FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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The MR2 touched the grass at 2:53 and nothing happened, and he spun because he was trying to flick it left way too fast and the grass accelerated the issue.

The S2000 left rear is on the grass for a distance and only spun because he kept the throttle down.

The Ferrari gave it too much throttle back on the tarmac, he was straight all through the grass.

The last one he was already losing it before he hit the dirt.

every spin happens for different reason and just somehow grass is involved it doesn't mean it is the cause.
 
1,328
It seems that Amar found those vids.

I'm not sure if I should point point plenty of mistaken statements that have been done in the latest paragraphs, but I will point out something that I found last night, regarding GT4 vs FM3 suspension model:

You see, when I played GT5 and FM3 I could not stop noticing that the movement of the chasis is more noticeable in GT games, and is significantly reduced in FM, even compared to GT4 chasis movement, I can notice the tyre deforming but there is very little movement on the chasis, specially in cars like the Honda NSX in Suzuka, IRL Clarkson vid also supports this by showing the movement of the chasis in Laguna Seca on the NSX, I compare them both(in fact I compare GT4/GT5/FM2/FM3) and the movement of the chasis is really reduced on FM2, even more reduced on FM3, needless to say IRL version was closer to a mid ground between GT5/GT4, this aspect also seems to affect the weight transfer on each game because I was able to spin like Clarkson did on GT5 after going very aggressive in the last corner, and this never happened on FM(in neither).

That is what people say when FM's suspension are too perfect, its both too hard, too critically dampened and the lack of bumps on tracks just worsen the effect. It is almost impossible to get real life damping rates, especially when most cars have progressing damping/spring nowadays, Turn 10 just have to change their approach in making how the car feels.
 
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That is what people say when FM's suspension are too perfect, its both too hard, too critically dampened and the lack of bumps on tracks just worsen the effect. It is almost impossible to get real life damping rates, especially when most cars have progressing damping/spring nowadays, Turn 10 just have to change their approach in making how the car feels.

PD managed this, and just using the car characteristics to write the physics model, something that Turn10 got complete wrong by using the calculation algorithms.
 
1,328
PD managed this, and just using the car characteristics to write the physics model, something that Turn10 got complete wrong by using the calculation algorithms.

Well it's their fourth go at it, I think it will be an improvement, no doubt GT5 has managed it better.
 
4,171
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jdmking13
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PzR Slim
FM3 is one. It simulates power on understeer in fwd cars much better than GT5. And there is no denying it simulates changes in tyre pressure better than GT5. Plenty of things GT5 does better than FM3 in the physics department. But it's impossible to say one is better than the other. They are just different to one another.

I have FM3 and the physics don't match up to GT5 Im sorry. Im also getting tired of people saying if it doesn't do what GT5 does its not right. That's not the case, my problem is when taking a Ferrari out and expecting a real challenge trying to keep the car balanced to get a good experience. It does not happen for me the car feels like im driving a RX-8 on SS. I really like FM3 as game, but the driving has to get better. I don't care about autovista graphic upgrade etc when I play FM4 I will test out a select few of cars to see if the physics are improved that all I care about.
 

VXR

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With real tyre data, I'm sure it'll be harder to control powerful road cars. There has to be a happy medium though, as the R cars are just too snappy imo. Racing cars are designed to be easy to drive after all.
 
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I saw the video of a guy driving a 599 and it looked like the physics improved alot. I saw the car back get loose a couple of times while having to much pressure on the throttle. So as I said only thing I want is better physics.
 

PzR Slim

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I have FM3 and the physics don't match up to GT5 Im sorry. Im also getting tired of people saying if it doesn't do what GT5 does its not right. That's not the case, my problem is when taking a Ferrari out and expecting a real challenge trying to keep the car balanced to get a good experience. It does not happen for me the car feels like im driving a RX-8 on SS. I really like FM3 as game, but the driving has to get better. I don't care about autovista graphic upgrade etc when I play FM4 I will test out a select few of cars to see if the physics are improved that all I care about.

Read what I said again. GT5 does a worse job of simulating power on under steer and changes in tyre pressure. Deny that, particularly the second, and you are blind to the reality of the situation. I did not say FM3 had better physics than GT5. I said that both games do certain things in the physics department better than the other. There can't be and isn't one winner as a result. Deal with it.
 

Zer0

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And what's with the hundreds of times that drivers put one wheel off and, unlike in GT5, nothing happens? :odd:
The argument wasn't that it does not happeen, the argument was that it doesn't seem to happen as often or as easily as it does in GT. That's what I got from t.o.'s post, at least.
As often? if that happen to you a lot then you need to revise what are you doing with the car. Those mistakes often happen when you are pushing the car to the limit with no aids and when the rear tire step on grass and spins while the car is turning.

Is not that the grass automatically make you spin when you run over it.. if you have the skills like in real life you can predict the spin and avoid it or even run over it with not much problem and reenter the track.

I don't know what is the problem, if you expect to play like FM3 obviously you are going to spin a lot but for a reason.


The MR2 touched the grass at 2:53 and nothing happened, and he spun because he was trying to flick it left way too fast and the grass accelerated the issue.

The S2000 left rear is on the grass for a distance and only spun because he kept the throttle down.

The Ferrari gave it too much throttle back on the tarmac, he was straight all through the grass.

The last one he was already losing it before he hit the dirt.

every spin happens for different reason and just somehow grass is involved it doesn't mean it is the cause.
Now try to recreate all those situations in both games an compare the results.
 
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Read what I said again. GT5 does a worse job of simulating power on under steer and changes in tyre pressure. Deny that, particularly the second, and you are blind to the reality of the situation. I did not say FM3 had better physics than GT5. I said that both games do certain things in the physics department better than the other. There can't be and isn't one winner as a result. Deal with it.

I can tell you that understeer is even worse in GT5. I rarely understeer like I do in GT5 in FM3, and I play with no assists. Just drive a TRD Celica in GT5, then you will no understeer. Plus playing with a wheel makes all the difference, power on understeer is a lot more if you don't have the correct wheel input.

But I do agree on the second part, FM3 does a way better job at recreating accurate tire temperature. I think FM3's tire model is way better than GT5's, but we really don't know how GT5 really works with the tire model just yet.
 
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jdmking13
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Read what I said again. GT5 does a worse job of simulating power on under steer and changes in tyre pressure. Deny that, particularly the second, and you are blind to the reality of the situation. I did not say FM3 had better physics than GT5. I said that both games do certain things in the physics department better than the other. There can't be and isn't one winner as a result.8 Deal with it.

1st who said anything about winning, I said as a whole which is what I care about. I don't get into all that winning stuff I play both games with a wheel which im not even sure, most people do on this board. GT5 is the better driving experience period. Im excited for FM4 because I love racing so please stop with this deal with it stuff as if im someone who puts GT5 in a class of its own.
 
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For you maybe, but not for everyone. Not everyone shares the same opinion as you.

I respect that. Let me ask you a question bogie do you own a good wheel for both games? This question is for everyone because we are all debating which is cool, but a problem can occur if we are not on the same page.
 
1,328
Now try to recreate all those situations in both games an compare the results.
Impractical unless you know EXACTLY what differential they are running.

a viscous vs a clutch pack, or 20% of difference in lock will give opposite result.

Actually in touring car racing people setup differentials in account of the chances of running one wheel on the grass, it is pretty much part of the game.
 
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As often? if that happen to you a lot then you need to revise what are you doing with the car. Those mistakes often happen when you are pushing the car to the limit with no aids and when the rear tire step on grass and spins while the car is turning.
There are lots of reasons to put a wheels (or even two) off the track. The point is, even when not pushing the car to its utmost limits, it seems to have a pretty violent effect on the car in GT5.

Not saying that nothing should happen, though. FM3 did downplay that issue, no questions asked, but again, I doubt it should be anywhere near as frequent or violent as it's shown in GT5. From watching real races, it just seems like some situations that went well in real life lead to spinning out in GT5 - that was my impression when playing it, at the very least.


Around the 1 minute mark, you'll see one car going off onto the grass, at high speed, unvoluntarily. From my experience, if this was GT5, he'd have been spinning all of the place with no chance in hell to recover the car.
 
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I respect that. Let me ask you a question bogie do you own a good wheel for both games? This question is for everyone because we are all debating which is cool, but a problem can occur if we are not on the same page.

I have a Turbo S Fanatec (and I still have my MS Wheel). I am thinking about getting the new new official Forza wheel from Fanatec though.
 

PzR Slim

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1st who said anything about winning, I said as a whole which is what I care about. I don't get into all that winning stuff I play both games with a wheel which im not even sure, most people do on this board. GT5 is the better driving experience period. Im excited for FM4 because I love racing so please stop with this deal with it stuff as if im someone who puts GT5 in a class of its own.

Surely if one is better than the other, one wins? If FM3 does some things better than GT5 how can GT5 be better? As I keep on saying neither is the winner because neither beats the other in all departments. Each person has a personal preference but that means jack in reality. Both do a pretty good job of simulating the real world, some prefer one interpretation, some the other. No one is wrong and no one is right.

And just so you know this is my set up so I'm looking for the same experiences as you.

885ebaf3.jpg
 

PzR Slim

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There are lots of reasons to put a wheels (or even two) off the track. The point is, even when not pushing the car to its utmost limits, it seems to have a pretty violent effect on the car in GT5.

Not saying that nothing should happen, though. FM3 did downplay that issue, no questions asked, but again, I doubt it should be anywhere near as frequent or violent as it's shown in GT5. From watching real races, it just seems like some situations that went well in real life lead to spinning out in GT5 - that was my impression when playing it, at the very least.


Around the 1 minute mark, you'll see one car going off onto the grass, at high speed, unvoluntarily. From my experience, if this was GT5, he'd have been spinning all of the place with no chance in hell to recover the car.

Another example.

 
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jdmking13
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I have a Turbo S Fanatec (and I still have my MS Wheel). I am thinking about getting the new new official Forza wheel from Fanatec though.

Same for me man I got a turbo s and im thinking of getting the new one but I also have a g25 and a driving force for GT5 and im waiting for my trs500 my problem with these arguments are people don't have 2wheels one for gt and forza and are making judgments on the physics. Im not dissing controller users because you still can get the sense of the physics but nowhere as a person with a wheel.

Nice set up pzr im very jealous. :lol:
 
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Spagetti69

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Same for me man I got a turbo s and im thinking of getting the new one but I also have a g25 and a driving force for GT5 and im waiting for my trs500 my problem with these arguments are people don't have 2wheels one for gt and forza and are making judgments on the physics. Im not dissing controller users because you still can get the sense of the physics but nowhere as a person with a wheel.

Good point.

It would be nice for peeps to declare what wheels they are using.

Also in GT5 what physics they are using. Apparently online and offline are different physics.

I use a fanatic GT2 for Forza and A g27 for GT.

Both sets of physics have flaws as far as I'm concerned, but hey funny debate none the less.

ZerO what you using fella?
 
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Good point.

It would be nice for peeps to declare what wheels they are using.

Also in GT5 what physics they are using. Apparently online and offline are different physics.

I use a fanatic GT2 for Forza and A g27 for GT.

Both sets of physics have flaws as far as I'm concerned, but hey funny debate none the less.

Good point also bro and honestly I don't expect both games to get it 100% right either. I just wanna get to the closest sensation I can get and right now GT5 gives me that as a whole. I love the FM series the customization are a joy but what kills it for me is the driving experience you get from the game. When I play gt online and people are just hitting the track to test their cars out, and I come out the pits with another car behind me and we both come out hard, it just puts a smile on my face.

Also the g27 is a good wheel but the dfgt gives you better feedback I wish I could use the clutch, the shifter and the pedals from the g27 and use the wheel from the dfgt.
 
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Zer0

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Around the 1 minute mark, you'll see one car going off onto the grass, at high speed, unvoluntarily. From my experience, if this was GT5, he'd have been spinning all of the place with no chance in hell to recover the car.
I don't see the problem with that video, is just a little patch of grass going straight, that situation is very easy to keep under control in GT5 and rarely upset the car.

I have recovered similar much much worse situation and I'm nowhere a pro, this for example in the Prologue:


Another similar example very common in GT5:

[youtubehd]WDvt8DcfBpk[/youtubehd]


ZerO what you using fella?
G25/Fanatec S, GT5 mainly offline but with proper warmed tires I don't find too much differences.
 
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Luminis how much do you play gt5? There has been plenty of times where I hit grass and it upset the car a little. The example im talking about was the nur with the enzo that was ridiculous man you have to admit that. At high speeds hit the grass on the ring most of the time is devastating. That video with the enzo the grass did nothing to his car.
 

Spagetti69

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Luminis and ZerO

What control methods do you use in both games. If you don't mind me being nosey

Oh and you bogey.
 
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Luminis how much do you play gt5?
I played it pretty intensively (offline) for about 2.5 months after released and sold if off thereafter. Used a (used) Driving Force GT for a while, which I sold as well.

There has been plenty of times where I hit grass and it upset the car a little. The example im talking about was the nur with the enzo that was ridiculous man you have to admit that. At high speeds hit the grass on the ring most of the time is devastating. That video with the enzo the grass did nothing to his car.
As I said, FM3 did downplay that stuff. I think I wrote that on one of my last posts here. All I'm saying is, at the time, what happened in GT often felt a lot more violent than what I wiuld've considered realistic from watching real life races.

I don't see the problem with that video, is just a little patch of grass going straight, that situation is very easy to keep under control in GT5 and rarely upset the car.
Here is one example of what I'm talking about. To me, it looks way more violent than what I would expect to happen in dry conditions at relatively low speeds.

 

amar212

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It would be nice for peeps to declare what wheels they are using.

GT3 > Logitech Driving Force
GT4: Prologue / GT4 > Logitech Driving Force Pro
GT5:P > Logitech G25
GT5 > Logitech G25/Fanatec GT2

Forza 2 > Microsoft Force Feedback Wheel
Forza 3> MS FF Wheel/Fanatec GT2

I
Here is one example of what I'm talking about. To me, it looks way more violent than what I would expect to happen in dry conditions at relatively low speeds.

80 MPH (130 km/h) @ 7000 rpm and full throttle on small RWD car with front weight centre. Oh yes, it would spin :)
 
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@ luminis 2months it not enough time bro I just gold challenges that I could not even get silver in when I 1st start playing the game I still have and play my FM3 and learn many new things with both games.
 
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80 MPH (130 km/h) @ 7000 rpm and full throttle on small RWD car with front weight centre. Oh yes, it would spin :)
:lol: I completely overlooked the MPH and assumed km/h.

My bad, then.

@ luminis 2months it not enough time bro I just gold challenges that I could not even get silver in when I 1st start playing the game I still have and play my FM3 and learn many new things with both games.
While I agree that that wasn't enough time to learn everything about GT5, I do think it is a sufficient amount of time to get familiar with the physics. In retrospect, though, I maybe shouldn't have gone with the cheapest wheel solution possible, a used one. Looks like most of you guys preffer different wheels :lol: