Equal Opportunity vs. Equal Results (what's the right way towards Equality?)

[Johnnypenso]

You realise the doctor kind of descides how much money to ask? What reason could there be for the same treatment be worth with one person and not be worth with the other? Because this is what you claim.

If not you don't even realise how the civilised world handles healthcare and you'd just be arguing against your imagination if a descenr healthcaresystem.

Also the reason you think of is for example christians refusing to serve gay people? Or are you again just going to deal in strawman hypoteticals?

Speaking of discriminating against customers, for years I had several retail stores and routinely would not serve an entire class of customers - those with no shirt and/or no shoes. In fact it's quite common in this part of the world to do so. Would you have an issue with that form of discrimination?

Because sending all my money to africa would also mean the end of my life...
On top of the fact that this actually is a false analogy as sending money to africa is me losing resources and the doctor helping said person is him gaining resources...

So my reason to not send money to africa is not valid as a reason for the doctor to not help a person...

Again give me a concrete reason... Or are yoy to ashamed to come out for your opinion as you know it wouldn't be a valid reason...

Allowing people to discriminate based on their religion is not far from that theocracy but yeah that was a bit hyperbolic sorry.


And then you seriously like to question if a docror helping a person in need is moral?

And again how do you claim a doctor leaving a person in agonising pain, just because he finds that person not worthy of treatment for whatever reason the doctor sees fit, as not harmfull for mankind?

You have the chance to help a person every second hahahahaha, yes but at what cost? My own life? My own oppertunity to feed myself? Seriously arguing in these hypoteticals is irrelevant and usually only happens if people are ashamed of their opinions. So please spill your opinion or stop trolling.we can keep making up hypoteticals to counter eachother but it would just be strawmans...

Interesting to note your desire to compel the giving of services for moral reasons is, in your case, limited to less than $100 or about 5-15 hours of labour at minimum wage in most western countries. I guess it's because you're not a doctor...or something.

 

[Mr Tree]

Oh, so you're cool if they ask for $1M to treat a gay person but only $100 to treat a heterosexual? I didn't think so. Why don't you try vetting your responses against your own arguments?

I need to get this of my chest hefor I read your post further...
I told you if yoy don't understand the system I am advocating ask for clarification. So far you've been nothing but a troll (and that's beeing nice because I havr other word in my mind) arguing against something I do not believe in......


Explain how the same service for diffrent people can cost a diffrent amouny of money? Are you just insane?

Oh, so you're cool if they ask for $1M to treat a gay person but only $100 to treat a heterosexual? I didn't think so. Why don't you try vetting your responses against your own arguments?



Whatever reason you want. Have you ever given to charity? Why did you give to that charity and not another? Have you ever decided to work for a company? Why did you decide to work for them and not another? Why is one cause worth more to you than another?



I don't know what you're trying to say here, something got lost in translation.



You and I right now, this very instant, are refusing to help people in need. Why are we doing that? I'll tell you why I am, and then I'll tell you why you are. And then I'll tell you why you think this is different from the healthcare example.

I'm choosing not to help certain people in need because I realize that I am not obliged to. My life belongs to me, and I can spend it how I see fit. So when I give my time and labor (via money or literal time and labor) to charity, I do so having researched a charity that I like... based on characteristics I choose according to my own personal opinions or beliefs. I limit how much time and labor I give based on whatever my comfort level is, recognizing that there is nothing inconsistent with my moral philosophy by doing so.

You choose not to help certain people in need because you view it abstractly as a problem that is too large for one person to solve. You feel obliged to help, but know that you can't do it by yourself, so you throw your hands up put your obligation onto others in the form of "society" and say to yourself that since you can't make enough of a difference, it's not your problem. You then choose not to apply this reasoning to specific case scenarios (which is a real problem if you're presented with a specific case scenario in Africa) and think that it is inhuman to pass by a specific person who is in need, despite the fact that it is somehow not inhuman to pass by 10,000 specific people who are in need. You allow this dichotomy to persist by choosing not to evaluate these positions against themselves because it is an uncomfortable thing to think about.

You differentiate healthcare because you can personalize it. The people in Africa are faceless people in a far off place and could not be you, personally, needing help. A doctor choosing not to help people in Africa won't be denying services to you. But a doctor in your country choosing not to help people who look or think like you do could be you, and that bothers you, because you fundamentally believe that your well being is the responsibility of others, which is wrong.

How'd I do? Is it wrong? I know you'll say it's wrong and try to give examples as to why it's wrong. I'm interested to hear your reasons because right now that's my working hypothesis on your mental state.

No i deferentiate healthcare because a doctor has an 'office' I can go to as a client if he's open.
He has no right to deny me healthcare (and yes @WhoosierGirl ) unless he can find medical reasons not to do so.
They can't fully choose their income but have large amounts of freedom considering it...
In other words I'm asking a doctor to do his job, wow what a weird concept...

I know the system is a but more complex then how I phrased it, but the system sure as hell doesn't work as the system @Danoff is trying to put down..

Speaking of discriminating against customers, for years I had several retail stores and routinely would not serve an entire class of customers - those with no shirt and/or no shoes. In fact it's quite common in this part of the world to do so. Would you have an issue with that form of discrimination?

Interesting to note your desire to compel the giving of services for moral reasons is, in your case, limited to less than $100 or about 5-15 hours of labour at minimum wage in most western countries. I guess it's because you're not a doctor...or something.

Would I have issues wirh said discrimination? Well it's not discrimination it's a dress code.
I do not fully agree with dresscodes but saying a dresscode is immoral would be a bridge to far.

The desire to compel people to help limited to 100€? That's an assumption. A wrong one and one that rubs me very personally!

I invest time and money in suicideprevention and youth with psychological issues... Why it's the thing that's worth the most having lost 3 friends to suicide omong other reasons.

So next time you want to paint me as the hypocrit you could ask what I do spend my money and spare time on.

 

[WhoosierGirl]

He has no right to deny me healthcare (and yes @WhoosierGirl ) unless he can find medical reasons not to do so.

A private practice physician DOES NOT have to see you, he/she has every right to chose not to see you. He/She only has to see you if you require immediate emergency care.

A physician can chose not to see you for anything ranging from not having time for an appointment, not feeling they can not help you with your problem or because they don't like your attitude.

Healthcare and Emergency care are not the same.

 

[Mr Tree]

A private practice physician DOES NOT have to see you, he/she has every right to chose not to see you. He/She only has to see you if you require immediate emergency care.

A physician can chose not to see you for anything ranging from not having time for an appointment, not feeling they can not help you with your problem or because they don't like your attitude.

Healthcare and Emergency care are not the same.

Ok what I try to say is 'a doctor should not have the right to choose his patients unless the patient is doing things that are illigal, some of those things are harrasment or beeing aggressive. A doctor should not have the right to not give servoce to someone because the he dislikes the patient or his racial, sexual or political orientation.'

If in your country doctor do have this right to discriminate I feel sad for you and your fellow citizens. Discrimination should not be tolerated...

I hope my point of view is a little bit more clear. I geuss you still disagree and if so why?
Why do we need to tolerate discrimination?

 

[Danoff]

I need to get this of my chest hefor I read your post further...
I told you if yoy don't understand the system I am advocating ask for clarification. So far you've been nothing but a troll (and that's beeing nice because I havr other word in my mind) arguing against something I do not believe in...... Are you just insane?

So, it's pretty easy to get into personal attacks when talking about subjects like healthcare, religion, and all of the various sensitive topics that we discuss here in the opinions forum. I know it's hard to hold back from calling people insane, or acquiescing to the urge to dismiss people or arguments emotionally. I'd urge you to avoid doing that, not just because it'll keep you from getting in trouble with the moderators here, but also because it will help you actually take something away from this discussion. And I assume that you want to take something away from this, because otherwise why bother to be here in the first place?

Explain how the same service for diffrent people can cost a diffrent amouny of money?

Well, let's start with an example. I get a certain amount of service from my government, I pay approximately 10 times as much for that service as would be appropriate given my apportionment of the US government budget over the US adult population, and approximately 7 times as much for that service as would be appropriate given my apportionment over the US taxpaying population. That was last time I checked, it has gone up since. So I do know something about being charged extra for the same exact thing as someone else. Obviously that's not appropriate for the government to do, because human beings have a right to equal protection of the law, but it is an example.

I used to have a credit card for a particular department store. When I bought enough from that department store, they would give me benefits corresponding to reduced-cost services. So at that point, based on my history with that company, I was being charged less than others for the same service. Sometimes companies will offer discounts based on your patronage of other companies, such as if you're a AAA member, you might get discounts at hotels that do not belong to AAA, but do offer a discount to that group.

In the US, there is something called a Senior Citizen Discount, which is age-based discriminatory pricing. Similarly, many companies offer discriminatory pricing for young children. You could argue that those are based on the fact that children of those ages will cost less in services. That's probably incorrect actually, but regardless, it does not apply to senior citizens.

In the US, a lot of bars have Ladies' Night, which is gender-based discriminatory pricing.

There are also behavioral discounts, where customers are asked to do something, such as "wear a t-shirt with a star on it, get $5 off". Movie stars or other celebrities often get things for free, or at a deep discount as well.

There are, of course, other ways that the same service can cost different amounts of money just based on how you want to pay for that service. Sometimes there is an upcharge for paying with a credit card, or you may pay extra if you choose to borrow the money you want to use to pay for something. These are examples of "extra services" though, in a way, because the same, or another, company is providing you with the additional service of accepting credit cards or loaning money. So that's not really a good example, but I think it's important to keep in mind that there are many ways to pay extra for the same thing.

So let me ask you, do you think it would be appropriate for a Women's University to only offer tuition scholarships to women? What about people with high IQ?

The bottom line here is that it is common, ubiquitous even, for the same services to cost different people different amounts of money. In many cases, due to personal attributes that they do not have control over.

No i deferentiate healthcare because a doctor has an 'office' I can go to as a client if he's open.

In the US, doctors can refuse new patients.

He has no right to deny me healthcare (and yes @WhoosierGirl ) unless he can find medical reasons not to do so.

Actually... doctors do have a right to deny you healthcare. To say anything else is to say that you have the ability to force them to offer you healthcare, which is immoral, you cannot compel someone to do something for you (don't confuse contractual obligations with this). You're confused about the nature of rights, and you're not alone. But your particular needs do not confer on you a right to demand that someone else provide you with those needs (that is slavery).

They can't fully choose their income but have large amounts of freedom considering it...

A degree of choice does not change the principle here.

In other words I'm asking a doctor to do his job, wow what a weird concept...

You're not asking, you're advocating forcing. Specifically, you're advocating forcing someone to do a job that you have defined for them. This is immoral.

I know the system is a but more complex then how I phrased it, but the system sure as hell doesn't work as the system @Danoff is trying to put down..

I understand that your country's particular system is different from what I am talking about. I'm talking about human rights and morality. There will be many countries that choose to violate those.

A private practice physician DOES NOT have to see you, he/she has every right to chose not to see you. He/She only has to see you if you require immediate emergency care.

I believe you're talking about the US in particular, rather than a general principle that applies to everyone. Which is fine, that just wasn't clear from this post. Just trying to prevent confusion.

Why do we need to tolerate discrimination?

What's your definition of tolerate? Because allowing someone to have a discriminatory policy legally, such as a senior citizen discount, does not mean that people have to like it, and it does not mean that customers cannot refuse to give their patronage to a company that offers such a discriminatory policy. If, by "tolerate", you mean why should discrimination be legal, the answer is because it would be a violation of human rights, and immoral, to render it illegal to discriminate... which is the case in the US btw, many forms of discrimination have been made illegal here.

 

[WhoosierGirl]

Ok what I try to say is 'a doctor should not have the right to choose his patients unless the patient is doing things that are illigal, some of those things are harrasment or beeing aggressive. A doctor should not have the right to not give service to someone because the he dislikes the patient or his racial, sexual or political orientation.'

If in your country doctor do have this right to discriminate I feel sad for you and your fellow citizens. Discrimination should not be tolerated...

I hope my point of view is a little bit more clear. I geuss you still disagree and if so why?
Why do we need to tolerate discrimination?

Doctors (and us Nurses) do not have the right to discriminate based on a patient's racial, sexual or political orientation. They do have the right to choose who they care for though, these are two different things. If you as a patient can prove that the doctor discriminated against you he/she would have a case against them.

 

[Joey D]

You realise the doctor kind of descides how much money to ask?

They don't set their prices. As @WhoosierGirl pointed out a lot of it has to do with insurance companies. But prices also come from the billing folks in a healthcare system. Where I work we have a huge team of people to figure out the best way to make money and what to charge people. We even have the ability to grant discounts if need be.

Also, I've been in healthcare for 7 years now. I've seen doctor's deny care to patients for a number of reason, the main one being that they are drug seekers looking for narcs. The second most common reason is the inability to show up for appointments. Patient's can be dismissed from a practice for a ton of different reasons and it's all perfectly reasonable.

 

[Mr Tree]

So, it's pretty easy to get into personal attacks when talking about subjects like healthcare, religion, and all of the various sensitive topics that we discuss here in the opinions forum. I know it's hard to hold back from calling people insane, or acquiescing to the urge to dismiss people or arguments emotionally. I'd urge you to avoid doing that, not just because it'll keep you from getting in trouble with the moderators here, but also because it will help you actually take something away from this discussion. And I assume that you want to take something away from this, because otherwise why bother to be here in the first place?



Well, let's start with an example. I get a certain amount of service from my government, I pay approximately 10 times as much for that service as would be appropriate given my apportionment of the US government budget over the US adult population, and approximately 7 times as much for that service as would be appropriate given my apportionment over the US taxpaying population. That was last time I checked, it has gone up since. So I do know something about being charged extra for the same exact thing as someone else. Obviously that's not appropriate for the government to do, because human beings have a right to equal protection of the law, but it is an example.

I used to have a credit card for a particular department store. When I bought enough from that department store, they would give me benefits corresponding to reduced-cost services. So at that point, based on my history with that company, I was being charged less than others for the same service. Sometimes companies will offer discounts based on your patronage of other companies, such as if you're a AAA member, you might get discounts at hotels that do not belong to AAA, but do offer a discount to that group.

In the US, there is something called a Senior Citizen Discount, which is age-based discriminatory pricing. Similarly, many companies offer discriminatory pricing for young children. You could argue that those are based on the fact that children of those ages will cost less in services. That's probably incorrect actually, but regardless, it does not apply to senior citizens.

In the US, a lot of bars have Ladies' Night, which is gender-based discriminatory pricing.

There are also behavioral discounts, where customers are asked to do something, such as "wear a t-shirt with a star on it, get $5 off". Movie stars or other celebrities often get things for free, or at a deep discount as well.

There are, of course, other ways that the same service can cost different amounts of money just based on how you want to pay for that service. Sometimes there is an upcharge for paying with a credit card, or you may pay extra if you choose to borrow the money you want to use to pay for something. These are examples of "extra services" though, in a way, because the same, or another, company is providing you with the additional service of accepting credit cards or loaning money. So that's not really a good example, but I think it's important to keep in mind that there are many ways to pay extra for the same thing.

So let me ask you, do you think it would be appropriate for a Women's University to only offer tuition scholarships to women?

The bottom line here is that it is common, ubiquitous even, for the same services to cost different people different amounts of money. In many cases, due to personal attributes that they do not have control over.




In the US, doctors can refuse new patients.



Actually... doctors do have a right to deny you healthcare. To say anything else is to say that you have the ability to force them to offer you healthcare, which is immoral, you cannot compel someone to do something for you (don't confuse contractual obligations with this). You're confused about the nature of rights, and you're not alone. But your particular needs do not confer on you a right to demand that someone else provide you with those needs (that is slavery).



A degree of choice does not change the principle here.



You're not asking, you're advocating forcing. Specifically, you're advocating forcing someone to do a job that you have defined for them. This is immoral.



I understand that your country's particular system is different from what I am talking about. I'm talking about what human rights and morality. There will be many countries that choose to violate those.



I believe you're talking about the US in particular, rather than a general principle that applies to everyone. Which is fine, that just wasn't clear from this post.



What's your definition of tolerate? Because allowing someone to have a discriminatory policy legally, such as a senior citizen discount, does not mean that people have to like it, and it does not mean that customers cannot refuse to give their patronage to a company that offers such a discriminatory policy. If, by "tolerate", you mean why should discrimination be legal, the answer is because it would be a violation of human rights, and immoral, to render it illegal to discriminate.

On my way back home will read the entire post more properly after.

So I'll respond to yout opening statement.
I do not have to resort to calling you a troll if you actually choose to be part of the discussion...

I asked for concrete reasons as I understood the situation was more complex then how I phrased it. So I wanted you to engage in the discussion as to then weed out sooe of the diffrences of opinion.

I wasn't calling your opinion out I was calling out the fact that you didn't give concrete things to give my opinion on.
It also gave you a twisted image of what I believe and made you set up the strawman that me having the right to healthcare/education equals me forcinh a specific person to perform said services.

I think I understand why you look at the things that way. You're look on society wheigs very heavily on personal freedom. Which made you assume I.think any doctor for any illness should help me specifically.

Which is not what I want or believe.
I do think if the situation is lifetreatening and said doctor has the means to save the person he should and if he doesn't punishment is required.
Now saying that having the right to healthcare is the same as making a doctor into a slave is wrong.
I believe it is our right we all have accez to healthcare this does not mean one specific doctor has to serve me...
There is more then one doctor around. So if one has a legitemate reason to not help you you still have other options. So I still don't see how having healthcare as a right comes down to slavery or how that could be immoral?

Doctors (and us Nurses) do not have the right to discriminate based on a patient's racial, sexual or political orientation. They do have the right to choose who they care for though, these are two different things. If you as a patient can prove that the doctor discriminated against you he/she would have a case against them.

No off coarse not and off coarse. This is what I meant but I assumed people realised that as everyone over on my bubble realised that.

They don't set their prices. As @WhoosierGirl pointed out a lot of it has to do with insurance companies. But prices also come from the billing folks in a healthcare system. Where I work we have a huge team of people to figure out the best way to make money and what to charge people. We even have the ability to grant discounts if need be.

Also, I've been in healthcare for 7 years now. I've seen doctor's deny care to patients for a number of reason, the main one being that they are drug seekers looking for narcs. The second most common reason is the inability to show up for appointments. Patient's can be dismissed from a practice for a ton of different reasons and it's all perfectly reasonable.

Not fully but some doctors czn set their honourspayment.here in belgium which does give them some control over the price or did I misunderstand said system?

 

[Danoff]

On my way back home will read the entire post more properly after.

So I'll respond to yout opening statement.
I do not have to resort to calling you a troll if you actually choose to be part of the discussion...

I asked for concrete reasons as I understood the situation was more complex then how I phrased it. So I wanted you to engage in the discussion as to then weed out sooe of the diffrences of opinion.

I wasn't calling your opinion out I was calling out the fact that you didn't give concrete things to give my opinion on.
It also gave you a twisted image of what I believe and made you set up the strawman that me having the right to healthcare/education equals me forcinh a specific person to perform said services.

I think I understand why you look at the things that way. You're look on society wheigs very heavily on personal freedom. Which made you assume I.think any doctor for any illness should help me specifically.

Which is not what I want or believe.
I do think if the situation is lifetreatening and said doctor has the means to save the person he should and if he doesn't punishment is required.
Now saying that having the right to healthcare is the same as making a doctor into a slave is wrong.
I believe it is our right we all have accez to healthcare this does not mean one specific doctor has to serve me...
There is more then one doctor around. So if one has a legitemate reason to not help you you still have other options. So I still don't see how having healthcare as a right comes down to slavery or how that could be immoral?

I'll wait for your complete response. I've addressed all of what you wrote above (multiple times). Also, "troll" can be a description of a particular behavior rather than personal insult. "Insane" is used as a personal insult in this context.

 

[Mr Tree]

H

I'll wait for your complete response. I've addressed all of what you wrote above (multiple times). Also, "troll" can be a description of a particular behavior rather than personal insult. "Insane" is used as a personal insult in this context.

I think I've adressed most I'm beeing a bit lazy currently.
My apologies I got the wrong impression after those first posts. As I said I do not want to downplay your opinion. I don't do these discussions with the intent to change your mind but to represent my opinion as good as possible and to learn other and learn from other opions. But to do that I need to know what is your opinion. Something you did clearify in your last posts.

It was indeed the action I referred to and from which I made a wrong assumption of your charachter. Something I shouldn't have done...

So my sincere apologies.

 

[Danoff]

I think I've adressed most I'm beeing a bit lazy currently.
My apologies I got the wrong impression after those first posts. As I said I do not want to downplay your opinion. I don't do these discussions with the intent to change your mind but to represent my opinion as good as possible and to learn other and learn from other opions. But to do that I need to know what is your opinion. Something you did clearify in your last posts.

It was indeed the action I referred to and from which I made a wrong assumption of your charachter. Something I shouldn't have done...

So my sincere apologies.

It seems like further posts are not coming, so I'll go ahead and respond.

I do think if the situation is lifetreatening and said doctor has the means to save the person he should and if he doesn't punishment is required.

And what about your situation right now where you could save someone in a life-threatening situation in some other country. Is punishment required of you? There are malnourished innocent children in Africa, and you could go bring them food. What do you think? Criminal? Why is the doctor situation different?

Now saying that having the right to healthcare is the same as making a doctor into a slave is wrong.

It's not quite the same as making the doctor into a slave, but someone is being made a slave. Whether it's the doctor or a taxpayer, somebody is being forced to provide you with that "right". If the doctor's fees are set by government regulation, and those fees are paid by taxpayers, I can make an argument for both.

So if one has a legitemate reason to not help you you still have other options.

How about a religious objection, is that legitimate? How about if they want to play with their kids right now, is that legitimate? How about if they're on vacation? How about if they don't think you're offering enough money?

 

[Mr Tree]

It seems like further posts are not coming, so I'll go ahead and respond.



And what about your situation right now where you could save someone in a life-threatening situation in some other country. Is punishment required of you? There are malnourished innocent children in Africa, and you could go bring them food. What do you think? Criminal? Why is the doctor situation different?



It's not quite the same as making the doctor into a slave, but someone is being made a slave. Whether it's the doctor or a taxpayer, somebody is being forced to provide you with that "right". If the doctor's fees are set by government regulation, and those fees are paid by taxpayers, I can make an argument for both.



How about a religious objection, is that legitimate? How about if they want to play with their kids right now, is that legitimate? How about if they're on vacation? How about if they don't think you're offering enough money?

I'm sorry but your thoughtprocess is destructive and can only lead to anarchy...
The way you deduct everything to the tax and make someone a slave because.... Apparently we pay for thing thru taxes. I love your reasoning let's cut funding to the army...
Let's not invest in roads, schools a justicesystem. Now we come to that right to a fair trial, does this make judges and advocates into slaves? According to you it does. Yet this is a universal human right.

Again your africa analogy is not correct! Saving 'every' life on the earth would entail me giving my life...
Also I chose to invest time and money in other venue's to save peoples lifes. We chose how to save people a'd whe' you become a doctor you've chosen to save people in a medical way...
And the lifes I could save... Like the people I actually try to help with suicideprevention... And no we can't save all... Don't think I don't ****ing hate myself everyday for losing my best friend to this monster. Nice to know some person on this forum can show me I've been investing time in the wrong things and should've invested time in africa...

If that doctor doesn't help you go to the next one...
If that doctor doesn't help you for religious reasons... What would those be? All I can see semi-legitimate is refusing an abortion (like the 17yearold in america is right kow because she's illigal. I'd sign up for the army today if we invaded meurica at the moment...

Other religious reasons, he'd not want to help someone because they're gay? Wel file a complaint for discrimination against that doctor and make sure they take away his liscense... You know because he discriminates.

I'm probably not going to answer no more. You've fallen back into the let's pull everything by it's hair analogies instead of actual to the point rebuttals. The fact that you have to resort to these so far stretched analogies that would basicly strip every human right in favout of personal freedom, shows you have little or kothing to stand on... Your worldciew woyld inevitably lead to something very diffrent from the democratic states with a justice systel we know now. More toward something like an arachy or dictatorship.

I am wondering why you would find it so repulsive to make this a human right, while it has been explained multiple times why no one would be a slave... Unless we follow you defenition of a slave which contains a doctor following the law and not beeing allowed to refuse service to someone just because, a 'normal' doctor (the ones you gonto to get a flu diagnosis) only beeing allowed to ask 50€ for a 10minute visit... It also contains people who are forced to pay taxes to make sure we have the resources to provide certain rigts... What's not a slave in your opinion?

Please define what a slave is for you because currently it only looks like you're using it as a buzzword so the meurica section can be proud of it's so special 'freedom' (****ing belgium has freedom mate) at least in my country people don't die because a doctor is a religious biggot or because the patient can't pay it's medical costs.... (Althoug sadly there are exeptions to that in belgium too)

 

[Omnis]

The level of thought on this board used to be a league or two higher than this thread. This is like peewee stuff.

 

[ryzno]

I'd sign up for the army today if we invaded meurica at the moment...

Would you REALLY sign up???
I agree with you sometimes, but at 14, I don't think you know exactly what you would get yourself into.
What has America done to you may I ask?

 

[Mr Tree]

Would you REALLY sign up???
I agree with you sometimes, but at 14, I don't think you know exactly what you would get yourself into.
What has America done to you may I ask?

Ever considered I'm not honnest about my age due to privacy reasons?

And what has america done to me personally? Not much.
But they've lit the middle east on fire, they store nukes in my country, they have laws that allow religious biggotry, they're not able to educate their populus enough to understand the diffrence between socialism and communism, they haven't been able to educate the populus enough to understand why trump.is an idiotic idea and yes meurica voting in trump has effect on a world stage of politics and I might not have the righ to vote for their president I'm at least going to let my voice be heard considering is assenine idea's that could affect many, meurica currently has a president that has no understanding of diplomatic relations putting the citizens of both South-Korea and Japan in direct danger, they have a populus that thinks they can't have singlepayer healthcare nor tuitionfree college while spending more on defense then the next 26biggest defense spenders in the world 25 of which are alies of the USA, ...

Those are just a few reasons...
But it basicly boils down to: the USA is currently the biggest threat to worldpeace...

The level of thought on this board used to be a league or two higher than this thread. This is like peewee stuff.

With all due respect feel free to chip in give your opinion and teach us...
I have still a lot to learn and lots of opinions to form and adapt I can honnestly accept that. As is your post just is kind of redundant...

 

[mustafur]

So your a Socialist eh?

So your right up with what Venezuela is about, they even seized the means of production, and don't protect private property rights(instead take when it comes to businesses).

But let me guess your idea of socialism is the capitalist Scandinavian countries that still protect private property rights?

 

[UKMikey]

Ever considered I'm not honnest about my age due to privacy reasons?

English may not be your first language but your spelling is frankly the worst I've ever seen on this board. Not sure whether this has anything to do with your age but frankly it's not helping you put your points across very well, as it distracts the reader from what you're trying to say.

I don't buy that autocorrect is causing you to spell the same word correctly in an identical fashion (eg "honestly") multiple times within the same post. Instead, it suggests that you don't know how to spell the word in the first place and are unable to spot the mistake.

Admittedly some of us to whom English is supposed to be our first language aren't perfect ("you're" is spelt with an apostrophe) but sloppy and careless posts tend to make the reader lose interest.

 

[Mr Tree]

So your a Socialist eh?

So your right up with what Venezuela is about, they even seized the means of production, and don't protect private property rights(instead take when it comes to businesses).

But let me guess your idea of socialism is the capitalist Scandinavian countries that still protect private property rights?

No I'm not right up there with what Venezuala is doing...

Yes I believe in system where we still have private property.
Socialism is a 'patch' for rampant capitalism.

Having no private owned property is a part of a communistic philosophy...

Socialism is a hybrid between capitalism and communism.

But what do you mean to imply with said post?

English may not be your first language but your spelling is frankly the worst I've ever seen on this board. Not sure whether this has anything to do with your age but frankly it's not helping you put your points across very well, as it distracts the reader from what you're trying to say.

I don't buy that autocorrect is causing you to spell the same word correctly in an identical fashion (eg "honestly") multiple times within the same post. Instead, it suggests that you don't know how to spell the word in the first place and are unable to spot the mistake.

Admittedly some of us to whom English is supposed to be our first language aren't perfect ("you're" is spelt with an apostrophe) but sloppy and careless posts tend to make the reader lose interest.

I don't use the phones autocorrect, that would be awefull to read, it beeing dutch

I'll try to at least make less typo's as I can admit it beeing distracting. (My big thumbs are the issue here )
All and all fair post, and I try to use the correct your/you're so if I made that one, honnest mistake due to typing to fast.

Now I know what the AUP says about spelling but yeah I'm not the language hero not even in my native language. And yes I do make spelling mistakes but the example you give (honestly), I guess I wrote it with two n's multiple times, isn't the word I'm trying to use clear? Isn't that the purpose of language trying to communicate in a way we can understand each other?

Or should I have a dictionary next to me? If that's your opinion fair game, it's in the AUP, I'm just curious how you feel about that.

And it's not my age it's my attitude. I'm honest about that. I'm always typing on my phone and a bit to lazy to check the blatant mistakes (eg chewk instead of check). I'll try and do that more from now on.

Edit: I find it helpfull if people point out spelling mistakes like honestly in a respectfull way. I indeed didn't spot that one and didn't know I was spelling it wrong.
At least now I know and can adapt

 

[polysmut]

Now I know what the AUP says about spelling

It says something about lying too.

Ever considered I'm not honnest about my age due to privacy reasons?

I used to have the wrong age attached to my account. It wasn't meant as a lie, I just didn't see it as important when I first signed up. I sent a message to the site owner (that's Jordan) to let him know & he took the date of birth off my account. I think that option is available at the user's end now, it's either a newer option or I didn't see it at the time.
Have a look for the option so you don't fall foul of the rules. 👍

 

[Danoff]

I'm sorry but your thoughtprocess is destructive and can only lead to anarchy...

Aside from the fact that this is a strawman, does that make it wrong? This is not a substantive response, just fear.

The way you deduct everything to the tax and make someone a slave because.... Apparently we pay for thing thru taxes. I love your reasoning let's cut funding to the army...
Let's not invest in roads, schools a justicesystem. Now we come to that right to a fair trial, does this make judges and advocates into slaves? According to you it does. Yet this is a universal human right.

Fee for service is the broad brush response to this. I will say that I wonder why you think that law must be so complicated that someone cannot receive a fair trial unless they have someone who is a specialist in the law representing them. There is a lot of discussion to be had on this particular topic, the topic of how to provide for law enforcement without violating the rights of the people you're providing law enforcement to. But none of it actually combats what I wrote above, which is that requiring someone to provide you with healthcare (ultimately at gunpoint) is servitude, whether it's via taxation or by punishing a doctor who refuses.

Again your africa analogy is not correct! Saving 'every' life on the earth would entail me giving my life...

Saving any life entails you giving some portion of your life.

Also I chose to invest time and money in other venue's to save peoples lifes. We chose how to save people a'd whe' you become a doctor you've chosen to save people in a medical way...

And you think you can turn that choice into a way to make them criminals for not adhering your demands... for some reason.

And the lifes I could save... Like the people I actually try to help with suicideprevention... And no we can't save all... Don't think I don't ****ing hate myself everyday for losing my best friend to this monster. Nice to know some person on this forum can show me I've been investing time in the wrong things and should've invested time in africa...

I think you're misrepresenting my point. I'm not in Africa after all...

If that doctor doesn't help you go to the next one...

Great.

If that doctor doesn't help you for religious reasons... What would those be?

Whatever their cooky religion says.

Other religious reasons, he'd not want to help someone because they're gay? Wel file a complaint for discrimination against that doctor and make sure they take away his liscense... You know because he discriminates.

...it's his right to discriminate. It's his service you're talking about.

You've fallen back into the let's pull everything by it's hair analogies instead of actual to the point rebuttals.

I'm doing the best I can to explain to you why I think you're wrong.

The fact that you have to resort to these so far stretched analogies that would basicly strip every human right in favout of personal freedom, shows you have little or kothing to stand on... Your worldciew woyld inevitably lead to something very diffrent from the democratic states with a justice systel we know now. More toward something like an arachy or dictatorship.

This is not an actual rebuttal to my point, this is a strawman argument.

I am wondering why you would find it so repulsive to make this a human right, while it has been explained multiple times why no one would be a slave...

Unsuccessfully.

What's not a slave in your opinion?

Innocent human beings that are not forced to provide labor or a labor substitute to another human being. That should be everyone's definition.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ever considered I'm not honnest about my age due to privacy reasons?

Nope, because that would be ridiculous. Claiming to be fourteen if you're an adult is just weird, in my opinion.

 

[mustafur]

If your soo called right requires labour from another human being it's not a right it's not hard to understand.

You have the right to pursue it sure but make another human labour for you, no.

Any clearer yet?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ever considered I'm not honnest about my age due to privacy reasons?

I'd be surprised if you weren't 14 to be honest.

 

[Mr Tree]

Nope, because that would be ridiculous. Claiming to be fourteen if you're an adult is just weird, in my opinion.

I'd be surprised if you weren't 14 to be honest.

Yup like I explained I prefer not to give away my birthday. I've put in 3 random numbers and it happened to be 14... go ahead conspiracy theorists in the end it's just a kid he's foolish...

I'm only 14, ... in this way you dismiss a lot I said as lies,.... As givin the 14years I would not have been able to do those things...

It's condescending, and has no bearing on this discussion it's so off topic and not even relevant for any of this...

I'm wondering what would make me 14 in your opinion?


@Danoff I didn't mean to use the anarchy argument as dismissal... I meant it as I would never go for such a system... Not that you can't, but I do wonder how you would ensure equal oppertunity...

@mustafur I happen to disagree with your premis that payed service is slavery... It would make the word slave a shadow of what it historically had meant.
And in my opinion (so no this is not fact) it's only good for religious biggots who need an escape to look be able to look in the mirror at the end of the day as they now what they are.

Edit: also how is questioning my age because you find my opinion this outlandish any diffrent from me calling someone insane for the exact same reason?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yup like I explained I prefer not to give away my birthday. I've put in 3 random numbers and it happened to be 14... go ahead conspiracy theorists in the end it's just a kid he's foolish...

I'm only 14, ... in this way you dismiss a lot I said as lies,.... As givin the 14years I would not have been able to do those things...

It's condescending, and has no bearing on this discussion it's so off topic and not even relevant for any of this...

I'm wondering what would make me 14...

The massive flaws in logic inherent in your positions aren't limited to the young but are certainly more prevent in that age group.

 

[Northstar]

Claiming to be fourteen if you're an adult is just weird, in my opinion.

Unless you are an undercover cop, I think it goes a little beyond just being weird.

 

[ryzno]

It's condescending, and has no bearing on this discussion it's so off topic and not even relevant for any of this...

The only reason I brought up your age was your post about signing up to fight if your country invaded.
Most people would think it's not a good idea to invade America.
On top of our troops we have the National Guard, Coast Guard etc...
We also have all of our police forces, local, city, Sheriffs, Highway Patrol etc...
Not to mention the largest civilian population of gun owners in the world(correct me if I'm wrong), be it legal or illegal firearms.

Hell one day we were sitting outside talking to our neighbors, joking about ISIS trying to even get into our apartment complex.
While they can come right on in they wouldn't get far. I don't live in the best or worst part of town but it is very shady over here, if you get what I mean.
Most everyone has a gun and you can hear a symphony of guns every other night. They wouldn't have a chance, there are over 1200 apartments here, we ARE the largest complex in Metro Atlanta. You can literally get lost in here if you don't know where you're going and a GPS is useless after you come in the gate entrance.

Anyways, assuming you are 14, one would think you would want to experience sex one time or drive a car that you own. Before you sign up for a death wish...
I'm done until we see if a moderator does anything. But considering your age is possibly a lie, that brings up the question of what else have you said is a lie and I'm still trying to figure out where you are from, what country would be attacking us theoretically?

 

[Mr Tree]

The only reason I brought up your age was your post about signing up to fight if your country invaded.
Most people would think it's not a good idea to invade America.
On top of our troops we have the National Guard, Coast Guard etc...
We also have all of our police forces, local, city, Sheriffs, Highway Patrol etc...
Not to mention the largest civilian population of gun owners in the world(correct me if I'm wrong), be it legal or illegal firearms.

Hell one day we were sitting outside talking to our neighbors, joking about ISIS trying to even get into our apartment complex.
While they can come right on in they wouldn't get far. I don't live in the best or worst part of town but it is very shady over here, if you get what I mean.
Most everyone has a gun and you can hear a symphony of guns every other night. They wouldn't have a chance, there are over 1200 apartments here, we ARE the largest complex in Metro Atlanta. You can literally get lost in here if you don't know where you're going and a GPS is useless after you come in the gate entrance.

Anyways, assuming you are 14, one would think you would want to experience sex one time or drive a car that you own. Before you sign up for a death wish...
I'm done until we see if a moderator does anything. But considering your age is possibly a lie, that brings up the question of what else have you said is a lie and I'm still trying to figure out where you are from, what country would be attacking us theoretically?

It's not that I'm as naive to think we can win. I'm just really disgusted by the actions of the last I don't know, 30years. I know this is not smart but can you understand how the influence of that **** nation is spreading over europe dropping minimum wages below a living wage,... Having people work 2 jobs still can't make ends meat and what is the political reaction? Pull yourself together if you try hard anough everything is possible,...

I myself am ok I actually have a job that pays but I've got friends who work a full time job and barely make ends meat. On top of that they're called lazy and it's their own fault they don't make any money, because the level of education doesn't matter? So yeah it was an irrational post and it's an irrational idea based on anger,...
But it doesn't make me 14,...

I've told you I'm not 14,... But go ahead
Keep saying I am... Maybe one day I'll even believe you,...

I don't need people to agree but when multiple people keep insisting they know my age better then me,...

Well what's the point of it all then, if people even dismis what I say about my age,...

But yeah meurica mates! If you don't agree your 14 and thoughtprocess is inconsistent. Go get yourself an other las vegas,... I'll be sitting here in my logically inconsistent europe laughin...

Bye!

 

[TenEightyOne]

II know this is not smart but can you understand how the influence of that **** nation is spreading over europe dropping minimum wages below a living wage,... Having people work 2 jobs still can't make ends meat

What nation is spreading over Europe? You've rather lost me.

 

[Liquid]

Just on the point about the use of a doctor's labour:

In the United Kingdom, it is legal to receive most types of medical treatment from someone who isn't a qualified doctor of medicine or surgery. What is illegal is someone pretending to being a registered practitioner with the GMC.

So if you were unable to secure the services of any doctors, an unusual scenario if ever there was one, there aren't any legal barriers stopping you from acquiring treatment or consultation elsewhere:

The GMC maintains a register of medical practitioners. However, no law expressly prohibits any unregistered or unqualified person from practicing most types of medicine or even surgery. A criminal offence is committed only when such a person deliberately and falsely represents himself as being a registered practitioner or as having a medical qualification. The rationale of the criminal law is that people should be free to opt for any form of advice or treatment, however bizarre

And as for the costs or the use of the word 'free', the term often referred to when talking specifically about NHS treatment is free at the point of use.