts. Belief can be both reasonable and unreasonable though. In our part of the world it's reasonable to believe that you should be nice to one another because God commands it, but unreasonable to believe that you should throw homosexuals off tall buildings because God commands it - yet in other parts of the world it's wholly reasonable to throw homosexuals off tall buildings because God commands it. Both are irrational.
Reason and rationality are not the same thing.

However you've not established why it would matter if they are.
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
@enigma911

I'm not even going to bother to quote your posts as some have been deleted, but as a non-believer of any religion, I disagree with almost everything you said.

I do not believe in any God or afterlife.
I do not hate God/s.
I don't run around wanting to 🤬 women. Though there have been a number of women, I wouldn't mind giving a nice slap on the butt to. But that's illegal. And it seems like you have a problem with authority.
I know I'm going to die and I don't really care when. Cause as you say and as one of the few animals on earth, we understand/expect death.

As far as a useful purpose in life. Mine use to be cooking for people. Now its making sure people get their newspaper before a rooster crows, keep someones car on the road for another month, or any random labor job I can do.
As far as science. Man wants to understand any/everything. I take in whatever knowledge I can.

Why should one live? Thats a damn good question. You know what I live for? My Father, my wife and my son. I can literally give a rats 🤬 what the "world" thinks about me. Or if I'm serving "a purpose".

I think your beliefs of nonbelievers are a fallacy.

A reason we exist, is to reproduce and provide for our family. No one says you have to help everyone. Or do anything for anyone.
But don't hinder another man cause you ain't happy.
As far as why you should live... Why die prematurely? It's gonna happen anyways.:sly:

Look around, an individual, can, influence the world.

If you want to rob and rape people. I would not recommend it cause it's illegal almost everywhere. And, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.:dopey:

May I ask why you do not want to make sure your children have a better life then you? Or have children? Pre-mid-life crisis maybe?

A person who thinks he's a God is a fool.

*I had a question regarding a word in your latest post, but that got deleted and I can understand why.*

I see that another of your posts got deleted/modified. And how few you have here.

I'm interested in reading your response.:cheers:

I'll sum it up on the 2nd to last new sentence, cause I'm tired of keeping up with deletes and new posts... It's illegal. Even though you disagree or feel it's okay to disregard the law. Let me tell you from personal experience, the concrete and steel, don't care about your "beliefs", your stuck there till they let you out.
Don't worry, feel free to quote me as you want, alll of my posts are still here in a modified form.

This is a problem, people either ignore death or "forget" about it. This is because you do not expect death right now, but you will fear that moment one day. Just like how everything will inevitably will come to an end.

You are happy in this very moment, I appreciate that. You sense fulfillment because you bred and have a family, something which you are happy about. That's great!
But this is merely pleasing yourself. The problem is that, unless you delude yourself with momentous pleasure, you will recognkse the fact that what we are doing, how we live and that we even live is meaningless- death awaits at the end and you can't defeat it. You can please yourself now, but this will come to an end too.

Of course you wouldn't want to rape and steal from people! You know the consequences, growing up in a rich, western society.
The problem is that punishment and laws is not the reason why you should not commit these crimes; free speech and political parties can be forbidden by law, and in some countries the punishment is arguably worse than rape. This is regrettably not an argument.

No:

Reason and rationality are not the same thing.

However you've not established why it would matter if they are.
I see now. I do want to add that your example is flawed, because it relies on current events which are hotly debated in media, but I understand.

Please elaborate on your question.

Do you mean why it should matter if life is irrational and unreasonable?
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
73,297
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
I see now. I do want to add that your example is flawed, because it relies on current events which are hotly debated in media, but I understand.
... which isn't a flaw. Anything can be reasonable, depending on the circumstances of the individual doing the reasoning, precious few things can be rational. It doesn't matter if it's current events or history, if it's debated or accepted as fact. Anything can be reasonable but few things are rational. Reason is subjective, rationality is objective.

Sometimes what someone reasons also turns out to be rational - not because they've reasoned it, but because it's rational.
Please elaborate on your question.
I didn't ask a question, I made three statements.
Do you mean why it should matter if life is irrational and unreasonable?
If you like.

Your posts about the meaningless of life and the futility of it all given inevitable death seem to hinge on attaching great importance to the fact that there is no reason for life to exist (though it is eminently rational for it to do so, as evidenced by the fact that it does). You are in many ways attaching a significant meaning of your own - that life is meaningless - to the notion that we're simply a result of objective processes, and erring in the assumption that this is what everyone else does (or should do). Personally I think "Cool! What processes? Can I learn more about them? Can I recreate them? Can I improve on them? What else can I do with them?" rather than descending into Marvin levels of melancholy about the emptiness of existence, but I'm a very up atheist.
 

Joey D

Swedespeed
Premium
44,029
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
Of course you wouldn't want to rape and steal from people! You know the consequences, growing up in a rich, western society.
The problem is that punishment and laws is not the reason why you should not commit these crimes; free speech and political parties can be forbidden by law, and in some countries the punishment is arguably worse than rape. This is regrettably not an argument.

The reason people don't do these things is because of a moral and ethical compass. Even those without religion in their life know that these things aren't moral to do because they affect the community as a whole. If there wasn't a law against stealing, I doubt you'd see many people take too kindly to it.
 

huskeR32

Calvinball MVP
Premium
2,596
United States
Lincoln, NE
huskeR_32
I want to hear your position, because I am currently not defining my own position. I am simply arguing for the sake of disproving.

Are you saying there is not a reason to everything?

I suppose that depends on how you're using "reason" in this case, as you seem to be all over the place when it comes to that word.

I do not believe there is a significance behind the existence of human life. It evolved. Here we are. End of story.

The last paragraph of @Famine's post above actually lays it out quite nicely.

You're very confusing here. Says who? Well, let's say "nature" :^)

Let's not. You're going to need to come up with something a lot better than that.

Why must life have a reason?

If life is without reason, it wouldn't be irrational?

No.

So life is rational, is that what you are saying?

There is a rational explanation for my existence, yes. And no divine being is required.

Let us be direct here: If you think life is either rational or has a reason, then I want to hear your answer.

Yes it's rational. No, there's no particular significant reason that we're here.

Now then, pursuing happiness has to be achieved through various ways. What is the best way in pursuing happiness?

That's up to each individual. There is no "best" way to do so.

Similiarly,is happiness really a reason to continue on living?

I would say so.

I would say otherwise.

Why?

Happiness is only a moment- not everyone can and will be happy, it is only a small moment of joy. Materialistic persons pursuit happiness by acquiring wealth and pleasing themselves, the kind you see the most and the kind that the state wants to see the most,it is in the state's interest to see a consuming society.

Okay, with your definition of materialism established (thank you for doing so), I can safely say that I strongly disagree with you. There are countless ways to find joy in life without focusing on material wealth and possessions. If that's the only type of happiness you've yet known, I sincerely feel sad for you.

Afghans who remain in Afghanistan are condemned a much more harsher life with more suffering and oppression, caused by humans who invade their country to ensure the continued consumption or "happiness" of their own people; but this is politics, which is something I can discuss with you- but do you really want that?

I won't dispute any of that. Your initial statement implied that it's impossible for them to find any happiness at all, something that I am not inclined to join you in assuming.

So? If God (s) would have been invented, belief in him would not have spread into every corner (:^)) of this world.

Widespread belief in the existence of God proves that he exists? Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy will be thrilled to find themselves suddenly among the living.

What I am getting it? Living life for the sake of happiness is not an answer to me

Great. It is to me.

because I can choose to pursuit happiness by robbing and acquiring wealth through illicit means.

So? Unless you're suggesting that that's the only way to find happiness, then you don't really have much of a point here.
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
... which isn't a flaw. Anything can be reasonable, depending on the circumstances of the individual doing the reasoning, precious few things can be rational. It doesn't matter if it's current events or history, if it's debated or accepted as fact. Anything can be reasonable but few things are rational. Reason is subjective, rationality is objective.

Sometimes what someone reasons also turns out to be rational - not because they've reasoned it, but because it's rational.I didn't ask a question, I made three statements.If you like.

Your posts about the meaningless of life and the futility of it all given inevitable death seem to hinge on attaching great importance to the fact that there is no reason for life to exist (though it is eminently rational for it to do so, as evidenced by the fact that it does). You are in many ways attaching a significant meaning of your own - that life is meaningless - to the notion that we're simply a result of objective processes, and erring in the assumption that this is what everyone else does (or should do). Personally I think "Cool! What processes? Can I learn more about them? Can I recreate them? Can I improve on them? What else can I do with them?" rather than descending into Marvin levels of melancholy about the emptiness of existence, but I'm a very up atheist.
These issues are not like as you might think.
Namely, that this is not happening because God commands them. But this is politics, another topic. If you want to, I can talk with you about politics- but do you really want that?

Your language is quite confusing to me, to be honest. English is neither my first nor third language. But from what I see, you merely analyse my reasoning, which seems to be a subjective thing, coming to the conclusion that I should be seeing things rather positively.

To me, you are simply evading my assertions, that life is meaningless, death is inevitable and there is no reason for life to exist, even though there should be. It's not really an answer to ignore things.


The reason people don't do these things is because of a moral and ethical compass. Even those without religion in their life know that these things aren't moral to do because they affect the community as a whole. If there wasn't a law against stealing, I doubt you'd see many people take too kindly to it.

Where is this moral and ethical compass coming from? I do know that this was probably debated before, I want to know your answer.
This still won't stop me from simply seeking happiness at the cost of others, if nobody sees me doing it.

... and morality is both reasonable and rational.

Paging @Danoff :D
Nietzsche would probably argue otherwise.

I suppose that depends on how you're using "reason" in this case, as you seem to be all over the place when it comes to that word.

I do not believe there is a significance behind the existence of human life. It evolved. Here we are. End of story.

The last paragraph of @Famine's post above actually lays it out quite nicely.



Let's not. You're going to need to come up with something a lot better than that.

Why must life have a reason?



No.



There is a rational explanation for my existence, yes. And no divine being is required.



Yes it's rational. No, there's no particular significant reason that we're here.



That's up to each individual. There is no "best" way to do so.



I would say so.



Why?



Okay, with your definition of materialism established (thank you for doing so), I can safely say that I strongly disagree with you. There are countless ways to find joy in life without focusing on material wealth and possessions. If that's the only type of happiness you've yet known, I sincerely feel sad for you.



I won't dispute any of that. Your initial statement implied that it's impossible for them to find any happiness at all, something that I am not inclined to join you in assuming.



Widespread belief in the existence of God proves that he exists? Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy will be thrilled to find themselves suddenly among the living.



Great. It is to me.



So? Unless you're suggesting that that's the only way to find happiness, then you don't really have much of a point here.
So- all existence has no meaning?
This sort of thinking WILL lead to nihilism.
Why must life have a reason? Because otherwise, living is unreasonable. There would be no need to continue on living, if I wouldn't see any reason to; for example if I lost my family or am in a deep financial crisis that I won't be able to come out from.

Problem: few people think like you, few people want to have kids today, few people can't seek joy except through marerial means; because for most people material things matter. I frankly do not care about you particularly, I care about the majority of people. And this is the state of citizens of some countries today.
There are other reasons too why these countries in such a state; for example the fact that societies with a high consumption rate are societies modern states want, but I will disregard them for now.
There is no cross cultural belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, nor is there historical proof for such.

Again, I don't care about you. But I can't accept that people might come to this conclusion, because there is no reason for them to pursuit happiness disregarding other people's lives, because they simply don't care. Many of us in the West do so either knowingly or unknowingly. I picked the example of Bangladeshis for a certain reason, and I can gurantee you that most people here do know about their working conditions here- they simply do not care because it is not affecting them. Why should they? It is I who matter more than them.
 

Joey D

Swedespeed
Premium
44,029
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
Where is this moral and ethical compass coming from? I do know that this was probably debated before, I want to know your answer.
This still won't stop me from simply seeking happiness at the cost of others, if nobody sees me doing it.

Ancient civilisation and even ancient hunters/gathers. If you stole, killed, raped, or did anything else to harm the group you weren't contributing and you weren't helping the survival of the group as a whole. After tens of thousands of years it just became a standard for humankind. Yes, there will always be people that attempt to go against the grain, but they will almost always will be shunned and punished by society for not contributing to the betterment of the group.
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
Ancient civilisation and even ancient hunters/gathers. If you stole, killed, raped, or did anything else to harm the group you weren't contributing and you weren't helping the survival of the group as a whole. After tens of thousands of years it just became a standard for humankind. Yes, there will always be people that attempt to go against the grain, but they will almost always will be shunned and punished by society for not contributing to the betterment of the group.
This isn't called moral or ethical compass; that's called survival instinct. Of course one would get punished for stealing or killing; ancient civilisation and primal groups depended on every single individual.
Today, this has changed though.

What bothers me is that there is no reason for people to continue to "abide by the rules" , because all of this has become irrelevant by now. There is nothing restraining me to commit the most heinous crimes, if nobody finds out.
 

SlipZtrEm

GTP Admin
Staff Emeritus
27,384
Canada
Toronto
NewAesthetic
SlipZtrEm
What bothers me is that there is no reason for people to continue to "abide by the rules" , because all of this has become irrelevant by now. There is nothing restraining me to commit the most heinous crimes, if nobody finds out.

You've been told numerous times in the past few pages why people do it. That you won't accept it does not make it any less valid.

If this is your long-winded attempt at relating a lack of belief in God with a lack of basic morals and human decency, there's literally millions of examples of this not being the case.
 

enigma911

(Banned)
14
Germany
Germany
You've been told numerous times in the past few pages why people do it. That you won't accept it does not make it any less valid.

If this is your long-winded attempt at relating a lack of belief in God with a lack of basic morals and human decency, there's literally millions of examples of this not being the case.
You're confusing something here. The only thing I am not accepting is that life and existence is meaningless. The rest is open to debate.