Do you believe in God?

[GBO Possum]

I said:-

Thank God for cancer, tape worms, elephantiasis, Ebola, and so on right through to the common cold. And for tsunamis, earthquakes, avalanches, droughts and floods. And all of those things insurance companies call Acts of God.

Yep, all "good". The good god made them all. Thanks.

And got this response:-

You can thank you parents for that. Now that you know you will die, you can thank God for giving you an option not to die in your sin, and perish for all eternity. If God is True and Just as He says, well then, if He gives the option for eternal life, well do expect the option for eternal death. Choice is yours, believe it or not.

My parents carry a lot of blame, I guess. Who knew.

 

[GBO Possum]

Another "who knew" moment today. Got an email with this subject line:-

Spoiler: The bible warns

The Bible Warns: Obama Will Not Finish His Second Term

 

[GBO Possum]

 

[CodeRedR51]

Finally a mainstream media outlet has the guts to say something.

 

[dylansan]

Yep. I've never had a problem with people offering their thoughts or prayers to people when things get bad, but politicians have a responsibility to come up with something a little more substantial.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Finally a mainstream media outlet has the guts to say something.

Yes, I wonder if they will apply the same veracity to a future headline if it turns out this massacre was carried out in the name of God. Any bets?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, I wonder if they will apply the same veracity to a future headline if it turns out this massacre was carried out in the name of God. Any bets?

Why would it make any difference? Would it be okay to be so offensive as to offer "prayers" as if somehow storybooks would bring the dead alive just because the attackers were as deluded?

 

[BobK]

Yep. I've never had a problem with people offering their thoughts or prayers to people when things get bad, but politicians have a responsibility to come up with something a little more substantial.

However, expressions like that will result in more votes gained than lost. And that's the real reason why they say it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why would it make any difference? Would it be okay to be so offensive as to offer "prayers" as if somehow storybooks would bring the dead alive just because the attackers were as deluded?

What makes offering thoughts and prayers offensive beyond the usual, "I am offended by anything I don't agree with" crowd? Would it be just as offensive if someone said, "My thoughts are with you and your family"? If we're going to laud a news agency that is in the business of making money for somehow taking a higher moral ground, then I'm interested to see if that same higher moral ground applies to all references to God.

 

[JKgo]

...That headline's a bit reactionary, the way I see it.

It's a twitter message, so I'd think simple, short and well meaning words would be better than "#GunControltoPreventAnotherSanBern" and get accused by others for opportunistic electioneering...

Seriously, in situations like this, you are mocked upon either way if you're a politician angling for one more vote...

And since this is a "...God" thread:

{Obviously Sarcasm at work...}

 

[MatskiMonk]

God and Guns....

Two things that probably shouldn't mix...

America seems to be founded on both.

 

[LeMansAid]

"Thoughts" are just as meaningless in this context. We need to be more mature than to get caught up in viewing our world through a bias of post religious angst.

Yep. I've never had a problem with people offering their thoughts or prayers to people when things get bad, but politicians have a responsibility to come up with something a little more substantial.

And the general public should be demanding substance more steadfastly than only immediately after such incidents. Calling politicians out then getting back to comfortable lives without a second thought/action ultimately amounts to "meaningless platitudes" on the part of that said public. In turn, if the Daily News follows the public's lead, supply and demand rationale for future articles and front pages will mean that this story will figure as a platitude of equal meaninglessness.

Far too many of us are cowards in our comfort.

 

[Danoff]

"End gun scourge". As though guns are the problem, and as though any of those politicians can end guns. Why do so many pretend that politicians can just ignore the constitution. It is illegal for them to attempt to ban guns. Get over it.

"Thoughts" are just as meaningless in this context.

Agreed.

 

[GBO Possum]

It's actually worth READING the constitution. It's enlightening. The NRA has bought a reinterpretation.

 

[CodeRedR51]

As far as I'm aware, the constitution can be revised with an amendment. Extremely rare but it is possible. However, with a congress full of republicans, it'll never happen.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's actually worth READING the constitution. It's enlightening. The NRA has bought a reinterpretation.

What reinterpretation did they buy?

 

[Denur]

Interesting how the American Constitution rightfully found its way into this thread. I don't know any other country that reveres its constitution so much as the USA. Spending a year in high school as a foreign exchange student, I couldn't help but feeling that the kids were being brainwashed into admiring the Constitution, along with the daily ritual of pledging to the Flag. "One nation, under God".

 

[GBO Possum]

What reinterpretation did they buy?

Here it is. Oh, and if God happens by, ask him to click the link too

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/how-nra-rewrote-second-amendment

 

[polysmut]

As far as I'm aware, the constitution can be revised with an amendment. Extremely rare but it is possible.

Yes. The Second Ammendment is an example in itself.

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms and was adopted on December 15, 1791, as part of the first ten amendments contained in theBill of Rights.

 

[DCP]

But as somebody without a religion in my life I don't have to have a solid set of beliefs. I can and will change my mind whenever I please. What I take to the grave is neither here nor there, because once I'm dead I'm worm food and couldn't care less about anything. Dead is dead.



Sins? What sins? I'm a pretty good person morally, I don't need 'sins' explained in a fantasy story to know right from wrong. Besides, the sins you talk about are still viewed from one perspective (that of the Bible) and are an opinion on morality, an opinion which is mostly outdated.

Are you saying if you didn't have the bible you would kill, steal and rape? Of course you wouldn't because you have a sense of morality. Most good people try not to do things they wouldn't want done to them, religious or not.

If I don't believe in your silly idea of sin then how on earth does that bother me when I dead?

Ahh yes, the self claimed morally good person. Obviously your own standards will justify your own goodness. Judge yourself according to the high standards set by God, and then see why your'e destined for condemnation, and understand why you NEED salvation. Hopefully you'll get it. Remember, God doesn't judge by the outward appearance. He judges a mans thoughts and heart. Since you hide from family and friends, the things you do in the "dark", makes it all good for you because they don't know.

Why must it be a choice, exactly? I mean, saying it doesn't make it so.

Unless you write a book about it.



How about questioning why modern day humans continue to be punished for the actions of some great-to-the-nth-degree ancestor, if forgiveness is such a big deal?

Why are we supposed to forgive them, but God is absolutely never ever going to let that one go? Talk about setting an awful example.

"Hi, I'm God. I expect you to forgive all others, including the people responsible for getting you into this mess. But I'm not going to forgive them, or forgive you for their mistakes which I will continue to blame on you unless you do exactly what you're told."

Do you find that your brain hurts from all the doublethink, or does it just come naturally?

Can you see your flaw. God is willing to forgive any and everyone my friend. Just simply ask, and have a desire to change your sinful ways. Is that too difficult for you to comprehend? Is it so hard to call on God, yet so easy to go and sin?

But we do not choose. We just think we do. If it's already known (by God) what our choice will be, then we're just following a pre-ordained script.

If that is the case, do you think you can change your choice, so that God knows you will change and seek salvation?

 

[CodeRedR51]

If that is the case, do you think you can change your choice, so that God knows you will change and seek salvation?

It's funny how you come in here and bump this thread when it's been real quiet lately, then when people start jumping on you for answers you disappear again. How long you sticking around this time?

 

[W3H5]

Ahh yes, the self claimed morally good person. Obviously your own standards will justify your own goodness. Judge yourself according to the high standards set by God, and then see why your'e destined for condemnation, and understand why you NEED salvation. Hopefully you'll get it. Remember, God doesn't judge by the outward appearance. He judges a mans thoughts and heart. Since you hide from family and friends, the things you do in the "dark", makes it all good for you because they don't know.

So you're saying that anybody without god is immoral and will kill, rape and steal because they don't have book to tell them otherwise? Well I'm happy to say that you are factually wrong. If every nonbeliever is not bound by a religious moral standard then why aren't all atheist, or any one that isn't following your branch of scifi, out there killing at will or raping everyone they meet?
You're saying that without your morals given to you by god you would be out there killing and raping too and that your faith is the only think keeping you from that? Bitch, please.

How dare you mention my "family and friends" like you know anything about me. The ignorance you possess and the nonsense you spout is retarded.

Again, "high standards of god", dude, read your bible. Your god is evil and has persecuted the very people he supposedly created. Your god has pulled more dick moves than most of humanity has ever managed. Slavery, genocide, outright xenophobia; your god is not of high standards. I've got to the point now where I won't even bother capitalising the word as a show of my dislike for you god.

You also fail, again, to understand that to those of us who don't believe in your god we don't give two ****s about salvation because it is irrelevant. You don't believe in Scientology, do you? So it's irrelevant to you that their (scientologists) idea that earth was built by aliens and you would consider it BS. Well that's how I feel about you fantasy stories.

I'm glad you cropped up just now since it award voting time and I think there's one award with your name on it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Is it so hard to call on God, yet so easy to go and sin?

The first is impossible while the second is possible. That means that sinning is infinitely easier than making an impossible call on God.

Ahh yes, the self claimed morally good person. Obviously your own standards will justify your own goodness. Judge yourself according to the high standards set by God, and then see why your'e destined for condemnation, and understand why you NEED salvation. Hopefully you'll get it. Remember, God doesn't judge by the outward appearance. He judges a mans thoughts and heart. Since you hide from family and friends, the things you do in the "dark", makes it all good for you because they don't know.

Claptrap.

 

[Imari]

God is willing to forgive any and everyone my friend. Just simply ask, and have a desire to change your sinful ways.

Why should I ask to be forgiven for the sins of my forefathers? They're not my sinful ways. I can desire all I want for my forefathers to change their sinful ways, but they're dead and gone.

God, if he exists, has already had his merry way with them, so why is he still persecuting me for their crimes?

 

[Parker]

Interesting how the American Constitution rightfully found its way into this thread. I don't know any other country that reveres its constitution so much as the USA. Spending a year in high school as a foreign exchange student, I couldn't help but feeling that the kids were being brainwashed into admiring the Constitution, along with the daily ritual of pledging to the Flag. "One nation, under God".

Is that a bad thing? I'd say the Constitution is a fairly important document and every citizen should be aware of and understand exactly what it is and does. Or maybe we're just brainwashed, who knows?

 

[Denur]

Is that a bad thing?

No, not at all. Merely an observation.

every citizen should be aware of and understand exactly what it is and does

Why?

 

[BobK]

But we do not choose. We just think we do. If it's already known (by God) what our choice will be, then we're just following a pre-ordained script.

If that is the case, do you think you can change your choice, so that God knows you will change and seek salvation?

Whether or not I "change" my choice is irrelevant. God already knows what my final choice will be, right? Any interim "choices" I "make" are simply extra lines in this script I'm following.

 

[Imari]

How many of you are willing to die right now for something, anything? Given the choice would you convert to Islam or prefer to be killed and die an atheist or for your own beliefs?

I would prefer to do what it takes to survive, and continue that way. I find nothing noble about allowing yourself to be slaughtered for your professed beliefs when you could simply lie and carry on.

However, I suspect that you'll find that most people have at least one thing that they're willing to die for. The more interesting question is how many are willing to die right now for nothing? Being killed as a Christian for refusing to "convert" to Islam achieves very little. Falsely converting to Islam and working to take down the machinery from inside potentially achieves a lot. So why would you throw your life away?

Perhaps many of you do not believe you are a son of GOD or that you are indeed precious and loved.

I am precious and loved by many, but I have no evidence that God is one of them.

Some may prefer to accept you have no soul, their is no eternity. Basically to many their was no creation, life came from nothing and organised itself from nothing.

Perhaps you don't understand atheism. It's not about preference, or what we believe. It's that this is what we have evidence for, and other things are unknown. There is no evidence for a soul. There is no evidence for an afterlife. There is no evidence of creation as laid out in the Bible.

Nobody claims that life came from nothing. Nobody claims that it organised itself from nothing. We simply don't understand clearly how it came to be. This is not a binary choice, just because there are not clear scientifically rigorous answers does not mean that the biblical explanations are true. It's completely reasonable for someone to say "I do not have enough information yet to make a reasonable assessment of the situation, I shall hold my opinion in abeyance".

Christians and theists in general are awful at this. They need to have an answer now. Anything that doesn't have an answer, they will find one from their texts or history.

This is not good practise. We are humans. Sometimes we just don't know.

So if all this is what you believe then what value is your own life/existence. Is it not rather pointless/meaningless too and nothing more than a slither of time across millions of years in an infinite universe?

The value of my life and existence is the joy that I experience, and the happiness that I bring to others. After I die, I would hope that the world would be a better place for having had me on it, even if in a few hundred years there will be no one who remembers me.

I'm OK with that. It doesn't scare me. It does scare a lot of people, and so they refuse to even consider it as a possible option. Nobody knows what, if anything, happens after we die, but anyone who is being really honest with themselves has to come to grips with the very real possibility that there is nothing.

Perhaps then love you have for others or family and they have for you is nothing more than chemical reactions, again it is meaningless, it is all pointless?

Why would love being chemical reactions make it pointless?

I find that to be a rather shallow way to look at or live life and I mean no offence by this but in comparison to the beliefs of a Christian as an example I understand how precious and special life is and we ALL are.

No, you're simply unable to comprehend how people who view life in a very different way to you could have just as strong an appreciation of life and relationships as you do. Presumably you do this to try and reinforce your own image that your beliefs and community are somehow special or privileged as compared to others.

The reality is that most people end up feeling more or less the same way, they simply have different justifications for the way they feel. Christians say that their love of God is where their view of life comes from, for atheists it comes from their appreciation of humanity. To try and diminish either because of the reasons why they feel that way is just rude.

I may not agree with the reasons why you appreciate life, but I'll never try and tell you that your appreciation is less than mine. I'd like it if you could try and find the empathy within you to attempt do the same. You claim to be a Christian, start acting like it.

 

[Mr Latte]

* Sorry if you only seen the quote below and no reply at the time. Plenty for you or others to chew over.

I would prefer to do what it takes to survive, and continue that way. I find nothing noble about allowing yourself to be slaughtered for your professed beliefs when you could simply lie and carry on.

Interesting reply and thanks for sharing...

So you will abandon your own personal beliefs to support your existence. This to me tells me you value your life more than you do your beliefs. The difference being I will die for what I believe in and have faith in.

For me its a question if you have, or do not have faith in the belief you support. If indeed you have faith in a belief and have truly committed yourself to it then for that person I am sure it is seen as an honourable death. Survival instincts are indeed human, although I find nothing noble or self rewarding of living a life you are forced into neither. Especially one that you describe which does not give you freedom of choice or you do not believe in, just to continue living.

However, I suspect that you'll find that most people have at least one thing that they're willing to die for. The more interesting question is how many are willing to die right now for nothing? Being killed as a Christian for refusing to "convert" to Islam achieves very little. Falsely converting to Islam and working to take down the machinery from inside potentially achieves a lot. So why would you throw your life away?

What proof have you that it achieves very little? You refer to Christian faith so perhaps for the Christian it actually achieves a lot. You want to live by facts then fact is you can not say what it achieves, we can only make differing statements based on our own differing beliefs.

Take down the machinery from the inside? Again you do not seem to understand faith in a GOD. A commitment to something greater than yourself. So do you then propose to wipe out every Muslim practising that faith or how do you convert them are they then not entering the same cycle they forced you into, the only difference being the belief varies and who is dictating it, so where does it end? I wont/cant convert you, faith does not come from the mind my friend, so how to you expect to convert others if they are true to their faith?

I am precious and loved by many, but I have no evidence that God is one of them.

This is the key factor..
I agree that you very much are, indeed and you are very much blessed that you have such love of friends or family around you. Curious though, do you ever wonder how deep is their love for you? If you asked these people, if they would suffer what Christ suffered to show you their love for you, would they do it. Our to put it another way, would you suffer the same for them? You will not like discussing this (he will be rolling his eyes by now) but from my perspective my faith is based on my relationship and belief in Christ and what he done for me, for you and everyone. I do not know of other religious figures that apparently did such from various scriptures or other scriptures that cover the aspects of creation/humanity/life more than the Bible does. My faith is based on love itself.

Curious however regarding your first comment. Would you abandon these loved ones in a situation that maintained your own survival but their death? Or would you sacrifice your life for the ones you love? What would they do for you? If you understand this, then you might begin to understand more what the basis of "faith" is and that you would die for what is the most personal/precious things to you. If you did give you life for their safety, I wonder would you still say you see nothing noble in it?

So if you have an understanding of love but you can not see it, you can not prove it, I am amused that you believe in it. That you or others can so easily with your intellect get offended by something (love) yet you do not have proof of it existing, nor how or where it comes from.
If you or others agree you believe in love, have experienced it then by right I could in fairness say you are being hypocrites, yes? So if their is no scientific proof of love can you please explain it.

Perhaps you don't understand atheism. It's not about preference, or what we believe. It's that this is what we have evidence for, and other things are unknown. There is no evidence for a soul. There is no evidence for an afterlife. There is no evidence of creation as laid out in the Bible.

I would agree yes I need to lean more about it to understand more the way an atheist thinks.
Likewise perhaps you do not understand faith so much.

With proper proof, faith would not exist their would be no need for it. If you agree on this then you should see the importance or value a person has to have to believe from faith alone.
Believing is not always seeing, knowing, understanding. You believe that their are alternatives to creation, yet you have no proof otherwise that creation itself is correct. The point is you choose to refuse to accept it as one as their is not enough evidence to support such, nor enough evidence to dispel it. So the option is to seek alternatives.

Nobody claims that life came from nothing. Nobody claims that it organised itself from nothing. We simply don't understand clearly how it came to be. This is not a binary choice, just because there are not clear scientifically rigorous answers does not mean that the biblical explanations are true. It's completely reasonable for someone to say "I do not have enough information yet to make a reasonable assessment of the situation, I shall hold my opinion in abeyance".

Very good answer. May I say it is easy to label "atheists" all in one box but equally as easy to label "Christian" beliefs and not get mixed up between "Christian based religion" and true Christianity the truth in the original scriptures. Religion is man searching for God, Christianity is God searching for man. You may not fully understand if you never come to realise how much GOD does love you and wants you to believe in him. You can ignore him, despise the idea of such, hate what you see in so called religious Christians but their is nothing you can do to stop him loving you.

The greatest minds of the planet never have had enough information. Yet to this day, knowledge/science has never proved (any god) does not exist neither. So if you are a person looking for solutions/answers can you tell me why then do so many atheists attack scripture and you yourself seeing some of your responses to me clearly do not fully understand parts of it. Is it the "religious" factor that gets peoples back up the most? You do not have data to prove we all live in the matrix neither (lol) but you wont go around mocking or hunting down to ridiculing people that do like that concept. The Christian has to put up with the constant mocking.

I can often see it as possibly offending their intellect. I would also say that many have greater intellect than the average Christian too. Certainly in my case here, yet the greatest intellects in the world can not provide a reason or valid explanation.

Christians and theists in general are awful at this. They need to have an answer now. Anything that doesn't have an answer, they will find one from their texts or history.

This is not good practise. We are humans. Sometimes we just don't know.

Again I agree. I suppose you and I will get the answer when when are dead.
The difference is (I might) have an insurance policy and pension, lol.

The value of my life and existence is the joy that I experience, and the happiness that I bring to others. After I die, I would hope that the world would be a better place for having had me on it, even if in a few hundred years there will be no one who remembers me.

I'm OK with that. It doesn't scare me. It does scare a lot of people, and so they refuse to even consider it as a possible option. Nobody knows what, if anything, happens after we die, but anyone who is being really honest with themselves has to come to grips with the very real possibility that there is nothing.

So right away from this I can see you have passion. What you describe though, is it not love? Do you ever tell the people you love them or they love you? I expect you believe these emotions/actions to have value, you believe it has importance and something you not only enjoy sharing but experiencing from others, yes?

Can I ask did you learn to get all these emotions from books or studying? Are you sure it is not just something the mind generates and is based from chemicals/brainwaves or body functions. Seriously are you certain your feelings are genuine. I ask for proof can you give me the data or is it you cant explain scientifically why but you know, you feel its just their, it grew within you and it is part of what you are?

Why would love being chemical reactions make it pointless?

If its just chemical reactions then love itself does not exist neither, feelings/values that you hold important to you and you are defending may as well be binary data. If we only had memories but not actual feelings what value would the memories be? I ask then what is the point/value of life if life has no point/value? We just exist, we just die, the cycle just keeps going.

No, you're simply unable to comprehend how people who view life in a very different way to you could have just as strong an appreciation of life and relationships as you do. Presumably you do this to try and reinforce your own image that your beliefs and community are somehow special or privileged as compared to others.

The reality is that most people end up feeling more or less the same way, they simply have different justifications for the way they feel. Christians say that their love of God is where their view of life comes from, for atheists it comes from their appreciation of humanity. To try and diminish either because of the reasons why they feel that way is just rude.

I may not agree with the reasons why you appreciate life, but I'll never try and tell you that your appreciation is less than mine. I'd like it if you could try and find the empathy within you to attempt do the same. You claim to be a Christian, start acting like it.

Here I will start with the last paragraph first.
I believe I offered an opinion, nothing more, I was not trying to be hostile.
Although rather than call you all sinners, tell you that your gonna burn in hell, that you are evil and you need to do this or that etc. To be fair this is not the case, lol give me a break. However yes the reaction has angered some you in referring to life potentially being meaningless.

"In a box" What does a Christian act like, your interpretation of a Christian may differ to others. Just as you may differ from other atheists. Yes we are human, we are full of faults, we will say, act and do sometimes things in different ways and we will not agree on certain things. May I add that I am full of sin, I am weak in many ways, I have bad habits, I have personality attributes I dislike BUT I am no better than you in anyway or seen as anymore valuable. It is easy to take each other up the wrong way.

I can however take note that many religious church organisations see themselves above others, that they are greater or of more importance. This my friend is all lies, it is man made doctrine which religion is based upon. Rather than take note of what religious churches or cultures tend to say or do. I suggest you consider studying more into what Christ himself said. If he himself was against "religion" and what "his" values where then you will very much find the ideology of "world peace", true "equality" loving each other and who our true father is.

The Bible says love is the greatest thing in all creation, I am glad you have some of it in your life. Many people feel so unloved, hurt, lost, of no importance, no value and I know this from personal experience and having been right at the edge just a few years ago.

I do appreciate learning to understand more in the way athiests see things and while I can respect your opinion even if we disagree on a lot of issues we have at least found a common interest in love of family/friends and others.

Depending on your own personal interests to discover more in searching for answers, our if hungry to find new understanding. If I suggested you try searching for where you love comes from and to test for yourself if you have a soul. Depends if you are willing to let go of reason beyond your brain and seek a new adventure.

I can pray for you and hope your life continues to be blessed.
You can ridicule and curse me if you want.

Thanks however if you followed through this and if we have to agree on disagreeing well lets avoid further insults.

 

[Imari]

...

Would you like to add something to the discussion? I think there's ample room for informative dialogue, starting with your misunderstanding of what atheism actually entails.